How much electricity needed by Maglev trains?

[Repoman]

Does anyone know the answers to these questions?

How many kilowatts/megawatts per hour of electricity is need to propel a magnetically levitated train?

How many horsepower of energy is required to spin an electrical generator powerful enough to power the electromagnets for the mag-lev train?

Wouldn't it be cool if the amount of electricity needed to power the mag-lev train was less than the amount of HP needed to power the generator to power the mag-lev train?

Why couldn't electrical generators be made so that their rotation is powered by magnetic-levitation?

If the generator was correctly balanced then the amount of energy to keep it spinning shouldn't be too much.

Couldn't the output of the generator be used to power the electromagnets to keep it spinning?

[questionmark]

Does anyone know the answers to these questions?

How many kilowatts/megawatts per hour of electricity is need to propel a magnetically levitated train?

How many horsepower of energy is required to spin an electrical generator powerful enough to power the electromagnets for the mag-lev train?

Wouldn't it be cool if the amount of electricity needed to power the mag-lev train was less than the amount of HP needed to power the generator to power the mag-lev train?

Why couldn't electrical generators be made so that their rotation is powered by magnetic-levitation?

If the generator was correctly balanced then the amount of energy to keep it spinning shouldn't be too much.

Couldn't the output of the generator be used to power the electromagnets to keep it spinning?

According to Siemens, their Transrapid consumes more electricity for the air conditioner than for the levitation magnets. Neutral experts claim that the Transrapid consumes about 2/3 of the electricity of the TGV (French high speed train) at the same speed, but it is funny that there are no hard figures to be found anywhere.

and yes. magnetic bearings have been experimented with, but generally the energy saving they have compared to a ball bearing does not warrant the additional investment.

[Repoman]

and yes. magnetic bearings have been experimented with, but generally the energy saving they have compared to a ball bearing does not warrant the additional investment.

I wasn't thinking so much of magnetic bearings (but they would also reduce friction to next to zero), but of a set of paddles that get pushed by electromagnets just like the way maglev trains are pushed. Like paddles on a waterwheel, the entire generator could be spun by electromagnets. Even if 99% of the energy produced by the generator went back towards keeping the generator spinning it would still mean a net gain of electricity.

The laws of thermodynamics wouldn't be broken because eventually you would need to replace hardware that wears down and there would be some heat generated and the initial powering up of the generator would need a lot of energy.

But it has always seemed to me that the energy needed to spin a generator would be less than the energy needed to propel a huge passenger train at over 100 miles per hour. And if the train could be powered by a single generator and the single generator needs less power than the train.... you could power the generator with its own output with plenty left over.

Once it is spinning, the amounts of energy needed to keep those electromagnets pulsing in the right tempo to keep the generator spinning would be pretty small compared to the entire output of the generator.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Repoman

[questionmark]

Once it is spinning, the amounts of energy needed to keep those electromagnets pulsing in the right tempo to keep the generator spinning would be pretty small compared to the entire output of the generator.

Lots of luck, would like to see the picture of a prototype at some point....

[RabidCat]

Generally speaking, I have an open mind about lots of stuff. However, being an electronics engineer, let me point out some things.

What you describe uses relatively conventional ideas and is subject to standard laws. Any generator has points of loss, among them the frictional losses, and keeping this tame, the electrical losses within the generator itself. Drive systems are also subject to those losses.

It's similar to the idea (very old) of using an electric motor to drive a generator and the output of the generator to charge the battery that powers the motor. It just won't work. The losses within all elements will catch up, and the whole thing will gently spin to a stop.

Having said that, make note of the word "conventional". Under virtually every test condition ever applied, "conventional" machines will not go over unity.

Unconventional machines might. Regardless what the hard core says, we live with laws of physics that are not laws at all: they are theories, and since we don't know everything there is to know, they must remain theories. We also live in an "apparent" world, where the cause-effect is not always obvious. While it isn't possible to get energy from nowhere, it might well be possible to get excess energy from some unknown where, possibly what is now called the Dirac sea, aether, zero point, or whatever. I suspect magnetism may be the doorway.

Magnetic amplifiers (magamps) have unique properties. It is possible to play with these to do some strange things.

Since we don't know everything, here's a website with a rather interesting patent applied for. Theoretically, the device will operate as stated in the patent application; that's a theoretical analysis of the device. I intend to build one of these things to see if it actually does work. The website is http://magneticpowerinc.com/patent.html and has a link to the patent application. If you have a rudimentary understanding of magnetics, you should be able to understand the operation.

Good luck, but my advice is to go with unconventional ideas. Also, remember that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and that seems to be a solid theory. And it can be used.

[Repoman]

http://magneticpowerinc.com/patent.html and has a link to the patent application.

Cool link - thanks! But if it were real......

[RabidCat]

Cool link - thanks! But if it were real......

You're welcome.

If it were real, what?

In short, according to the patent app, the function of the thing is to cause permanent magnets to shift field direction within the toroid core. As the fields shift, due to the external power reversing the direction of the flux flow, the shift generates electrical current in the "secondary" windings that pierce the toroid. Effectively, this is identical to a conventional alternator, with the exception that this thing has no moving parts. The field shift is caused electrically, and the field is permanent magnet. The generated power is nearly wholly derived from the permanent magnets, and overcoming the reverse electrical torque is also done by the magnets.

In theory, and practically speaking, the concept works. It's been done many times, although not quite like this.

A bigger question is this: in reading the patent and examining the drawings, it seems that the external inputs are modified in one set of drawings to utilize the tank circuit (tuned circuit) effects, which tend to lessen input power. Circuits such as this are widely used in radio circuits for tuning various frequencies. One of the characteristics of a tuned circuit is the ability to minimize input power by capturing 'flyback' and re-using the coil power dump. If Magnetic Power does this (and it appears so), then the input is minimized and shifting the internal toroid field is accomplished with a minimized input power. Further, if the PM fields being shifted is additive to the external drive, and it could be, then we have a very weird device.

The above is described in patent language, making it more difficult to understand, and also leaving out some important facts about the machine.

I'm currently in the process of building one of these from an old power filter toroid I have. The process will be something like this:

1. Construct the toroid/windings as patent app specifies.

2. See if the thing actually will generate power using samarium cobalt magnets (I have a bunch of those).

3. Measure output power capacity maximum vs input power requirements, using 60Hz through a Variac.

4. Modify input circuitry to include a transformer as patent app specifies.

5. Add circuitry to transformer primary to tune the primary circuit of the external input.

6. Using square wave or pulse generator and drivers, adjust operating frequency to match tuning of primary.

7. Finally, measure full load output vs full load input requirements to determine maximum efficiency.

If the results are of any interest to anyone, I'll be happy to forward to you.

[aztek]

You're welcome.

If it were real, what?

In short, according to the patent app, the function of the thing is to cause permanent magnets to shift field direction within the toroid core. As the fields shift, due to the external power reversing the direction of the flux flow, the shift generates electrical current in the "secondary" windings that pierce the toroid. Effectively, this is identical to a conventional alternator, with the exception that this thing has no moving parts. The field shift is caused electrically, and the field is permanent magnet. The generated power is nearly wholly derived from the permanent magnets, and overcoming the reverse electrical torque is also done by the magnets.

In theory, and practically speaking, the concept works. It's been done many times, although not quite like this.

A bigger question is this: in reading the patent and examining the drawings, it seems that the external inputs are modified in one set of drawings to utilize the tank circuit (tuned circuit) effects, which tend to lessen input power. Circuits such as this are widely used in radio circuits for tuning various frequencies. One of the characteristics of a tuned circuit is the ability to minimize input power by capturing 'flyback' and re-using the coil power dump. If Magnetic Power does this (and it appears so), then the input is minimized and shifting the internal toroid field is accomplished with a minimized input power. Further, if the PM fields being shifted is additive to the external drive, and it could be, then we have a very weird device.

The above is described in patent language, making it more difficult to understand, and also leaving out some important facts about the machine.

I'm currently in the process of building one of these from an old power filter toroid I have. The process will be something like this:

1. Construct the toroid/windings as patent app specifies.

2. See if the thing actually will generate power using samarium cobalt magnets (I have a bunch of those).

3. Measure output power capacity maximum vs input power requirements, using 60Hz through a Variac.

4. Modify input circuitry to include a transformer as patent app specifies.

5. Add circuitry to transformer primary to tune the primary circuit of the external input.

6. Using square wave or pulse generator and drivers, adjust operating frequency to match tuning of primary.

7. Finally, measure full load output vs full load input requirements to determine maximum efficiency.

If the results are of any interest to anyone, I'll be happy to forward to you.

i,d be very intersted with results, i,m sure many would.

[RabidCat]

i,d be very intersted with results, i,m sure many would.

OK, aztek. I'll post the results, most likely in a new thread.

[aztek]

OK, aztek. I'll post the results, most likely in a new thread.

thanks.