Springheel Jack & The Jersey Devil

[NatureBoff]

Springheel Jack is an infamous apparition of horror which has been well documented in Victorian London: Spring Heeled Jack. The red-eyed accounts I saw last night on TV (it being Halloween) reminded me of the picture of the Jersey Devil with it's small wings: Jersey Devil. Could they be similar creatures; beasts which exist in reality? If so, then it ties in with my controversial idea of their ancestry coming from ocean rays that evolved to fly! Sounds rather fanciful, I know. The giant leap and small wings still capable of flight through the water is my guess as to their real identity. (P.S I don't expect anyone to agree with me )

Edited October 31, 2009 by Smugfish

[Danr]

Springheel Jack is an infamous apparition of horror which has been well documented in Victorian London: Spring Heeled Jack. The red-eyed accounts I saw last night on TV (it being Halloween) reminded me of the picture of the Jersey Devil with it's small wings: Jersey Devil. Could they be similar creatures; beasts which exist in reality? If so, then it ties in with my controversial idea of their ancestry coming from ocean rays that evolved to fly! Sounds rather fanciful, I know. The giant leap and small wings still capable of flight through the water is my guess as to their real identity. (P.S I don't expect anyone to agree with me )

One of the problems I have with this theory is that the Jersey devil is always described as having bat-like wings, in other words, tough skin membrane supported and controlled by phalanges, the same can be said for Spring heeled jack's wings, although it seems rare for him to be described this way...Also in general, the two have VERY different appearances, and have no overtly fish-like features...also, I fail to see how rays would be pushed evolutionarily towards land and flight, nor how they would make such a change. Sorry if I sound harsh, I just don't see anything that really backs up your theory.

[draconic chronicler]

Springheel Jack is an infamous apparition of horror which has been well documented in Victorian London: Spring Heeled Jack. The red-eyed accounts I saw last night on TV (it being Halloween) reminded me of the picture of the Jersey Devil with it's small wings: Jersey Devil. Could they be similar creatures; beasts which exist in reality? If so, then it ties in with my controversial idea of their ancestry coming from ocean rays that evolved to fly! Sounds rather fanciful, I know. The giant leap and small wings still capable of flight through the water is my guess as to their real identity. (P.S I don't expect anyone to agree with me )

As the picture shows, the original Jersey devil appears to be a baby dragon, just as the original Chupies, with bat like wings and reptilian bodies. Young dragons are less cautious and eperienced, and therefore seen more frenquently nowadays than the much larger adults. Of course, when the adults are seen, there is less chance of the witnesses living to tell the tale.

[Danr]

As the picture shows, the original Jersey devil appears to be a baby dragon, just as the original Chupies, with bat like wings and reptilian bodies. Young dragons are less cautious and eperienced, and therefore seen more frenquently nowadays than the much larger adults. Of course, when the adults are seen, there is less chance of the witnesses living to tell the tale.

I believe the phrase is Omnomnom?

[NatureBoff]

One of the problems I have with this theory is that the Jersey devil is always described as having bat-like wings, in other words, tough skin membrane supported and controlled by phalanges, the same can be said for Spring heeled jack's wings, although it seems rare for him to be described this way...Also in general, the two have VERY different appearances, and have no overtly fish-like features...also, I fail to see how rays would be pushed evolutionarily towards land and flight, nor how they would make such a change. Sorry if I sound harsh, I just don't see anything that really backs up your theory.

The flying ray idea does require some imagination, I admit. Here's a couple of threads which discuss the possibility: Umboi: Did Rays Evolve The Ability To Fly? and here Umboi: Did Rays Evolve The Ability To Fly? Edited November 3, 2009 by Smugfish

[Agent. Mulder]

the two dont seem remotely related.

ones a guy who jumps high and spits blue flame, the other is a mutated horse bat.

[keithisco]

No threads "discuss the possibility" of ocean rays "evolving" flight. Only the OP. There is no evolutionary imperitive to drive such an evolution, and todays Ocean Rays (if you mean Manta's etc) are at the top of their chain.

You do know that "Flying Fish" DONT actually fly, dont you??? In the same way that breaching the surface of the ocean is not actually flying (ref: Orcas' Tuna, Dolphins).

[+DieChecker]

I think Spring Heeled Jack was just an inventor or criminal crazy of his time.

The Jersey Devil could easily be the same creature as the Mothman and other flying New England Crytos, but I do not think they are flying rays. I would look to mammals and giant birds first.

[Queen in the North]

I think perhaps this thread and the previous thread about flying elasmobranchs could be merged? Before my brain falls out of my ears?

I'd say that the two 'cryptids' are dissimilar.

Edit: one day, one day I will learn to spell.

Edited November 3, 2009 by _Libby

[NatureBoff]

I think perhaps this thread and the previous thread about flying elasmobranchs could be merged? Before my brain falls out of my ears?

I'd say that the two 'cryptids' are dissimilar.

Edit: one day, one day I will learn to spell.

Merging is fine by me.

btw can someone supply a map showing the location of the Jersey Devil sighting? Is it next to a major river or large body of water?

[Blackwhite]

I'm not sure about Springheeled Jack being a similar (or even the same type of) creature as the Jersey Devil, but I know there are some people who believe that Springheeled Jack was also (quite spookily) Jack the Ripper.

Both terrorised Victorian London (Springheeled Jack also terrorised Georgian and Edwardian London). Springheeled Jack mainly attacked women (many women described a man wearing a "goldfish bowl" over his head spitting blue flames who slapped them across the face) and Jack the Ripper only killed women. It is also known that Springheeled Jack did kill a person - a prostitute.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Blackwhite

[Paranormalcy]

I am not aware of SHJ having any such murder attributed to him - the closest I know is that a man fell into the water trying to get away from him, and almost drown, but I don't think he did. I'm curious about this claim about the prostitute. I still think SHJ is entirely unrelated to Jack the Ripper.

[Cynical Sounds]

But spring heel jack didn't have wings? he had a coat or cloak but not wings, In fact in one story he drops the coat and its picked up by an unknown party who follows jack, he's also clearly described as a man of human like where the jersey devil isn't

honestly u might as well say bigfoot and chupacabra are the same because they both have legs

Merging is fine by me.

btw can someone supply a map showing the location of the Jersey Devil sighting? Is it next to a major river or large body of water?

well most of the sightings were in new jersey so there never gonna be more than what 25-30 miles from the atlantic ocean or the delaware river and while the JD as legends of it swimming at bluehole there are more of it flying that swimming

also u know its highly unlikely the JD exists right there is pretty much no photographical and no video evidence and there is a widely held belief that the original story is fictional

Edited November 6, 2009 by Spend

[NatureBoff]

But spring heel jack didn't have wings? he had a coat or cloak but not wings, In fact in one story he drops the coat and its picked up by an unknown party who follows jack, he's also clearly described as a man of human like where the jersey devil isn't

honestly u might as well say bigfoot and chupacabra are the same because they both have legs

well most of the sightings were in new jersey so there never gonna be more than what 25-30 miles from the atlantic ocean or the delaware river and while the JD as legends of it swimming at bluehole there are more of it flying that swimming

also u know its highly unlikely the JD exists right there is pretty much no photographical and no video evidence and there is a widely held belief that the original story is fictional

A few genuine events from a crypto-beast could have triggered a human copy-cat behaviour incidentally. Thanks for the info; there's always a large body of fresh or saltwater mix nearby. You watch out for it when you read any new cases and you'll see what I mean. Also, I bet bluehole is famous for a cave system, right?

Also, check out this account of the JD: Ten Ridiculously Awesome Cryptids. One last thing, didn't the girls account of the owlman at first mention only having one pair of claspers? I think so. Notice the exact connection with strange single tracks of hoofprints which go over walls and fences etc.

If you saw one of these, you'd either p*** your pants or be awesomed out.

Sure, everyone's heard of Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, the Yeti, El Chupacabra, and aliens. But all these undiscovered creatures are boring compared to the following ten real Jimmy Hoffa's of the animal kingdom (and by real, I mean respectable, not that they are more likely to exist or not exist than Nessie). Oh, and this is not in any particular order, despite the fact that they're numbered.

10. The New Jersey Devil

The New Jersey Devil is one of the more skepticism inducing creatures on this list. After all, it is a ****ing kangaroo with hooves, bat wings, a horse/collier head, rat paws, and a hook tail. That, and the fact that the majority of sightings took place at the beginning of the 20th century, back when everybody was paranoid and believed in witchcraft (give or take a few centuries). So it's easy to dismiss the Jersey Devil as either a hoax or a product of mass hysteria. However, let's consider the people who sighted this creature. They weren't crazy paranoid townspeople with pitchforks and torches, nor were they snickering little kids who wanted to **** around with the minds of older people. They were regular everyday dudes, like mailmen, doctors, lawyers, cops (C'mon, you can't not trust a cop!), and... Napoleon's own ****ing brother. That's right, the older brother of the guy who took over all of ****ing Europe encountered the Jersey Devil. He even shot at it, too. The mass sightings of 1909 were also accompanied by lots of missing livestock and hoof shaped trackways in the snow that hopped fences, went up roofs, and started and stopped in the middle of nowhere. The difference between the New Jersey Devil and the other cryptids on this list is that the other creatures (should they exist) are just regular animals (asides from the fact that they've been undiscovered), whereas the Jersey Devil is actually a supernatural ****ing devil thing. Well, having hooves, bat wings, and a diamond tipped tail makes that pretty obvious, but so does its apparent immortality. Like Napoleon's aforementioned shot at the devil. It was reportedly a direct hit, but the little b**** continued flying nonetheless. Somebody once saw the thing fly into live power line, and then continue flying. Somebody else found a skeleton once, too, but nobody really looked into that. If you have a skeleton of what is alleged to be a winged, hoofed demonic freak of nature, I wonder why nobody would bother to study it some more.

There are several variations of the legend of how the Devil came to be, but the general gist is that an eighteenth century woman named Leeds or a woman living in a town called Leeds was pregnant with her thirteenth child, and either she was p***ed off at having so many children and said something along the lines of "May the child be a devil", or conceived the baby with Satan himself (ew). Either way, the point is that she gave birth to a demonic kangeroo with hooves and a horse face which proceeded to fly out the chimney. The lesson here is plain. Don't have sex with the Prince of Darkness.

Also, one farmer once left two dobermans chained up in a shed, and the next morning, he found them both (or rather, pieces of them) several feet away from where they were chained up, and obviously in pieces. And they were big dogs, too. So this Devil ****ed up not one, but two Cujo's. That's scary.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Smugfish

[draconic chronicler]

A few genuine events from a crypto-beast could have triggered a human copy-cat behaviour incidentally. Thanks for the info; there's always a large body of fresh or saltwater mix nearby. You watch out for it when you read any new cases and you'll see what I mean. Also, I bet bluehole is famous for a cave system, right?

Also, check out this account of the JD: Ten Ridiculously Awesome Cryptids. One last thing, didn't the girls account of the owlman at first mention only having one pair of claspers? I think so. Notice the exact connection with strange single tracks of hoofprints which go over walls and fences etc.

It's hard to simply dismiss JD as a hoax when hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people have claimed to see it, including famous military officers. But this is not to say it is the spawn of the devil and woman. People have always needed explanations for the unexplained and in this case the union of a women with the devil was believable in the 18th century. But it certainly could date much earlier, for the native american Piasa has bat wings and a long tail, and is scaly and one example is red as i believe the JD is described being. And if missing cattle were reported with JD sightings, the Piasa was said to snatch up indians, and was intelligent enough to ally with one tribe and pick up of the Chieftains of the opposing force.

But for the same creature to live so long suggests the supernatural, but then, in every corner of the world, large flying 'dragons' are believed to be intelligent and live for centuries, and are often regarded as gods or assistants of gods. To me, the oldest depictions of JD, as the one in the thread is very similar to the classic 'Wyvern' dragon of the Middle Ages, and as 'real' to those people as any wolf or bear.

[Drago]

This should get entertaining. DC and "It's a dragon!" versus Smugfish and "It's a flying ray!"

[Mattshark]

This should get entertaining. DC and "It's a dragon!" versus Smugfish and "It's a flying ray!"

I hate to say this, but DC's argument is actually more intelligent. However, neither are realistic.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Mattshark

[Queen in the North]

This should get entertaining. DC and "It's a dragon!" versus Smugfish and "It's a flying ray!"

I hate to say this, but DC's argument is actually more intelligent. However, neither are realistic.

Shove them into a formal debate and watch the fireworks fly.

[Agent. Mulder]

It's hard to simply dismiss JD as a hoax when hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people have claimed to see it, including famous military officers. But this is not to say it is the spawn of the devil and woman. People have always needed explanations for the unexplained and in this case the union of a women with the devil was believable in the 18th century. But it certainly could date much earlier, for the native american Piasa has bat wings and a long tail, and is scaly and one example is red as i believe the JD is described being. And if missing cattle were reported with JD sightings, the Piasa was said to snatch up indians, and was intelligent enough to ally with one tribe and pick up of the Chieftains of the opposing force.

But for the same creature to live so long suggests the supernatural, but then, in every corner of the world, large flying 'dragons' are believed to be intelligent and live for centuries, and are often regarded as gods or assistants of gods. To me, the oldest depictions of JD, as the one in the thread is very similar to the classic 'Wyvern' dragon of the Middle Ages, and as 'real' to those people as any wolf or bear.

thousands havent claimed to see it. thousands have claimed to have a weird noise they havent heard, or a figure in the dark that looked like something theyre not used to etc.

besdies, what does a high ranking army official have to do with a sighting of a made up creature? his military status lends no credence to the story, as his profession does not warrant him as being an expert on biology.

JD "sightings", if you can call them that, though most arent, are mainly the imagination getting the best of people.

and dont hijack the goddamn thread into one about dragons. Please dont.

[Paranormalcy]

Ahem...

I agree the Jersey Devil reports do bear a strong resemblance to those of the Chupacabra, though I'm not sure about the giant black gray alien looking eyes. I also agree that, while I suppose it might be possible to mistake Jack's cape for wings, it just doesn't seem like that would be a consistent misperceptions - but still, it's trying to explain one phenomenon with another, like UFOs as ball lightning, but more extreme.

[NatureBoff]

Ahem...

I agree the Jersey Devil reports do bear a strong resemblance to those of the Chupacabra, though I'm not sure about the giant black gray alien looking eyes. I also agree that, while I suppose it might be possible to mistake Jack's cape for wings, it just doesn't seem like that would be a consistent misperceptions - but still, it's trying to explain one phenomenon with another, like UFOs as ball lightning, but more extreme.

That's a fair assessment imo. Thanks.

[draconic chronicler]

thousands havent claimed to see it. thousands have claimed to have a weird noise they havent heard, or a figure in the dark that looked like something theyre not used to etc.

besdies, what does a high ranking army official have to do with a sighting of a made up creature? his military status lends no credence to the story, as his profession does not warrant him as being an expert on biology.

JD "sightings", if you can call them that, though most arent, are mainly the imagination getting the best of people.

and dont hijack the goddamn thread into one about dragons. Please dont.

In the particular case, I think it was a full company (200?) on an artillery range who saw it.

I am 'hijacking' nothing. The original picture of the JD, supposedly based on all of those early sightings, resembles a classic "Wyvern" dragon for than anything else. That's just the way it is. Examining the evidence and making the logicl conclusion, does not constitute hijacking.

But the thread itself probably deserves closing, since there is absolutely no resemblance between the human, Sprinheel jack, and the winged creature known as JD that never was described with human characteristics as I recall.

[Cynical Sounds]

A few genuine events from a crypto-beast could have triggered a human copy-cat behaviour incidentally. Thanks for the info; there's always a large body of fresh or saltwater mix nearby. You watch out for it when you read any new cases and you'll see what I mean. Also, I bet bluehole is famous for a cave system, right?

Also, check out this account of the JD: Ten Ridiculously Awesome Cryptids. One last thing, didn't the girls account of the owlman at first mention only having one pair of claspers? I think so. Notice the exact connection with strange single tracks of hoofprints which go over walls and fences etc.

I don't think the blue hole has a cave system I might be wrong tho? I do have to ask don't u think this could be confirmation bias? I mean most habitable areas have some body of water nearby.

I don't think Owlman was never described with claspers, here is the earliest written account I know of of the first sightings.

"During the Easter weekend, the two young daughters of a holidaymaker ... Mr. Don Melling, from Preston, Lancashire ... saw a 'huge great thing with feathers, like a big man with flapping wings', hovering over the church tower at Mawnan (on 'Morgawr's Mile'). The girls ... Vicky, 9, and June, 12 ... were so frightened that the family holiday was cut short by three days".

thats from the Morgawr-the monster of Falmouth Bay by Anthony Mawnan-Peller

Sally Chapman and Barbara Perry are often mistaken as the first sightings but I'm fairly that according to Tony Shiels (the person they spoke to about there experience) the words they used were "its feet were like pincers"

anyway whats the owlman got to do with it, it suppose to look nothing like either the JD or springheel jack

again I have to say the original springheel jack accounts say he looked like a man with angular features there is a distinct lack of cloven hooves, horse/dog head, and WINGS so even if the later reports were a copycat the originals still look nothing like the jersey devil.

[Agent. Mulder]

In the particular case, I think it was a full company (200?) on an artillery range who saw it.

I am 'hijacking' nothing. The original picture of the JD, supposedly based on all of those early sightings, resembles a classic "Wyvern" dragon for than anything else. That's just the way it is. Examining the evidence and making the logicl conclusion, does not constitute hijacking.

But the thread itself probably deserves closing, since there is absolutely no resemblance between the human, Sprinheel jack, and the winged creature known as JD that never was described with human characteristics as I recall.

the logical conclusion is not that a mutant horse bat is a dragon.

and agreed, there are no resemblances between spring heeled jack and the jersey devil.