Kaaba and the Black Stone.

[eqgumby]

I think youre full of it, pal.

But I like you anyway

I still don't know where you got the Jesus loves you bit. Whatever.

[libra II]

I still don't know where you got the Jesus loves you bit. Whatever.

Whatever

Take care, lad

[eqgumby]

Whatever

Take care, lad

And so another debate ends, with an accusation and no proof to back it up. Thanks for proving my point.

I still find it interesting that Islam is as surrounded by pagan trappings as is Christianity. It seems no religion is as pure as it claims.

[Grandpa Greenman]

And so another debate ends, with an accusation and no proof to back it up. Thanks for proving my point.

I still find it interesting that Islam is as surrounded by pagan trappings as is Christianity. It seems no religion is as pure as it claims.

I have to agree with that. Every religion has parts of older religions in them. It is natural for people to build on what they already know.

[odas]

I have to agree with that. Every religion has parts of older religions in them. It is natural for people to build on what they already know.

I agree.

Not every pagan religion was about human sacrifieces. Relgion started somehow. I believe even Pagan religions were misinterpretated with time.

What is more interesting is that once in a while we have men ( messengers ) showing up and call us back to the initial believe. Which means (for me at least) that at the begingig there was only one religion whose true meaning always got lost in time and interpretation.

Edit: Spelling. Oh God, I suck.

Edited November 21, 2007 by odas

[capoeiranger]

^Well, religions does developed from pagan beliefs.

[Demon Chipmunk]

i n nothig about the muslim religion only whaT THEY TEACH ME IN SCHOOL WICH IS VERY ITTLE

[capoeiranger]

Well, reading this thread from page one might get you know better.

[chaosdarksoulz]

Seeing as how things may have cooled down, i think this is the perfect opportunity to make one final comment....

For Muslims

As far as my knowledge serves me, you believe in what has been revealed to you by Allah, that includes all the prophets (pbut) and all the holy books and scriptures. It has been revealed to you that Abraham (pbuh) and his son Ismael (pbuh) built the holy Ka'bah, that ancient Arabia was originally inhabited by Muslims before pagans came, that there never was 3 daughters of Allah and that Allah is not a moon god, that this is the beliefs held by the people at the time of Abraham (pbuh) i.e his father, the villagers etc...

Without being disrespectful may i say that no one has shown you a video of the Ka'bah being built or to the pagans or anyone else as a matter of fact. No one has received a letter delivered by an angel to them granting them paradise or confirmation of a true religion...

What i am trying to say is, that for Muslims, for you, your proof is your belief, your proof lies within what you are trying to prove

e.g Prove the Qur'an is from Allah... want proof? read it...

You will agree with me that it all comes down to belief, i mean a Muslim is a person who submits their will to Allah right? So whatever someone says about Ka'bah or Islam, your belief will not change and if it does, then that aint right is it? Islam isn't as straight forward as you think, being a part...yes but understanding..no...

So believe in your beliefs for no archeology or science can take that away from you.

For non Muslims and the original poster

You have your own faith, your own gods, spirits, forces, Gaea or whatever it may be. But your faith is the right one for you and you are convinced of that. You maybe a Christian, Jew or even a pagan... but no one can change your beliefs but you. Neither have any of you been given any divine revelation to you by an angel or earth spirit have you? But you still believe because you have faith, you choose to believe and thats what gives you your strength to continue to believe. You believe in your scriptures just as much as the next guy if not more. Your religion has become entwined with you... so be happy to know that a part of your religion is rooted within another.

With that being said, its kind of funny aint it. I mean, 90% of us are in the religion we are because we were born into it. But how many Muslims would be a Muslim if they were born into Christianity... and how many Christians would be a Christian had they been born into Islam? How many of you truly believe on your religion, or have submitted to it, or have truly accepted a faith or no faith by your own free will of choice through process of elimination? I didn't but i searched for answers and i am still trying to become devoted.

I suggest you all do the same.

Edited November 26, 2007 by jaks.ko.ex

[Grandpa Greenman]

The last word.

that ancient Arabia was originally inhabited by Muslims before pagans came

By tradition Abraham was born in Ur which was part of the Babylonian. The people of Babylon were polytheist evidenced by the books of faith they left behind.

So whatever someone says about Ka'bah or Islam, your belief will not change and if it does, then that aint right is it?

Would that be up to each person wouldn't it. If your religion can't stand up to a little scrutiny and question then I am sorry. Explore and question is what makes us human. When we are children question every thing. Some where along the way we lose it the control freaks.

Neither have any of you been given any divine revelation to you by an angel or earth spirit have you?

Don't be so sure about that.

How many of you truly believe on your religion, or have submitted to it, or have truly accepted a faith or no faith by your own free will of choice through process of elimination?

I was called to my faith. The process of elimination came from finding the religion that match what was revealed to me. It was there all the time, but it was something I had to find for myself. I am lucky to have been born in a country where I free to follow the religion of my choice with out repercussions.

[chaosdarksoulz]

I was called to my faith. The process of elimination came from finding the religion that match what was revealed to me. It was there all the time, but it was something I had to find for myself. I am lucky to have been born in a country where I free to follow the religion of my choice with out repercussions.

Wah?! Please don't tell me your indirectly trying to say Muslims are forced to be Muslims? Notice I said indirectly, that means hinting towards something without actually saying it...

Would that be up to each person wouldn't it.* If your religion can't stand up to a little scrutiny and question then I am sorry. Explore and question is what makes us human. When we are children question every thing. **Some where along the way we lose it the control freaks.

*What? We can question Islams originality using paganism but we cant question paganism using Islam?

**No one can control you or make you do things without your consent. ( Don't bother mentioning 'force or forced to do so'. 'Control' (mastery or proficiency) come from overpowering and submission from the other side, while 'force' (coercion) is an invasion of freedom done by actual or threatened harm.)

[EmpressStarXVII]

This has really become silly. How about agree to disagree

[chaosdarksoulz]

This has really become silly. How about agree to disagree

Yeah, funny how we've strayed from the original discussion. Its become pointless to continue now...

[Grandpa Greenman]

Yup, it has.

Countries with the law of sharia force people to obey Islamic law whether they are Muslim or not. There is a teacher in Sudan facing 40 lashes as we speak because of a teddy bear name Mohammad. Is that clear enough for you.

I didn't question Islam using Paganism, I used archeology and science. You can do the same with Paganism. Many of the things Pagan people believe about the history of Paganism are wrong. When you point it out them they take it rather well for most part. I can't question one religion with another religion. One is my favorite authors is Ron Hutton a great historian who blows a lot of perceived Pagan history out of the water.

Now that I have had the last word maybe I can have the Mods close the thread if y'all like.

[Tiggs]

Thread closed as per OP's request.