You'll believe what i tell you so...

[TheKnight]

Shame on you for saying things like this... it is untrue that many Christians don't know their Bibles... they do know them, you just haven't agreed with their understanding. Additionally, it is unfair to say that a LOT of what Christians teach isn't biblical when a difference of understanding does not a wrong teaching make. I find it offensive that someone who has so recently "changed" their position on Christ has this type of negative attitude toward Christians who remain faithful to their beliefs. How can you judge another when you cannot see into their heart? Do you think that God does not forgive ignorance, or misunderstanding? COme on, give Him more credit than that...

Moonlit, I was merely speaking from experience. In my short life I have met about 1300 Christians both in person and online. I would say that out of that number I have met only a good 50 or 60 who knew the Bible really well and what it said. TBH, most Christians I have met only reiterate what their pastors have told them. Also, when I was a Christian my main goal was to educate Christians on their lack of knowledge of the Bible. I too had a lack of knowledge of the Bible which is why I thought Jesus was the Messiah. My goal to this day remains to educate Christians about the Bible and what it ACTUALLY says. Not the agendas of pastors and bigots and paranoid politicians who seek to control the world with their Christian views. I am 100% positive that there are MANY Christians who know their Bible. However, I am also 100% positive that their are many who do not. Unfortunately I have met plenty who do not know the Bible. I don't like to see the Bible twisted. I didn't as a Christian, and I still don't. I tell people that nothing has changed about me. All that has happened it I have begun to admit that I never believed in Christ in the first place. With the Bible you can see that Jesus is not the Messiah. If you want to dismiss it as just my understanding, than go ahead. I won't mind because I have seen Christians dismiss plenty of things because it was just someone's "understanding".

Christian

Lol that'd be weird. "Mom, Dad, I'm an occultist." It's like a Christian's worst nightmare.

[Genocyde]

Lol that'd be weird. "Mom, Dad, I'm an occultist." It's like a Christian's worst nightmare.

Which is why I said it would probably be a murder on tape...naw if anything they would just make me have to go to some special group at church or something to try to have the priests convert me to Christianity, maybe I will tell them...I've always wanted to debate about Christianity with a priest......anyway, when/if I do it, I'll be sure to tape it and post it here for you guys

[TheKnight]

Which is why I said it would probably be a murder on tape...naw if anything they would just make me have to go to some special group at church or something to try to have the priests convert me to Christianity, maybe I will tell them...I've always wanted to debate about Christianity with a priest......anyway, when/if I do it, I'll be sure to tape it and post it here for you guys

Sweetness. I would love to see it

[moonlit12]

Moonlit, I was merely speaking from experience. In my short life I have met about 1300 Christians both in person and online. I would say that out of that number I have met only a good 50 or 60 who knew the Bible really well and what it said. TBH, most Christians I have met only reiterate what their pastors have told them. Also, when I was a Christian my main goal was to educate Christians on their lack of knowledge of the Bible. I too had a lack of knowledge of the Bible which is why I thought Jesus was the Messiah. My goal to this day remains to educate Christians about the Bible and what it ACTUALLY says. Not the agendas of pastors and bigots and paranoid politicians who seek to control the world with their Christian views. I am 100% positive that there are MANY Christians who know their Bible. However, I am also 100% positive that their are many who do not. Unfortunately I have met plenty who do not know the Bible. I don't like to see the Bible twisted. I didn't as a Christian, and I still don't. I tell people that nothing has changed about me. All that has happened it I have begun to admit that I never believed in Christ in the first place. With the Bible you can see that Jesus is not the Messiah. If you want to dismiss it as just my understanding, than go ahead. I won't mind because I have seen Christians dismiss plenty of things because it was just someone's "understanding".

In your short life how can you possibly know how many christians you have met? What about the people who did not openly profess? Or the people you never took time to talk to about their faith? Are you saying that you had in depth spiritual discussions which you can vividly recall with 1300 folks? I think it is naive and proud to pass judgement on another for their understanding of anything. Simply because you have lost faith in a previous belief does not mean it is now your personal fight to make all Jesus - loving chrisitans look like fools and ignorants. I fail to see how your understanding of the Bible is the end all of discussion and knowledge. If you choose to share that you have lost faith that is one thing, but to accuse others of bigotry and hypocrisy because they still have faith and express in ways you don't agree with is childish.

I too have done the research, and I too have been a student of theology (albeit in a college, not online) and I have been convinced of the validity of Christ's claim to the Messiahship. This does not mean that I think you are going to Hell or that you are stupid for believing the opposite because I am old enough to know better. Perhaps get a few more years of experience behind you before attempting to make others look bad.

[moonlit12]

Which is why I said it would probably be a murder on tape...naw if anything they would just make me have to go to some special group at church or something to try to have the priests convert me to Christianity, maybe I will tell them...I've always wanted to debate about Christianity with a priest......anyway, when/if I do it, I'll be sure to tape it and post it here for you guys

You disturb me a little...

[Genocyde]

You disturb me a little...

lol, why is that?

[TheKnight]

In your short life how can you possibly know how many christians you have met? What about the people who did not openly profess? Or the people you never took time to talk to about their faith? Are you saying that you had in depth spiritual discussions which you can vividly recall with 1300 folks? I think it is naive and proud to pass judgement on another for their understanding of anything. Simply because you have lost faith in a previous belief does not mean it is now your personal fight to make all Jesus - loving chrisitans look like fools and ignorants. I fail to see how your understanding of the Bible is the end all of discussion and knowledge. If you choose to share that you have lost faith that is one thing, but to accuse others of bigotry and hypocrisy because they still have faith and express in ways you don't agree with is childish.

I too have done the research, and I too have been a student of theology (albeit in a college, not online) and I have been convinced of the validity of Christ's claim to the Messiahship. This does not mean that I think you are going to Hell or that you are stupid for believing the opposite because I am old enough to know better. Perhaps get a few more years of experience behind you before attempting to make others look bad.

Lol, you don't understand. I accused Christians of bigotry and hyprocrisy even when I was a Christian. I have always seen the flaws in mainline Christianity. You can ask BM, I've ranted about it to her in PM. You can even ask Sheri, I've popped her a couple of emails about my disdain for Christianity, and that was almost a year ago. Maybe my understanding of what the Bible says IS wrong but Number 23:19 says God is not a man, which Jesus was, and Isaiah 45:22 says that if we turn to God we are saved, which means no Jesus is necessary. I have said at least 10 times since my conversion that God is SO good that he wrote his response to Christianity 700 years before Christianity existed. YOU may need the man Christ Jesus, and that is fine. But please don't get angry at me for posting the Scriptures of my faith which show that Jesus was nothing more than a nice man with a nice message.

[moonlit12]

lol, why is that?

Well I took the time to read the quotes that are posted with your comments and... wow

[Genocyde]

Well I took the time to read the quotes that are posted with your comments and... wow

ehh...thats alright, I disturb a lot of people, I'm just different, what can I say? lol

[moonlit12]

Lol, you don't understand. I accused Christians of bigotry and hyprocrisy even when I was a Christian. I have always seen the flaws in mainline Christianity. You can ask BM, I've ranted about it to her in PM. You can even ask Sheri, I've popped her a couple of emails about my disdain for Christianity, and that was almost a year ago. Maybe my understanding of what the Bible says IS wrong but Number 23:19 says God is not a man, which Jesus was, and Isaiah 45:22 says that if we turn to God we are saved, which means no Jesus is necessary. I have said at least 10 times since my conversion that God is SO good that he wrote his response to Christianity 700 years before Christianity existed. YOU may need the man Christ Jesus, and that is fine. But please don't get angry at me for posting the Scriptures of my faith which show that Jesus was nothing more than a nice man with a nice message.

I am curious how you think God appeared to Abraham, Moses, and others in the OT. If God walked on earth and spoke face to face with these men as it is written about in the OT, in what form was He if not a human one?

I understand that you may have had these misgivings for all of your walk, but why be so negative and degrading to those of us who don't have these doubts? I find it easier to discuss things with folks who are not so eager to insult my beliefs and the people I identify with.

[TheKnight]

I am curious how you think God appeared to Abraham, Moses, and others in the OT. If God walked on earth and spoke face to face with these men as it is written about in the OT, in what form was He if not a human one?

Who knows. Probably in the way that God spoke to people every other time he physically appeared in the Bible. Through the Angel of the Lord.

I understand that you may have had these misgivings for all of your walk, but why be so negative and degrading to those of us who don't have these doubts? I find it easier to discuss things with folks who are not so eager to insult my beliefs and the people I identify with.

Of course you find it easier to discuss things with people who agree with you. However, I am not insulting your beliefs. If anything, your beliefs are an insult to mine. To have your god come and tell people that he is my God is an insult. I speak to you, just as you would speak to someone who YOU feel is worshiping an idol. It's one thing to not serve my God, that I can live with, but to have the audacity to say that your god is my God. That is a high insult to me because my God says that there is no God other than him. So please excuse me, if my posts carry an air of passion in them.

[Oxymoron]

Mr. Moonlit I have a question if Jesus came down today to your bedroom one night and said take your son and kill him right here and now to prove your trust in god would you do it answer honestly.

[Oxymoron]

Who knows. Probably in the way that God spoke to people every other time he physically appeared in the Bible. Through the Angel of the Lord.

Of course you find it easier to discuss things with people who agree with you. However, I am not insulting your beliefs. If anything, your beliefs are an insult to mine. To have your god come and tell people that he is my God is an insult. I speak to you, just as you would speak to someone who YOU feel is worshiping an idol. It's one thing to not serve my God, that I can live with, but to have the audacity to say that your god is my God. That is a high insult to me because my God says that there is no God other than him. So please excuse me, if my posts carry an air of passion in them.

What is your problem exactly you are bashing a religion while yoursrelies on faight as much as christianity why is your blinf faight better then his blind faight? Every one has right to their opinion this board is set up so we can better understand each other, I want to know what makes everyone thick it helps me understand myself better. That is why its good to ask question but to demean it is not helping matters when everyone is yelling no one is listening.

[TheKnight]

What is your problem exactly you are bashing a religion while yoursrelies on faight as much as christianity why is your blinf faight better then his blind faight? Every one has right to their opinion this board is set up so we can better understand each other, I want to know what makes everyone thick it helps me understand myself better. That is why its good to ask question but to demean it is not helping matters when everyone is yelling no one is listening.

I haven't got blind faith, I've got knowledge. I haven't demeaned his faith, only shown, with evidence from the very Bible he proclaims, that Jesus is not the Messiah.

[moonlit12]

Who knows. Probably in the way that God spoke to people every other time he physically appeared in the Bible. Through the Angel of the Lord.

Of course you find it easier to discuss things with people who agree with you. However, I am not insulting your beliefs. If anything, your beliefs are an insult to mine. To have your god come and tell people that he is my God is an insult. I speak to you, just as you would speak to someone who YOU feel is worshiping an idol. It's one thing to not serve my God, that I can live with, but to have the audacity to say that your god is my God. That is a high insult to me because my God says that there is no God other than him. So please excuse me, if my posts carry an air of passion in them.

Not "passion", arrogance. It is not your beliefs that are insulting it is your words. It is the lack of respect for other people that I find offensive. I am sure that you would agree that God would like us to treat one another kindly and with compassion, and I find it laughable that someone who claims to speak to the God of the universe cannot get at least that right. The video that this thread highlighted is a good example of your type of "passion" - the kind that is overshadowed by fear, anger, and pride. Just like the woman in the vid, there are all kinds of believers who let their "passion" become a battleground, and I am sure you can also agree that NOONE is likely to be persuaded by another when the one speaking is insulting and obnoxious in their zeal.

This vid is a good way to make us all take a look at ourselves and really check to see that we let other people believe and behave the way they feel is right without feeling better than they are or threatened by them if they are different than us. Because of this vid, I will be examining myself to make sure that I am showing love and acceptance even in the face of rejection and hostility. It is the least we can do, since we are all in this boat together.

[Oxymoron]

Moolit care to answer my question?

[moonlit12]

Mr. Moonlit I have a question if Jesus came down today to your bedroom one night and said take your son and kill him right here and now to prove your trust in god would you do it answer honestly.

It is mrs. moonlit and I don't think that I can answer that question without irritating you. Jesus wouldn't come down and ask me to do anything of the sort because I know He is not going to be back until He comes for His people.

- however -

I would hope that if I was asked to sacrifice the most important things in my life for the sake of my faith in Christ that I would be brave enough to do so. I am aware of people throughout history who have been forced to watch their family and friends killed for their beliefs and I hold those people in high regard, and would strive to be like them if I was ever in the same situation (Lord forbid!)

Edited August 19, 2007 by moonlit12

[TheKnight]

Not "passion", arrogance. It is not your beliefs that are insulting it is your words. It is the lack of respect for other people that I find offensive. I am sure that you would agree that God would like us to treat one another kindly and with compassion, and I find it laughable that someone who claims to speak to the God of the universe cannot get at least that right. The video that this thread highlighted is a good example of your type of "passion" - the kind that is overshadowed by fear, anger, and pride. Just like the woman in the vid, there are all kinds of believers who let their "passion" become a battleground, and I am sure you can also agree that NOONE is likely to be persuaded by another when the one speaking is insulting and obnoxious in their zeal.

This vid is a good way to make us all take a look at ourselves and really check to see that we let other people believe and behave the way they feel is right without feeling better than they are or threatened by them if they are different than us. Because of this vid, I will be examining myself to make sure that I am showing love and acceptance even in the face of rejection and hostility. It is the least we can do, since we are all in this boat together.

Well that is good. I believe self-examination is a very very good thing. However, I fail to see how my passion is overshadowed by fear anger and pride. I am not fearful, and I am only slightly angry. I think its a terrible tragedy where in one half of the Bible certain things are laid down for instruction, and then in the other half the first half is considered almost useless. I mean, Paul taught against the law in a rage of sorts. Yet God made it CLEAR that his law was to be followed forever, not ONLY that but the Messiah is said to unite all men under God's commandments. Now, you can say that it is my interpretation which leads me to this conclusions, but I fail to see how these accusations can be swept aside like nothing without any explanation. No, it's not a nice thought to think Jesus isn't the Messiah, but if it's true should it matter how nice a thought it is? I think it is a crime against the Jews when the Christian I talk to are so stuck up in their ways that they would go so far as to say that they know more about the Jewish scriptures than the Jews. Maybe my problem is that I let what I have experienced with Christians run into my thoughts and opinions about Christianity as a whole. Overall, I have had nothing but a negative experience with Christianity, both as a Christian and as a Noachide. I suppose that I should consider before posting each post, that I am talking to an individual human being that (though he/she is a part of that body) he/she is not the entirety of Christianity. So I guess the least I can do, is to tone down my disgust for the Christians I have met in my lifetime, and do well to remember that each person is unique in his/her beliefs.

[Oxymoron]

It is mrs. moonlit and I don't think that I can answer that question without irritating you. Jesus wouldn't come down and ask me to do anything of the sort because I know He is not going to be back until He comes for His people.

- however -

I would hope that if I was asked to sacrifice the most important things in my life for the sake of my faith in Christ that I would be brave enough to do so. I am aware of people throughout history who have been forced to watch their family and friends killed for their beliefs and I hold those people in high regard, and would strive to be like them if I was ever in the same situation (Lord forbid!)

I am sorry for the misprint.

Ummm interesting well we could substitute the angel Gabriel for Jesus if that makes things eaiser for you.

Thanks for the honesty it scares me very much but if thats what you believe so much that you would sacrifce your child I am in no position to change that no matter what I say.

Watch and actually do it is very different to look into the eyes, the child would not understand and say why are you doing this to me I love you, as you plunge the knife deeper taking the life away as the child eyes loose their focus and the life is drained out . I think you would feel differently if actually put into that position, as Abraham was.

[Genocyde]

I am sorry for the misprint.

Ummm interesting well we could substitute the angel Gabriel for Jesus if that makes things eaiser for you.

Thanks for the honesty it scares me very much but if thats what you believe so much that you would sacrifce your child I am in no position to change that no matter what I say.

Watch and actually do it is very different to look into the eyes, the child would not understand and say why are you doing this to me I love you, as you plunge the knife deeper taking the life away as the child eyes loose their focus and the life is drained out . I think you would feel differently if actually put into that position, as Abraham was.

But then again, there are some people out there who wouldn't think twice about it, if they believe their God told them to do it, they would, and who are we to question that? I mean, yes, many of us would find it a little disturbing to say the least, but their faith is their faith, and if they are that committed to it, then good for them(?)

Me personally, I wouldn't care if Christ, Siddhatha Gautama, Anubis, or YHVH, came and told me to kill a child, I wouldn't be able to. There is nothing in this world, or any other that could get me to kill a child.

[moonlit12]

Well that is good. I believe self-examination is a very very good thing. However, I fail to see how my passion is overshadowed by fear anger and pride. I am not fearful, and I am only slightly angry. I think its a terrible tragedy where in one half of the Bible certain things are laid down for instruction, and then in the other half the first half is considered almost useless. I mean, Paul taught against the law in a rage of sorts. Yet God made it CLEAR that his law was to be followed forever, not ONLY that but the Messiah is said to unite all men under God's commandments. Now, you can say that it is my interpretation which leads me to this conclusions, but I fail to see how these accusations can be swept aside like nothing without any explanation. No, it's not a nice thought to think Jesus isn't the Messiah, but if it's true should it matter how nice a thought it is? I think it is a crime against the Jews when the Christian I talk to are so stuck up in their ways that they would go so far as to say that they know more about the Jewish scriptures than the Jews. Maybe my problem is that I let what I have experienced with Christians run into my thoughts and opinions about Christianity as a whole. Overall, I have had nothing but a negative experience with Christianity, both as a Christian and as a Noachide. I suppose that I should consider before posting each post, that I am talking to an individual human being that (though he/she is a part of that body) he/she is not the entirety of Christianity. So I guess the least I can do, is to tone down my disgust for the Christians I have met in my lifetime, and do well to remember that each person is unique in his/her beliefs.

Paul never taught against the law. That statement alone shows that you are operating under your own understanding. Paul wrote in Galations 3:19-29 that "...God is one." He had a visitation from Jesus Himslef, but still Paul acknowledged the Father as separate yet one. Paul also wrote in Romans 7:12 "So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, and just and good." and also "For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self" Romans 7:22.

I don't see that as teaching "against the law".

It is not offensive to me to hear you say Jesus is not the Messiah. I simply disagree. Lastly, I think that it would take a whole lot of knowledge to be able to say one way or the other that Christians know more about the scriptures than the Jews or vice-versa. I am not versed enough in Jewish teaching to make the assertion either way. Perhaps try not to hold opinions based on limited understanding.

[moonlit12]

I am sorry for the misprint.

Ummm interesting well we could substitute the angel Gabriel for Jesus if that makes things eaiser for you.

Thanks for the honesty it scares me very much but if thats what you believe so much that you would sacrifce your child I am in no position to change that no matter what I say.

Watch and actually do it is very different to look into the eyes, the child would not understand and say why are you doing this to me I love you, as you plunge the knife deeper taking the life away as the child eyes loose their focus and the life is drained out . I think you would feel differently if actually put into that position, as Abraham was.

I hope that you understand that Abraham did NOT kill Isaac. He was "saved" from that act by God. Nowhere in scripture is it written that human sacrifice was neccessary to please God, and the only sacrifice of any man that God required was Jesus. It is commonly believed that God did not intend for Abraham to kill Isaac, instead it was a "trial by fire" if you will. Isaac was a miracle born to a post-menoposal woman and God had proved Himself to Abraham with Isaac. Abraham then proved his faith by willingly (but not happily) offering Isaac back. It is not the only time this type of thing happened. In the case of Samuel, he was given to the temple priest Eli at the age of three by his mother because she had promised God that if He granted her a child she would give him back.

[moonlit12]

Let me make something crystal clear... I WOULD NOT kill my child in the name of Jesus or anyone else. The people I referred to were missionaries and such who were forced to watch their families killed for their refusal to deny their faith. These people were not forced to kill their families. It is my belief that God does not, I repeat, DOES NOT require we kill anyone, for anything, at anytime.

Gotta go for a bit, be back in a few...

Edited August 19, 2007 by moonlit12

[GreyWeather]

I would hope that if I was asked to sacrifice the most important things in my life for the sake of my faith in Christ that I would be brave enough to do so. I am aware of people throughout history who have been forced to watch their family and friends killed for their beliefs and I hold those people in high regard, and would strive to be like them if I was ever in the same situation (Lord forbid!)

So, faith before flesh and blood?

...woah

Edit

Nvm, just read your last post. Your previous post, when replying to the question - what I highlighted - was... Scary to say the least.

Edited August 19, 2007 by Chokmah

[Genocyde]

So, faith before flesh and blood?

...woah

apparently you missed her other post

Let me make something crystal clear... I WOULD NOT kill my child in the name of Jesus or anyone else.