Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?

[Archosaur]

I was under the impression the dragon battle was not a vision, but an event witnessed by many people. This is an important event in my book, concerning two important dragons involved in a non-lethal contest to decided whether the Romano British or Germanics should control Britain, something that would have important reprecussions much later on.

Makes sense. One description of the legend has them come out of the ground, fighting, in front of everyone.

[Nik Xues]

you can beleive psychic power and geno therapy over my theory

but do not assume that shapeshifting implies magic

bk2pt

i seem to recall a lizard that looked like the modern komodo but way bigger

it lived during the rise of mammalia

going by komodo traits these may be at least the serpents [dragons] that were slain in myth

do you recall the basilisk and cockatrice

[draconic chronicler]

you can beleive psychic power and geno therapy over my theory

but do not assume that shapeshifting implies magic

bk2pt

i seem to recall a lizard that looked like the modern komodo but way bigger

it lived during the rise of mammalia

going by komodo traits these may be at least the serpents [dragons] that were slain in myth

do you recall the basilisk and cockatrice

What you do not seem to understand is that if these were normal, mortal creatures with normal lifespans, literally millions, if not billions, would have had to have lived and died in the past 65 milion years since the Cretaceous extincition and end of the dinosaurs and we would have found their remains by now. And remember, every human culture acknowledged these creatures, and that they were more intelligent than humans. Our ancestors would not have believed this if they were simply lizards.

So if dragons died we would find their remains in ancient and medieval contexts, and if anyone killed one, its remains would have been worth a fortune and displayed in churches and temples, just as prehistoric fossils were. But if we imagine a dragon as an enormous, intelligent, predatory creature, who but a fool would think ancient or medieval man could kill one? Just because somebody claimed they did in a story? We call these "lies", "bragging" and "tall tales".

[Nik Xues]

i get you. i was trying to be open minded.

explaining the serpents [also refered to as dragon's] of the slayer myths with some science

and as i recall almost everyman who slays a "dragon" dies of their poisen.

that made me think of a komodo's specialty

the slayer myths may be unrelated to your case. People who saw these reptiles might have confused them with your dragons

i will avoid discussing this further to preserve the debates flavour around divinity of "plumed serpents" [thats the maian term].

Edited November 29, 2007 by Nik Xues

[draconic chronicler]

i get you. i was trying to be open minded.

explaining the serpents [also refered to as dragon's] of the slayer myths with some science

and as i recall almost everyman who slays a "dragon" dies of their poisen.

that made me think of a komodo's specialty

the slayer myths may be unrelated to your case. People who saw these reptiles might have confused them with your dragons

i will avoid discussing this further to preserve the debates flavour around divinity of "plumed serpents" [thats the maian term].

The Komodo dragons were not discovered until 1911 as I recall, and considering this is Indonesia, could not be connected with the "intelligent" dragons believed in by virtully every human culture, and often considered to be "Gods". Becasue dragons were often considered Gods, and the most formidible of all creatures, it was natural "tall tales" of humans slaying them were invented. This does not mean they killed a lizard that looked like a dragon. It means they are simply liars. But understand when the lies originated someone probably see a dragon leave an area and then claim they drove it off in a fight. The liar-slayer may have even thown some blood around to make the story seem more believable. He could not say he actually killed the dragon becasue there was not body. But over the years, the ficticious "battle" would be exaggerated and people began to claim a dragon was killed, but it was long ago no one knew where the bones were. But the stories had some credibility, because everyone believed the dragons were real with reports of whole cities sometimes watching fly over. It is similar to UFOs today. Millions of people believe in them though there is no physical evidence they exist. But like UFOs, there are thousands of ancient thru 19th century accounts of dragons, and they play a role in virtually every ancient human religion.

[Nik Xues]

i was incenuating that they may have never fought

and are just stupid enough to call a lizard a dragon.

humans are obviosly dumb enough to beleive the "liar-slayer" either way

so why not consider the prior as a possibilty

besides why do you need to get so defensive your opinions are valid. We are discussing this you know. with 4000 yrs to veil our veiw into the past, how distorted is the entire world's history

leaving room for freindly conjecture.

[little bear]

I have found a dragon, over it took ten years to get there, and six months to see it, ten more years to understand it. Well, I still do not. But I must say that the bible as far as I am concerned is deceptive. The truth is not within a book, it is within ourselves. There is good and evil and the both makes a whole. Dragon represents illumination of spirit, and the dragon I have found...

[draconic chronicler]

i was incenuating that they may have never fought

and are just stupid enough to call a lizard a dragon.

humans are obviosly dumb enough to beleive the "liar-slayer" either way

so why not consider the prior as a possibilty

besides why do you need to get so defensive your opinions are valid. We are discussing this you know. with 4000 yrs to veil our veiw into the past, how distorted is the entire world's history

leaving room for freindly conjecture.

The reason these dragons in world wide legends cannot simply be large lizards, is becasue, even if no one killed one, they would still die, and leave millions of skeletons. But in all the places where there are loads of dragon "sightings", like Europe, the biggest lizard is only about nine inches long. Now if Komodo dragons had a cousin called "British dragons" and we found their bones in Britiain, we would know that dragon legends were probably based on this creature. But since so many dragon sighting record them in the air, they must be a winged creature and not a traditional lizard or crocodile. And the Europeans were already familiar with crocodiles since the Roman times. Even in Britian, a popular Roman art motiff was realistic scenes of the flora and fauna along the nile river, and we see realisitic depictions of these real animals. But in the same house you may also see scenes of maidens riding on the backs of long necked reptilian dragons which these people knew were not lizards or crocodiles.

[Nik Xues]

sorry no way to explain the lack of corpses just yet

also you bring up a good point with art

revuing my horribly limited sources ive noticed some dragons do not have wings

and yet some of those wingless dragons can fly [chinese]

a lot of draons are connected to sun worship

babylonian, maian, and judaism [right?] to name some

i ll see if i can find more

thatd be funny if the count went to 70

[tipsy_munchkin]

If they are real creatures why were the western ones all so mean and in need of slaying but the oriental ones were mostly benevolent. Thoguh the dragon myth is common in many cultures it is not the same character in all. Also dragons are not always depicted with wings. Chinese dragons and early norse dragons didn't. Are you saying these very early myths are a different species? I am currently more inclined to see them as symbolic, and this symbolism varies between cultures. There is also the idea that some legends were based upon the shape of a fiery comet. many unexplained events can contribute to the evolution of a myth.

[draconic chronicler]

If they are real creatures why were the western ones all so mean and in need of slaying but the oriental ones were mostly benevolent. Thoguh the dragon myth is common in many cultures it is not the same character in all. Also dragons are not always depicted with wings. Chinese dragons and early norse dragons didn't. Are you saying these very early myths are a different species? I am currently more inclined to see them as symbolic, and this symbolism varies between cultures. There is also the idea that some legends were based upon the shape of a fiery comet. many unexplained events can contribute to the evolution of a myth.

Your silly "bad western dragon" stereotypes have nothing to do with the actual evidence. Open a Medieval Bible to the book of Pslams and you will miniature illustrations of God riding on the back of his trusy dragon. Or go to Numbers as see pictures of winged dragons sent by God to punish the disobedient Israelites. They are called the Seraphim and are the hidghest heavenly creatures. Go further west and we see chariots of the Greek Gods be pulled by dragons, or dragons guarding the sacred orchards of the Gods. Even Zeus liked to turn back into a dragon to have sex with human women. The Celts as well regarded dragons as wise creatures associated with the Gods.

So where do the Western "Evil dragn stories come from? Just from the ignorant Northern Barbarians who lived in huts of twigs and dung and accomplished nothing for thousands of years. So if you use a little logic, we might assume that dragons like to be around civilized people who orginally regareded them as their earliest Gods. But being carnivorous creatures, it seems they flew to the forests of Northern Europe to claw open the twig and dung mead halls to eat the fat hopelessly drunk barbarians as is even alluded to in the Beowulf poem (though the devouring of a large number of men in one night was rather stupidly attributed to a human sized troll instead).

I bet you also didn't know that Yes, some of the oldest depictions of Chinese dragons DO have wings, and the Chinese legends themselves say the earliest dragons had wings. It was only after less dragons were seen, that they began to look more fanciful, such as flying without wings.

And people in those times really were not as stupid as you think. They knew the difference between dragons and comets. They fed dragons animals and even children according to the records, and they liked to drink beer. Do you really think comets eat and drink as they said the dragons did?

Why would virtually the whole ancient world make dragons their Gods? Just because they found a few large fossil bones? Why would they think such a potentially ferocious beast would teach them technology, domestication, agriculture, etc?

[The Gremlin]

hi, thought id be better off posting this link than repeating myself ad nauseum.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=1655220

its a heafty thread, but quite amusing.

[Angel077]

I would like to quote Genesis 1:1 2-25 : Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (NIV) Let's take a look at this passage. The G-d we are referring to here is YHWH the creator of the universe. He said, "Let us make man in our image." Last time I walked down the street I didn't see any dragon people with scales, breathing fire and the like. I saw people that pretty much all look the same as each other. So if we are made in the image of G-d its doubtful that he's a dragon. I'm no expert in religion, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in some of the passages I have read in the bible it also says G-d is spirit and he is omnipresent which means he is always everywhere at once. If you are a follower of Christianity then you believe that Jesus is G-d. If Jesus is G-d then G-d is a middle eastern man, and he probably looks like he's about 33 yrs old. If he's middle eastern he probaly has dark skin medium length dark brown hair as many people in that region of the world had at that time, and has a full beard and mustache. This is quite different than the pictures you see him normally portrayed as with blond hair and blue or brown eyes and white caucasian skin. In allot of Jewish theology it is believed that YHWH has both masculine and feminine attributes. However this belief in a G-d with both feminine and masculine attributes has not been mentioned much in modern popular Jewish beliefs. After some thought about what G-d might look like I came to this as a conclusion. He/ she made everything in the universe, if he/ she has the ability to do this I must imagine there's really not anything that he/ she can't do, or make himself/ herself look like. The really interesting part of this passage is the word, "Our". Our image and our likeness. So who is he/ she talking about when he/ she is saying our? I have my own theories about this but I'll save it for some other time. Its my opinion that if we all get to see the face of G-d or YHWH when we die then we'll be able to see what he/ she looks like then. I'd like to see what he/ she looks like too,and I have about a million questions for him/her but I'm in no hurry I can wait. There's too much to do while were alive you know. Heres a cool picture I found of what G-d might look like.

Happy Chanukah, Merry Christmas, Happy Quanzah, Happy New Year, and Happy Festivas!

Edited December 1, 2007 by Angel077

[sickpuppy]

The really interesting part of this passage is the word, "Our". Our image and our likeness. So who is he/ she talking about when he/ she is saying our?

originally in bibles etc, G-d was called "Elohim" (which is a uni-plural in the same way as house is to people and church is to congregation) ..do the math

that pic you posted has common symbolism in it, it's almost burgouis hehe.. the eye, and what seems to be 7 rings/layers just under it.. (nothing groundbreaking there.. why do you think God sits in a chair in the sky?)

[Angel077]

originally in bibles etc, G-d was called "Elohim" (which is a uni-plural in the same way as house is to people and church is to congregation) ..do the math

that pic you posted has common symbolism in it, it's almost burgouis hehe.. the eye, and what seems to be 7 rings/layers just under it.. (nothing groundbreaking there.. why do you think God sits in a chair in the sky?)

I guess you didn't really read what I posted. I believe that I mentioned that I'm no expert in the field of religion / theology, and I also believe that I suggested that I believe that I think G-d can choose to look like whatever he pleases. If you have ever read the Old Testament it's in the book of Exodus that G-d appeared as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. It also says that when Moses went up on Mt. Sinai to meet with G-d that he was the only one who was able to see him the way he is and live. Moses tells the Hebrew people that the 10 commandments were given to him by G-d, that they were written in the language of G-d, by G-d directly and not written by hands of Moses. Moses later states in the book of Exodus when the ancient Hebrews became unhappy about serving G-d that G-d gave them a language to read and write with that is the actual language of G-d. If you ask most biblical scholars they will tell you if you want to read and understand the Old Testament in the way it was originally written you have to be able to read Hebrew. The translations from hebrew to greek, and all the other translations afterwards slightly changes some of the meaning of the Old Testament. This leaves the reader at the will and beliefs of the translator I even read this statement in the preface of the New International Version of the Bible (NIV). Either way thanks for the reply to my post, just like G-d I learned to accept everyone as they are even you. As for the picture I found it somewhere on the internet when I was looking for pictures of the garden of eden.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Angel077

[Angel077]

Besides the fact that I'm using the New and Old Testaments to share my opinion on this topic. There are so many religions in the world, and in them I'm sure the description of G-d / G-d's vary from religion to religion. Besides Jesus even says in the New Testament,"My fathers house has many rooms." This within itself is an open and obvious statement.

Happy Chanukah, Merry Christmas, Happy Quanzah, Happy New Year, and Happy Festivus

Edited December 1, 2007 by Angel077

[draconic chronicler]

I would like to quote Genesis 1:1 2-25 : Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (NIV) Let's take a look at this passage. The G-d we are referring to here is YHWH the creator of the universe. He said, "Let us make man in our image." Last time I walked down the street I didn't see any dragon people with scales, breathing fire and the like. I saw people that pretty much all look the same as each other. So if we are made in the image of G-d its doubtful that he's a dragon. I'm no expert in religion, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in some of the passages I have read in the bible it also says G-d is spirit and he is omnipresent which means he is always everywhere at once. If you are a follower of Christianity then you believe that Jesus is G-d. If Jesus is G-d then G-d is a middle eastern man, and he probably looks like he's about 33 yrs old. If he's middle eastern he probaly has dark skin medium length dark brown hair as many people in that region of the world had at that time, and has a full beard and mustache. This is quite different than the pictures you see him normally portrayed as with blond hair and blue or brown eyes and white caucasian skin. In allot of Jewish theology it is believed that YHWH has both masculine and feminine attributes. However this belief in a G-d with both feminine and masculine attributes has not been mentioned much in modern popular Jewish beliefs. After some thought about what G-d might look like I came to this as a conclusion. He/ she made everything in the universe, if he/ she has the ability to do this I must imagine there's really not anything that he/ she can't do, or make himself/ herself look like. The really interesting part of this passage is the word, "Our". Our image and our likeness. So who is he/ she talking about when he/ she is saying our? I have my own theories about this but I'll save it for some other time. Its my opinion that if we all get to see the face of G-d or YHWH when we die then we'll be able to see what he/ she looks like then. I'd like to see what he/ she looks like too,and I have about a million questions for him/her but I'm in no hurry I can wait. There's too much to do while were alive you know. Heres a cool picture I found of what G-d might look like.

Happy Chanukah, Merry Christmas, Happy Quanzah, Happy New Year, and Happy Festivas!

We know that Yahweh and the Creator Elohim are two different entities by looking at Cannanite theology dated older than Hebrew beliefs, but with the identical dieties. This is why the early Bible acknowledges Ba'al as a real diety as well. El-Elohim, is essentially a spiritual Creator seen in a multitude of religions, and essentially could be considered the diety of "Theists" which include many scientists who believe we are not simply an "accidenta lmixture of chemicals at the right temperature and atmosphere. If we take Genesis literally, by His image, may in fact mean, a thinking creature rather than one simply guided by instinct.

But Yahweh is NOT the creator. We see this in the earliest parts of the Bible, Yahweh is subservient to El, he is referred to as a Son of El. And Yahweh is a dragon-like creature, exactly as his cannanite prototype Yaw. Read the original post, it shows much evidence from the Bible itself that establishes tha Yahweh as well as the highest heavenly creatures (seraphim) are winged reptilian creatures which the ancient Jewish Rabbis themselves translated to the Greek word Drakons. And for centuries, Christianity acknowledged dragons were heavenly creatures as well. Just open any illustrated bible of the middle ages and you will see God riding a winged, reptilian looking dragon (cherubim), dragons biting Israelites from the book of Numbers, etc. Even Yahweh's personal idol is a winged serpent, and he asked for salt on his animal sacrifices, meat he actually consumed because he is a living creature and not a "spirit". Even the angels are physical beings in the Bible, that must eat food even in Heaven. It is called Manna.

Jesus calls to El from the cross, not Yahweh. In fact he warns the Pharisees that the God they worship (Yahweh) is NOT His Father. Check it out, and read this whole thread again. I am not making any of this up. Though some Bibles have been changed, essentially the basic information that suggestss Yahweh is a dragon is the same in all of them, like the breathing fire, having wings, demanding meat offerings, ordering a dragon idol, etc.. . Yahweh is the tribal protector of the Hebrews, and a winged, fire breathing, meat eating creature. And creatures just like him were believed in by ancient humans all over the world. On the contrary, Elohim is the actual God of the Bible, and NOT a dragon. Unfortunately, over the centuries they have been intermingled to the point most Christians are very confused as to why their God often behaves "like a dragon". Now you know.

Edited December 2, 2007 by draconic chronicler

[joeycastaneda56]

Before dismissing this out of hand, I would ask everyone read the whole post, and read it from the premise that Yahweh and El (Elohim) the actual Creator are two seperate entities, (as many serious Biblical scholars have proposed), with Yahweh actually being the one of many Bene Elohim, which also includes the creature Satan, long associated with flying serpents and dragons. I repeat, I am not proposing that "God is a Dragon", but that the Creator (El, Elohim), created "dragons" as assistants, that have been mistaken as our Gods around the world, including the "Watcher Dragon" of the Hebrews called Yahweh, who through a minunderstanding of scripture is now worshipped by most Christians and Jews as the actual creator.

Here are the facts:

1. The highest heavenly creatures are called Seraphim, a word which the highly esteemed and scholarly Jewish Enclyclopedia states means "fiery flying serpent", though medieval Christians have transformed these "dragons" into the more familiar, swan-winged, "cartoon" angels of popular culture. When the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim into Greek, the word they used was drakon, which is the word our modern "dragon" is derived from.

2. The only graven image/idol Yahweh ever permits is that of a "fiery flying serpent", obviously his personal image, This image has supernatural powers, and Yahweh allows it to be freely worshipped in Solomon's temple. As soon as the idol is broken, disaster befalls Israel and it has never recovered until the late 20th century.

3. The flood story of Genesis is believed by most Biblical scholars to be a "retelling" of near identical, yet far older Sumerian versions in which the God name Enlil, who is also subservient to a greater Creator God is called "a Great Serpent-Dragon of Heaven". His hymns also associate him with rainbows as we see in Genesis, and he is called "the good shepherd".

4. Some scholars acknowledge that the Name Yahweh comes from the Cannanite Dragon God Yaw, who like the Biblical Yahweh is a god of storms and floods, but is a "son" of the true Creator Elohim, also the name of the Creator in Genesis, not Yahweh.

5. Virtually every world culture had identified the winged intelligent dragon as a real creature, and most of the earliest cultures recognize it as the creatue that brought them knowledge of agriculture and technology. This is also true in the Judaic legends with the reptilian "watchers".

6. In Exodous, Yahweh leaves his dragon sized tent, and flies ahead of the Israelites to burn away impassable briars and scorpions. He marks the route by spewing smoke and fire.

7. Yahweh plops his huge dragon body in the bed of the Jordan River upstream to divert its flow so the Hebrews can cross its bed to attack Jericho.

8. He is specifically described spewing fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils, exactly like the dragon like Leviathan that the Bible states he "plays" with. (A female dragon?)

9. Many biblical passages imply that Yahweh physically consumed his meat offerings unlike the "fake" gods of other cultures. The Bible is very specific that Yahweh wanted salt on his meat as well, suggesting these offereing were physically consumed and not merely burned to ashes.

10. Like many legendary dragons, Yahweh occasionally "consumes" humans as well, to include two of Aaron's sons who prepared a sacrifice wrong. In scripture, Yahweh demanded the first born of all Israelites, but the bible says it was possible to pay him money instead, on a sliding scale, also indicating the univesal dragon love of hoarding treasure.

11. The preferred prey of dragons in most cultures are "human virgins" for reasons which are not entirely understood. This trait is very apparent in the Bible as well, where Moses presents Yahweh with 32 Midianite virgins after the Israelite destruction of this tribe. No more is said of them so we can only assume they were "consumed" like Aaron's sons.

12. The Persian Zoroastrians, whom share much reiligous doctrine with Christianity clearly state in their own scriptures (the Denkard), that the "God" of Judaism and Christianity who watched of the Israelites and provided their laws was a dragon, and brother to the dragon Ahriman in their own religion. Interestingly, the storm dragon of Sumeria who flooded the world happened to be brother to the dragon Enki who livied the the garden of Eden and who "tricked" a man named "Adam" out of eternal life.

13. Some Christian gnostics also state Yahweh is a dragon in their scriptures.

14. Jesus stated the Pharisees were worshipping a creature that was NOT his father. Many Christians claim Jesus meant Satan, but this does not make sense, for the Jews clearly worshipped Yahweh and clearly recognized Satan as a distinctly different creature which they definately DID NOT worship. Could Jesus have been referring to the Yahweh dragon? After all he did not call to Yahweh from the cross, but to El. The first paragraphs of the Bible show these are two different entities, for El's creation story is completely different from Yahweh's, far less scientific one.

15. Yahweh is described with "feathers", as depicted on most of the most acnient dragon wings and this idea lasted until medieval times, after which dragons became less commonly seen. Saphira in Eragon is reminesecent of these ancient dragon depictions, and probably inspired the design of this character.

Actually there is enough evidence of Yahweh "being a dragon" to literally "fill a book", (as it indeed has, in my upcoming one on this precise subject des), but thought this is an adequate amount of Biblical facts to gender an interesting discussion.

Can anyone refute these Biblical facts? And shouldn't Christians want to embrace these facts, for the worldwide belief in dragons as benificent supernatural entities has far more theological and even scientific precedent than "a bearded old guy on a golden throne? Might it not be a good idea to recreate the fiery flying serpent image Yahweh ordered Moses to make, something very good that cured sickness, and which Yahweh allowed to be worshipped in his temple for centuries, Israel prospering during all the time it was worshipped, and was virtually annihlated as soon as it was broken?

And might there not be some volunteer virgins willing to appease Him for the good of all mankind, not to mention starting up a daily ration of unblemished calves and lambs like the good old days? And liqour. He asks for liquor in the Book of Genesis. (Actually a lot of the ancient Dragon Gods ask for liquor).

Angelic Beings Called (Seraphim) These are mentioned only two times in Scripture, but their description proves that they are angelic creature and heavenly beings: I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood these seraphims : Each had six wings: with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: and the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke....Then flew one of the Seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand,which he had taken with tongs from off the altar. And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away and thy sin purged" (ISAIAH). 6: 1-7. There are several types of Angles (Angelic Beings Called Cherubim)-(Angelic Beings Called Zoa or Living Creatures)-(Angelic Beings Called Archangels there are only Three, Michael The Archangel, Gabriel the Archangel and Lucifer the Archangel) - (Angelic Beings Known as Common Angels. hope this helps you............................

[draconic chronicler]

Angelic Beings Called (Seraphim) These are mentioned only two times in Scripture, but their description proves that they are angelic creature and heavenly beings: I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood these seraphims : Each had six wings: with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: and the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke....Then flew one of the Seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand,which he had taken with tongs from off the altar. And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away and thy sin purged" (ISAIAH). 6: 1-7. There are several types of Angles (Angelic Beings Called Cherubim)-(Angelic Beings Called Zoa or Living Creatures)-(Angelic Beings Called Archangels there are only Three, Michael The Archangel, Gabriel the Archangel and Lucifer the Archangel) - (Angelic Beings Known as Common Angels. hope this helps you............................

No, it only demonstrates how little you know about REAL Judao Christian beliefs. Nothing in that description suggests the Seraphim are not reptilian. A dragon would have a face, and arms, and wings! And as far as singing, if you used a "real" bible, you would know that in Psalms the Seraphim are called dragons and they sing praises to God here as well. In fact it is only dragons who do the singing, not swan winged "cartoon angels" stolen from pagan greco roman myths. All of the ancient sources support what I am saying, your ideas of humanoid seraphim are a very recent, "non-biblical, feel good, Christian mytholgy" that has nothing to do with the real Judao-Christian beliefs from the time of Jesus.

The expert Hebrew scholars of the Jewish Encyclopedia state the same thing, that the Seraphim are winged reptiles, and even the ancient Egyptians believed in the same creatues with the SAME NAME! They know this becasuse they actually understand Hebrew fluently, unlike the 19th century Methodist Sunday School teachers who wrote those worthless concordances that well meaning, but largely unknowing Christians people like you accept as the gospel truth. ALL of the ancient sources support what I am saying. None support your "modern Chistian mythology" that contradicts the ancient scripures. You do not even realize Lucifer was just a mistranslation about the prince of Tyre and King of Babylon. Jesus never mentioned a "Lucifer" becasue Christianity had not invented him yet! Even many mainstream Christians now understand this, and there are many books and websites to document this.

And we do not even have to go by the statements of modern scholars, becasue the ancient preserved scriptures found by archaeologists, like the dead sea scrolls prove this as well. When the Jewish Rabbis translated the scriptures from Hebrew to Greek, since Seraphim was a Egytian-Hebrew word, they picked the best word in Greek to describe these heavenly creatures of retribution. They are called Drakons, just as the humanoid heavenly creatures are called Angelos in Greek. These are the messengers. We know Christians believed these things up through the middle ages, because chruch mosaics, Bible covers, frescoes, etc, often depict the Isaiah scene, and the Seraphim are Dragons. And in virtually every illuminated medieval bible, in the chapters that describe God on a Cherubim, the cherubim is a DRAGON, not a chubby baby angel, that is "modern" christian nonsense.

Your modern Christian, pagan-inspried mythology has nothing to do with the real Judao-Christian beliefs of the ancient Christians that acknowledged dragons were as much heavenly creatures (and the highest ones of all in fact), as the piddling "angel" messenger boys. And as I have demonstrated in the OP, Yahweh himself is also one of these dragons, just as Jesus Himself warned the Pharisees. The real creator God is El. Thisis who Jesus calls to from the cross, not Yahweh. And the cannanite scriptures also state that El is the creator, and he has a favorite assistant, a dragon named Yaw. He was assigned as the personal protector of the Hebrews, but he was not a God, and certainly does not behave like one throughout much of the Old Testament. He behaves more like a "dragon" and now you finally know why.

Everything was rewritten by your Chritian "handlers" about 300 years ago when people know longer reported dragons flying across the sky, and they thought "Gee, nobody will take us seriously anymore if we leave all dragons in the Bible", though interestingly, things like stopping the sun to slaughter more canaanites, parting the Red Sea, and an ancient boat that contained every type of wild animal from every continent is way more realistic than heavenly dragons -- even though dragons are certinly the most universal and enduring supernatural creature in theologies around the word and from the dawn of civiliazation.

[draconic chronicler]

originally in bibles etc, G-d was called "Elohim" (which is a uni-plural in the same way as house is to people and church is to congregation) ..do the math

that pic you posted has common symbolism in it, it's almost burgouis hehe.. the eye, and what seems to be 7 rings/layers just under it.. (nothing groundbreaking there.. why do you think God sits in a chair in the sky?)

Most Christians also don't realize that in other early paintings, mosaics and ivory bible covers, of the heavenlycourt scene based on Isaiah, that the "chair" God sets on in heaven is actually the coiled tails of the living Seraphim dragons that flank him, busily gobbling up sinners who do not pass judgement. Most of this art has since been destroyed as Christian beliefs continue to evolve, but my upcoming book will show some prime examples. In one of my favorites, Jesus is on God's lap surrounded by the devouring dragons. This also disproves the modern Christian concept that God and Jesus are the same being. Of course the real Bible confirms this cannot be as well, for Jesus prays to God, and call to him by the ancient name of the Creator, El, not the dragon called the Son of El, in cannanite religion called Yaw, and by the Hebrews, Yahweh.

Edited December 2, 2007 by draconic chronicler

[joeycastaneda56]

No, it only demonstrates how little you know about REAL Judao Christian beliefs. Nothing in that description suggests the Seraphim are not reptilian. A dragon would have a face, and arms, and wings! And as far as singing, if you used a "real" bible, you would know that in Psalms the Seraphim are called dragons and they sing praises to God here as well. In fact it is only dragons who do the singing, not swan winged "cartoon angels" stolen from pagan greco roman myths. All of the ancient sources support what I am saying, your ideas of humanoid seraphim are a very recent, "non-biblical, feel good, Christian mytholgy" that has nothing to do with the real Judao-Christian beliefs from the time of Jesus.

The expert Hebrew scholars of the Jewish Encyclopedia state the same thing, that the Seraphim are winged reptiles, and even the ancient Egyptians believed in the same creatues with the SAME NAME! They know this becasuse they actually understand Hebrew fluently, unlike the 19th century Methodist Sunday School teachers who wrote those worthless concordances that well meaning, but largely unknowing Christians people like you accept as the gospel truth. ALL of the ancient sources support what I am saying. None support your "modern Chistian mythology" that contradicts the ancient scripures. You do not even realize Lucifer was just a mistranslation about the prince of Tyre and King of Babylon. Jesus never mentioned a "Lucifer" becasue Christianity had not invented him yet! Even many mainstream Christians now understand this, and there are many books and websites to document this.

And we do not even have to go by the statements of modern scholars, becasue the ancient preserved scriptures found by archaeologists, like the dead sea scrolls prove this as well. When the Jewish Rabbis translated the scriptures from Hebrew to Greek, since Seraphim was a Egytian-Hebrew word, they picked the best word in Greek to describe these heavenly creatures of retribution. They are called Drakons, just as the humanoid heavenly creatures are called Angelos in Greek. These are the messengers. We know Christians believed these things up through the middle ages, because chruch mosaics, Bible covers, frescoes, etc, often depict the Isaiah scene, and the Seraphim are Dragons. And in virtually every illuminated medieval bible, in the chapters that describe God on a Cherubim, the cherubim is a DRAGON, not a chubby baby angel, that is "modern" christian nonsense.

Your modern Christian, pagan-inspried mythology has nothing to do with the real Judao-Christian beliefs of the ancient Christians that acknowledged dragons were as much heavenly creatures (and the highest ones of all in fact), as the piddling "angel" messenger boys. And as I have demonstrated in the OP, Yahweh himself is also one of these dragons, just as Jesus Himself warned the Pharisees. The real creator God is El. Thisis who Jesus calls to from the cross, not Yahweh. And the cannanite scriptures also state that El is the creator, and he has a favorite assistant, a dragon named Yaw. He was assigned as the personal protector of the Hebrews, but he was not a God, and certainly does not behave like one throughout much of the Old Testament. He behaves more like a "dragon" and now you finally know why.

Everything was rewritten by your Chritian "handlers" about 300 years ago when people know longer reported dragons flying across the sky, and they thought "Gee, nobody will take us seriously anymore if we leave all dragons in the Bible", though interestingly, things like stopping the sun to slaughter more canaanites, parting the Red Sea, and an ancient boat that contained every type of wild animal from every continent is way more realistic than heavenly dragons -- even though dragons are certinly the most universal and enduring supernatural creature in theologies around the word and from the dawn of civiliazation.

Man with your (Real Judao-Christian beliefs) your so smart, it make you (STUPID). Dragon are mention 35 times in the Old Testament and a Dragon is a Dragon. And a Seraphim is a Seraphim. In Job the leviathan is a real Dragon. The word Dinosaurs was invented by Sir Richard Owns in 1841.Before that time they were know as Dragon.Yes I hate to tell you there was Dragons/ Dinosaurs in the old Testament. It would be hard to explain it to you because your set in your ways. Go to www.dr dino.com. Maybe he can teach you a few things about Dragons and Dinosaurs. He backs up all his teaching with Scripture.

Edited December 3, 2007 by joeycastaneda56

[draconic chronicler]

Man with your (Real Judao-Christian beliefs) your so smart, it make you (STUPID). Dragon are mention 35 times in the Old Testament and a Dragon is a Dragon. And a Seraphim is a Seraphim. in In Job the leviathan is a real Dragon. The word Dinosaurs was invented by Sir Richard Owns in 1841.Before that time they were know as Dragon.Yes I hate to tell you there was Dragons/ Dinosaurs in the old Testament. It would be hard to explain it to you because your set in your ways. Go to www.dr dino.com. Maybe he can teach you a few things about Dragons and Dinosaurs. He backs up all his teaching with Scripture.

No the dragons in Psalms SING praises to God, just like the Seraphim. They are not dinosuars. The dragons of mankinds legends are intelligent creatuers connected with the Gods, or were thought to be Gods, like Yahweh. All over the world these dragons supposedly taught humans technology, laws etc. We see this in the Old Testament. Goofy weobsites like the one you are talking about are merely trying to justify a "young earth" by using the dragon legends to justify dinosaurs living in the time of men. But you (and them) know so little about the bible that you do not understand all the dinosaurs died 65 MYA, and the intelligent "dragon gods" of every human culture are heavenly creatures, if you believe in the bible, or possibly aliens as many people believe. In the original Bible, Yahweh is just one of many Bene Elohim "dragons" assigned to each human tribe. We know this from the oldest, unchanged Bible found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The ancient Jewish Rabbis translated the word Seraphim to Drakon. It doesn't matter what nonsense you make up today. The "buck stops" with the original scriptures found buried by archaeologists, not the fanceiful, non-biblical nonsense invented out of thin air by fundamentalists. If you were really a fundamentalist, you would admit the seraphim are dragons becasue thats what the bible really says.

Edited December 3, 2007 by draconic chronicler

[Mademoiselle]

Dragons are mythological and legendary creatures . They are metaphoric and negatively connotated .

[draconic chronicler]

Dragons are mythological and legendary creatures . They are metaphoric and negatively connotated .

You only know part of the story. Dragons were actually the Benificent Gods of all the worlds great civilizations. Even the "good gods" that supposedly subdue chaotic forces of nature represented as "bad dragons" were originally dragons as well. In the earliest dragon legend of all Enki is called in his Hymns, "The Great Serpent-Dragon of Heaven", a winged Mushrushu dragon who defeats a Chaotic sea serpent. His son Marduk then is the offspring of a dragon , and apparently could assume the dragon or human form, Zeuss defeats Typhon, but also turns back into a dragon to rape human woman, and Yahweh defeats the Chaos serpent Rahaab, and many scholars say this is simply a retelling of the original Enki vs. Abzu battle, and much evidence suggests that the Yahweh before the babylonian captivity was identified as a storm dragon, as even his idol proves this, worshipped for centuries until shortly before the destruction of the temple. Dragons are still considered benificient spirits in most of the orient.

[draconic chronicler]

originally in bibles etc, G-d was called "Elohim" (which is a uni-plural in the same way as house is to people and church is to congregation) ..do the math

that pic you posted has common symbolism in it, it's almost burgouis hehe.. the eye, and what seems to be 7 rings/layers just under it.. (nothing groundbreaking there.. why do you think God sits in a chair in the sky?)

El and Yahweh were orginally different entities, no only to the Hebrew, but the the cannanites as well, though Yahweh was a dragon call Yaw or yam. But as the OP states, the bible describes Yahweh much like a draon as well.