The right to bear arms....

[The Unseen]

I am as American as they come, an believe that every American who by law is allowed to own a gun should, there is no shame in owning a gun, i teach my kids how to use all the guns i own, they know how to shoot, clean, take apart, sight most of them and they also know when and when not to use them, EDUCATION is the word most are forgetting to use, i educate my children about the negatives and positives of having a firearm. Most of the people who use guns to do harm to others either get them illegally or obtain them under false pretenses.

Guns are not the enemy....

Yes you too are right the real problem is not many people have gun EDUCATION,its needed to prevent mishaps and deaths,GUNS ARE NOT THE ENEMY.

[Guardsman Bass]

Fluffybunny,

I'm not arguing against the necessity of you possessing a gun for safety, nor am I arguing against all guns in general. I simply believe that handguns ought to be banned from being sold in gunshops to private citizens. As I mentioned in my earlier post, they are used as the murder weapon in a huge number of homocides every years, and as the link I posted earlier to a USDoJ study shows, they've been growing both in total numbers and as a percentage of homocides.

More specifically, would it have made a difference to the robbers had you been pointing a Twelve-Gauge Shotgun at them instead of a pistol? It's important because, as I linked to earlier, shotguns are used in a far smaller number of homocides.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Guardsman Bass

[The Unseen]

Was that "wanna be American" thing directed at me? If so then one question I have to ask is why the hell would I want to be an American? For those cherished and worshiped rules that are still unquestionable even after over 200 years?

I do, its called a bullet through the brain of an innocent person.[

Your right, a knife or a steel pipe can kill, but they have uses outside the field of killing too. All guns do is make killing faster and easier.

Hmm...who is sounding more like a tyrant:"If guns weren't allowed then they would lose their own purpose" or "Jail anyone who has a different opinion!!!"

Every man and woman shouldn't have that burden. If police forces did their job correctly, which makes it more difficult when everyone owns a frigging gun, then you wouldn't have the burden. Which they are doing, tell me the last time someone tried to kill you and your gun saved you. And tell me, how do you define "good folk" from "bad folk"? Many "bad folk"s appear to be "good folk"s. Or vise versa.

Every American has the right to a gun. That way, they can go POW and shoot someone who they think is a "bad folk". That way all the "good folk" can live in peace and harmony, when each and every "good folk" has the potential to kill another "good folk".

Mr moe this question was not directed at you in anyway,sorry for your conffusion,no harm ment,peace out.

[Michelle]

I can't hide a shotgun in my fanny pack when I'm in the woods, in the middle of nowhere, when a pistol has gotten me far enough away from would be assailants to get into my truck and leave.(I'm talking people that would've made great extras in Deliverance.) The only 'force' out there are park rangers...one per about 50 square miles....while I was at least ten miles from the nearest road.

I've had several police officers ask my husband and I if we have a gun so we can have it readily available when we lock up the business at night.

[The Unseen]

The US is anything but safe, and the Brits are not the concern.

We do not have a government that we can trust to take care of our every need and need to be self sufficient in many ways. I will give you a couple of examples of a long laundry list of reasons why we need to take care of ourselves and our families.

I live in a very rural area; approximately 10 miles outside of a small town on a nice river. Just like many places all over the world, we have problems with folks who are addicted to drugs who turn to a life of crime to support their habit. Breaking into homes with a group of people to take what they can to sell for their next drug fix. When they get desperate they tend to get violent. So here I am in a rural area which has a 25 minute law enforcment response time on a good slow day...I am sleeping in my bed to be awakened to the sound of my living room window being pried open. I hear folks climbing into my home about 10 feet from where my bed is; several people. They are 10 feet away, tweaking on meth ready to kill for the next fix...the police are 25 minutes away. How should I pass the time? What should I do while they decide to try and kill me or rape my wife? It is all too common here as it is in so many places in the world. Am I supposed to use a steak knife to take on 5 hopped up addicts who are likely to be armed?

No, sorry I am not about to allow anything bad happen to myself, my family, my pets, or my property. Unless the sheriffs department wishes to put a sub station in my garage, I cannot depend on them to help me for 25 minutes. I can assure you that 25 minutes is a long time when you have people breaking into your home.

There are a lot of people who are pacifists who are not willing to harm others; I am not one of those people. I have absolutely no qualms about being as violent as need be to protect who and what I love. Life is precious and I would not condone people killing indescriminately, but there are times when folks are in a position that they have no other choice but to defend themselves with force. I have had to do it a few times and I simply make it clear to folks that have broken into my home that I have a very large gun that I am very talented at wielding and have absolutely no moral indecision when it comes to using it in my own defense. I can take care of myself and my family with as much force as need be and sleep rather well when the day is done. In the case that I speak of the folks that broke into my home(four of them) were all violent offenders with long histories of breaking into peoples homes and hurting people to get money. I had to hold them at gunpoint for over 30 minutes waiting for the sheriff to show up. I cant do that with a knife or a baseball bat. With a nice pistol I can, and have.

Another case; I am sitting in my living toom watching TV...I all of a sudden hear breaking glass in my kitchen. I run into the room to find a black bear doing its' best in order to crawl through the window over my sink to get to the food on the counter. Throwing a few pots and pans at a bear does little to change their dinner plans(so I found). Can I use a steak knife against a bear? I am not going to try it...baseball bat...pepper spray? no, not really. Do you know what works well on bears hell bent to get into your home and eat you/pets/leftovers? a 30-30 Winchester does the trick and provided a couple hundred pounds of meat to our local food bank to boot.

I often hear folks on this forum talk about the fact that we are safe now and don't need weapons. I get the feeling that the folks that say that live in a decent area with minimal crime, good police presence, with no wildlife to be concerned of, or worries about being able to feed their family...With a stable dependable government that provides well in the case of large emergencies. Very little of the US fits that description. Many many people in the US have to take care of themselves in most cases and guns help to do that.

You may not like, want, or need guns and that is your right. However your situation is not mine and people who wish to take guns away from law abiding citizens are imposing their beliefs in a fashion that is not only thoughtless, but unconstitutional as well, and something that many people here take seriously.

If I were to come to your home and take away your automobiles and then tell you that you could not have them anymore because people die in vehicle accidents(regardless of fault), you would be rather unhappy and feeling rather put upon. Cars can be a great benefit and in most cases a necessity to get along in daily life. Believe it or not guns are similar; yes bad things can happen when they are not used in a safe manner and people can be hurt even when they are trying to be safe; accidents happen...Drunk drivers can even kill people who are innocent, but it is best off to put the drunk driver in jail and make sure he never drives again rather than taking away everyones vehicle so that no one gets hurt.

You are mistaken.

Millions of people here still do depend on hunting for food. I think that there are a lot of people that either live in other countries or live in the middle of a large city that do not realize that the entire country is not a large city. I live in a smaller community in a very rural area. Mnay people depend on their yearly dear or elk hunts to provide meat for their family, they buy food at a store of course, but the bulk of their meat is caught in the fall to feed them through the rest of the year. It may be hard to believe but it still is very common.

It is pretty clear you are not fully understanding of the situation that we have here in our country; your experience is very different than mine and it isn't fair for you to pass judgement on what my rights are or should be without having to deal with the ramifications of your wishes.

What are you ? some kinda mind reader? you have used the words that my mind could not use,You said a mouth full and I stand at your side F B, you said everything I could not put in words,KUDOES FB,

[Piney]

I am not saying that I am against guns (how else would I know how to get one?). At this time having one is more problems that it is worth 'cause here in Greece you actually have to pass an aptitude test to have one. (Arms knowledge, shooting proficiency, psychological evaluation, hunting expertise and so on). And to shoot at the four quails and five hares we have ... guess you get the picture.

My point is that getting armed is only escalating the problem to the point where it won't be the exception that somebody gets killed by a burglar for a few hundred dollars but it will be the rule.

And about the testing, I don't think it is a bad idea, that way at least the incidence of those who shoot their own feet will be minimized.

Before 911 most people who were raised around guns owned them and knew the deal. Then after 911 people who had no experience with them began running out and buying them. That is were you get all these dumb accidents and kids taking them to school incidents from. They should have a safety course. Your right. For a bow hunting license you have to put 3 in the red. You should learn how to handle a gun too.

Lapiche

[questionmark]

I've had several police officers ask my husband and I if we have a gun so we can have it readily available when we lock up the business at night.

You mean they are suggesting that you guys should have an OK coral shoot-out if someone tries to hold you up when closing your business?

[Lizard King]

I own three guns..they're in my safe. What if I just felt like walking into walmart with three pre-loaded guns and shooting the place up. I have enough ammunition to load all all three guns 20 or so more times. The ammo boxes are about 40 pounds each...but I can easily carry 80 pounds around.

Does that not scare anyone?

I'm not saying I will do it, I'm saying that I'm easily able to do it. I'm easily able to take the lives of....6x20=120x3=360 people. THREE-HUNDRED SIXTY PEOPLE. WHAT THE ****!

Thoughts?

Yeah, and I wouldnt be one of those 360, because I have the right to bear arms.

[The Unseen]

Good idea, probably would solve part of the global warming with it.

But speaking of cars, in every country I know you have to pass a test before you are allowed to use one. With a gun all you have to do is walk down to K-mart and put a proof of ID on the table and, bingo, you are a proud gun-owner.

What K-Mart you shopping at?I for one know that you have to fill out the "YELLOW FORM" and it has to be call in and it is up to the "A.T.F.regulated"government that say you can/cant have one,and if they say no ya cant have one,and if you have any kind of Fellonie you are not going to get it and you can expect to have the F.B.I looking at you.

It is a lot harder to get a gun than you think,and if you lie on that YELLOW FORM you stand to be put in jail for a long time.How do I know you ask? I used to sell guns for K-MART,and yes when I called and found that you had a FELLONIE ,I would place a call and watch them come in and take you away.Nuff Said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sirfiroth]

Frogfish,

I'm not arguing against the necessity of you possessing a gun for safety, nor am I arguing against all guns in general. I simply believe that handguns ought to be banned from being sold in gunshops to private citizens. As I mentioned in my earlier post, they are used as the murder weapon in a huge number of homocides every years, and as the link I posted earlier to a USDoJ study shows, they've been growing both in total numbers and as a percentage of homocides.

More specifically, would it have made a difference to the robbers had you been pointing a Twelve-Gauge Shotgun at them instead of a pistol? It's important because, as I linked to earlier, shotguns are used in a far smaller number of homocides.

Then only the criminal will have hand guns.

In Albuquerque the police are concerned because criminals have been breaking into gun shops stealing only police grade handguns. Front Page article this morning.

What do think these criminals are doing with these handguns?

FYI more people are killed with kitchen knives than hand guns, do you want to do away with them also?

[questionmark]

What K-Mart you shopping at?I for one know that you have to fill out the "YELLOW FORM" and it has to be call in and it is up to the "A.T.F.regulated"government that say you can/cant have one,and if they say no ya cant have one,and if you have any kind of Fellonie you are not going to get it and you can expect to have the F.B.I looking at you.

It is a lot harder to get a gun than you think,and if you lie on that YELLOW FORM you stand to be put in jail for a long time.How do I know you ask? I used to sell guns for K-MART,and yes when I called and found that you had a FELLONIE ,I would place a call and watch them come in and take you away.Nuff Said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice conspiracy theory ... but I was never even arrested in my life except for some Franco goons in Spain who got the wrong guy. I would not have to lie on any yellow form.

[The Unseen]

Nice conspiracy theory ... but I was never even arrested in my life except for some Franco goons in Spain who got the wrong guy. I would not have to lie on any yellow form.

Well good for you, Franco goons in spain,HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA,Franco Goons,

[questionmark]

Then only the criminal will have hand guns.

In Albuquerque the police are concerned because criminals have been breaking into gun shops stealing only police grade handguns. Front Page article this morning.

What do think these criminals are doing with these handguns?

FYI more people are killed with kitchen knives than hand guns, do you want to do away with them also?

The problem is that they have the guns anyway. And because they live from the gun they are much more proficient at using them than you are.

What would happen if you got into a ring with a professional boxer? Right he would hammer the living daylight out of you. Why do you suppose that someone professionally using guns would not shoot the living daylight out of you?

Because everybody thinks that handling a gun is easy. It is not. In a stress situation a untrained person is more likely to shoot his own foot, or what is worse, some innocent by-stander than at the actual assailant.

It is not the same to shoot at a deer, bird, pigeon than at a person. Most of us have several mental safeguards to switch off. That is why it does not really matter if you have a gun to "protect"yourself. Against an armed criminal you don't have a chance unless you train five hours a day.

[Moondoggy]

Good idea, probably would solve part of the global warming with it.

But speaking of cars, in every country I know you have to pass a test before you are allowed to use one. With a gun all you have to do is walk down to K-mart and put a proof of ID on the table and, bingo, you are a proud gun-owner.

Not where I live. You have to pass a handgun safety test and a 10 day wait while a federal background check is run. I would like to shop at the K-mart you speak of.

[Stalker]

The problem is that they have the guns anyway. And because they live from the gun they are much more proficient at using them than you are.

What would happen if you got into a ring with a professional boxer? Right he would hammer the living daylight out of you. Why do you suppose that someone professionally using guns would not shoot the living daylight out of you?

Because everybody thinks that handling a gun is easy. It is not. In a stress situation a untrained person is more likely to shoot his own foot, or what is worse, some innocent by-stander than at the actual assailant.

It is not the same to shoot at a deer, bird, pigeon than at a person. Most of us have several mental safeguards to switch off. That is why it does not really matter if you have a gun to "protect"yourself. Against an armed criminal you don't have a chance unless you train five hours a day.

Obviously you don't seem to realize that a smart gun owner who genuinely wants their gun for self-protection can drive out to the nearest public shooting range and practice. Ranges are there for a reason.

[Guardsman Bass]

Then only the criminal will have hand guns.

Maybe - but criminals can get access to weapons banned now via smugglers and other illegal means of purchasing them. Furthermore, I don't think your argument holds water. There was an Associated Press article this morning (Sunday July 15 2007) by David B. Caruso (I hope I have the name spelled right) which pointed out that not only do criminals get most of their weapons from gun shops, but most of them get them from a small number of gun shops. Obviously, if handguns simply weren't available for sale at gun shops, it would make them much more difficult and expensive to get a hold of, and would tend to at least decrease the lethality of your average criminal (as I pointed out in the link in my first post in this thread, a penetrating handgun shot to the chest is far more likely to kill you than a penetrating stab wound to the chest).

In Albuquerque the police are concerned because criminals have been breaking into gun shops stealing only police grade handguns. Front Page article this morning.

Read the above, if only because it proves my point. If these shops simply didn't have handguns for sale, then this wouldn't be as much as a problem.

What do think these criminals are doing with these handguns?

Presumably killing and/or threatening people with them, as the FBI points out.

FYI more people are killed with kitchen knives than hand guns, do you want to do away with them also?

The FBI would disagree with that. According to the FBI link posted above, from 2001-2005, 9,215 were killed using "knives or other cutting instruments" - meaning pretty much anything with a blade. At the same time (2001-2005), 36,799 people were killed with handguns. I'd say the handguns are more lethal, and on top of that, they are significantly more used in homocides than any other gun, or even any other kind of weapon.

[Fluffybunny]

I'm not arguing against the necessity of you possessing a gun for safety, nor am I arguing against all guns in general. I simply believe that handguns ought to be banned from being sold in gunshops to private citizens. As I mentioned in my earlier post, they are used as the murder weapon in a huge number of homocides every years, and as the link I posted earlier to a USDoJ study shows, they've been growing both in total numbers and as a percentage of homocides.

I can understand what you are saying. Unfortunately there is a slippery slope concern that I have with the idea of banning hand guns (aside from the fact that only law abiding citizens would abide by the ban). let me see if I can say this in a clear manner... Let us say that we ban every one of the handguns that are involved with the higher percentage of crimes at this point... Does that mean that the percentage of people murdered by guns will go down? No I do not think so; the murders will then be done with rifles and shotguns rather than pistols...the easiest form of being able to kill will be used.

...so here we are years down the road and the DOJ report statistics look the same, but now the majority of gun crimes are done with semi automatic rifles rather than bolt action. The same logic dictates that if we were to ban the most destructive weapon that crime will somehow get better; we wont have to concern ourselves with the damage of semi auto rifles...

So here we are years down the road and the DOJ report statistics look the same, but now a majority of the crimes are commited by bolt action rifles rather than Black Powder rifles...

If we got rid of the black powder rifles...

Can you see where I am going? There will always be a MOST dangerous weapon...always. The kind of logic you use will not be happy until every gun is banned, and then you would end up going after pocket knives because more people die from them than ninja swords...until the pocket knives are all gone.

Guns can kill people, of that there is no doubt. As long as there are guns on this earth there will be people that get shot by them. It is unfortunate that people will die that are innocent, but that is something that happens with cars, medicine, surgery...life is dangerous and cannot be idiot proofed.

In my opinion, a better solution would be to focus on keeping the guns away from criminals and to take the criminals who use guns in crimes and make sure they never get a chance to use them again. Make criminals pay for their crimes rather than the revolving door criminals that we have now...

I do not understand why such a small number of criminals who create the majority of gun crimes can somehow dictate the rights of the overwhelming majority of law abiding gun owners. It is no different to me than saying that because drunk drivers hurt and kill people we are going to ban cars.

More specifically, would it have made a difference to the robbers had you been pointing a Twelve-Gauge Shotgun at them instead of a pistol? It's important because, as I linked to earlier, shotguns are used in a far smaller number of homocides.

I cannot move, shoot or reload a shotgun in a quick manner if need be; so yes it makes a huge difference. If I were to be rush in tight quarters by four guys with a pistol I would have a good chance; with a shotgun I might only get one shot off before I would have 3 unhappy individuals with their hands on me...

Rifles and shotguns do not do well in close range matters; only handguns do. Now if I had 50 yards between me and a robber, you would have a point. Unfortunately only handguns are appropriate for home defense.

My opinion is that all of the gun laws, bans, limitations of any kind ONLY EFFECT LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. You might be able to make me turn in my pistols, but I can assure you that the drug dealer will not be so thoughtful and willing to due their duty as a citizen.

Let law abiding folks defend themselves as they see fit. Do not hobble the poor guy who simply wants to be able to protect his family from the actual person who is the real problem. Focus on making sure than criminals do not get guns, and if they do get caught with them(not just using them, but simply having them) that they do not have the freedom to be able to get another weapon and use them.

[Fluffybunny]

The FBI would disagree with that. According to the FBI link posted above, from 2001-2005, 9,215 were killed using "knives or other cutting instruments" - meaning pretty much anything with a blade. At the same time (2001-2005), 36,799 people were killed with handguns. I'd say the handguns are more lethal, and on top of that, they are significantly more used in homocides than any other gun, or even any other kind of weapon.

Are you prepared to go after all weapons that have blades; the ones that killed the 9215 people (after guns are banned), or is that an acceptable level of loss to you?

As I said, there will always be the most deadly weapon.

[Guardsman Bass]

Are you prepared to go after all weapons that have blades; the ones that killed the 9215 people (after guns are banned), or is that an acceptable level of loss to you?

As I said, there will always be the most deadly weapon.

I was responding to the poster's claim that kitchen knives killed more people than handguns, which is clearly false.

In response to your prior post, about shotguns and rifles replacing handguns if handguns were banned for private use -

While their (shotguns and rifles) use in homocides would undoubtedly increase, I don't think it's so simple a matter as "moving on to the next deadliest weapon". Shotguns and Rifles are more lethal than, say, punching someone to death (at least in terms of how quickly and effectively they can kill), but both are actually used in a significantly smaller number of homocides than those caused by "personal weapons" (i.e. punching or kicking someone to death). I would venture a guess that this is because both are simply far less useful for a criminal, for a number of factors including their conspicuousness (in other words, it's far easier to hide a handgun on your person than a Twelve Gauge).

I should have specified my query about your encounter with the break-in. When the crooks saw you with the gun, what was their immediate reaction? Did they try to move on you, or just come to a crashing halt?

[Fluffybunny]

I should have specified my query about your encounter with the break-in. When the crooks saw you with the gun, what was their immediate reaction? Did they try to move on you, or just come to a crashing halt?

The guy closest to me went for the pistol in his waistband. The two directly behin him stood there and egged him on to shoot me. The one just climbing in the window put his hands up... The two who egged on their partner also had guns but did not reach for them...yet.

I think that criminals will always use the most effective method to harm or threaten people, be it a pistol, rifle, shotgun or grampas muzzle loader. I can't imagine that because a particular weapon gets banned that somehow criminals are going to give up violent crime. They will simply find the best way they can to hurt people.

[Fluffybunny]

It is not the same to shoot at a deer, bird, pigeon than at a person. Most of us have several mental safeguards to switch off. That is why it does not really matter if you have a gun to "protect"yourself. Against an armed criminal you don't have a chance unless you train five hours a day.

That is simply not true.

Having the ability to fire the weapon you own requires training, but a home owner does not have to be Annie Oakley to be able to defend themselves; they simply have to be familiar enough with the weapon to be able to hit what they are aiming at. It isn't as if criminals have some union whereby weapons training is provided to get them to quick-draw status. In your own home you have an advantage of familiarity with your surroundings which gives a person quite and edge.

I find it stunning and sad that people are willing to roll over and not even attempt to protect themselves against animals that would do harm to them or their family. If some person decides to attempt to break into my home to rob me, kill me, rape my wife or kids, whatever their goal may be I would NEVER be willing to just roll over and allow that to happen; I am willing to take the chance to get shot(assuming they have a gun) to protect those that I love.

If you are not willing to protect your family, who is?

[Dowdy]

IN Australia, the banning of guns has been very sucessfull, i think. The only people who have guns are the gangstas and bikies and the ganstas have wiped themselves off the map by killing each other (the melbourne gangs). And the bikies, if you leave them along, they leave you alone.

The only attacks you see here are knife attacks but as my Wing Tsun teacher said "The first defense in run" and you can run from a knife, you cant run from a bullet.

I dont live in fear. Sometimes i go running in the pitch black night just to keep fit. If there were guns around i probably wouldn't because like i said before, you can run from a knife, you cant run from a bullet.

The idea of having guns to protect you loved one is just a paranoid delusion. Theres a greater chance of your kid finding the gun and playing with it, thinking its a toy and accidentally killing himself. I'm not sure about the statististics of it, but the common robber is usually a junkie (quickly in, quickly out) and if he knows anyone is home he'll move on to the next house. Even if the robbers' intention was to rap your kids or wife, how do you know a gun is going to help. You might try to shoot the robber but there's a chance you might shoot your own family member in the struggle.

[questionmark]

Obviously you don't seem to realize that a smart gun owner who genuinely wants their gun for self-protection can drive out to the nearest public shooting range and practice. Ranges are there for a reason.

And how many double-employed-average-joes can do that? Do they have a few hours a day to get to the same level as gun men or police officers?

[bathory]

IN Australia, the banning of guns has been very sucessfull, i think. The only people who have guns are the gangstas and bikies and the ganstas have wiped themselves off the map by killing each other (the melbourne gangs). And the bikies, if you leave them along, they leave you alone.

the banning of guns in australia didn't achieve anything at all dude

we never had a high rate of homicide to begin with

if you look up the stats you'll find the rate of homicide is about the same as it was pre-1996 ban

you can run from a knife,

and hope they aren't faster than you...

The idea of having guns to protect you loved one is just a paranoid delusion.

so Fluffy is paranoid because he has actually had to use his firearms for protection?

heres a greater chance of your kid finding the gun and playing with it, thinking its a toy and accidentally killing himself.

is there?

'm not sure about the statististics of it, but the common robber is usually a junkie (quickly in, quickly out) and if he knows anyone is home he'll move on to the next house.

and what about uncommon robber?

if you don't know the stats at all, why are you even discussing the chances of anything?

Even if the robbers' intention was to rap your kids or wife, how do you know a gun is going to help. You might try to shoot the robber but there's a chance you might shoot your own family member in the struggle.

so you shouldn't have a gun in case you accidentally shoot a family member in the struggle stop them being raped and killed?

[Moondoggy]

There have been many statistical studies that can be looked up on the NRA web site that deals with crime rate reduction in counties that allow concealed weapons permits. The reason boils down to a simple premise called "the balance of power". On a macro scale we saw this with the former USSR and the USA. Both countries have nuclear armamant and both knew that mutual destruction would occur because of the balance of power. On a micro scale a criminal is far more likely to victimize someone he/she deems unarmed.