Has there been any Neanderthal cities or such

[Myles]

I find this topic interesting, so I took the Mods advice and created a new thread.

I'd like to here what people know and think.

Of course with the recent release of the study claiming that most people have Neanderthal DNA in them, there would be structures built by neanderthals in a way. I'm more interested in Neanderthals of past.

[conspiracybeliever]

This is an interesting article. Good comments under the article too:

Well, what do you know... it looks as though Neanderthals in Mediterranean Spain were up to all sorts of interesting stuff ca. 55-50kya! Hot on the heels of the news that ornaments and coloring materials were found in Mousterian deposits at Cueva Anton and

http://averyremoteperiodindeed.blogspot.com/2010/01/neanderthal-wooden-structures-sleeping.html

Edited July 22, 2011 by conspiracybeliever

[Jonnylab]

I find this topic interesting, so I took the Mods advice and created a new thread.

I'd like to here what people know and think.

Of course with the recent release of the study claiming that most people have Neanderthal DNA in them, there would be structures built by neanderthals in a way. I'm more interested in Neanderthals of past.

Is this shows that modern humans have interactions with the Neanderthals?

[Myles]

This is an interesting article. Good comments under the article too:

Well, what do you know... it looks as though Neanderthals in Mediterranean Spain were up to all sorts of interesting stuff ca. 55-50kya! Hot on the heels of the news that ornaments and coloring materials were found in Mousterian deposits at Cueva Anton and

http://averyremoteperiodindeed.blogspot.com/2010/01/neanderthal-wooden-structures-sleeping.html

Pehaps these were the mixed race.

[cormac mac airt]

Pehaps these were the mixed race.

Except, Myles, that what so many people are skipping over in their rush to claims that "Neanderthals are us, we are them" can be seen from the following:

"Dr. Labuda and his colleagues were the first to identify a genetic variation in non-Africans that was likely to have come from an archaic population. This was done entirely without the Neanderthal genome sequence, but in light of the Neanderthal sequence, it is now clear that they were absolutely right!" adds Dr. David Reich, a Harvard Medical School geneticist, one of the principal researchers in the Neanderthal genome project.

Non-Africans Are Part Neanderthal, Genetic Research Shows

Which means a genetic variation was identified that may have originated with an older group or groups of humans outside of Sub-Saharan Africa. Later it was determined that Neanderthals shared this variation. What hasn't been shown, to date, is that Neanderthals do so to the exclusion of all other ancient human groups such as Homo heidelbergensis, Denisovans, Homo sapiens idaltu, the lines responsible for the Omo 1 & 2 finds and the line responsible for the Gawiss cranium just to name a few. It's also been shown that some Melanesians show a greater genetic relationship to Denisovans than to Neanderthals. This also puts a bit of a damper on the "we are Neanderthals, they are us" idea.

Ancient Denisovans and the human family tree

As to your original question, there's currently no evidence to suggest that Neanderthals ever made it past their Stone Age technologies. They definitely didn't make it to the point of significant agricultural and animal domestication, both of which are necessary for a non-nomadic group of peoples to flourish enough to create a true city.

cormac

[Abramelin]

I think their 'cities' were called caves.

Now some may think that is't much of a city, but there are caves that are quite huge.

[+DieChecker]

As to your original question, there's currently no evidence to suggest that Neanderthals ever made it past their Stone Age technologies. They definitely didn't make it to the point of significant agricultural and animal domestication, both of which are necessary for a non-nomadic group of peoples to flourish enough to create a true city.

cormac

Good arguements Cormac. I'm siding with you in this debate.

[Coyote Speaks]

There have been burial sites found that can be argued to show some afterlife belief (i.e. some paint pigments on the body, some buried with various tools, etc.) Recent research shows that they had the possibility for language, although not one as complex as what homo sapiens use.

[Abramelin]

There have been burial sites found that can be argued to show some afterlife belief (i.e. some paint pigments on the body, some buried with various tools, etc.) Recent research shows that they had the possibility for language, although not one as complex as what homo sapiens use.

Genetics has shown us Homo Sapiens Sapiens interbred with Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis regularly.

Four percent of our (Eurasian) genetic make-up came from these Neanderthals.

I think the socalled 'modern humans' thought these Neanderthal women looked gorgeous enough to get laid with.

They talked, they argued, they disagreed, they fought, they traded, and so on.

Forget about the nerds that tell you these Neanderthals could not speak as we do.

I am convinced they could.

[ShadowSot]

Well, it may have just been different. Sometimes that gets forgotten.

[cormac mac airt]

Genetics has shown us Homo Sapiens Sapiens interbred with Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis regularly.

Four percent of our (Eurasian) genetic make-up came from these Neanderthals.

I think the socalled 'modern humans' thought these Neanderthal women looked gorgeous enough to get laid with.

They talked, they argued, they disagreed, they fought, they traded, and so on.

Forget about the nerds that tell you these Neanderthals could not speak as we do.

I am convinced they could.

No, it suggests what 'may' have happened. But if you read Post #5 I think you'll see why this isn't as cut-and-dried as many would like to think.

cormac

Edited July 24, 2011 by cormac mac airt

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I agree with Abramelin. They have cities. Caves.

Here is recent article. It is prooven. Human have had sex with neanderthals.

http://www.livescience.com/15196-dna-evidence-neanderthals-sex-humans.html

I was thinking, maybe humans were dominant and took neanderthals as slaves. Maybe in moments of lust humans interbreed with neanderthals. Just speculating.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

It's also been shown that some Melanesians show a greater genetic relationship to Denisovans than to Neanderthals. This also puts a bit of a damper on the "we are Neanderthals, they are us" idea.

True, I read recently about it. That is interesting.

Edited July 24, 2011 by the L

[Four Winds]

What is the offically accepted date for the last of the Neanderthals? I don't think we were even creating cities way back then.

[broke]

read Stan Gooch. seriously,he knows what's up i think his book is called "Cities of dreams" it'll change your outlook

Edited July 24, 2011 by broke

[Swede]

What is the offically accepted date for the last of the Neanderthals? I don't think we were even creating cities way back then.

In this you would be correct. Up until quite recent history, the accepted latter dates for the presence of the Neanderthals were circa 26kya - 30kya. Advanced radiocarbon research is indicating a late date of circa 39kya as per the reference recently provided by cormac:

http://www.nytimes.c...rthal.html?_r=4

In either case, these dates precede any documentation for cities as they are generally defined.

Edit: Grammer.

.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Swede

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I wonder did Hobbits done cities? I heard that they lived to 18000 BC. That is earliest evidence of hobbits bone. Who knows maybe they survive 10 000 years more...

[Ashotep]

I have heard that Neanderthals disappeared within 5000 years of modern man showing up. This may be far fetched but I was wondering if these sightings of big foot my be Neanderthals.

[Abramelin]

I have heard that Neanderthals disappeared within 5000 years of modern man showing up. This may be far fetched but I was wondering if these sightings of big foot may be Neanderthals.

Neanderthal DNA shows up in the DNA of modern humans.

And Neanderthals were shorter than modern humans.

From the reconstructions scientists made using the skulls of these Neanderthals they don't look anything as ape-like as what people say Bigfoot looks like.

And if what they say about of Bigfoot is true, not even the most horniest guy will want anything to do with a female Bigfoot, lol.

Do female gorillas look sexually attractive to you??

[cormac mac airt]

I have heard that Neanderthals disappeared within 5000 years of modern man showing up. This may be far fetched but I was wondering if these sightings of big foot my be Neanderthals.

Doubtful considering the term "Big Foot" would apply to North America and the only evidence for ancient humans here (Homo sapiens sapiens) would put them at c.20,000+ years after Neanderthals went extinct.

cormac

[Swede]

I wonder did Hobbits done cities? I heard that they lived to 18000 BC. That is earliest evidence of hobbits bone. Who knows maybe they survive 10 000 years more...

L - H. Floresiensis would appear to date to at least 94 kya. While conservative dating places the survival of the species to at least as late as 17 kya, there are indications that the species could have survived until 13 kya. Based upon the current recoveries, cranial capacity, and the quite basic lithic technology utilized by the species, there is little likelihood that the species ever developed a culture that would be capable of the attributes required to be involved in the construction of cities.

Some general background information:

http://www.primates.com/homo-floresiensis/index.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/flores.html

http://humanorigins.si.edu/research/asian-research/hobbits

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110105/full/news.2011.702.html

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0040440

.

[lightly]

Neanderthal DNA shows up in the DNA of modern humans.

And Neanderthals were shorter than modern humans.

From the reconstructions scientists made using the skulls of these Neanderthals they don't look anything as ape-like as what people say Bigfoot looks like.

And if what they say about of Bigfoot is true, not even the most horniest guy will want anything to do with a female Bigfoot, lol.

Do female gorillas look sexually attractive to you??

... ... especially ones with really BIG feet.

.. seriously though.. our image of Neanderthal seems to be evolving into one of a more socially and culturally complex being? .. not quite city statesmen yet though.

[Blackwhite]

Neanderthals lived mostly in Europe from about 130,000 years ago until at least 29,000 years ago.

They did build structures out of wood, mammoth bone and animal skins.

A Neanderthal hut found in Kiev, Ukraine.

An example of this is at the French site of Terre Amata, which is 400,000 years old. These huts were extremely large, measuring to up to about twenty-five feet long and more than twelve feet wide (Tattersall 1995). In the inside of the hut, archaeologists found a fireplace, a hearth, numerous stone tools, and broken animal bones. Very few of the fauna found suggested that perhaps this could have been a butchering site.

Terre Amata

Neandertals also built structures within their caves. At Bruniquel, in southern France, "several hundred meters from the cave entrance is a complex quadrilateral structure constructed from stalactite and stalagmite," dating back to 47,600 years ago. This was recently discovered along with burnt bear bones (Balter 1996:449). Not much is known on this finding yet, but it is hoped that it will shed new light on Neandertal communication and use of fire.

http://www.roebuckclasses.com/101/Lectures/prehistory/humanorigin/neandertalstuff.htm

Edited July 26, 2011 by Blackwhite

[Swede]

Neanderthals lived mostly in Europe from about 130,000 years ago until at least 29,000 years ago.

They did build structures out of wood, mammoth bone and animal skins.

A Neanderthal hut found in Kiev, Ukraine.

An example of this is at the French site of Terre Amata, which is 400,000 years old. These huts were extremely large, measuring to up to about twenty-five feet long and more than twelve feet wide (Tattersall 1995). In the inside of the hut, archaeologists found a fireplace, a hearth, numerous stone tools, and broken animal bones. Very few of the fauna found suggested that perhaps this could have been a butchering site.

Terre Amata

Neandertals also built structures within their caves. At Bruniquel, in southern France, "several hundred meters from the cave entrance is a complex quadrilateral structure constructed from stalactite and stalagmite," dating back to 47,600 years ago. This was recently discovered along with burnt bear bones (Balter 1996:449). Not much is known on this finding yet, but it is hoped that it will shed new light on Neandertal communication and use of fire.

http://www.roebuckcl...dertalstuff.htm

An interesting reference, but it would appear that there are some problems with Paul Roebuck's presentation. It should be noted that this period of history/research is not Roebuck's forte. For example, the Kiev mammoth bone structure has an attributed date of 15 kBP. This is, of course, inconsistent with current understandings regarding the survival of H. neanderthalensis.

In actuality, the Upper Paleolithic mammoth bone structures are associated with H. sapiens sapiens circa 26 kBP to 12/13 kBP.

The following article with Olga Soffer may be of interest:

http://csfa.tamu.edu/mammoth/issues/Volume-02/vol2_num4.pdf

You may also find the following pdf to be of interest:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sovraintendenzaroma.it%2Fcontent%2Fdownload%2F4802%2F62497%2Ffile%2F280_283.pdf&rct=j&q=kiev%20ukrain%20mammoth%20bone%20structures&ei=Ok8vTr2iCsOOsALAi7VH&usg=AFQjCNFRvKsvhYp0VoZ5AeBcJ27zCEfc7A&cad=rja

Am away from home base conducting field research (yet again!), but can provide information regarding Klein's research at a later date if desired.

.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

a culture that would be capable of the attributes required to be involved in the construction of cities.

I know.I speculate.You know I like wierd ideas.

Thanks Swede. You are very usefull as always.