Llucid Posted September 9, 2007 #76 Share Posted September 9, 2007 But theres nothing spiritual about life, when you closely examine it. If God really controlled our heartbeats, wouldnt he just do the merciful thing to brain damaged people and stop their hearts to allow them to be free of their bodies? Do you really think most people in vegetative states would want to continue living(if you can call what they do living)? One truth that most children (at least in the U.S.) are taught today is that life is what we make it. How we think effects what we see and how we interpret it. This is not a new teaching, but it has recently been gaining momentum with the belief in 'Consensus Reality'. Each of us determines what is real and, in-turn, this dictates what reality is on a grander social scale. The closer you look, the less spiritual things are, but this doesn't mean that everyone will see the same things you do. You look at a caterpillar turning into a butterfly, and you see a series of natural events that trigger a metamorphosis, completely explainable and lacking anything deeper or more meaningful. I look at the same event and I see a message, an example, to us of our existance and the glory to come. It is very profound and distinctly spiritual to me, while at the same time lacking any spiritual signifigance to you. To the spiritual mind, the 'how' is not the important part, it's the 'why'. I cannot speak for people that live in vegetative states, I have never been in one. I know that we have sensitive instruments that can detect physical signs of life, such as brainwaves, but at the same time I believe that we are spiritual beings living in physical bodies, and I have no clue on where these people are or what they are experiencing spiritually. Saying this, I cannot say what the 'merciful' thing for God to do should be. I say that God sustains life, but that doesn't mean that He rules over it. He has given control over to us and it is the path of a Christian to give it back to Him. He only rules where He is allowed to. He could force Himself through if He chose too, but this would cause Him to violate His Word and would shatter our freewill, which He has so lovingly given us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graylady2 Posted September 9, 2007 #77 Share Posted September 9, 2007 a true willingness to let everything go, including our passions for our sins, is what truly sets us free. Why are you willing to let everything go? Because god told you to? How can the dictates of an entity, and your compliance, make you free? Sin is subjective, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graylady2 Posted September 9, 2007 #78 Share Posted September 9, 2007 But theres nothing spiritual about life, when you closely examine it.<snip> Agreed. There is one thing we all have in common - survival. It's our primary instinct, as well as every living creature on this planet. If god created us one would think our primary instinct would be to laud god, or serve him/her...it's not. It's personal survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graylady2 Posted September 9, 2007 #79 Share Posted September 9, 2007 He only rules where He is allowed to. ??? So - who puts this stricture on god? He could force Himself through if He chose too, but this would cause Him to violate His Word and would shatter our freewill, which He has so lovingly given us. If god is the creator he can fairly much do as he pleases...wouldn't you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted September 9, 2007 #80 Share Posted September 9, 2007 ??? So - who puts this stricture on god? If god is the creator he can fairly much do as he pleases...wouldn't you agree? That is what the believers keep telling us, that since their god is the creator, he has a right to do as he pleases. But then.......they stumble over this concept of "free will". Which, btw, is an unsupported concept in the holy books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted September 9, 2007 #81 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Why are you willing to let everything go? Because god told you to? How can the dictates of an entity, and your compliance, make you free? Sin is subjective, don't you think? for me, as a man to find that i truly NEED something, not refering to things like my family, makes me feel weak. ill be this man no matter what habits i partake in. thats not to say that i think EVERYTHING is wrong. but, no habit will claim ownership over me. if im convinced its detrimental to my existence or interferes with my relationship with god, its probably got to go. i believe in blatant sins, sins we commit in spite, and the little things like jealousy, lust, etc....that are a little harder to control. as humans, we know that some things are just wrong. its possible, through deficient parents or dulled morals because of environment, that these sins can become so commonplace that they become part of your very nature. gacey knew killing little children was wrong, no matter what he convinced pshycologics or the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted September 9, 2007 #82 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Agreed. There is one thing we all have in common - survival. It's our primary instinct, as well as every living creature on this planet. If god created us one would think our primary instinct would be to laud god, or serve him/her...it's not. It's personal survival. survival comes first because, well, what good is a longing for your creator if your dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted September 9, 2007 #83 Share Posted September 9, 2007 That is what the believers keep telling us, that since their god is the creator, he has a right to do as he pleases. But then.......they stumble over this concept of "free will". Which, btw, is an unsupported concept in the holy books every time the bible encourages righteous decisions, its encouraging you to use your "free will" correctly. free will, by definition, is our ability to make decisions. so technically, the bible adresses free will the majority of the bible. just because that particular term hadnt been contrived, it doesnt mean the issue wasnt addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cradle of Fish Posted September 9, 2007 #84 Share Posted September 9, 2007 "free will" I'd just like to add something. I dont believe in god or free will. I believe a persons behavior is constricted too much for the few choices we can make to be called "free". After the laws of nature, laws of society and our own instincts and compulsions, our choices are really narrow. In truth, the freest person around would be a sociopath, since they are only bound by the laws of nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted September 9, 2007 #85 Share Posted September 9, 2007 I'd just like to add something. I dont believe in god or free will. I believe a persons behavior is constricted too much for the few choices we can make to be called "free". After the laws of nature, laws of society and our own instincts and compulsions, our choices are really narrow. In truth, the freest person around would be a sociopath, since they are only bound by the laws of nature. lol, well, i suppose they have the most choices to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llucid Posted September 9, 2007 #86 Share Posted September 9, 2007 ??? So - who puts this stricture on god? If god is the creator he can fairly much do as he pleases...wouldn't you agree? God puts this restriction on Himself. He has allowed us to be the leaders of our own life. He does do what He pleases, and this is how He he chooses to work. Does it surprise you that God has given power to us? It because of His love for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momentarylapseofreason Posted September 9, 2007 #87 Share Posted September 9, 2007 for me, as a man to find that i truly NEED something, not refering to things like my family, makes me feel weak. ill be this man no matter what habits i partake in. thats not to say that i think EVERYTHING is wrong. but, no habit will claim ownership over me. gics or the media. You say that needs (except fam, )make you feel weak. And that no habits (I assume negative habits) will have ownership of you. If you are being honest with yourself as well as with me, my question is this: Do you feel that you need your faith and if you do ,why so ? Some infer religion/faith to be a crutch -although I must admit it's not necessarily a negative one although in some way it can be. I would guess,at the risk of appearing arrogant, perhaps naive or of being offensive again (or all of the above LOL) that faith/religion is for compensating a weakness of sorts that may give strength fueled by an illusion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted September 9, 2007 #88 Share Posted September 9, 2007 You say that needs (except fam, )make you feel weak. And that no habits (I assume negative habits) will have ownership of you. If you are being honest with yourself as well as with me, my question is this: Do you feel that you need your faith and if you do ,why so ? Some infer religion/faith to be a crutch -although I must admit it's not necessarily a negative one although in some way it can be. I would guess,at the risk of appearing arrogant, perhaps naive or of being offensive again (or all of the above LOL) that faith/religion is for compensating a weakness of sorts that may give strength fueled by an illusion ? it could be a million things. let me ask you, does it really matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momentarylapseofreason Posted September 9, 2007 #89 Share Posted September 9, 2007 it could be a million things. let me ask you, does it really matter? Yes it does with some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted September 9, 2007 #90 Share Posted September 9, 2007 (edited) Yes it does with some. i dont feel you have the right to judge it. you know what i see? happy people. Edited September 9, 2007 by Skim Milky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momentarylapseofreason Posted September 9, 2007 #91 Share Posted September 9, 2007 (edited) oops -in bad taste Edited September 9, 2007 by momentarylapseofreason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momentarylapseofreason Posted September 9, 2007 #92 Share Posted September 9, 2007 One truth that most children (at least in the U.S.) are taught today is that life is what we make it. How we think effects what we see and how we interpret it. This is not a new teaching, but it has recently been gaining momentum with the belief in 'Consensus Reality'. Each of us determines what is real and, in-turn, this dictates what reality is on a grander social scale. The closer you look, the less spiritual things are, but this doesn't mean that everyone will see the same things you do. You look at a caterpillar turning into a butterfly, and you see a series of natural events that trigger a metamorphosis, completely explainable and lacking anything deeper or more meaningful. I look at the same event and I see a message, an example, to us of our existance and the glory to come. It is very profound and distinctly spiritual to me, while at the same time lacking any spiritual signifigance to you. To the spiritual mind, the 'how' is not the important part, it's the 'why'. I cannot speak for people that live in vegetative states, I have never been in one. I know that we have sensitive instruments that can detect physical signs of life, such as brainwaves, but at the same time I believe that we are spiritual beings living in physical bodies, and I have no clue on where these people are or what they are experiencing spiritually. Saying this, I cannot say what the 'merciful' thing for God to do should be. I say that God sustains life, but that doesn't mean that He rules over it. He has given control over to us and it is the path of a Christian to give it back to Him. He only rules where He is allowed to. He could force Himself through if He chose too, but this would cause Him to violate His Word and would shatter our freewill, which He has so lovingly given us. So where is ones soul or what is it doing in a vegetative state ? What is your theory ? I'm not saying we don't have a soul but I always wondered about this. My mother was in a coma and then in a vegetative state and eventually passed. We seemed to communicate through dreams or mine. (but this may have been emotional compensation on my part) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMachine Posted September 9, 2007 #93 Share Posted September 9, 2007 i dont feel you have the right to judge it. you know what i see? happy people. Happy people who fear for the eternal life of any loved ones who might just decide not to be a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted September 9, 2007 #94 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Happy people who fear for the eternal life of any loved ones who might just decide not to be a Christian. is that bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMachine Posted September 10, 2007 #95 Share Posted September 10, 2007 is that bad? Is it bad if a relative of yours who you love very much makes the final decision to not be a Christian? I don't think so, but it might disrupt your happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skim Milky Posted September 10, 2007 #96 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Is it bad if a relative of yours who you love very much makes the final decision to not be a Christian? I don't think so, but it might disrupt your happiness. they have the right to choose as they wish, of course. its saddening for those who do believe, the thought of eternity without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMachine Posted September 10, 2007 #97 Share Posted September 10, 2007 they have the right to choose as they wish, of course. its saddening for those who do believe, the thought of eternity without them. Exactly. It's not a true happiness, unless you can bring yourself to let go of your feelings for people. However, I'm not saying that it's a hard thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llucid Posted September 10, 2007 #98 Share Posted September 10, 2007 So where is ones soul or what is it doing in a vegetative state ? What is your theory ? I'm not saying we don't have a soul but I always wondered about this. My mother was in a coma and then in a vegetative state and eventually passed. We seemed to communicate through dreams or mine. (but this may have been emotional compensation on my part) Well, it's a tough question that I don't readily have an answer for. From my studies in the scriptures, I don't believe, generally speaking, that people immediately go to Heaven or Hell when they die. Before a person goes to either, they have to be judged, and this judgement doesn't seem to take place until after the last seven years of earth (Tribulation or 70th Week of Daniel) and before the Millennial rule of Christ on the new earth. This timeline is from taking a literal approach to Revelation. If I remember correctly, the early believers referred to death as 'sleep' and it very well my be that we simply sleep until we are appointed to wake. Those in Christ are appointed to wake at the Rapture of the Church and they ascend into the clouds to take part in what as known as the 'Marriage Supper of the Lamb', a sort of party to wait until the last seven years are up. Those who aren't in Christ don't arise until after the last seven years of earth. Keeping this in mind, it might be that those in comas and other vegetative states might be experiencing this 'sleep', a complete sensory deprivation and lack of time. Like I said, though, this is just a theory. I could be completely wrong. There have been people who have gone to Heaven, and others who have been given glimpses of it, but I generally find this to be an exception. If anyone else has any insight on this when it comes to Biblical scriptures, I would definately be interested in hearing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momentarylapseofreason Posted September 10, 2007 #99 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Well, it's a tough question that I don't readily have an answer for. From my studies in the scriptures, I don't believe, generally speaking, that people immediately go to Heaven or Hell when they die. Before a person goes to either, they have to be judged, and this judgement doesn't seem to take place until after the last seven years of earth (Tribulation or 70th Week of Daniel) and before the Millennial rule of Christ on the new earth. This timeline is from taking a literal approach to Revelation. If I remember correctly, the early believers referred to death as 'sleep' and it very well my be that we simply sleep until we are appointed to wake. Those in Christ are appointed to wake at the Rapture of the Church and they ascend into the clouds to take part in what as known as the 'Marriage Supper of the Lamb', a sort of party to wait until the last seven years are up. Those who aren't in Christ don't arise until after the last seven years of earth. Keeping this in mind, it might be that those in comas and other vegetative states might be experiencing this 'sleep', a complete sensory deprivation and lack of time. Like I said, though, this is just a theory. I could be completely wrong. There have been people who have gone to Heaven, and others who have been given glimpses of it, but I generally find this to be an exception. If anyone else has any insight on this when it comes to Biblical scriptures, I would definately be interested in hearing about it. Thanks Llucid, that's ineresting. It really does make one wonder what happens in this state ,if we really do have a soul. I'm kind of curious from an esoteric perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Write Posted September 10, 2007 #100 Share Posted September 10, 2007 (edited) It would mean we were meant be this ignorant, this violent, and this dishonest. It would condemn us to stay that way forever. We'd lose the right to reengineer our minds and bodies because it's sacrilege to tamper with "perfection." It would mean that somewhere in the Cosmos is an all-powerful, all-knowing being that is as petty and f---ed up as we are. It would make every evil done in the name of religion okay, going back thousands of years. ...and finally... It would mean we gotta do Armageddon. I personally know a great many Christians who are excited about the End Time. "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." Because as everybody knows, there can be only one winner when the God game ends. - MW Edited September 10, 2007 by Mister Write Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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