Can man create God?

[Buddharat]

I just want to start this off by saying that this post is not intended to attack any religion at all, it's just a theory that I'm trying to get some feedback on. This is something that has been really interesting me for quite sometime and I'm just curious what other people think.

That said, I'll start with the background of this theory. As I've seen before, people seem to have the power to manifest ideas; whether it's through magick, prayer, etc; even if it's just on a small scale. It's also been demonstrated, through scientific programs like "Fire the Grid", that mass consciousness experiments have a profound effect and can enact change, thus manifesting the idea they are putting forth.

So, if prayer, magick, mass consciousness experiments are possible (which I personally believe), does this mean we can manifest God?

I know that might seem crazy to some, and maybe even hard to wrap your mind around for others (I know I've been trying to wrap my brain around it for a while), but bear with me a little bit longer. I just want to bring up one example of this: Cthulhu.

Cthulhu is a creation out of the mind of H P Lovecraft, but despite being a fictional creatures, people believe in it. I have even read about how some magick users have gone as far as summoning Cthulhu for this rituals, and things happen announcing it's arrival. So, how could a fictional creature because a possible realistic god? So, I'm going to go a little Neil Gaiman on you here, but I think he's onto something. In his book "American Gods", the old gods were dying out because people didn't believe in them anymore, but new Gods were being created from people starting to believe in them. (I wanted to point out that that idea was in that book before someone says I nicked it ) That's basically the theory that I'm researching and looking to get ideas.

So, I want to say one more time, I'm not trying to challenge any religion, I'm just curious what people think about this theory. I'm hoping it will spark some interesting ideas and thoughts (and I'm also hoping I don't make any enemies or p*** anyone off, cause that's not my intent ). Thank you for reading.

~V

[8th_wall]

Creating God in that way would still require that He created us. Since we live on a cronological scale of time the being that would be created wouldn't have been physically able to create us and therefore wouldn't be the God we interpret Him to be.

[Buddharat]

Creating God in that way would still require that He created us. Since we live on a cronological scale of time the being that would be created wouldn't have been physically able to create us and therefore wouldn't be the God we interpret Him to be.

I completely understand where you're going with that. I fear I must not have explained my idea enough though. I'm not talking about just god in the christian or catholic sense, but all gods. If you look at the practice of magick; practitioners call upon a variety of dieties to add them, whether they are Greek gods, Celtic, etc, with good results. From what I hear (because I don't practice using dieties), high level users can actually commune with the dieties. Does this mean all the gods ever believed in all existed and created us? Or does that mean that because people believed in them so much, we infact created them? That's where I'm going with this. I guess in my head I don't take creationism into account.

[8th_wall]

I completely understand where you're going with that. I fear I must not have explained my idea enough though. I'm not talking about just god in the christian or catholic sense, but all gods. If you look at the practice of magick; practitioners call upon a variety of dieties to add them, whether they are Greek gods, Celtic, etc, with good results. From what I hear (because I don't practice using dieties), high level users can actually commune with the dieties. Does this mean all the gods ever believed in all existed and created us? Or does that mean that because people believed in them so much, we infact created them? That's where I'm going with this. I guess in my head I don't take creationism into account.

Isn't it assumed that the creator is greater than the created?

[Buddharat]

Isn't it assumed that the creator is greater than the created?

It may be assumed, but I'm not sure how that addresses the issue. I'm sorry. I guess where I'm going with this theory, the people creating the god (those that believe in the god) doesn't really know they created the god. Follow? The god is created as a byproduct of the people's belief in it.

[BazookaTooth]

Man did cunjure up Gods, within the mind.

[chrisfreak]

It may be assumed, but I'm not sure how that addresses the issue. I'm sorry. I guess where I'm going with this theory, the people creating the god (those that believe in the god) doesn't really know they created the god. Follow? The god is created as a byproduct of the people's belief in it.

Actually I understand what Buddharat was trying to say... in fact, I thought the same thing some time ago...

I believe that people mind and belief has a very strong "force"..

I remember I read somewhere that Dalai Lama can create an entity just by imagining it and meditation in 6 months. This entity will come alive, and it can be evil or good. This entity can't be seen by human though... (I forgot what it's called, I'll come back later if I can find the article)... and I think this is one of the proofs of the power of human mind and belief

Edited September 12, 2007 by chrisfreak

[Buddharat]

I remember I read somewhere that Dalai Lama can create an entity just by imagining it and meditation in 6 months. This entity will come alive, and it can be evil or good. This entity can't be seen by human though... (I forgot what it's called, I'll come back later if I can find the article)... and I think this is one of the proof of human mind and belief

Huh, that's really nifty. I never knew he said that. That's really interesting, I'm going to look into that. Thanks!!

[thedeveloper]

I know that might seem crazy to some, and maybe even hard to wrap your mind around for others (I know I've been trying to wrap my brain around it for a while)...

You are confusing yourself. There is nothing to "wrap your brain around." It is just made up silliness/stories. It is no more confusing or hard to understand than Jack and the Beanstalk or Little Red Riding Hood. If it was REAL and actually had complicated, in-depth laws (like physics, for example) then it would make sense to say things like "I've been trying to wrap my brain around it." But there is nothing. You pick up the story book. You read the story. You understand. It's that simple. You are trying to give credibility to your "magick" whatever it is by acting like it is some sort of a complex system. It's not. It's just a story.

...high level users can actually commune with the deities.

High level users? You mean people who have read a lot of story books on the "subject"? Come on, get real. I challenge you to prove to me that "magick" (it's spelled magic by the way) is real. Can't do it? Thought so.

I remember I read somewhere that Dalai Lama can create an entity just by imagining it and meditation in 6 months. This entity will come alive, and it can be evil or good. This entity can't be seen by human though... (I forgot what it's called, I'll come back later if I can find the article)... and I think this is one of the proofs of the power of human mind and belief.

Ummm.. yeah. I'm sure if that was possible someone would have recorded it on video tape by now? It's not a proof until its actually well documented and verifiable. Someone telling a story about how awesome he is because he can create beings by the power of his mind is not "proof."

[Leonardo]

Creating God in that way would still require that He created us. Since we live on a cronological scale of time the being that would be created wouldn't have been physically able to create us and therefore wouldn't be the God we interpret Him to be.

What if we created God and then He recreated us? As for the creator being greater than the created, it's not necessarily the case as we do not really know what the power of imagination is. We can imagine God, does that not make us as great as He?

Buddharat,

I think what chrisfreak is referring to is a thoughtform (Wiki article). While unsubstantiated except in anecdotal evidence, if such a creation was possible it would explain how we could create a god.

[mytruebody]

You are confusing yourself. There is nothing to "wrap your brain around." It is just made up silliness/stories. It is no more confusing or hard to understand than Jack and the Beanstalk or Little Red Riding Hood. If it was REAL and actually had complicated, in-depth laws (like physics, for example) then it would make sense to say things like "I've been trying to wrap my brain around it." But there is nothing. You pick up the story book. You read the story. You understand. It's that simple. You are trying to give credibility to your "magick" whatever it is by acting like it is some sort of a complex system. It's not. It's just a story.

theosophy, dungeons & dragons, and hermetic magick all have "complicated, in-depth laws". obviously, some people put a lot of faith into all three of those things, but that complexity or that faith doesn't give them an ounce of credibility. newton's third law of motion, on the other hand, is quite simple, but that doesn't make it any less valid or "real". complexity doesn't imply credibility or reality and there are plenty of perfectly intelligent people who have trouble "wrapping their brains around" dungeons & dragons, which is, after all, "just a story."

there's also a perfectly good reason for spelling "magick" with a k. (perfectly good if you're a thelemite, anyway.) you should probably check up on that.

anyway, buddharat, i don't believe you can summon cthulhu, or any other deity. essentially what you're asking is, "does chaos magick work?" of course it does, but not for any "supernatural" reasons. you can't summon a deity, but you can invoke the qualities of that deity, regardless of how made up it is, through ritual, which isn't anything more than focusing intently on absorbing its qualities. humans are ritualistic animals and there's no shame in it. whether you want to absorb the aspects of mickey mouse or osiris (and i don't mean physical aspects, obviously), you're essentially programming yourself to mentally take on those qualities for the time being. it's just plain old psychology.

[SilverCougar]

The human mind is an odd thing. It often forgets it's beginnings, yet uses it's imagination to creat many things. Including the mythologies surrounding how we came to be. Gods, all gods, any gods, Goddessess as well... All created by the human imagination as it tries to explain things that it cannot. We don't know how we came to be. We most likely will never know. Some will take solice in the fact that a god or goddess created us. Some will take solice that we were a random chance that evolved over millions of years.

We are creators in our own right. We create things out of our driven minds, out of our poetic and artful imaginations. But, we also try to hold to something that is our own creation to comfort our fears of the unknown. Just as we as children, feared the monster in the closet that our imaginations told us was there... we fear there is nothing for us after we die. We fear that maybe we were nothing more then a chance happening, and that there was no purpous for us. That is why we needed gods. To give us a feeling of purpous. To calm our fears that we will have that life after our bodies end. To give reasons to things we never understood.

Gods exists in our minds. We are the gods... They our aspects of our own mind, our own power, our own crativity, and our own imaginations. From Zues, to Bast, to Coyote, to the abrahamic god.

[shantiel]

Creating God in that way would still require that He created us. Since we live on a cronological scale of time the being that would be created wouldn't have been physically able to create us and therefore wouldn't be the God we interpret Him to be.

Yeah, no kidding, people generally think of the beginning as being God.

[Devol]

I understand what you're saying/asking, Buddharat. I've my own ideas on the matter, but the one of greatest importance to this is that mankind has created God, in various aspects. That's not to say that there is no God or that mankind is responsible for the existence of Divinity, rather that every personality trait associated with any God is manmade. Mankind has created an everpresent awareness through prayer, mass consciousness, etc. (that may be what you choose to deem as God) but there is a power that's been present much longer than man. Call it what you will, but it's there. Cue the atheist zealots.

[Grandpa Greenman]

In the old African religions they believe we created Gods by believing in them. I know a local Pagan group who I share circle with often who have created their own Goddess. They even talk to her in a special language and there is a shrine for her on the land we use for ritual. My theory is when you create a God a being will step in to the role. I treat their Goddess with great reverence and respect. I give offerings to her in ritual.

[Buddharat]

I know a local Pagan group who I share circle with often who have created their own Goddess. They even talk to her in a special language and there is a shrine for her on the land we use for ritual. My theory is when you create a God a being will step in to the role. I treat their Goddess with great reverence and respect. I give offerings to her in ritual.

That's actually something I was thinking about experimenting with. I damn my horrible memory, but I know there was a group of scientists a few years back that was supposed to have created a ghost out of just believing in it. I wish I could remember the group and hopefully, one day I will. It's just something that's really interesting and I was thinking heavily about testing, just to see if I could do it. Thanks for the imput, if at anytime you could provide more information as to the process they went through, I would love to hear it. Thanks!

[Heru]

If you like lovecraft and are intrested in this stuff read up on Simon Necronomicon. But be careful I hear not even the Pentagram will work on some of the stuff in there. Fiction or not its a working system.

And yes its possible to create a God you just need alot of people and a object for them to focus on.

Study on Choas magic, mostly servitors(how ever you spell it) for a "start" on how to do it.

[chaoszerg]

I myself think Mankind did a great job at creating God or God's....but the only problem is when mankind started to believe we were created from the creation we conjured up in our minds. I hope this does not upset anyone..sorry if it does.

[Gail1]

So, if prayer, magick, mass consciousness experiments are possible (which I personally believe), does this mean we can manifest God?

Of course. We, the co-creators, when seen in total, are the god (creator) that you speak of. Every moment that you are alive - whether in body or not in body, your experience becomes god's experience, as does mine. Therefore, the reverse is true, though this culture has not been taught how to use our innate psychic powers so that we can consciously access this knowledge. (an easy enough thing to do with a few days worth of practice)

This is, in essence, the message of Jesus. (Where two or more are gathered together ...) (Believe that you can move a mountain and you can move a mountain) (The Kingdom of heaven is WITHIN you) (I am the light of the world AND you are the light of the world)

It was the god of Moses tell them I AM send me)

It is embedded in the book of Genesis where god was both plural and singular

It is inherent in the "split universe theory" of quantum mechanics.

I call myself a multi-dimensional existentialist as an effort to explain my existence to myself. An existentialist believes that there is none other than the self. A multi-dimensional existentialist sounds like an oxymoron, and in some sense is, but it accepts the fact that if there is only one, then each one of us are who and what we are as our greater selves.

[Heru]

Uhhh.

How many of you replying actualy know what your talking about. As in actualy study and practice the occult cause some of you are posting some out there replys.

It takes a little more than faith im sorry to burst alot of peoples bubbles there.

But if you are serious read up on Chaos magic (or one that fits your belief system) and ask questions on forums specialy for this kinda stuff. While this site is good for sh*ts and giggles its not a place for serious study.

[SilverCougar]

Studying shaman of a decade and a half. Study of human nature for much longer.

[8th_wall]

What if we created God and then He recreated us? As for the creator being greater than the created, it's not necessarily the case as we do not really know what the power of imagination is. We can imagine God, does that not make us as great as He?

How can something be created twice without completely destroying the original? If we are equal to God then why do we need God?

[thedeveloper]

Wow. This thread is full of mystical guru's who act like the supernatural is flat fact and think they know all sorts of intricate stuff about spiritualism and magic and whatever it is you are talking about.

To bad not a single one of you can show me how I can replicate ANYTHING considered by the general population to be "supernatural."

I'm open to suggestions. Tell me out to have an OBE, tell me how to see a ghost, tell me how to talk with a spirit, tell me how to float around the room, tell me how to "do a magic spell," and I'll give it a sincere and honest try.

But we all know you wont, and even if you do, nothing will happen.

Pure fantasy.

[Buddharat]

Tell me out to have an OBE,

Actually, the new popular science tells you how to have an OBE. It's been in the news lately how scientists have been able to replicate them on demand.

But I completely believe your skeptism, and I'm not even sure what I believe. I believe in ghosts because I saw one. I would never try to convince anyone that ghosts are real. This was just a hypothetical thread I made from some ideas that I was mulling over and I wanted to get other peoples points of view. Thank you for yours.

[8th_wall]

Wow. This thread is full of mystical guru's who act like the supernatural is flat fact and think they know all sorts of intricate stuff about spiritualism and magic and whatever it is you are talking about.

To bad not a single one of you can show me how I can replicate ANYTHING considered by the general population to be "supernatural."

I'm open to suggestions. Tell me out to have an OBE, tell me how to see a ghost, tell me how to talk with a spirit, tell me how to float around the room, tell me how to "do a magic spell," and I'll give it a sincere and honest try.

But we all know you wont, and even if you do, nothing will happen.

Pure fantasy.

Lol I'm skeptical about most of the stuff that's discussed but I still try and see where people come from. Blind dismissal seems foolish to me.