Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?

[draconic chronicler]

Well that settles that for me.

You mean, anything you have not seen cannot be real, even if other people recorded seeing them for thousands of year? Do you think Julius Caesar never existed because you haven't seen his body?

[churchanddestroy]

You mean, anything you have not seen cannot be real, even if other people recorded seeing them for thousands of year? Do you think Julius Caesar never existed because you haven't seen his body?

Of course not. I believe in God, D.C., I just don't believe in Allah or Jesus or YHWH or Odin or Zeus and most certainly not Dragons. What I have found is that every religion takes its little hint of truth and has completely distorted or embellished it to serve its own ends. Was there a Jesus like figure? Probably. Was he exactly what the Bible claimed he was? No, most likely not. In the same sense we can look at your Dragon theory. Do most cultures have "dragon" or "dragon-like" creature embedded in their mythology? It would seem so. Does this mean that Dragons are real? Not in the way you think. Dragons were most likely the product of either fanciful imaginations or exaggerated stories about creatures like crocodiles, alligators, komodo dragons, monitor lizards, and other medium-large sized reptiles.

But, belief in Dragons is your choice D.C., and I can't argue with your right to believe.

[draconic chronicler]

Of course not. I believe in God, D.C., I just don't believe in Allah or Jesus or YHWH or Odin or Zeus and most certainly not Dragons. What I have found is that every religion takes its little hint of truth and has completely distorted or embellished it to serve its own ends. Was there a Jesus like figure? Probably. Was he exactly what the Bible claimed he was? No, most likely not. In the same sense we can look at your Dragon theory. Do most cultures have "dragon" or "dragon-like" creature embedded in their mythology? It would seem so. Does this mean that Dragons are real? Not in the way you think. Dragons were most likely the product of either fanciful imaginations or exaggerated stories about creatures like crocodiles, alligators, komodo dragons, monitor lizards, and other medium-large sized reptiles.

But, belief in Dragons is your choice D.C., and I can't argue with your right to believe.

I never stated dragons were 'Gods' but legends all around the world associate them with a supreme diety, that they seem to serve. Therfore, if you truly believe in a universal, supernatural diety, I am surprised why you would dismiss this universally acknowledged 'connection' to a supreme diety that are 'dragons'. Why would such advanced cultures like the Chinese, Maya and Sumerians state that 'dragons' taught them writing, laws, agriculture, etc if they had only seen a big lizard, crocodile or dry bones? That is just plain dumb, and insults the intelligence of these ancient peoples who still amaze us with their abilities.

[churchanddestroy]

I never stated dragons were 'Gods' but legends all around the world associate them with a supreme diety, that they seem to serve. Therfore, if you truly believe in a universal, supernatural diety, I am surprised why you would dismiss this universally acknowledged 'connection' to a supreme diety that are 'dragons'. Why would such advanced cultures like the Chinese, Maya and Sumerians state that 'dragons' taught them writing, laws, agriculture, etc if they had only seen a big lizard, crocodile or dry bones? That is just plain dumb, and insults the intelligence of these ancient peoples who still amaze us with their abilities.

1. I know that you don't claim these dragons are Gods, but you seem to be putting them forth as some sort of supernatural beings.

2. Part of my belief in God is that while I can claim from a philosophical perspective that God exists, beyond that any quality that I give to God falls under the heading of pure speculation, including whether or not God used dragons as servants.

3. I think its more insulting to the cultures you named to assert that they had to be taught how to do things by dragons. Given that ancient humans weren't all that different from us, I would think that because we can figure out how to do things so can they. Besides there are much more viable theories as to how humans learned how to things like farm than "the dragons did it."

[draconic chronicler]

1. I know that you don't claim these dragons are Gods, but you seem to be putting them forth as some sort of supernatural beings.

2. Part of my belief in God is that while I can claim from a philosophical perspective that God exists, beyond that any quality that I give to God falls under the heading of pure speculation, including whether or not God used dragons as servants.

3. I think its more insulting to the cultures you named to assert that they had to be taught how to do things by dragons. Given that ancient humans weren't all that different from us, I would think that because we can figure out how to do things so can they. Besides there are much more viable theories as to how humans learned how to things like farm than "the dragons did it."

I never asserted humans had to be taught the trappings of civilization by the dragons, the ancient peoples themselves did! I am merely bringing their beliefs to light, and trying to come up with plausible explanations.

But an argument can be made that those peoples that worshipped dragons as dieties were the most advanced ancient cultures. Whereas cultures in which dragons were generally portrayed as evil, like the Germanic peoples, remained virtual 'cavemen' for thousands of years, and while the dragon worshipping Maya, Sumerians and Chinese were building great libraries of stone, these barbarians were illiterate, perpetually drunken thugs whose constructions abilities were limited to hovels of twigs and cowdung. So you tell me why this is so.

Edited July 7, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[Ozi]

Of course not. I believe in God, D.C., I just don't believe in Allah or Jesus or YHWH or Odin or Zeus and most certainly not Dragons. What I have found is that every religion takes its little hint of truth and has completely distorted or embellished it to serve its own ends. Was there a Jesus like figure? Probably. Was he exactly what the Bible claimed he was? No, most likely not. In the same sense we can look at your Dragon theory. Do most cultures have "dragon" or "dragon-like" creature embedded in their mythology? It would seem so. Does this mean that Dragons are real? Not in the way you think. Dragons were most likely the product of either fanciful imaginations or exaggerated stories about creatures like crocodiles, alligators, komodo dragons, monitor lizards, and other medium-large sized reptiles.

But, belief in Dragons is your choice D.C., and I can't argue with your right to believe.

just responding to the point you beleive in god, but not allah, budha, jesus etc or YHWH. Which god do you believe in and based on what truth?

[churchanddestroy]

just responding to the point you beleive in god, but not allah, budha, jesus etc or YHWH. Which god do you believe in and based on what truth?

I don't believe in God as a specific God from any specific religion, but I believe in the concept of a higher power, of which, beyond its existence, nothing can be said with any certainty. I don't believe that any religious scriptures are anything other than stories created by men. There is no reason to believe, from my perspective, that the Torah, the New Testament, and the Qu'ran are divine revelation, which I know, of course, you will disagree with. I guess to put it simply, I just believe in god, end of story.

Edit: I forgot to tell you why I believe what I do. So, as per your request, Ozi, I base my beliefs off of the Cosmological Argument. Simple as that. While I don't think the Cosmological Argument is conclusive when it comes to God's existence, I think it is certainly a better argument then arguments like the Teleological and Ontological arguments.

Edited July 7, 2008 by churchanddestroy

[draconic chronicler]

I don't believe in God as a specific God from any specific religion, but I believe in the concept of a higher power, of which, beyond its existence, nothing can be said with any certainty. I don't believe that any religious scriptures are anything other than stories created by men. There is no reason to believe, from my perspective, that the Torah, the New Testament, and the Qu'ran are divine revelation, which I know, of course, you will disagree with. I guess to put it simply, I just believe in god, end of story.

Edit: I forgot to tell you why I believe what I do. So, as per your request, Ozi, I base my beliefs off of the Cosmological Argument. Simple as that. While I don't think the Cosmological Argument is conclusive when it comes to God's existence, I think it is certainly a better argument then arguments like the Teleological and Ontological arguments.

I agree with part of your view, but there could very well be 'kernels' of truth about this God in the beliefs of various religions. Or do you maintain that this God may have created the universe, but is not even aware of the intelligent life on this one flyspeck of a planet?

Yes, perhaps a real creator of the universe might logically 'not have time' for every planet, which might explain why the diety may have 'enhanced' certain large reptiles to watch over mankind in its formative stages......... or at least this it was world wide dragon legends seem to tell us, but then, what would our ancestors know? Sure they were brilliant astronomers, architects, and mathematicians, but they found a T-Rex skull so believed this had to be their god, right?

[churchanddestroy]

I agree with part of your view, but there could very well be 'kernels' of truth about this God in the beliefs of various religions. Or do you maintain that this God may have created the universe, but is not even aware of the intelligent life on this one flyspeck of a planet?

You know DC, to be honest with you, all I can say is that I think that God exists. Any other quality that I might give him, whether he is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient or whatever, is pure speculation on my part. I don't ascribe any specific quality to the 'God' I believe in.

Actually, here is a better description of what I'm trying to describe: an 'unmoved mover', if you will. Basically I formulated my own philosophy around the old Cosmological argument and an arabic variant, the Kalam Cosmological Argument. For me, however, the jury is still out (for now) on things like the qualities of God, whether morality is objective or subjective, etc. etc. etc.

Yes, perhaps a real creator of the universe might logically 'not have time' for every planet, which might explain why the diety may have 'enhanced' certain large reptiles to watch over mankind in its formative stages......... or at least this it was world wide dragon legends seem to tell us, but then, what would our ancestors know?

Sure, your guess is as good as any I suppose. I can't definitively rule out that God does this or that, but by my best speculation, being that whatever he/she/it is among other things, it is the supreme being of the universe, so I'd imagine God's a pretty busy guy/girl/gender neutral being.

Sure they were brilliant astronomers, architects, and mathematicians, but they found a T-Rex skull so believed this had to be their god, right?

Well DC, given that modern humans are susceptible to silly beliefs, such as a 6000 year old earth, you never know, right?

[draconic chronicler]

You know DC, to be honest with you, all I can say is that I think that God exists. Any other quality that I might give him, whether he is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient or whatever, is pure speculation on my part. I don't ascribe any specific quality to the 'God' I believe in.

Actually, here is a better description of what I'm trying to describe: an 'unmoved mover', if you will. Basically I formulated my own philosophy around the old Cosmological argument and an arabic variant, the Kalam Cosmological Argument. For me, however, the jury is still out (for now) on things like the qualities of God, whether morality is objective or subjective, etc. etc. etc.

Sure, your guess is as good as any I suppose. I can't definitively rule out that God does this or that, but by my best speculation, being that whatever he/she/it is among other things, it is the supreme being of the universe, so I'd imagine God's a pretty busy guy/girl/gender neutral being.

Well DC, given that modern humans are susceptible to silly beliefs, such as a 6000 year old earth, you never know, right?

You are right about that being Silly. But what is interesting is how the Elohim Creation story in Genesis closely parallels the scientific origins of the univers and evolution. How would bronze age man know about the big bang, or that life began in the sea, or that there was an epoch of dinosaurs and birds (called dragons/Tannin in the Bible), followed by the age of mammals and finally mankind. Many scientists have cited how remarkable this is.

But yea, since such a creator would be very busy with a whole univers, maybe the best he could do here was enhance some dinosaurs 100 million years ago to be this planets custodians, and lo and behold, they became mankinds earliest Gods!

[iamfatfrog]

Yahweh?,can you provide a scripture that uses the word Yahweh.i cant find one.seems to me your reading something out of context & misaplying meaning to areas that dont refer properly,i even went to my strongs exhaustive concordance looking for the word and i can find it the either///!!!

[draconic chronicler]

Yahweh?,can you provide a scripture that uses the word Yahweh.i cant find one.seems to me your reading something out of context & misaplying meaning to areas that dont refer properly,i even went to my strongs exhaustive concordance looking for the word and i can find it the either///!!!

You are acquainted with Strong's, yet unfamiliar with the word Yahweh? You are joking, right? If you are not, the word used to be translated into the English as Jehovah, though most Christians unfamiliar with the original Canannite theology Judaism is based upon, are not aware that Elohim and Jehovah/Yahweh are two different deities in what was originally a Polytheistic religion. But it should be obvious, even if you ignore the canannite origins, Jehovah and El have two distinctly different Creations stories in the same book of Genesis!

But back to the more correct "Yahweh", some scholars believe the name is derived from a Cannanite 'dragon' god named Yaw, or Yam, for both are considered sons of El, enemies of Ba'al Haddad and have Asheroth as a consort.

Edited July 10, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[darkbreed]

YHWH interesting deity. And interesting thread. From what I've learned lately, I'm starting to doubt the honesty of YHWH, which is an important part of high magick and ceremonial magic. Perhaps I'll change him with something else something more personal, as I dont feel comfortable evoking possibly malevolent entities...

Good work!

-EA

[Dredimus]

I find it amazing that anyone would base thair belief off of conjecture and mis-translation of old text. I myself believe in God, and other entities as well, but I do not take the translation of the bible to be the absolute truth (anyone who does needs to do a lot of research)

Now, on to my next point... DC talks about how so many regions of the world have reported seeing dragons... So... I took the time out of my schedule this weekend to do a little research of my own... Every Region that has records or sightings of the "Dragon" describe it in a different way, most descibe it as a serpent with wings, other as beast with wings... Nearly all of the Native american "records" describe it as a large water snake...

To put it simply, it sounds like yet another legend or myth made to scare some one for some reason or another.... The boogey man exist in nearly every country as well, in some shape, form, or fassion.... but that doesnt make him real. He is just another legend or myth used to scare children into doing something the way the parents or society wants it done.

[Noteaph]

I just gotta say.. I like your logic draconic. Nice one.

[draconic chronicler]

YHWH interesting deity. And interesting thread. From what I've learned lately, I'm starting to doubt the honesty of YHWH, which is an important part of high magick and ceremonial magic. Perhaps I'll change him with something else something more personal, as I dont feel comfortable evoking possibly malevolent entities...

Good work!

-EA

It may not be that Yahweh is evil, nor do I believe entity is a proper description. I believe he is biological creature that eats (as we see in the Old Testament), that has some paranormal abilities. Yahweh did the job for which he was intended quite well it would seem, but it is folly to make this prideful carnivorous reptile into the creator of the universe, when the facts of the matter show that Yahweh was never more than an assistant to the real creator that essentially watched over a single human culture as did the other dragons around the world.

It is amusing how Chirstian constantly seek to Justify Yahweh's 'ungodly' behavour. As the brilliant Thomas Paine, one of the great architects of the American Revolution said.

"It is not a God, just and good that the Bible describes, but a devil"

Watch for my book, I hope it will be ready by Christmas.

[draconic chronicler]

I find it amazing that anyone would base thair belief off of conjecture and mis-translation of old text. I myself believe in God, and other entities as well, but I do not take the translation of the bible to be the absolute truth (anyone who does needs to do a lot of research)

Now, on to my next point... DC talks about how so many regions of the world have reported seeing dragons... So... I took the time out of my schedule this weekend to do a little research of my own... Every Region that has records or sightings of the "Dragon" describe it in a different way, most descibe it as a serpent with wings, other as beast with wings... Nearly all of the Native american "records" describe it as a large water snake...

To put it simply, it sounds like yet another legend or myth made to scare some one for some reason or another.... The boogey man exist in nearly every country as well, in some shape, form, or fassion.... but that doesnt make him real. He is just another legend or myth used to scare children into doing something the way the parents or society wants it done.

I have never stated the Bible is the absolute truth. Obviously it all cannot be for in one chapter of Genesis Man is created in the last of several great epochs remarkably consistent with Evolution. And then in another chapter, we have a different named God who creates man first, and becasue he is lonely he first creates animals and then woman to keep Adam Company. The first creation is attributed to El. a supreme creator figure in many theologies, whereas it is the dragon Yahweh, who is credited with the nonsensical creation of Adam before anything else, in a world now only about 6,000 years old. No Dred, I don't believe that, but great scientists have been made 'believers' becasue of that evolutionary creation, facts written down 3,000 years ago that only made sense in the last 150 years becasue of scientific discovery.

But the dragons are NOT bogeymen, that is why your idea falls flat. These were not stories to scare children, those stories came very late, when people started to not believe in dragons becasue few and fewer of them overtly associated with man. These dragons were gods who brought rain and taught humans technologies. And they took freely given offering in return, calves, lambs, liqour and even first born children as the Bible records of Yahweh. And most curiously and quite inexplicable, these 'dragons' seem to behave much the same way all over the world with cultures where there could be no contact.

[Dredimus]

I have never stated the Bible is the absolute truth. Obviously it all cannot be for in one chapter of Genesis Man is created in the last of several great epochs remarkably consistent with Evolution. And then in another chapter, we have a different named God who creates man first, and becasue he is lonely he first creates animals and then woman to keep Adam Company. The first creation is attributed to El. a supreme creator figure in many theologies, whereas it is the dragon Yahweh, who is credited with the nonsensical creation of Adam before anything else, in a world now only about 6,000 years old. No Dred, I don't believe that, but great scientists have been made 'believers' becasue of that evolutionary creation, facts written down 3,000 years ago that only made sense in the last 150 years becasue of scientific discovery.

But the dragons are NOT bogeymen, that is why your idea falls flat. These were not stories to scare children, those stories came very late, when people started to not believe in dragons becasue few and fewer of them overtly associated with man. These dragons were gods who brought rain and taught humans technologies. And they took freely given offering in return, calves, lambs, liqour and even first born children as the Bible records of Yahweh. And most curiously and quite inexplicable, these 'dragons' seem to behave much the same way all over the world with cultures where there could be no contact.

I never stated dragons were 'Gods' but legends all around the world associate them with a supreme diety, that they seem to serve. Therfore, if you truly believe in a universal, supernatural diety, I am surprised why you would dismiss this universally acknowledged 'connection' to a supreme diety that are 'dragons'. Why would such advanced cultures like the Chinese, Maya and Sumerians state that 'dragons' taught them writing, laws, agriculture, etc if they had only seen a big lizard, crocodile or dry bones? That is just plain dumb, and insults the intelligence of these ancient peoples who still amaze us with their abilities.

Yeah... I pretty much rest my case... You keep talking yourself in circles....

And as far as the teaching of technology... it wouldn't have been the "Dragons" if you wanna use the old Sumerian (and other) text as fact... it would have been the Apkallu. And if we are gonna believe in the Apkallu, we might as well throw Pazuzu, the phoenix, Scylla, Charybdis, the gorgons, Geryon, ... and lets not forget the Stymphalian birds....

[draconic chronicler]

Yeah... I pretty much rest my case... You keep talking yourself in circles....

And as far as the teaching of technology... it wouldn't have been the "Dragons" if you wanna use the old Sumerian (and other) text as fact... it would have been the Apkallu. And if we are gonna believe in the Apkallu, we might as well throw Pazuzu, the phoenix, Scylla, Charybdis, the gorgons, Geryon, ... and lets not forget the Stymphalian birds....

You still don't get it. The dragons are UNIVERSAL to all of mankind, and believed in for thousands of years. All of those other things are merely the stuff of localized 'fairy tales', and unlike dragon, most of the rest are biologically impossible nonsense.

Literally billions of people still acknowledge dragons for they are part of virtually every contemporary religion.

Edited July 11, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[Dredimus]

You still don't get it. The dragons are UNIVERSAL to all of mankind, and believed in for thousands of years. All of those other things are merely the stuff of localized 'fairy tales', and unlike dragon, most of the rest are biologically impossible nonsense.

Literally billions of people still acknowledge dragons for they are part of virtually every contemporary religion.

It's funny how you avoid the part of the post you didn't want to see up there... still running in circles... it's great really.

And billions of people around the world UNIVERSALLY agree that God is simply GOD. And if my memory serves me correctly, a great many dragon stories do come from Fairy Tales... and to even bring up the biology of such a creature is ridiculous... tell me what chemicals would have to be mixed within the "Dragon" to cause it to breathe fire? Any chemicals you can name off would have serious effects on any animal... Such as acidity... and lets not forget what gasses do under pressure... Face it DC, this conversation has come full circle. With your lack of any sort of evidence, your lack of sources, and your circular logic, I think it's necessary for me to walk away from this thread and let you post your Fairy Tales as you wish. Oh, and shoot me a message when your book comes out... I can't wait to write a book to follow yours up; I think it will be titled... "DC and The Lollipop Dragon"

(edited for spelling corrections)

Edited July 11, 2008 by Dredimus

[draconic chronicler]

It's funny how you avoid the part of the post you didn't want to see up there... still running in circles... it's great really.

And billions of people around the world UNIVERSALLY agree that God is simply GOD. And if my memory serves me correctly, a great many dragon stories do come from Fairy Tales... and to even bring up the biology of such a creature is ridiculous... tell me what chemicals would have to be mixed within the "Dragon" to cause it to breathe fire? Any chemicals you can name off would have serious effects on any animal... Such as acidity... and lets not forget what gasses do under pressure... Face it DC, this conversation has come full circle. With your lack of any sort of evidence, your lack of sources, and your circular logic, I think it's necessary for me to walk away from this thread and let you post your Fairy Tales as you wish. Oh, and shoot me a message when your book comes out... I can't wait to write a book to follow yours up; I think it will be titled... "DC and The Lollipop Dragon"

(edited for spelling corrections)

Several scientists have come up with plausible means for a dragon to wpew fire, which is hardly more extraordinary than an electric eel or a bombardier beetle. The history channel programs gave one possible explanation.

And humans are able to spew fire, if they put a flamable liquid in thier mouths. Use your head. The dragon Yahweh demanded 'liquor' as well as calves, lambs and children. Maybe he used it to awe his worshipers as the bible states he could spew fire..

[draconic chronicler]

I find it amazing that anyone would base thair belief off of conjecture and mis-translation of old text. I myself believe in God, and other entities as well, but I do not take the translation of the bible to be the absolute truth (anyone who does needs to do a lot of research)

Now, on to my next point... DC talks about how so many regions of the world have reported seeing dragons... So... I took the time out of my schedule this weekend to do a little research of my own... Every Region that has records or sightings of the "Dragon" describe it in a different way, most descibe it as a serpent with wings, other as beast with wings... Nearly all of the Native american "records" describe it as a large water snake...

To put it simply, it sounds like yet another legend or myth made to scare some one for some reason or another.... The boogey man exist in nearly every country as well, in some shape, form, or fassion.... but that doesnt make him real. He is just another legend or myth used to scare children into doing something the way the parents or society wants it done.

Well, unless you are part of some new age "god is a space alien" cult, the preponderance of human religions include dragons in their believs. For the record, I have never stated that a 'creator god is a dragon' though they seem to 'work' for such a deity in may human belief systems, sometime considered a sub-god.

The reason the dragon lore in the (real) Bible is significant, is that the Bible describes a creation epic that causes scientists to marvel becasue of its parallels with science/evolution. It is unlikely bronze age humans could have known these things without a real 'connection' to a real deity.

[Virgo]

I think alot of great points are made in this thread. But, you stated that the dragons were Gods? Did I read that right....there is only one God, so wouldnt the dragons be Lords or Archeons or Powers, something below God, a fragment or son of God...would love some thoughts back....

[Virgo]

Well, unless you are part of some new age "god is a space alien" cult, the preponderance of human religions include dragons in their believs. For the record, I have never stated that a 'creator god is a dragon' though they seem to 'work' for such a deity in may human belief systems, sometime considered a sub-god.

The reason the dragon lore in the (real) Bible is significant, is that the Bible describes a creation epic that causes scientists to marvel becasue of its parallels with science/evolution. It is unlikely bronze age humans could have known these things without a real 'connection' to a real deity.

Why cant mankind let go of labels? Why do we label our beliefs as NEW AGE and such. I bet ya that if you took everyone that you would call NEW AGE, and asked them what their deepest thoughts were about their beliefs, I bet they all dont agree. So how can we 'group' individual beliefs? This is the fall that keeps limiting man, man keeps wanting to place boundaries on a belief....WHY? Again, it causes separation, a sense of ego, saying 'you and are I not eqaul because we dont think the same'. People are starting to realize, there is deeper meaning here, so because we see many people questioning the Bible, or saying they have a higher self, or saying they feel they are from a alien soul group....who cares, if it brings them peace and love and brings them to live for others, who cares what you label them with....the point is they are seeking within themselves for answers, this is the ultimate path for growth, some souls are ready for this. I think, that all the NEW AGE is, is that people are tired of being limited, being labeled, being told what to believe. People stepping outside of the box.

[draconic chronicler]

I think alot of great points are made in this thread. But, you stated that the dragons were Gods? Did I read that right....there is only one God, so wouldnt the dragons be Lords or Archeons or Powers, something below God, a fragment or son of God...would love some thoughts back....

Agreed, they are not real gods, just powerful, intelligent animals that early man made into gods. Yes, there would be only one creator but he may have used some incredible life form like dragons to do his bidding.