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draconic chronicler

Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?

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Moondoggy
There are many scholarly articles that convincingly argue that orignally El and Yahweh are different Entities. This is why there are two completely different creation stories in Genesis, the original, evolution friendly version credited to El and the fairy tale version to Yahweh. And archaeology PROVES That the original Storm dragon Yaw of Cannanite mythology was the son of El, exactly as it is stated in Psalms, and implied in Deuteronomy.

And BOTH Storm Dragon Yaw, and Yahweh the Storm God acknowledge Ba'al Hadad as their sworn enemy. WAKE UP Moondog, they are the same diety. That why the Bible say Yahweh breathes fire, has wings, creates floods, blocks rivers with his body, eats virgins, and hordes gold. As well as being jealous, vindictive, cruel, and generally ungodlike. But don't blame him, he's a dragon who works for El, the creator, just like Quin Ling, Queztalcoatl, Kuklakan, etc. 100 million years ago it was the smartest creature to be a heavenly assistant.

We've gone over this time and time again Moondoggy. NOBODY supports your view. The Jewish Encyclopeadia isn't the only source that states the Seraphim are reptilian creatures, just about EVERY Encyclopedia states this except Christian sources with an "agenda". And we have proof from ancient scriptures translated from Hebrew to Greek, translated by the ancient Jewish priests and Rabbis that translated the Seraphim to DRAKONS. This is an undeniable fact. And there are BOTH ancient Jewish and Christian scriptures that state in black and white that Drakons reside in Heaven. By the middle ages even the Jews became ignorant of much of their ancient knowledge that had to be rediscovered through archaology. And as I explained before, ancient Jewish religious laws prescribed exactly how HOLY DRAKONS must be depicted, and these HOLY DRAKONS decorate the MOST HOLY Jewish religious artifact after the Ark of the covenant, the seven branched Menorah.

You are living in total denial guy. The highest heavenly creatures in Judao Christian Theology are Drakons, including Yahweh.

And yes, Yahweh's Personal Idol which the Hebrews had to adore or be killed by dragons (fiery flying serpents) is called the NehashaTAN. Nehash - Serpent, TAN= Tannyn - DRAGON. Serpent Dragon, the same Title give to the Sumerian Storm Dragon Enlil who flooded the Earth, and who was renamed Yaw by the Cannanites, and who would become Yahweh.

Below is an article by a Christian who is also an expert in Hebrew who supports the fact the Seraphim are flying reptiles, EXACTLY as the Jewish Scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia say.

Give it up Moondog. The thing that supports your idea of the swan winged, Pagan humanoid "cartoon angel" Seraphim, are ignorant people of the middle ages that lost their knowledge in the dark ages, and of course, your Christian Sunday School Coloring books. All of the archaeology, and ancient scriptures, and Christian and Jewish art ALL SUPPORT the Draconic Seraphim. It is such common knowledge among real Jews in Israel that the AH 64 Helicopter is called the Seraph, after the Biblical Fiery flying serpent. You lose.

Serpentine / Reptilian Divine Beings in the

Hebrew Bible: A Preliminary Investigation

Michael S. Heiser

Introduction

The focus of this brief overview into the matter of serpentine /

reptilian beings in the Hebrew Bible arises from a study of the biblical

Mypr#o (seraphim). Traditionally, the word seraphim has been understood to

derive from the Hebrew verb Pr#o (saraph; “to burn” – hence, seraphim

would mean “burning ones” or “fiery ones”). While this is certainly

possible, there is another very plausible (and I would say more likely)

possibility that either eliminates seraph as the root, or co-exists and overlaps

with it (I think the latter). This alternative root would mean there are clear,

unmistakable references to serpentine / reptilian beings in the Hebrew text

of the Old Testament.

Naturally, for readers of The Façade (or inquirers on my website), this

would dovetail with what I refer to as the “Watcher paradigm” – that the

Watchers, reptilian beings described in religious texts of great antiquity (cf.

the Dead Sea fragment 4QAmram), are the “root origin” of the worldwide

serpent mythologies that have serpentine gods / flying serpentine beings

as those divine beings which bestowed high technology to mankind and

which fathered the first line of god-(human) kings.

The Data to Consider

It is plain from the contents of the Hebrew Bible that a saraph is a

serpent. The word (as a singular or plural noun) occurs seven times.

During the desert wanderings of the Israelites under the leadership of

Moses, God judges the people (Numbers 21:6) by sending

~ypir'F.h; ~yvix'N>h; (hannechashim hasseraphim; “seraph serpents”) to bite them.

The translation “seraph serpents” is more accurate than “fiery serpents”

(KJV) as we shall see. When the people prayed (Numbers 21:7) that the

“serpents” (there, nachash) be taken away, Moses intercedes for the people.

God then instructs Moses to make a saraph (Pr#o) and to put it on a pole, so

that all who would look at it would be healed from the bites (Numbers

21:8). Moses responds (Numbers 21:9) by building a tv,xon> vx;n> (nechash

nechosheth). Note that in this narrative, the Hebrew words nachash and

saraph are used interchangeably. This points to the fact that a saraph is not a

“fiery thing” but simply a serpent. As further proof of this

interchangeability, in Deuteronomy 8:15 Yahweh is praised twice for

bringing Israel through the desert with its notorious nachash saraph.

With this interchange as backdrop, the prophet Isaiah’s use of saraph

/ seraphim sets up the issue of reptilian / serpentine divine beings. In Isa.

14: 29 and 30:6, Isaiah mentions the @peA[m. @r'f' (saraph me(opheph; literally,

“flying serpent”). More on this below. The famous throne room vision of

Isaiah in chapter 6 of his book notes that in the throne room of Yahweh

there were seraphim –serpentine beings. These beings also had wings and

could fly, and had human features as well (hands, face, feet):

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne,

high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphim:

each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his

feet, and with two he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy,

holy, [is] the Lord of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the

door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5

Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and

I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the

Lord of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphim unto me, having a live coal in his

hand, [which] he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid [it] upon

my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and your iniquity is taken away,

and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send,

and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.

In putting these features together, let’s return first to Isaiah 30:6. In that

text, the flying serpents come from the Negev, that desert area between

Palestine and Egypt. These were either real animals, or the term denoted

some type of spiritual (cosmic) enemy. The latter seems preferable, since

throughout the ancient world certain deities were described in such terms

(flying serpents), and there is no such flying animal.1 The term could also

be used of human enemies, as is implied by the other reference to flying

serpents above, Isaiah 14:29:

1 Some speculate that Isaiah is referencing a pterodactyl-like animal, which is both unlikely and

unnecessary given the surrounding religions.

Isa 14:29 Rejoice not, O Philistia, because the rod of him that smote you is broken:

for out of the serpent's (nachash) root shall come forth an asp, and his fruit shall

be a flying serpent (saraph me(opheph).

%Kem; jb,ve rB;v.nI yKi %LeKu tv,l,p. yxim.f.Ti-la; WTT Isa 14:29

`@peA[m. @r'f' Ayr.piW [p;c, aceyE vx'n" vr,Vomi-yKi

This passage is noteworthy on several levels. Three times the enemy of

Israel, the “chosen seed” (cf. Genesis 3:15ff.) is described in serpentine

terms. The “root” or “seed” (offspring, in Hebrew idiom) is described as

the root of the nachash. Readers of The Façade will instantly recognize this

being as the one in the garden of Eden who seduced Adam and Eve. In The

Façade, I argue that the “serpent” (Hebrew, nachash) in the Eden story of

Genesis 3 was not a snake – it was a divine being, a rebel of the divine

council, which met in Eden, the garden of God.2 God curses all parties

concerned at the Fall in Genesis 3. One of the curses involves the “seed” of

the nachash being bitterly opposed (a perpetual enemy) of the “seed” of the

woman (Eve). The seed of the woman is obviously humanity (and

ultimately, the Messiah; cf. Gal. 3:16). Who are the seed of the nachash?

They are both the original enemies of the divinely chosen seed of the godly

(Noah), produced by fallen divine beings in Genesis 6:1-4. These offspring

are called the nephilim (giants) and gibborim (mighty warriors). The

nephilim and / or gibborim produce succeeding generations of enemies of

God’s chosen seed (Israel). It is no mistake that Moses and Joshua and

their armies continually run into these descendants (like the Anakim; cf.

Deuteronomy 3 and Numbers 13). Later enemies, like the Philistines

spoken of in Isaiah 14:29 above, are logically referred to as the “seed of the

nachash” (recall Goliath the giant was a Philistine, and a descendant of one

the nephilim lines).

Curiously, though, they are also called “flying serpents”. What about that?

2 See Ezekiel 28:10ff. Note the PDF file available on my website bookstore that details

these terms as standard descriptions in ancient Canaan for the divine council’s meeting

place.

In general (preliminary) terms, it seems to me that “flying seraph” would be

a better translation of Isaiah 14:29 –

his fruit shall be a flying seraph (saraph me(opheph).

The meaning behind this, as I see it, is that Israel’s enemies would be

descendants of the reptilian / serpentine beings who seduced human

women in Genesis 6. These beings are called Watchers in the book of 1

Enoch, and are described as reptilian in the Dead Sea fragment, 4QAmram.

It is clear from several passages in 1 Enoch that the writer there considered

the seraphim to be serpentine beings (cf. 1 Enoch 20:7, 71:7; 61:10 – a

description of the cherubim and the serpentine beings who guard God’s

throne –cf. Isaiah 6).

Seraphim, then, are reptilian / serpentine beings – they are the Watchers

(the “watchful ones” who diligently guard God’s throne, which is carried

[cf. Ezekiel 1, 10] by the cherubim, who may also serve as guardians).3

There are “good” serpentine beings (seraphim) who guard God’s throne (so

Isaiah 6’s seraphim), and there are fallen, wicked serpentine beings

(seraphim) who rebelled against the Most High at various times, and who

became the pagan gods of the other nations. Interestingly, 4QAmram adds

a feature to the serpentine Watcher that stands opposed to the good

heavenly watchers: the evil Watchers of 4QAmram are also described as

“dark”. This stands in opposition to the luminous or “brassy” appearance

of good heavenly seraphim.

A Brief note on the Root of Seraphim

Above I noted that there was an alternative root possibility that

dovetails more readily with the serpentine context of seraphim. Rather than

the traditional root of saraph (“to burn”), the root of seraphim may come

from the Egyptian srf (“serpent”). Isaiah especially is known for its

Egyptian flavor in parts, and there are numerous texts and artworks in

3 This conclusion is very tentative, and reflects my suspicion that the reason that descriptions of seraphim,

cherubim, and Watchers (in Daniel) as “human like beings clothed in white linen” have overlapping

features (hands, feet, human face, wings) is that they are names for the same entities (cf. not all cherubim

have four faces, e.g.). This would make Satan an original Watcher – at one time a guardian of the divine

throne. I am still thinking about all this, though, and my views may change.

Egypt that describe and depict serpents. Many of them have the srf as

having wings or flying. Others combine this description with fire (and so

this may give rise to a dual wordplay in the Hebrew Bible – where

seraphim refers to a luminous serpentine divine being). This seems most

consistent.

For further reference (texts and iconography):

Karen Joines, Serpent Symbolism in the Old Testament: A Linguistic,

Archaeological, and Literary Study (Haddonfield House, New Jersey, 1974)

“Serpent” in Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible (Brill, 1999)

It is not my view DC. It is the view of classical Judaism. I am just citing what is there. Any student of Judaism would say the same regarding Yahweh. To say that no one agrees with what I have posted is nonsense. Please feel free to read the works of Gamaliel and Maimonodes upon which all Judaic theology hinges upon to this day.

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Moondoggy

News Flash to serious biblical students: There are over 100 usages of this word "SARAPH" in the OT. Please I invite you all to look them up providing you can use a Hebrew concordance. All the usages will reveal the true meaning of this word. This is the true test for grammatical accuracy. You will see that it just means "fiery", or "burning" or to "burn". Please do not take my word for it and check it out if you want to see that I am not the smoke blowing "dragon" here, but what I have posted is accurate.

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libra II
News Flash to serious biblical students: There are over 100 usages of this word "SARAPH" in the OT. Please I invite you all to look them up providing you can use a Hebrew concordance. All the usages will reveal the true meaning of this word. This is the true test for grammatical accuracy. You will see that it just means "fiery", or "burning" or to "burn". Please do not take my word for it and check it out if you want to see that I am not the smoke blowing "dragon" here, but what I have posted is accurate.

No, no. We believe ya. Man, you've saved the world for us, Moondoggy

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libra II
No, no. We believe ya. Man, you've saved the world for us, Moondoggy

Another News Flash:

It's Christmas on December the 25th

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draconic chronicler
News Flash to serious biblical students: There are over 100 usages of this word "SARAPH" in the OT. Please I invite you all to look them up providing you can use a Hebrew concordance. All the usages will reveal the true meaning of this word. This is the true test for grammatical accuracy. You will see that it just means "fiery", or "burning" or to "burn". Please do not take my word for it and check it out if you want to see that I am not the smoke blowing "dragon" here, but what I have posted is accurate.

Dr. Heiser is a Christian, and a Hebrew scholar, and I dare say he knows far more about the language than you, and he states from the original source material that the Seraphim of the Bible are definately winged reptilian entities. And the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim to Drakons. And the ancient Christians depicted them as winged serpents or dragons. And the ancient Jews decorated the holiest temple furniture with "Holy" Drakons, and the scholars of the esteemed Jewish Encyclopedia state they were originally winged reptiles, and even today in Israel, this is such common knowledge that the AH64 attack helicopter is nicknamed the Seraph, complete with a seraph dragon painted on its nose. Oh, and the ancient Egyptian had a winged serpent-dragon called a Seraph as well. The evidence is overwhelming Moondoggy. Your silly, swan winged, harp strumming, "cartoon" seraphim angels out of your Sunday School coloring books are in reality the winged dragons believed in by virtually every human culture since the dawn of civilization. And guess what, many of the greatest men of the past admit to the existence of dragons, but I don't recall any eyewitness sighting os swan-winged cartoon angels.

There is a very good reason the word seraph ALSO means burning, or fiery. It is becasue this is what dragons "do". They burn things with their fiery breath. And Yahweh's fiery breath and smoldering nostrils are described in the Bible.

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libra II
Dr. Heiser is a Christian, and a Hebrew scholar, and I dare say he knows far more about the language than you, and he states from the original source material that the Seraphim of the Bible are definately winged reptilian entities. And the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim to Drakons. And the ancient Christians depicted them as winged serpents or dragons. And the ancient Jews decorated the holiest temple furniture with "Holy" Drakons, and the scholars of the esteemed Jewish Encyclopedia state they were originally winged reptiles, and even today in Israel, this is such common knowledge that the AH64 attack helicopter is nicknamed the Seraph, complete with a seraph dragon painted on its nose. Oh, and the ancient Egyptian had a winged serpent-dragon called a Seraph as well. The evidence is overwhelming Moondoggy. Your silly, swan winged, harp strumming, "cartoon" seraphim angels out of your Sunday School coloring books are in reality the winged dragons believed in by virtually every human culture since the dawn of civilization. And guess what, many of the greatest men of the past admit to the existence of dragons, but I don't recall any eyewitness sighting os swan-winged cartoon angels.

There is a very good reason the word seraph ALSO means burning, or fiery. It is becasue this is what dragons "do". They burn things with their fiery breath. And Yahweh's fiery breath and smoldering nostrils are described in the Bible.

Trying to trick us all, eh, Moondoggy. Ya finished now, lad

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draconic chronicler
I recall actually hearing of a hypothesis that Yaweh might have been a pagan volcano god, who was later incorporated into the new monotheist framework of Judaism. This was used to explain all of the fire references and hints at old practices of human sacrifices. It is curious to see references to human sacrifice in later times, most Biblical scholars believe that the incident with Isaac represents a change from a time of human sacrifice to something better (I had assumed that Abraham had actually failed God's test, but, since he was loyal he was forgiven).

Also: I checked, and DC is right that there were sects of Gnostic Christians who believed that Yaweh was a dragon.

So: maybe the ancient Israelites did incorporate older symbols into their monotheist system; the Egyptians did this by representing the Atun as the sun, and the Persians did it by representing the creator as a pagan chief-diety (and used the sun reference as well). Regardless, modern Jews, Christians, and Moslems worship the Creator, not the creations. Still, the ancient symbols and rites give some interesting clues as to how current monotheist practices acme to be.

Its pretty clear Judaism was not a monotheism until after the Jews returned from their Babylonian captivity. Prior to this, the 69 other Bene elohim (70 including Yahweh) were all sons of El though the Hebrews regarded Yahweh as the greatest and wisest. This is plainly stated in Psalms and Deuteronomy as discussed before, and this is an identical belief to the Cannanites, in which the Dragon Yaw was the favored son of El. The Jews even acknowledged Yahweh's consort Asheroth. The hostility between Yaw and Ba'al in both Hebrew and Cannanite theology may stem from a rivalry over the dragoness Asheroth. Yaw apparently wins when all of Ba'al worshippers are slaughtered by the Hebrews. With no sacrifices, he would leave, though occasionally there are Biblical accounts of people wanting to gain Ba'al Haddad's favor, which angered Yahweh.

The theory that Yahweh is a "volcano god" is pretty lame. He is described with fire spewing from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils. He is described with wings and is given virgins and meat sacrifices, and when known as Yaw his was called a dragon, just as Zoroastrians and gnostic Christians also acknowledge.

It is the dragons Yahweh, brother of Ahriman that is supposed to destroy a third of mankind in the Zoroastrian legends. When John rewrote this for Revelation, the dragon becomes an army of snake tailed, fire spewing horses with mouths like lions., but they do kill the exact same one third of mankind. Coincidence?

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Archosaur
Its pretty clear Judaism was not a monotheism until after the Jews returned from their Babylonian captivity. Prior to this, the 69 other Bene elohim (70 including Yahweh) were all sons of El though the Hebrews regarded Yahweh as the greatest and wisest. This is plainly stated in Psalms and Deuteronomy as discussed before, and this is an identical belief to the Cannanites, in which the Dragon Yaw was the favored son of El. The Jews even acknowledged Yahweh's consort Asheroth. The hostility between Yaw and Ba'al in both Hebrew and Cannanite theology may stem from a rivalry over the dragoness Asheroth. Yaw apparently wins when all of Ba'al worshippers are slaughtered by the Hebrews. With no sacrifices, he would leave, though occasionally there are Biblical accounts of people wanting to gain Ba'al Haddad's favor, which angered Yahweh.

The theory that Yahweh is a "volcano god" is pretty lame. He is described with fire spewing from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils. He is described with wings and is given virgins and meat sacrifices, and when known as Yaw his was called a dragon, just as Zoroastrians and gnostic Christians also acknowledge.

It is the dragons Yahweh, brother of Ahriman that is supposed to destroy a third of mankind in the Zoroastrian legends. When John rewrote this for Revelation, the dragon becomes an army of snake tailed, fire spewing horses with mouths like lions., but they do kill the exact same one third of mankind. Coincidence?

Actually, I didn't say the volcano god theory was mine, just that this isn't the first time that someone has pointed out certain OT inconsistancies. Frankly, if Yahweh isn't El, than you explanation makes more sense than the volcano paradigm.

Do you propose that he originally described himself as the Creator, or that people originally knew of his station, and that later he was confused with the Creator?

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Moondoggy
Trying to trick us all, eh, Moondoggy. Ya finished now, lad

Not at all Libra. That is why I recommend people look it up themselves. You can see over 100 usages in their context by using an analytical concordance. One does not need to be a so called scholar in order to read. Also to use a reference as DC does, like the Israeli helicopter is a stretch by any means of reason. They call the helicopter the "Saraph" because of the "fire" it can bring, not because of some dragon myth. The definition holds. We called our helicopters "Cobra's" because of the "sting" they would bring to the enemy.

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Moondoggy
Dr. Heiser is a Christian, and a Hebrew scholar, and I dare say he knows far more about the language than you, and he states from the original source material that the Seraphim of the Bible are definately winged reptilian entities. And the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim to Drakons. And the ancient Christians depicted them as winged serpents or dragons. And the ancient Jews decorated the holiest temple furniture with "Holy" Drakons, and the scholars of the esteemed Jewish Encyclopedia state they were originally winged reptiles, and even today in Israel, this is such common knowledge that the AH64 attack helicopter is nicknamed the Seraph, complete with a seraph dragon painted on its nose. Oh, and the ancient Egyptian had a winged serpent-dragon called a Seraph as well. The evidence is overwhelming Moondoggy. Your silly, swan winged, harp strumming, "cartoon" seraphim angels out of your Sunday School coloring books are in reality the winged dragons believed in by virtually every human culture since the dawn of civilization. And guess what, many of the greatest men of the past admit to the existence of dragons, but I don't recall any eyewitness sighting os swan-winged cartoon angels.

There is a very good reason the word seraph ALSO means burning, or fiery. It is becasue this is what dragons "do". They burn things with their fiery breath. And Yahweh's fiery breath and smoldering nostrils are described in the Bible.

You are afraid to examine the other usages. Because you will see the word defined rather than relying on others to do the work for you. Be original here and put some effort in it.

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libra II
Not at all Libra. That is why I recommend people look it up themselves. You can see over 100 usages in their context by using an analytical concordance. One does not need to be a so called scholar in order to read. Also to use a reference as DC does, like the Israeli helicopter is a stretch by any means of reason. They call the helicopter the "Saraph" because of the "fire" it can bring, not because of some dragon myth. The definition holds. We called our helicopters "Cobra's" because of the "sting" they would bring to the enemy.

Fair enough, Moondoggy, but I was only joking around, lad. No skin off my back who "wins" here, but I really am glad to have DC around, and I wish there were more like him here in U-M. People like DC make me think and I love that.

Take care, Moondoggy

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draconic chronicler
Not at all Libra. That is why I recommend people look it up themselves. You can see over 100 usages in their context by using an analytical concordance. One does not need to be a so called scholar in order to read. Also to use a reference as DC does, like the Israeli helicopter is a stretch by any means of reason. They call the helicopter the "Saraph" because of the "fire" it can bring, not because of some dragon myth. The definition holds. We called our helicopters "Cobra's" because of the "sting" they would bring to the enemy.

You are so full of it Moondog. The Wiki article on the Seraph actually said the helicopter was "named after the Biblical fiery flying serpent" but apparently some Christian heretic edited the page. The Jewish Encyclopedia written by fluent Hebrew speakers say the Seraph is "the fiery flying serpent of the Bible", and the Hebrew speaking Israeli Air Force named the helicopter after the Biblical Creature. NOT because it burns, pilots don't want their helicopters to burn. Time to quit, guy, you are making yourself look like a moron again. Like you really know more about this than the Jewish Encylcopedia or the Israeli Air Force. Give it up.

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northwest
It is fully documented that the Hebrews originally acknowledge there was indeed a "god behind the dragon" as you say. The Bible states Yahweh was the greatest of the "Sons of God", and was the "Son" who picked the Hebrew people, just as they believed Ba'al Haddad was another son of the same Creator who picked the Cannanites.

But later on, the Jews would "forget" these things and say that all of the other "Sons of God" in the Bible are "false" and they would meld the dragons Yahweh into El the non-dragon, supernatural creator, and make them the same God. This is why there are two different creation stoires in Genesis, Elohim's Creation that reflects evolution and Yahweh's more fanciful creation in which Adam is the first thing created on the Earth, and animals later, "to keep him company".

Interesting.

Do you have any idea how big this creature might have been?

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libra II
Interesting.

Do you have any idea how big this creature might have been?

Don't know how big he was at first, NW, but he obviously got bigger and bigger:

42 And when they were restored to rods, the rod of Aaron swallowed up their rods.

43 And when the king saw this thing, he ordered the book of records that related to the kings of Egypt, to be brought, and they brought the book of records, the chronicles of the kings of Egypt, in which all the idols of Egypt were inscribed, for they thought of finding therein the name of Jehovah, but they found it not.

44 And Pharaoh said to Moses and Aaron, Behold I have not found the name of your God written in this book, and his name I know not.

45 And the counsellors and wise men answered the king, We have heard that the God of the Hebrews is a son of the wise, the son of ancient kings.

From The Book of Jasher, chapter 79. Compare with Isaiah 19,11

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draconic chronicler
Interesting.

Do you have any idea how big this creature might have been?

Yahweh is probably representative, though His important among other dragons may mean he is larger. The parameters we have are the fact these dragons are large enough to swallow people alive (as several accounts and even some scripture attest, yet Yahweh must be small enough to comfortably fit in his tabernacle. I think 60 feet is a good estimate, thus comparable to the largest known carnivorous dinosaur, the Spinosaur. Yahweh also uses his massive dragon body to divert the Jordan River. The exact location is mentioned in the Bible, and having visited the vicinity, I would say a sixty foot long theropod like Spinosaur, and therefore presumeably Yahweh, could divert the river there exactly like the bible describes, and with no hocus pocus, just tons of dragon.

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The Gremlin

The Jewish Encyclopedia has an article about Seraphim, here it is :-

SERAPHIM

By : Emil G. Hirsch Immanuel Benzinger

ARTICLE HEADINGS:

Vision of Isaiah.

Meaning.

Babylonian Origin.

Vision of Isaiah.

Class of heavenly beings, mentioned only once in the Old Testament, in a vision of the prophet Isaiah (vi. 2 et seq.). Isaiah saw several seraphim, their exact number not being given, standing before the throne of Yhwh. They were winged beings, each having six wings—two covering their faces, two covering their feet, and two for flying. The seraphim cry continually to each other, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory" (vi. 3). The "foundations of the thresholds" (R. V.) of the Temple were moved by the sound of their voices. One of the seraphim flew to Isaiah with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar, and with which he touched the lips of the prophet to purge him from sin. Isaiah gives no further description of the form and appearance of the seraphim; he apparently assumes that his readers are acquainted with them. Nevertheless, it may be concluded from the description that the seraphim were conceived as having human faces, human hands, and human voices. However, one should not too hastily conclude that the seraphim were winged human forms. At least this was not the original conception, although later Judaism pictured them so. The seraphim are frequently mentioned in the Book of Enoch (xx. 7, lxi. 10, lxxi. 7), where they are designated as δράκονες ("serpents"), and are always mentioned, in conjunction with the cherubim, as the heavenly creatures standing nearest to God. In Rev. iv. 6-8 four animals are pictured as standing near the throne of God; each has six wings, and, as in Isaiah, they sing the "Trisagion."

Meaning.

The passages cited furnish conclusive evidence against the idea, popular for a time, that the seraphim belong to the same category as angels. They have nothing whatever to do with the "messengers of God"; in the Jewish conception the two have always been distinguished. Dan. x. 13, the Book of Tobit, and other sources, afford information concerning a series of "chief" angels, but allusions to the seraphim are entirely lacking, and an etymological connection of the name "seraf" with the Arabic "sharif" (to be exalted or distinguished) is equally valueless.

On the other hand, there is a striking similarity between the seraphim and cherubim. Both are winged creatures, half human, half animal; both stand near the throne of God, and appear as its guardians; and, as has already been stated, they are always mentioned together in the Book of Enoch. This, however, by no means proves that the origin of the two was the same; it only shows that in later Jewish conception, as well as in the conception of the contemporaries of Isaiah, these two classes of heavenly beings were closely related.

Some authorities hold that the seraphim had their origin in the Egyptian "seref," a composite, winged creature, half lion and half eagle, which guarded graves, carried dead kings up to heaven, and transmittedprayers thither. The form and office of the seref, however, suggest rather the Jewish cherubim.

Babylonian Origin.

According to other investigators, the conception was of Babylonian origin. Friedrich Delitzsch and Hommel associate the seraphim with the Assyrian "sharrapu," a name which, in Canaan, designated the Babylonian fire-god Nergal. The seraphim, then, would be the flames in which this god manifested himself. An argument against this theory is that until now no one has been able to show that the word "seraph" was ever used as a name of a god. According to a third and more probable theory, the seraphim originally were serpents, as the name implies. Among many peoples of antiquity serpents played an important part in myth and folk-lore. For instance, there were Tiamat in the Babylonian legend of the Creation, and the Uræus serpent in Egypt. Consequently, since the Jews shared the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations in other respects, it should not be a matter of wonder if they adopted this notion as well. That the serpent filled a special rôle among them as a demoniacal being may be seen from the story of Adam's fall (Gen. iii.). In this connection the names "Dragon Spring" and "Serpent Pool" (places in the vicinity of Jerusalem) are worthy of being noted. A brazen serpent brings relief from the effects of the bite of the fiery serpents (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.) which Yhwh sent among his disobedient people in the wilderness. Isaiah (xiv. 29, ***. 6) speaks of fiery, flying serpents and dragons; and a brazen serpent, Nehushtan, stood in the Temple at Jerusalem, and was an object of worship until the time of Hezekiah, who destroyed it as being idolatrous (II Kings xviii. 4 et seq.). The worship of Nehushtan was plainly a remnant of ancient superstition, and was reconciled with the worship of Yhwh by connecting Nehushtan with the scourge of snakes in the wilderness and the rescue from them (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.). Therefore the theory seems possible, even probable, that the seraphim have their counterpart in the flying serpents of Isaiah (comp. also II Esd. xv. 29). It is only natural that these winged guardians of Yhwh's throne were soon ranked as higher beings and invested with the human form or with some features of the human body; and it was because of the very fact that they were adopted into the Yhwh cult that they were, in process of time, ennobled and spiritualized.E. G. H. I. Be.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...88&letter=S

The highlighted sections seem to be relevent to the debate here, The scholars seem to dismiss Isiah's eyewitness report (unreliable?) seeing him as a poetic visionary.

Instead they conclude that the term has its origin in the same place as dragon, Snake.

They mention the Brazen Serpent idol that Moses was commanded to setup, You can search for the good article on the Brazen Serpent- and then further links to Animal Totemism etc.

It appears to me that this image (Brazen Serpent) was likely to have been of a poisonous snake (horned viper?) , and along the process of this totem entity becomming the focus of a cult (one that had to be abolished later because it 'conflicted' with the sole worship of God) the serpent entity 'aquired' wings and possibly other attributes.........

it would be nice to find various representations of the totem in this timeline to mark its development.

We can see this same development with the 'dragon'. Greek mythology abounds with tales of great serpents which 'watch over' items for a god, or do the bidding of a god (hence their name). In their earliest depictions-which predate most of our literary evidence- these creatures are not winged they are great big snakes, they are called singularly 'drakon'. in some depictions they appear to fly...but have no wings. It is during the Late Classical/ Early Hellenistic -to-Roman period that we begin to see depictions of dragons with wings, the one or two exceptions to this are due to cross cultural contact--Something the Hellenistic period later greatly facilitated.

I realise that some of you will read the above article and other relevant ones in the Jewish Encyclopedia differently, and am interested in your views.

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draconic chronicler
Don't know how big he was at first, NW, but he obviously got bigger and bigger:

42 And when they were restored to rods, the rod of Aaron swallowed up their rods.

43 And when the king saw this thing, he ordered the book of records that related to the kings of Egypt, to be brought, and they brought the book of records, the chronicles of the kings of Egypt, in which all the idols of Egypt were inscribed, for they thought of finding therein the name of Jehovah, but they found it not.

44 And Pharaoh said to Moses and Aaron, Behold I have not found the name of your God written in this book, and his name I know not.

45 And the counsellors and wise men answered the king, We have heard that the God of the Hebrews is a son of the wise, the son of ancient kings.

From The Book of Jasher, chapter 79. Compare with Isaiah 19,11

That is an interesting quote Libra, as it states Yahweh is the son of a greater God, which would be El, exactly as the ancient Hebrews believed before the monotheistic reforms made after the Babylonian captivity. And the Cannanite dragon Yaw was also the son of the great El, the creator in the first Genesis account.

Another interesting fact is that Aarons rod does not turn into a snake, but into a dragon, a Tannin. This creature is incorrectly translated in most modern Bibles as whale, but obviously a whale isn't goint to be flopping around in the middle of Pharoahs court. Sorcery if forbidden by God in the Bible yet Moses seems to be a sorcerer. I believe this story was changed when Yahweh was turned into a monotheistic, humanoid God. Originally the staff was probably used to summon the Dragon Yahweh when Moses was in danger, and perhps it was he who swallowed up the Egyptians trying to harm Moses. How else could moses surived this audience with Pharoah? Later, when yahweh was no longer supposed to be a dragon, the story was changed.

The word Tannin is used for the creatures created along with the birds in the Elohim creation story in the epoch after the fish, but before the mammals. They are huge creatures, and must mean the dinosaurs (which have a connection with birds, which science has only recently discovered), but also this word is used for the dragons who live in the time of men, that sing praises to God, and helps Moses in the encounter with Pharoah.

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draconic chronicler
The Jewish Encyclopedia has an article about Seraphim, here it is :-

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...88&letter=S

The highlighted sections seem to be relevent to the debate here, The scholars seem to dismiss Isiah's eyewitness report (unreliable?) seeing him as a poetic visionary.

Instead they conclude that the term has its origin in the same place as dragon, Snake.

They mention the Brazen Serpent idol that Moses was commanded to setup, You can search for the good article on the Brazen Serpent- and then further links to Animal Totemism etc.

It appears to me that this image (Brazen Serpent) was likely to have been of a poisonous snake (horned viper?) , and along the process of this totem entity becomming the focus of a cult (one that had to be abolished later because it 'conflicted' with the sole worship of God) the serpent entity 'aquired' wings and possibly other attributes.........

it would be nice to find various representations of the totem in this timeline to mark its development.

We can see this same development with the 'dragon'. Greek mythology abounds with tales of great serpents which 'watch over' items for a god, or do the bidding of a god (hence their name). In their earliest depictions-which predate most of our literary evidence- these creatures are not winged they are great big snakes, they are called singularly 'drakon'. in some depictions they appear to fly...but have no wings. It is during the Late Classical/ Early Hellenistic -to-Roman period that we begin to see depictions of dragons with wings, the one or two exceptions to this are due to cross cultural contact--Something the Hellenistic period later greatly facilitated.

I realise that some of you will read the above article and other relevant ones in the Jewish Encyclopedia differently, and am interested in your views.

The writers of that article did know their Hebrew (unlike moondog), but could not know of the bronze libation bowl discovered decades later and now believed to be Babylonian loot from the temple of Solomon. It depicts the brazen seraph on a pole, and it is in fact, a winged reptile. If it was a simple snake, it would not have been worshipped. It was worshipped becasue it was obviously the idol of Yahweh, but nowadays this notion is unthinkable to both Jews and Christians, so do not expect to get an unbiased account from these sources. Yahweh is described with wings, breathing fire and smoke, with a body large enough to block rivers, is offered virgins, apparently eats first born children along with calves and lambs, and ordered an idol of a winged dragon built and worshipped under pain of death. If this diety was anything but the God of the Jews and Christians, intelligent people woud say this is obviously a dragon god.

Read Heiser's article. The creatures that attack the Israelites are no mere snakes, but supernatural winged reptiles that serve the Hebrew God (or they are Yahweh's dragon buddies out for a good time).i Or they could be both, actually.

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libra II
That is an interesting quote Libra, as it states Yahweh is the son of a greater God, which would be El, exactly as the ancient Hebrews believed before the monotheistic reforms made after the Babylonian captivity. And the Cannanite dragon Yaw was also the son of the great El, the creator in the first Genesis account.

Another interesting fact is that Aarons rod does not turn into a snake, but into a dragon, a Tannin. This creature is incorrectly translated in most modern Bibles as whale, but obviously a whale isn't goint to be flopping around in the middle of Pharoahs court. Sorcery if forbidden by God in the Bible yet Moses seems to be a sorcerer. I believe this story was changed when Yahweh was turned into a monotheistic, humanoid God. Originally the staff was probably used to summon the Dragon Yahweh when Moses was in danger, and perhps it was he who swallowed up the Egyptians trying to harm Moses. How else could moses surived this audience with Pharoah? Later, when yahweh was no longer supposed to be a dragon, the story was changed.

The word Tannin is used for the creatures created along with the birds in the Elohim creation story in the epoch after the fish, but before the mammals. They are huge creatures, and must mean the dinosaurs (which have a connection with birds, which science has only recently discovered), but also this word is used for the dragons who live in the time of men, that sing praises to God, and helps Moses in the encounter with Pharoah.

Thanks, DC. I'll get back to ya at some time or another

Love ya, mate

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Moondoggy
Fair enough, Moondoggy, but I was only joking around, lad. No skin off my back who "wins" here, but I really am glad to have DC around, and I wish there were more like him here in U-M. People like DC make me think and I love that.

Take care, Moondoggy

No worries! There is two sides to every story. It is more a matter of winning with DC. I do not think he is in a position to overthrow established Judaic doctrine. Take care Libra as well.

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Moondoggy
The writers of that article did know their Hebrew (unlike moondog), but could not know of the bronze libation bowl discovered decades later and now believed to be Babylonian loot from the temple of Solomon. It depicts the brazen seraph on a pole, and it is in fact, a winged reptile. If it was a simple snake, it would not have been worshipped. It was worshipped becasue it was obviously the idol of Yahweh, but nowadays this notion is unthinkable to both Jews and Christians, so do not expect to get an unbiased account from these sources. Yahweh is described with wings, breathing fire and smoke, with a body large enough to block rivers, is offered virgins, apparently eats first born children along with calves and lambs, and ordered an idol of a winged dragon built and worshipped under pain of death. If this diety was anything but the God of the Jews and Christians, intelligent people woud say this is obviously a dragon god.

Read Heiser's article. The creatures that attack the Israelites are no mere snakes, but supernatural winged reptiles that serve the Hebrew God (or they are Yahweh's dragon buddies out for a good time).i Or they could be both, actually.

I unlike you actually read books in my education. Any serious student would rely on a Hebrew dictionary and Lexicon for a word definition. All of them state other wise to your folly. The great thing is that people can look it uo for themselves rather than twisting definitions. You and everyone here has not stepped up to the plate to even read one of the over 100 usages of the word "Saraph" to see it's true root word meaning. Also not one here has bothered to read the "Angelology" section of the un-authorized Jewish Encyclopedia which defines the "Seraphim" in the 10 order of Angels and calls them spirit beings. Again you and I hope any SERIOUS seeker would bother to look it up. Face it DC, you will never undo Judaism because I am sure they would laugh at the bible origins amateur website. I tell you what, if you actually get your "book" published other than by self publishing. I will buy several copies and personally send them to Tel Aviv University for their analysis.

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Archosaur
I unlike you actually read books in my education. Any serious student would rely on a Hebrew dictionary and Lexicon for a word definition. All of them state other wise to your folly. The great thing is that people can look it uo for themselves rather than twisting definitions. You and everyone here has not stepped up to the plate to even read one of the over 100 usages of the word "Saraph" to see it's true root word meaning. Also not one here has bothered to read the "Angelology" section of the un-authorized Jewish Encyclopedia which defines the "Seraphim" in the 10 order of Angels and calls them spirit beings. Again you and I hope any SERIOUS seeker would bother to look it up. Face it DC, you will never undo Judaism because I am sure they would laugh at the bible origins amateur website. I tell you what, if you actually get your "book" published other than by self publishing. I will buy several copies and personally send them to Tel Aviv University for their analysis.

Well, Moondoggy, there certainly has been a bit of contention on this subject before. Angels have variously been described as taking the forms of men (indicating their real from was something other), non-physical beings, winged humanoids, sphinx-like creatures, four-faced chimeras, and of course, flying, fiery, serpents. I believe that the preponderance of information indicates the latter was most often believed to the true form of Serepherim.

I believe the the works of the Bible may have been divinely inspired, but edited by men. I think that these were collections of tribal wisdom, early histories, and priestly writings. They were edited in Alexandria, and certain works (Aproricah) were removed. Then, the Bible was edited again with the formation of the Catholic Church.

Angels have always been a contentious issue in monotheism. They fulfill an important role as intermediaries, instructors, protectors, and examples. However, ecclesiastical authorities have always been concerned that people may begin to worship them directly.

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draconic chronicler
I unlike you actually read books in my education. Any serious student would rely on a Hebrew dictionary and Lexicon for a word definition. All of them state other wise to your folly. The great thing is that people can look it uo for themselves rather than twisting definitions. You and everyone here has not stepped up to the plate to even read one of the over 100 usages of the word "Saraph" to see it's true root word meaning. Also not one here has bothered to read the "Angelology" section of the un-authorized Jewish Encyclopedia which defines the "Seraphim" in the 10 order of Angels and calls them spirit beings. Again you and I hope any SERIOUS seeker would bother to look it up. Face it DC, you will never undo Judaism because I am sure they would laugh at the bible origins amateur website. I tell you what, if you actually get your "book" published other than by self publishing. I will buy several copies and personally send them to Tel Aviv University for their analysis.

How many times do we have to go over this. Distinguished Hebrew Scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia support the Reptilian seraphim. The Christian Hebrew Scholar Dr. Heiseer, who knows far moe about this than you also supports this translation. The Ancient Jews themselves translated the word to DRAKONS.

I am not trying to Undo Judaism, you are. Ancient Judaism acknowledged the seraphim were dragons. That's why there are dragons on the Holy Menorah. That's why the real Jewsih scholars agree with me. Ancient Christians also acknowledged the Seraphim are dragons, as I have proven here many times before. But you believe in a nonsensical, non-biblical Sunday school theology where anything in the bible that seems unsavory to the Anglo-Saxon mind is simply expunged from it.

The noun Seraph, which is documented much earlier than the Bible is the Seraph that appears in the Egyptian Pyramid texts. And guess what, it is a fiery flying serpent, EXACTLY as the Hebrew ones are described. There can be no doubt that the hebrews took this word from the Egyptians.

Yes, legends say they spew fire, and this is why there are verbs connected to burning and fiery associated with the creature.

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67thbook
The Jewish Encyclopedia has an article about Seraphim, here it is :-

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...88&letter=S

It appears to me that this image (Brazen Serpent) was likely to have been of a poisonous snake (horned viper?) , and along the process of this totem entity becomming the focus of a cult (one that had to be abolished later because it 'conflicted' with the sole worship of God) the serpent entity 'aquired' wings and possibly other attributes.........

it would be nice to find various representations of the totem in this timeline to mark its development.

We can see this same development with the 'dragon'. Greek mythology abounds with tales of great serpents which 'watch over' items for a god, or do the bidding of a god (hence their name). In their earliest depictions-which predate most of our literary evidence- these creatures are not winged they are great big snakes, they are called singularly 'drakon'. in some depictions they appear to fly...but have no wings. It is during the Late Classical/ Early Hellenistic -to-Roman period that we begin to see depictions of dragons with wings, the one or two exceptions to this are due to cross cultural contact--Something the Hellenistic period later greatly facilitated.

I realise that some of you will read the above article and other relevant ones in the Jewish Encyclopedia differently, and am interested in your views.

The Arch of Titus and the depictions on the double hexagonal stand of the menorah may be of assistance to you.

Of course, some will say that since it was Roman art, it was a liberty or few taken by the sculptors.

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draconic chronicler
The Arch of Titus and the depictions on the double hexagonal stand of the menorah may be of assistance to you.

Of course, some will say that since it was Roman art, it was a liberty or few taken by the sculptors.

You are right.

Actually, the most knowledgeable Jewish scholars admit the Menorah is Jewish, and an authentic likeness of the original, because the dragons conform to Jewish religious laws that clearly state how a "holy" dragon must be depicted (AZ 43a) . Now why would a pagan Roman sculptor scrupulously follow Jewish religious laws to insure these were holy dragons? The sculptor wouldn't. This proves it is not a Roman invention. In fact, this early Imperial art was known for its photographic-like perfection. Even the sandal laces are completely accurate.

All of the ancient Jewish and Christian art and literature portray the Seraphim as reptilian creatures, which the ancient Jews themselves translated to Drakons as the ancient scriptures prove.

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