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draconic chronicler

Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?

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draconic chronicler
El and Yahweh were orginally different entities, not only to the Hebrew, but the the cannanites as well, though Yahweh was a dragon called Yaw or yam. But as the OP states, the bible describes Yahweh much like a dragon as well (spewing fire, wings, hoarding gold, prideful, demanding animal and humans as food, etc.).

I am bring this thread up again for the benefit of Warrior for the Light as the discussion of the physical form of Yahweh was getting 'off topic' concerning "the animals in Heaven thread". But the statement above answers your question, Warrior. It is El, not Yahweh who is the creator God. Yahweh is actually a Seraph dragon, who was assigned to watch over the Hebrews (and explains why he was given a daily ration of lambs and calves, and captured enemy virgins on special occasions).

Edited by draconic chronicler

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Marcus Aurelius
Before dismissing this out of hand, I would ask everyone read the whole post, and read it from the premise that Yahweh and El (Elohim) the actual Creator are two seperate entities, (as many serious Biblical scholars have proposed), with Yahweh actually being the one of many Bene Elohim, which also includes the creature Satan, long associated with flying serpents and dragons. I repeat, I am not proposing that "God is a Dragon", but that the Creator (El, Elohim), created "dragons" as assistants, that have been mistaken as our Gods around the world, including the "Watcher Dragon" of the Hebrews called Yahweh, who through a minunderstanding of scripture is now worshipped by most Christians and Jews as the actual creator.

Here are the facts:

1. The highest heavenly creatures are called Seraphim, a word which the highly esteemed and scholarly Jewish Enclyclopedia states means "fiery flying serpent", though medieval Christians have transformed these "dragons" into the more familiar, swan-winged, "cartoon" angels of popular culture. When the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim into Greek, the word they used was drakon, which is the word our modern "dragon" is derived from.

2. The only graven image/idol Yahweh ever permits is that of a "fiery flying serpent", obviously his personal image, This image has supernatural powers, and Yahweh allows it to be freely worshipped in Solomon's temple. As soon as the idol is broken, disaster befalls Israel and it has never recovered until the late 20th century.

3. The flood story of Genesis is believed by most Biblical scholars to be a "retelling" of near identical, yet far older Sumerian versions in which the God name Enlil, who is also subservient to a greater Creator God is called "a Great Serpent-Dragon of Heaven". His hymns also associate him with rainbows as we see in Genesis, and he is called "the good shepherd".

4. Some scholars acknowledge that the Name Yahweh comes from the Cannanite Dragon God Yaw, who like the Biblical Yahweh is a god of storms and floods, but is a "son" of the true Creator Elohim, also the name of the Creator in Genesis, not Yahweh.

5. Virtually every world culture had identified the winged intelligent dragon as a real creature, and most of the earliest cultures recognize it as the creatue that brought them knowledge of agriculture and technology. This is also true in the Judaic legends with the reptilian "watchers".

6. In Exodous, Yahweh leaves his dragon sized tent, and flies ahead of the Israelites to burn away impassable briars and scorpions. He marks the route by spewing smoke and fire.

7. Yahweh plops his huge dragon body in the bed of the Jordan River upstream to divert its flow so the Hebrews can cross its bed to attack Jericho.

8. He is specifically described spewing fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils, exactly like the dragon like Leviathan that the Bible states he "plays" with. (A female dragon?)

9. Many biblical passages imply that Yahweh physically consumed his meat offerings unlike the "fake" gods of other cultures. The Bible is very specific that Yahweh wanted salt on his meat as well, suggesting these offereing were physically consumed and not merely burned to ashes.

10. Like many legendary dragons, Yahweh occasionally "consumes" humans as well, to include two of Aaron's sons who prepared a sacrifice wrong. In scripture, Yahweh demanded the first born of all Israelites, but the bible says it was possible to pay him money instead, on a sliding scale, also indicating the univesal dragon love of hoarding treasure.

11. The preferred prey of dragons in most cultures are "human virgins" for reasons which are not entirely understood. This trait is very apparent in the Bible as well, where Moses presents Yahweh with 32 Midianite virgins after the Israelite destruction of this tribe. No more is said of them so we can only assume they were "consumed" like Aaron's sons.

12. The Persian Zoroastrians, whom share much reiligous doctrine with Christianity clearly state in their own scriptures (the Denkard), that the "God" of Judaism and Christianity who watched of the Israelites and provided their laws was a dragon, and brother to the dragon Ahriman in their own religion. Interestingly, the storm dragon of Sumeria who flooded the world happened to be brother to the dragon Enki who livied the the garden of Eden and who "tricked" a man named "Adam" out of eternal life.

13. Some Christian gnostics also state Yahweh is a dragon in their scriptures.

14. Jesus stated the Pharisees were worshipping a creature that was NOT his father. Many Christians claim Jesus meant Satan, but this does not make sense, for the Jews clearly worshipped Yahweh and clearly recognized Satan as a distinctly different creature which they definately DID NOT worship. Could Jesus have been referring to the Yahweh dragon? After all he did not call to Yahweh from the cross, but to El. The first paragraphs of the Bible show these are two different entities, for El's creation story is completely different from Yahweh's, far less scientific one.

15. Yahweh is described with "feathers", as depicted on most of the most acnient dragon wings and this idea lasted until medieval times, after which dragons became less commonly seen. Saphira in Eragon is reminesecent of these ancient dragon depictions, and probably inspired the design of this character.

Actually there is enough evidence of Yahweh "being a dragon" to literally "fill a book", (as it indeed has, in my upcoming one on this precise subject des), but thought this is an adequate amount of Biblical facts to gender an interesting discussion.

Can anyone refute these Biblical facts? And shouldn't Christians want to embrace these facts, for the worldwide belief in dragons as benificent supernatural entities has far more theological and even scientific precedent than "a bearded old guy on a golden throne? Might it not be a good idea to recreate the fiery flying serpent image Yahweh ordered Moses to make, something very good that cured sickness, and which Yahweh allowed to be worshipped in his temple for centuries, Israel prospering during all the time it was worshipped, and was virtually annihlated as soon as it was broken?

And might there not be some volunteer virgins willing to appease Him for the good of all mankind, not to mention starting up a daily ration of unblemished calves and lambs like the good old days? And liqour. He asks for liquor in the Book of Genesis. (Actually a lot of the ancient Dragon Gods ask for liquor).

Hmmmm. IMO God is SPIRIT. No physical essence whatsoever. Now I guess if He wanted to take the form of a dragon, he could. But God is spirit, not material, not flesh....of any kind.

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draconic chronicler
Hmmmm. IMO God is SPIRIT. No physical essence whatsoever. Now I guess if He wanted to take the form of a dragon, he could. But God is spirit, not material, not flesh....of any kind.

We are not talking about God here, who is called El in the bible, but one of his creatures that was appointed to watch over the Hebrews, and yes, he is a very physical creature described as breathing fire, having great wings, and eating calves, lambs, first born sons, and enemy virgins..... with salt no less. He dwelled in the tabernacle. He sounds very physical in the Bible. The problem is that only scholars familiar with the cannanite theology understand that Yahweh is an assistant to El, though the Bible does say this as well.

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The Skeptic Eric Raven
I am bring this thread up again for the benefit of Warrior for the Light as the discussion of the physical form of Yahweh was getting 'off topic' concerning "the animals in Heaven thread". But the statement above answers your question, Warrior. It is El, not Yahweh who is the creator God. Yahweh is actually a Seraph dragon, who was assigned to watch over the Hebrews (and explains why he was given a daily ration of lambs and calves, and captured enemy virgins on special occasions).

Good grief. Was it really necessary to bring back this old thread? You have too many threads about dragons already. Heck you post about them even when they have nothing to do wtih dragons.

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WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

D.C.

Can you go back to the post you made 3 back and include for each numbered paragraph from where you are getting this info as fact..if from the bible add the passage please.....or what ever the source is your getting this info...

sorry it was actually brahmann that quoted your post 3 back... thats the one i ment

thanks

Edited by WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

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WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

Yahweh is another name for God, such as Jehova is. A difference only in translations...

It clearly states this below here...Where are you getting your info that El is the creater, and more specifically that Yahweh is a dragon???? I dont find anything in the Bible saying this....

Exodus 6:2

And God said to Moses, I am Yahweh:

Exodus 6:3

I let myself be seen by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God, the Ruler of all; but they had no knowledge of my name Yahweh.

Exodus 6:6

Say then to the children of Israel, I am Yahweh, and I will take you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians, and make you safe from their power, and will make you free by the strength of my arm after great punishments.

( If he was a dragon it would say wing I would think)

Exodus 6:8

And I will be your guide into the land which I made an oath to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it to you for your heritage: I am Yahweh.

Psalm 83:18

So that men may see that you only, whose name is Yahweh, are Most High over all the earth.

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draconic chronicler
Yahweh is another name for God, such as Jehova is. A difference only in translations...

It clearly states this below here...Where are you getting your info that El is the creater, and more specifically that Yahweh is a dragon???? I dont find anything in the Bible saying this....

Exodus 6:2

And God said to Moses, I am Yahweh:

Exodus 6:3

I let myself be seen by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God, the Ruler of all; but they had no knowledge of my name Yahweh.

Exodus 6:6

Say then to the children of Israel, I am Yahweh, and I will take you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians, and make you safe from their power, and will make you free by the strength of my arm after great punishments.

( If he was a dragon it would say wing I would think)

Exodus 6:8

And I will be your guide into the land which I made an oath to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it to you for your heritage: I am Yahweh.

Psalm 83:18

So that men may see that you only, whose name is Yahweh, are Most High over all the earth.

Dragons have 'arms' as well as wings. The wings are mentioned a number of times in Psalms. The Spewing fire from his mouth in II Samual and Psalms.

Yahweh keeps saying "I am Yahweh" to moses to differentiate him from the original Creator, Elohim, who he serves as well.

This is identical to the cannanite belief in El the high god, and Yaw, a dragon assistant.

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WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT
Dragons have 'arms' as well as wings. The wings are mentioned a number of times in Psalms. The Spewing fire from his mouth in II Samual and Psalms.

Yahweh keeps saying "I am Yahweh" to moses to differentiate him from the original Creator, Elohim, who he serves as well.

This is identical to the cannanite belief in El the high god, and Yaw, a dragon assistant.

But Yahweh is GOD....the orig creator...

Where do you get the onfo that El is the "original" creator from???

And what psalms states this about dragons having arms/wings .... Post the quote and where your getting it from like I have done, so I can look it up please....

Exedus 6:2 clearly states that Yahweh is GOD.. there is no one above GOD....

Blessings

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draconic chronicler
But Yahweh is GOD....the orig creator...

Where do you get the onfo that El is the "original" creator from???

And what psalms states this about dragons having arms/wings .... Post the quote and where your getting it from like I have done, so I can look it up please....

Exedus 6:2 clearly states that Yahweh is GOD.. there is no one above GOD....

Blessings

Lets start at Genesis. We have two different Gods here, with two very different creation stories. One story is amazingly similar to evolution, with life beginning in the Sea, the meniton of dinosaurs (dragons) in the same epoch as bird, then mammals, and finally man comes in the last epoch. This is the creation story of the creator creator of the univers, El, or Elohim.

Later after Yahweh arrived, a quite absurd creation story was added in which Adam was created first, and then he was lonely, so the animals were created, and then Eve was created from Adams rib?

I was this goofy story added later on? Because the priest thought they better flatter their "new" god Yahweh. And I don't fbame them. After all he "flamed" two priests who were Aaron's sons, and he ate children and virgins. If I were a Hebrew priest I would probably think it was a good idea to flatter him also.

The Seraphim-dragons have wings and arms and legs in Isaiah. Yahweh breathes fire in Psalms and II Samual. His wings are mentioned at least four times in Psalms. Yahweh says the sacrifices are literally his 'food' in several places.

Edited by draconic chronicler

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WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

Being that Genesis has 50 books...can you narrow it down a bit to where I can find this?

And what verse in Isiah, and Samuel ..... and what psalms are you referring to???

Ive read around 10-15 books in the Bible referring to dragons and they all relate to snakes

Thanks

Edited by WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

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draconic chronicler
Being that Genesis has 50 books...can you narrow it down a bit to where I can find this?

And what verse in Isiah, and Samuel ..... and what psalms are you referring to???

Ive read around 10-15 books in the Bible referring to dragons and they all relate to snakes

Thanks

Obviously the creation stories (BOTH of them) are right at the beginning of Gesesis. And incidentally, the Garden of Eden story was orginally sumerian, and Adam worked for a 'talking dragon diety' who was subservient to the true god in heaven. This Sumerian dragon also warns the original Noah of the flood, and confounds the people building the tower (Babel). In other words, Yahweh is this dragon, first in Sumerian, and the Cannanites knew it too. Heck, even half the ancient Christians (gnostics) regarded Yahweh as a dragon, but then, some though this was the true form of Jesus as well.

The Isaiah verse is the only one your source claimed referred to Seraphim, but this is a mistake. The term Seraph is used several times in the Bible but Christians translate it everywhere else to a fiery flying serpent. But when the same seraphim surround God, then of course, they must be swan winged 'Christmas card' angels and they just leave the Hebrew word Seraphim and hope nobody realises that the fiery flying serpents who kill Hebrews are ALSO Seraphim in the orgiainal Hebrew text. But Christians were not alwasy this stupid or deceitful. For centuries they depicted them as dragons or giant winged serpents around the throne of God becasue this is what the Bible really says. Why the change? Originally only the Church officials had access to the holy scriptures, and of course they knew the Seraphim are dragons. Virtually every church had a last judgement scene of sinners being swallowed up by a heavenly dragon as described in the Apoc. of Baruch. But common folk did not know latin, and never even saw the bibles that potrayed god riding dragons in the illuminated pages.

Ask yourself why other books used by Christianity and Judaism spoke of dragons residing in heaven, such as 1 Enoch and the Apocolypse of Baruch. It is because the ancient Chrisitans and Jews really knew what the word Seraphim meant, and they were winged reptilian creatures. The two books I mentions actually use the word Drakon since they are written in Greek. All of the modern Christian nonsense about 'burning ones' is a lot of double talk to avoid the issue that they are dragons.

Why is this a problem to Christians? Probably because Satan is also described as a dragon, and the concept that these highest of heavenly creatures can be both 'good' and 'bad' is too complicated for some people to understand.

As for Yahweh spewing fire:

2 Samuel 22:9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"Smoke went up out of His nostrils, Fire from His mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it.

King James Bible

There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Of course you can claim this is a metaphor, but the Bible also says he eats animals and is offered virgins, hoards treasure, is prideful, and is constantly 'consuming' enemies and disobedient followers. Does that all sound more like the Creator of the Universe, or a story about a dragon?

Edited by draconic chronicler

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churchanddestroy
Why is this a problem to Christians? Probably because Satan is also described as a dragon, and the concept that these highest of heavenly creatures can be both 'good' and 'bad' is too complicated for some people to understand.

As for Yahweh spewing fire:

2 Samuel 22:9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"Smoke went up out of His nostrils, Fire from His mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it.

King James Bible

There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Of course you can claim this is a metaphor, but the Bible also says he eats animals and is offered virgins, hoards treasure, is prideful, and is constantly 'consuming' enemies and disobedient followers. Does that all sound more like the Creator of the Universe, or a story about a dragon?

... I've already shown you exactly why this isn't accurate. 2 Samuel 22 is the song of David, praising his god for his victory on the battlefield. If we look at 2 Samuel 21, which describes the actual battle, no where in that passage does it describe God directly intervening with David's battle against the Philistines. Surely, surely, if the God you claim YHWH was did, there would have been a passage something along the lines of "and lo, a big ****ing dragon came out of the clouds, spewing fire and thunderbolts blah blah blah and the Philistines were consumed blah blah blah". Oh wait... there isn't one.

Also, the passages that you presented before as claims that YHWH "eats animals and is offered virgins, hoards treasure, is prideful, and is constantly 'consuming' enemies and disobedient followers" are non-existent, the product of your imagination, and completely untrue.

I would like to emphasize, again, that I am not a believer in any of the Judeo Christian religions, rather, I don't like when people produce these nonsensical ideas. Since this is the appropriate thread, however, I am more than happy to debate you here DC ^_^ , so why don't you provide the specific passages that describe all of the things you mentioned where it says YHWH does these things. I would appreciate if you provided the chapter and verses of specific books, or at least the chapters. Thanks

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WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

Yes!!! And who the He11 is El?? Reminds me of an Alice song.......

Chuechand destroy...

I read 2 Samuel 22 and you are correct..It merely indicates that God was wrath (p***ed off)... The passage refers to GOD spitting fire because he was mad...Same as us humans get mad and spit nails so to speak " I was so p***ed I was spitting nails"... just an anology or parabel...

It also says he flew donw from the heavens on a Cherub..... If he was truly a Dragon , He would have flown himself I think.

Ok,

DC... Where exactly again in Genesis it what your referring to....

And who the **** is Alice? (sorry its a song)... No F ment toward you honey.... (anyone remember this song???)

Edited by WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

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Marcus Aurelius

17 "He reached down from heaven and rescued me; he drew me out of deep waters.

18 He delivered me from my powerful enemies, from those who hated me and were too strong for me.

19 They attacked me at a moment when I was weakest, but the LORD upheld me.

20 He led me to a place of safety; he rescued me because he delights in me.

21 The LORD rewarded me for doing right; he compensated me because of my innocence.

22 For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I have not turned from my God to follow evil.

23 For all his laws are constantly before me; I have never abandoned his principles.

24 I am blameless before God; I have kept myself from sin.

Just reading the later verses makes me think that this isn't even some literal event. The writer is clearly using allegory here to insuate the wrath of God against the unjust, and how He rescues the just. This entire passage shouldn't even be interpreted as a real, historical event!!! Its symbolism, just as a huge portion of the OT is!!! Only bits and pieces of it are actually even true!!

Although I've got to tell you this whole 'dragon assistant' thing, while it has no credibility whatsoever, sounds pretty damn cool. I like the idea of a dragon 'plopping' down in the Jordan River as well as destroying everyone who crossed God and the Israelites. Sort of like God's pit bull. Haha. That's a really cool concept....

Edited by brahman1888

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draconic chronicler
17 "He reached down from heaven and rescued me; he drew me out of deep waters.

18 He delivered me from my powerful enemies, from those who hated me and were too strong for me.

19 They attacked me at a moment when I was weakest, but the LORD upheld me.

20 He led me to a place of safety; he rescued me because he delights in me.

21 The LORD rewarded me for doing right; he compensated me because of my innocence.

22 For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I have not turned from my God to follow evil.

23 For all his laws are constantly before me; I have never abandoned his principles.

24 I am blameless before God; I have kept myself from sin.

Just reading the later verses makes me think that this isn't even some literal event. The writer is clearly using allegory here to insuate the wrath of God against the unjust, and how He rescues the just. This entire passage shouldn't even be interpreted as a real, historical event!!! Its symbolism, just as a huge portion of the OT is!!! Only bits and pieces of it are actually even true!!

Although I've got to tell you this whole 'dragon assistant' thing, while it has no credibility whatsoever, sounds pretty damn cool. I like the idea of a dragon 'plopping' down in the Jordan River as well as destroying everyone who crossed God and the Israelites. Sort of like God's pit bull. Haha. That's a really cool concept....

It is compleely credible. I am just getting tired pulling up the same verses again and agian for people who know alost nothing about the Bible. Just reread the whole thread and all the references are there.

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ISAEYEALLSEEING

Yes I agree that dragons could well be something we worship probably because there is a really rather large one dead in Britain near the border of wales (red dragon flag)

I found it some time ago and realised that we mine a fluorescent ore from where its plates lie like those on the classic Stegosaurus now food for thought this thing is something like 40 miles long and lived well before the dinosaurs we know of in a time when everything was giant. its vertabra are still visible today take alook at my work in progress and see what you think any questions just ask and Ill try to answer them from my point of view

http://www.blumation.com/dragon/flashgallery.html

ISA

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Dredimus
D.C.

Can you go back to the post you made 3 back and include for each numbered paragraph from where you are getting this info as fact..if from the bible add the passage please.....or what ever the source is your getting this info...

sorry it was actually brahmann that quoted your post 3 back... thats the one i ment

thanks

Exd 6:2

And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD:

Exd 6:3

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Exd 6:8

And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I [am] the LORD.

Psa 83:18

That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.

And as for there being 2 versions of the creation in genesis... one telling of how adam was taking orders from a fire breathing dragon... gimme scripture... and dont come back with that "you dont know anything about the bible" bit you try to pull on everyone. Im not hearing it.

*edited for typo*

Edited by Dredimus

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WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT
Exd 6:2

And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD:

Exd 6:3

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Exd 6:8

And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I [am] the LORD.

Psa 83:18

That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.

And as for there being 2 versions of the creation in genesis... one telling of how adam was taking orders from a fire breathing dragon... gimme scripture... and dont come back with that "you dont know anything about the bible" bit you try to pull on everyone. Im not hearing it.

*edited for typo*

But how do these relate to your beleif that Jehova, (Yewah) was a dragon?

This is tru the creaters name is GOD, Jehova, Yewah...which ever on you choose....

Where is El as you claim? and where does it say he is a dragon? Thats what I dont get..

Thanks honey...

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Dredimus
But how do these relate to your beleif that Jehova, (Yewah) was a dragon?

This is tru the creaters name is GOD, Jehova, Yewah...which ever on you choose....

Where is El as you claim? and where does it say he is a dragon? Thats what I dont get..

Thanks honey...

that was my point warrior, no where in those verses does it say anything about yaweh or a dragon or elohim.... Ive been set against this stuff for a while now, as has most everyone else, yet they allow him to keep these threads going... I just dont get it... but hey, thats his my opinion.

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The Gremlin

DC associates YHVH with Yam, a cannanite god of the chaotic sea...his name means 'sea'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(god)

the problem here is that Baal Hadad is also associated by many with YHVH, whilst Yam is associated with Leviathan.

Yam is also called 'the seven headed serpent'....DC insists that a multi-headed dragon is an impossibility....like the hydra.

In the epic of Baal, where Baal Hadad and Yam battle, resulting in Yam's defeat, and death....Yam is conspicuously humanoid.

This is interesting, since while El is frequently called 'the bull', we see him 'twiddling his thumbs'.

DC believes that the hebrews initially had this pantheon, but were assigned Yam as their god, and so primarily worshiped him.

so for DC YHWH is Yam (also called Yaw, Nahar, Lotan).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotan

For most people things are not so clear cut....by a long chalk.

(hmmm, in which theology can we find a 'dragon' conspiring to usurp the throne of heaven, only to be defeated and cast out?)---i understand the problems with this parallel, but add it to demonstrate the lasting power of strong imagery.

The Epic of Baal might be worth googling. ;)

Edited by lil gremlin

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WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT
DC associates YHVH with Yam, a cannanite god of the chaotic sea...his name means 'sea'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(god)

the problem here is that Baal Hadad is also associated by many with YHVH, whilst Yam is associated with Leviathan.

Yam is also called 'the seven headed serpent'....DC insists that a multi-headed dragon is an impossibility....like the hydra.

In the epic of Baal, where Baal Hadad and Yam battle, resulting in Yam's defeat, and death....Yam is conspicuously humanoid.

This is interesting, since while El is frequently called 'the bull', we see him 'twiddling his thumbs'.

DC believes that the hebrews initially had this pantheon, but were assigned Yam as their god, and so primarily worshiped him.

so for DC YHWH is Yam (also called Yaw, Nahar, Lotan).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotan

For most people things are not so clear cut....by a long chalk.

(hmmm, in which theology can we find a 'dragon' conspiring to usurp the throne of heaven, only to be defeated and cast out?)---i understand the problems with this parallel, but add it to demonstrate the lasting power of strong imagery.

The Epic of Baal might be worth googling. ;)

Hi there lil cutie...

Do you know from which Jewish texts that DC is referring to this so to help us all out here? How does the epic of Baal relate to the history of Christianity? I dont think i ever heard of it, and dont know how or where it would fit in....

I know he is, as wll as everyone else, entitled to their beleifs and all..... but I never see anything concrete that says to go here and read this so it could be verified or what the source is from.....

Help please if you can. Ill check out the epic of baal to start....

Thanks

Many blessings to you Gremlin

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WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

OK im getting closer here... it is beleived that this is one of many gods they beleived in...polytheist (beleif in many Gods)

Cannanite time... and "Lotan or Lawtan is the seven-headed sea serpent or dragon of Ugaritic myths...."

So far Lotan is only recognized as a myth....

Being that this above IS QUOTED and recognized as myths... what proof is there if this is so?

It mentioned about Yam and some context taken from a tablet...does anyone knwo what tablet? And about a possible misinterpretation due to it being incomplete or broken....

Open minded looking to understand...

Thanks

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draconic chronicler
But how do these relate to your beleif that Jehova, (Yewah) was a dragon?

This is tru the creaters name is GOD, Jehova, Yewah...which ever on you choose....

Where is El as you claim? and where does it say he is a dragon? Thats what I dont get..

Thanks honey...

As I said, read genesis and you will find two different gods, (El and Yahweh) with two completely different creation stories. Adam is created first in Yahweh's Creation, and he is created last in El's creation, which parallels evolution and an old earth.

I never said El is a dragon. He is the Creator. All of the Bene Elohim are dragons, though some, like Ba'al Haddad adopted other symbols, like a bull. Their dragon form is revealed by their requirement for animal (and somtimes human) offerings.

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draconic chronicler
DC associates YHVH with Yam, a cannanite god of the chaotic sea...his name means 'sea'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(god)

the problem here is that Baal Hadad is also associated by many with YHVH, whilst Yam is associated with Leviathan.

Yam is also called 'the seven headed serpent'....DC insists that a multi-headed dragon is an impossibility....like the hydra.

In the epic of Baal, where Baal Hadad and Yam battle, resulting in Yam's defeat, and death....Yam is conspicuously humanoid.

This is interesting, since while El is frequently called 'the bull', we see him 'twiddling his thumbs'.

DC believes that the hebrews initially had this pantheon, but were assigned Yam as their god, and so primarily worshiped him.

so for DC YHWH is Yam (also called Yaw, Nahar, Lotan).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LotanFor most people things are not so clear cut....by a long chalk.

(hmmm, in which theology can we find a 'dragon' conspiring to usurp the throne of heaven, only to be defeated and cast out?)---i understand the problems with this parallel, but add it to demonstrate the lasting power of strong imagery.

The Epic of Baal might be worth googling. ;)

You continue to disappoint me Grem. In the original Ba'al cycle, Yam/Yaw is not killed, he is defeated, but Asherah (who would become Yahweh's consort after Ba'als followers in Canaan were exterminated), asks Ba'al to spare him.

You should also know that many scholars connect Enki, The great dragon of Eridu, as his hymns proclaim, with th cannanite Yaw, also considered a dragon. And of course, Enki and Yahweh have very similar stories indicating Yahweh is Enki, or at least a combination of Enlil and Enki.

We have already seen how it was believed the 'great dragons' of the earth could assume human forms. The invincibility of the Leviathan in Job is symbolic of the invincibility of Yahweh, and both of them are the only creature able to spew fire from their mouths in the Hebrew scriptures. Some accounts state the Leviathan is a female, and Yahweh 'plays' with her in Psalms.

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The Gremlin
You continue to disappoint me Grem. In the original Ba'al cycle, Yam/Yaw is not killed, he is defeated, but Asherah (who would become Yahweh's consort after Ba'als followers in Canaan were exterminated), asks Ba'al to spare him.

You should also know that many scholars connect Enki, The great dragon of Eridu, as his hymns proclaim, with th cannanite Yaw, also considered a dragon. And of course, Enki and Yahweh have very similar stories indicating Yahweh is Enki, or at least a combination of Enlil and Enki.

We have already seen how it was believed the 'great dragons' of the earth could assume human forms. The invincibility of the Leviathan in Job is symbolic of the invincibility of Yahweh, and both of them are the only creature able to spew fire from their mouths in the Hebrew scriptures. Some accounts state the Leviathan is a female, and Yahweh 'plays' with her in Psalms.

it depends on which translation you have, in some he is dealt a mortal wound, and can only gasp " i am as good as dead" before he is scattered or drunk by Baal...in others he is killed.....saying "i am dead" or " i am surely dead".

most commentators state that he is killed.

In the alternative version where Baal kills Lotan there is less ambiguity.

One theory you probably try to ignore is that Yam is the chaotic winter sea (or rather his ascendency comes in winter) Baal rules autumn and spring, and spends summer in death.

Asherah becomes Yam's consort not because she likes him, but under duress, and for the sake of others. She is Baal's partner, this is one of the things that drives Baal to kill Yam.

In yet another story Yam-nahar, the seven headed dragon is killed by Anat, Baal's sister who is good with the bow.

Are you saying that Yahweh is a 7 headed dragon? I thought that you said that they were impossible, unbelievable and just made up. :hmm:

Please show me where in Sumerian mythology Enki is a storm god, or god of chaos, or vengeful, or god of the salt water (he is god of the sweet waters that lie under the earth, and of the earth, and of fertility etc) Yam is the sea....his name means sea. Enki avoids conflict, Yam persues it. Enki is gentle, wise and magical, Yam is violent and ambitious.

The underlined part of your post show some back-peddling. How can he undeniably be Enki as you have often presented if he is a combination? this suggests he didnt exist, and undermines your whole theory.

It suggests that he was indeed a construct....ie: made up by man.

Edited by lil gremlin

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