Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?

[draconic chronicler]

So, now bigfoot is the nephilim spoken of in genesis, and you propose dragons eat/ate them. WOW, two hypothesis

in one your on a roll DC.

Seriously though! You actually think a big, mysterious, harry animal, that has yet to be found are nephilim?

Yes, they must have a supernatural origin or they would have been found by now, exactly like dragons. Understand that the Nephilim were considered the offspring between humans and heavenly 'angels', so they would seem humanlike, and their description fits that of bigfoot, and other hairy humanoids recorded all over the world.

[churchanddestroy]

Yes, they must have a supernatural origin or they would have been found by now, exactly like dragons. Understand that the Nephilim were considered the offspring between humans and heavenly 'angels', so they would seem humanlike, and their description fits that of bigfoot, and other hairy humanoids recorded all over the world.

Thats a contentious statement. If that is true then all of the species that we find every year must have supernatural origins.

[Dredimus]

Good Grief!

[draconic chronicler]

Thats a contentious statement. If that is true then all of the species that we find every year must have supernatural origins.

Use a little common sense. It is natural that a humanoid creature might be intelligent. And it is only through intelligence that creatures so large as lake monsters (dragons) and big foot could avoid capture.

But if they find a new mouse deep in the congo, then no, this does not mean it is intelligent or has supernatural origins ... geesh!

Edited June 29, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[churchanddestroy]

Use a little common sense. It is natural that a humanoid creature might be intelligent. And it is only through intelligence that creatures so large as lake monsters (dragons) and big foot could avoid capture.

But if they find a new mouse deep in the congo, then no, this does not mean it is intelligent or has supernatural origins ... geesh!

Common sense? As far as I know, the belief that lake monsters are actually dragons and that Big Foot is the hybrid spawn of fallen angels and sinful women is far from common, DC.

There is no reason to believe that either lake monsters are dragons or that big foot is a nephilim remnant. There are many other reasons to believe that these creatures have evaded capture besides being intelligent. For one, they might not even exist. Second, we have no dragons on the fossil record, and as such we have no reason to believe that because of human encroachment, they decided to move into lakes or other large bodies of water.

But I think the biggest problem with your theory, DC, is that you seem to rely on the Bible as literal truth. Above all, past your dragons and lake monster mumbo jumbo, a literal interpretation of the texts is a pretty big leap of faith. There really is no historical evidence that supports at least the early part of Genesis, concerning the Garden of Eden and the Flood (as in a literal Noah, there probably was a big flood in Mesopotamia, but thats off topic) and the Nephilim and so on and so forth.

I really have no problem with your thing for dragons. If thats what your little religion is, then fine, I say go for it, but just remember DC, its a leap of faith.

Edit: PS, D.C. there are plenty of large fauna that have been discovered in recent years that didn't necessarily need to exhibit signs of intelligence to stay out of sight of humans.

Edited June 30, 2008 by churchanddestroy

[draconic chronicler]

Common sense? As far as I know, the belief that lake monsters are actually dragons and that Big Foot is the hybrid spawn of fallen angels and sinful women is far from common, DC.

There is no reason to believe that either lake monsters are dragons or that big foot is a nephilim remnant. There are many other reasons to believe that these creatures have evaded capture besides being intelligent. For one, they might not even exist. Second, we have no dragons on the fossil record, and as such we have no reason to believe that because of human encroachment, they decided to move into lakes or other large bodies of water.

But I think the biggest problem with your theory, DC, is that you seem to rely on the Bible as literal truth. Above all, past your dragons and lake monster mumbo jumbo, a literal interpretation of the texts is a pretty big leap of faith. There really is no historical evidence that supports at least the early part of Genesis, concerning the Garden of Eden and the Flood (as in a literal Noah, there probably was a big flood in Mesopotamia, but thats off topic) and the Nephilim and so on and so forth.

I really have no problem with your thing for dragons. If thats what your little religion is, then fine, I say go for it, but just remember DC, its a leap of faith.

Edit: PS, D.C. there are plenty of large fauna that have been discovered in recent years that didn't necessarily need to exhibit signs of intelligence to stay out of sight of humans.

Actually everything in my book is in harmony with science, safe for the understanding that there is an intelligence behind the universe that apparently used some yet undiscovered large, sentient reptile (probably artificially enhanced), and served as 'protectors' of various human tribal groups, which formed the basis of the world's earliest religions, all of which seem to have dragons.

Many scholars state there is a lot of 'good history' in the Bible. The Sumerian Eden was next to a Stone Age city called Eridu where a "Great Dragon" as he is described in his hymns had a priest who caught fish for him named Adape/Adam. There is also evidence of a great flood in Mesopotamia that inspired the Noah story. Incidentally, it was the same 'dragon' of Eden who warned the Mesopotamian Noah of the impending flood. Save for the mysterious 'dragons' that seem to 'everywhere' in these times, nothing in these ideas violates things like evolution, real geological time, etc.

I agree 'larger' animals that are not intelligent are still being found, but dragons are described in virtually every country, and so called "lake monsters" that are still seen yet never captured ocur nearly everywhere where there were previously dragon legends.

[Dredimus]

Actually everything in my book is in harmony with science, safe for the understanding that there is an intelligence behind the universe that apparently used some yet undiscovered large, sentient reptile (probably artificially enhanced), and served as 'protectors' of various human tribal groups, which formed the basis of the world's earliest religions, all of which seem to have dragons.

Many scholars state there is a lot of 'good history' in the Bible. The Sumerian Eden was next to a Stone Age city called Eridu where a "Great Dragon" as he is described in his hymns had a priest who caught fish for him named Adape/Adam. There is also evidence of a great flood in Mesopotamia that inspired the Noah story. Incidentally, it was the same 'dragon' of Eden who warned the Mesopotamian Noah of the impending flood. Save for the mysterious 'dragons' that seem to 'everywhere' in these times, nothing in these ideas violates things like evolution, real geological time, etc.

I agree 'larger' animals that are not intelligent are still being found, but dragons are described in virtually every country, and so called "lake monsters" that are still seen yet never captured ocur nearly everywhere where there were previously dragon legends.

Scholars are not scientist... And another issue I have with your "preachings" You speak on the sumerian text quite alot, yet say that none of the dragons have been killed and all this other blubber... yet, it sumerian text is tells the story of how one dragon was killed by the others (dont ask me for names cause its nearly midnight here and ive had a few to drink if you know what im talkin about) but anyway, that information is in my previous post on this thread, seriously. Now, why werent the bones of fossils of this dragon ever found... oh wait, thats right, they dont exist... besides, you say dragons eat people and cattle and what not... which would say that a dragon is a eating, breathing, water drinking, waste pooping animal... which would put it/him/her on the same level as humans... Why would a completely omnipitant being need to eat? It wouldnt.... why would an omnipitant being need to lay eggs to foster a lineage? They wouldnt... Face it... "dragons" are mythical exagerations of lizards and gaters. You cant seriously tell me that God pooped an egg and out popped jesus....

[draconic chronicler]

Scholars are not scientist... And another issue I have with your "preachings" You speak on the sumerian text quite alot, yet say that none of the dragons have been killed and all this other blubber... yet, it sumerian text is tells the story of how one dragon was killed by the others (dont ask me for names cause its nearly midnight here and ive had a few to drink if you know what im talkin about) but anyway, that information is in my previous post on this thread, seriously. Now, why werent the bones of fossils of this dragon ever found... oh wait, thats right, they dont exist... besides, you say dragons eat people and cattle and what not... which would say that a dragon is a eating, breathing, water drinking, waste pooping animal... which would put it/him/her on the same level as humans... Why would a completely omnipitant being need to eat? It wouldnt.... why would an omnipitant being need to lay eggs to foster a lineage? They wouldnt... Face it... "dragons" are mythical exagerations of lizards and gaters. You cant seriously tell me that God pooped an egg and out popped jesus....

You still haven't understood what I am saying. I never said the Creator is a dragon. I said that according to WORLDWIDE ancient beliefs, it would seem that a Creator being may have 'enhanced' some kind of reptilian creature to 'watch over' early man and insure his survival.

In the original Sumerian and Canannite theologies, there is one HIGH God in heaven responsible for creating the rest, many of which were called dragons, and all of which may have originally been what we call dragons.

If a Creator needed something to watch over mankind in its formative, vulnerable period would it have to be a metal robot full of transistors and circuits? Of course not, these are human things. A more logical choice would be modifying some existing creature to be an 'organic robot' in which even the aging process would be negated. But such an organism would still require food and water, just as a metal robot requires an energy source. Nothing at all need be 'magical' or impossbile. These creatures would still be omnipotent to human beings, just as a T-Rex would seem to be to stone age man.

Do you realize that many dinosaurs we 'believe in' today are based on only one or two bones? Yet at one time BILLIONS must have existed, only we haven't found their fossils. Most bonese are never fossilized. In Romania a gigantic flying pterosaur was just discovered as tall as a T-Rex, with a wingspan of probably 50 feet and could swallow an adult human whole. Its skull is the largest of any land animal ever found, over 10 feet long and three feet wide. If humans saw this beast in the middle ages, it would have been called a dragon. It is REAL, even though 'scientists' would have said it was impossible before this.

Edited June 30, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[LaPucelle]

God eats captured enemy virgins?!

Would that be male virgins, female virgins, or some of each??

I shoulda paid more attention in Sunday School!

[draconic chronicler]

God eats captured enemy virgins?!

Would that be male virgins, female virgins, or some of each??

I shoulda paid more attention in Sunday School!

'God' doesn't eat the virgins, a dragon named Yahweh that later became confused with the real Creator (Elohim) ate the virgins. And the Bible is very specific about them being female, for every male of the Midianites from the smallest baby had already been executed.

True, this is one of several interesting Bible stories they never told you about in Sunday School.

[churchanddestroy]

'God' doesn't eat the virgins, a dragon named Yahweh that later became confused with the real Creator (Elohim) ate the virgins. And the Bible is very specific about them being female, for every male of the Midianites from the smallest baby had already been executed.

True, this is one of several interesting Bible stories they never told you about in Sunday School.

So, I'm curious DC, how did we confuse the 'Creator' with the 'dragon' Yahweh? How did that whole thing pan out?

[draconic chronicler]

So, I'm curious DC, how did we confuse the 'Creator' with the 'dragon' Yahweh? How did that whole thing pan out?

Very simple. Originally the Hebrew beliefs were polytheistic and identical to those of the Canaanites, which is sensible becasue though Abraham was said to have come from Ur in Sumeria, his people migrated to Canaan.

El or Elohim was the Chief God of both cultures. According to Both cannanite theology and the bible, this El assigned lesser gods (that I believe were dragons based on world wide beliefs) to watch over specific human cultures. The Bible states that Yahweh was assigned to the Hebrews, though the early bible states the other 'gods' assigned to other tribes were just as real as Yahweh, though they naturally thought Yahweh was the most powerful.

Later, when Judaism became monotheistic after exposure to the Zoroastrian persians, the two highest gods of the Hebrews were morphed into one and the rest of the foreign gods were turned into demons. Even in Genesis both Elohim and Yahweh have their own, completely different Creations stoires! But Elohim's is remarkably similar to evolution once we understand the 'days' are actually great epochs.

[churchanddestroy]

Very simple. Originally the Hebrew beliefs were polytheistic and identical to those of the Canaanites, which is sensible becasue though Abraham was said to have come from Ur in Sumeria, his people migrated to Canaan.

El or Elohim was the Chief God of both cultures. According to Both cannanite theology and the bible, this El assigned lesser gods (that I believe were dragons based on world wide beliefs) to watch over specific human cultures. The Bible states that Yahweh was assigned to the Hebrews, though the early bible states the other 'gods' assigned to other tribes were just as real as Yahweh, though they naturally thought Yahweh was the most powerful.

Later, when Judaism became monotheistic after exposure to the Zoroastrian persians, the two highest gods of the Hebrews were morphed into one and the rest of the foreign gods were turned into demons. Even in Genesis both Elohim and Yahweh have their own, completely different Creations stoires! But Elohim's is remarkably similar to evolution once we understand the 'days' are actually great epochs.

So, do you believe that these gods were/are real?

[draconic chronicler]

So, do you believe that these gods were/are real?

Only The Creator could be considered a true God, the dragons are simply long lived, sentient reptiles that played the 'god game' among men in return for steady meals and pampering.

[draconic chronicler]

The biblical Yahweh might as well be a Dragon. They are equally non-existent.

Virtually every human culture believed in dragons........ kind of odd if they never existed. They are connected to virtually every human religion as well. But maybe you 'know more' than billions of people.

Edited July 3, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[churchanddestroy]

Virtually every human culture believed in dragons........ kind of odd if they never existed. They are connected to virtually every human religion as well. But maybe you 'know more' than billions of people.

Almost every culture believed in God at some point or another, but there is no empirical evidence to suggest that God is real. However, I think there is more reason to believe in God than dragons.

[draconic chronicler]

Almost every culture believed in God at some point or another, but there is no empirical evidence to suggest that God is real. However, I think there is more reason to believe in God than dragons.

But what you seem to forget is that many of these earliest gods the world over WERE considered dragons, even a certain God called Enki, whose hymns claimed was "the Great Dragon who standds in Eridu", where he made the Garden of Eden, warned a "Noah " of a great flood, and casued a man named Adam to lose his bid for eternal life. Zeus and Odin were storm gods, that were probably based on the Sumerian Storm dragon Enlil, and there is no question about the flying serpent dietines of the Americas or the lung of China being dragon gods.

So if these 'gods' were/are real, they are most likely a kind of enormous sentient reptile. But understand that these dragon gods usually answered to a Ceator God that was NOT described as a dragon. There is a great deal of pluasibility that if there was a Creator, He/It, may have recruited assistants among other life forms. Even in Christianity, the highest assistants were originally dragons, also known as seraphim, or fiery flying serpents.

[churchanddestroy]

But what you seem to forget is that many of these earliest gods the world over WERE considered dragons, even a certain God called Enki, whose hymns claimed was "the Great Dragon who standds in Eridu", where he made the Garden of Eden, warned a "Noah " of a great flood, and casued a man named Adam to lose his bid for eternal life. Zeus and Odin were storm gods, that were probably based on the Sumerian Storm dragon Enlil, and there is no question about the flying serpent dietines of the Americas or the lung of China being dragon gods.

So if these 'gods' were/are real, they are most likely a kind of enormous sentient reptile. But understand that these dragon gods usually answered to a Ceator God that was NOT described as a dragon. There is a great deal of pluasibility that if there was a Creator, He/It, may have recruited assistants among other life forms. Even in Christianity, the highest assistants were originally dragons, also known as seraphim, or fiery flying serpents.

Theres the crux of it, DC. IF they are real. All debate about whether the gods of antiquity were recognized as dragons aside, what reason is there to believe that they exist/existed?

[draconic chronicler]

Theres the crux of it, DC. IF they are real. All debate about whether the gods of antiquity were recognized as dragons aside, what reason is there to believe that they exist/existed?

Probably because virtually every human culture acknowledged they DID exist, so that's a pretty good track record. It matter little if over the centuries the evolved into 'bearded old guys, on golden thrones'.

[ravergirl]

I can concede that God has taken the form of a dragon at some point but since the biblical God has always ALWAYS resided in the spiritual realm and never NEVER taken form on earth, and has always ALWAYS sent messangers, there really is no way to know is there?

[churchanddestroy]

Probably because virtually every human culture acknowledged they DID exist, so that's a pretty good track record. It matter little if over the centuries the evolved into 'bearded old guys, on golden thrones'.

Is there any evidence besides the fact that supposedly people believed in them (dragons)? Is there any physical evidence to suggest that dragons are real entities?

[draconic chronicler]

Is there any evidence besides the fact that supposedly people believed in them (dragons)? Is there any physical evidence to suggest that dragons are real entities?

As the dragonslaying stories appear to be greatly exaggerated, it seems we have no physical remains. Many of the accounts elude to them being extremly long-lifed creatures. But the fact people everywhere claimed to have seen them, and every scientific type book of the time acknowledged they were real should have some weight. The Anglo Saxon Chronicles, which is our chief source of information about Britain during the Dark Ages even records a specific king who was swallowed by one!

And of course, if there is any truth to any theology, virtually all of them have some connection to dragons. Odd, isn't it?

[churchanddestroy]

As the dragonslaying stories appear to be greatly exaggerated, it seems we have no physical remains. Many of the accounts elude to them being extremly long-lifed creatures. But the fact people everywhere claimed to have seen them, and every scientific type book of the time acknowledged they were real should have some weight. The Anglo Saxon Chronicles, which is our chief source of information about Britain during the Dark Ages even records a specific king who was swallowed by one!

And of course, if there is any truth to any theology, virtually all of them have some connection to dragons. Odd, isn't it?

So there is no physical evidence then?

[draconic chronicler]

So there is no physical evidence then?

No more than that of any God, though I strongly suspect more people have reported seeing dragons than they have all the world's 'gods' put together.

Of course, there have been some unidentified decomposed beasts found in the ocean that could have been dragons. There was one creature that looked a lot like a Chinese dragon found in the stomach of a Sperm Whale that was photographed, though the body was regreatably lost to science. And there have been many photographs of Sea Serpents and Lake Monsters that may be dragons, though regretably, always taken from great distance due to the wariness of the creatures.

[churchanddestroy]

No more than that of any God, though I strongly suspect more people have reported seeing dragons than they have all the world's 'gods' put together.

Of course, there have been some unidentified decomposed beasts found in the ocean that could have been dragons. There was one creature that looked a lot like a Chinese dragon found in the stomach of a Sperm Whale that was photographed, though the body was regreatably lost to science. And there have been many photographs of Sea Serpents and Lake Monsters that may be dragons, though regretably, always taken from great distance due to the wariness of the creatures.

Well that settles that for me.