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draconic chronicler

Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?

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Lion of Judah

How is Yaweh a dragon cause dragons devour and are only meant in the bible as being symbolic not real

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draconic chronicler
How is Yaweh a dragon cause dragons devour and are only meant in the bible as being symbolic not real

Not at all. The Bible states Yahweh (the dragon) actually consumed his sacrifices unlike "false Gods". There was even a "contest" between the priests ofBa'al and Yahweh's prophet.

And the Seraphim Dragons sent to punish the Israelites were very real to them, and when this word was translated to Greek by the ancient Jews themselves, they were called drakons.

The real Bible only confirms what every other culture of ancient times believed....... that dragons were real, and were their earliest gods, and from one corner of the world to the other, they all shared similar characteristics.

It is only modern Christians who have taken the dragons out of the Bible becasue we no longer see them today. Nobody sees swan winged angels either, but this doesn't seem to bother them. In fact, the irony here is the winge heavenly creatures are dragons, as the ancient scriptures prove. The angels in the real bible have no wings, they look exactly like normal men, and essentially are men. They must even eat food in heaven to live, just as Yahweh eats his sacrifices.

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draconic chronicler
Ahh so thats where you got the salt. Alright then yes at the very least in that instance they did throw salt on it.

Alright using the Parallel bible. <a href="http://biblos.com/" target="_blank">http://biblos.com/</a>

Now i looked up the verse where Aarons sons are supposedly consumed and it says specifically that they were consumed by FIRE. not by Yahweh, and in none of the translations is it even implied that they were eaten.

<a href="http://bible.cc/leviticus/10-2.htm" target="_blank">http://bible.cc/leviticus/10-2.htm</a>

In a later verse, it says that they were carried off. Again in all the translations, this is what happened. If they had been eaten, there would presumably be not much left to carry off.

<a href="http://bible.cc/leviticus/10-4.htm" target="_blank">http://bible.cc/leviticus/10-4.htm</a>

<a href="http://bible.cc/leviticus/10-5.htm" target="_blank">http://bible.cc/leviticus/10-5.htm</a>

Just like I said. So far you have not refuted a single thing I said with scripture. Indeed, I have shown that the scripture fully supports that Yahweh is a dragon, right down to spewing fire from his mouth, wings, virgin sacrifices, and hoarding treasure. Its all in the Bible as I have shown.

The prices have nothing to do with nutritional value.

And the babies most certainly can not work in the temple but that is from a completely different verse much earlier in the chapter linking the sacrifice of the first born to the bondage of egypt and the death of the first born there to let the Hebrews leave. It is a symbolic sacrifice where an animal is sacrificed in the stead of the firstborn. The two verses are in the same chapter but have very little to do with each other.

They have everything to do with each other, and just look at the price scale again. The meatiest, biggest humans cost the most to buy back from Yahweh. To make it simpler for you to understand, what do you think costs more? A whopper junior, or a triple decker whopper?

Answer: the one with the most meat costs the most, just like yahweh's human meals. The bible fully supports what I am saying, and allof this symbolic stuff is meaningless. Yahweh was demanding children, lambs and calves long before the "bondage in Egypt" and you know it.

I would still very much like to see a copy of this Original Deuteronomy, The Henoism article references it but no where is there an actual copy of the original text. At least none that i could find. It was late, i might have missed it.

And yes i can completely ignore the "older" versions of genesis, You said yourself that the Bible was not put together as a book until much much later, i completely agree with you, but that does not mean that it is a distorted copy. There is no proof that the Sumerian text is in any way actually older than the biblical text. Dating is no good here because that will only date the material the text was printed on and not the actual text its self. Come now you must realize this. Simply stating that the Sumerian text is older because the material it was printed on is older is a fallacy of logic.

Of course the Sumerian account was older. Didn't you read my previous post? The story was found in the Amarna archive in Egypt long before most authorities believe the Exodus could have taken place. So if Moses was the first one this story was ever told to, how could the Egyptians already have a copy. Common sense dictates that Abraham knew these stories because he came from Ur. Not far from the original Garden of Eden next to Eridu. And cultural reasons beside the illiteracy of the early hebrew shepherd-nomads is why the story changed a bit from the Sumerian ones. But this does not mean they are not true. For if the story of Jesus is real, the story of Yahweh the dragon must be real as well, and the best record of the early days, comes from sumeria, where the stories were written down properly, not from the altered acounts of Hebrew shepherds.

There is much evidence that the great flood was world wide, not just in Mesopotamia. These people were not idiots and they most certainly did not think that their world was in any way that small. The flood accounts from cultures all over the world should be proof enough but you have only too google the great flood evidence and you will find plenty. As far as mankind thinking their world was small, flat, or the center of the universe, that only came about after because of the fall of the once great civilizations. Not to mention the Dark Ages. The great Pyramid was built with principles that would most certainly have had to include a round earth theory, not to mention the alignment with the starts that still works today. They would have had to have had an extremely advanced knowledge of how the universe functioned to build it so exact.

Hey, I agree they were not idiots. Yet virtually EVERY ancient culture records stories about dragons teaching them agriculture, technology, laws, etc. And the hebrews built a tent for one and fed him all of their first born children and animals. And many other ancient cultures talk about doing the same thing. When the dragons accomplished their mission and left, the sacrifices continued symbolically, and dragons are so imbedded in the human psyche that they still fill our literature, films, etc. But is is a scientific fact the earth could not have been completely flooded 6000 years ago, or that dinosaurs lived with mankind, except for dragons, of course.

I am well aware of the traditional bible story, and some of the other texts, but it is my understanding that even those texts do not paint such a draconian spin on things as you seem to be doing here. Some of those texts were written and then left out of the bible on purpose, probably because they were not accurate. Were all these stories and accounts with dragons in the Torah? or were they left out of that as well?

You have seen that I have not made anything up. I have researched everything I have said. Of course there are dragons in the Torah, the Seraphim that punish the Israelites are "dragons" by the ancient Jews own words as I have shown. The ONLY idol Yahweh ever approved was a bronze, fiery flying serpent (aka "dragon"), which we now know was Yahweh's physical form as the Bible proves. We the this idol was worshipped for hundreds of years -- the times the tribes of Israel prospered the most, so obviously Yahweh was pleased. But once the idol was broken, everything goes downhill from that point on. It is a Biblical, and historical fact.

Dude, seriously, Jews and Christians don't think that dragons had anything to do with their religions because there really isn't all that much to infer that dragons ever had anything to do with the Hebrews in the first place. All of the parts of the bible that you have pointed out, even using the parallel translation, do not mention, allude, or even hint at draconian involvement. The god Ba'al is portrayed as a man shaped god with a staff in one hand and a funky hat. Thats it, there is nothing draconian about him. There are some later versions to my understanding that show him as a half fish, half man god, but dragons are not involved here. Im sorry but as interesting as your theory is, it just doesn't fly.

I know modern Christians are blisfully ignorant of all of this. You are a perfect example. The Christian Pope did his job well removing much of the evidence, and modern protestant/evangelicals have continued the tradition by removing the last traces of the Bible's many dragons in their new translations. But this cannot change the truth that archaeology reveals in the early scriptures. You are just deluding yourself. This is why I have written the book.

And yes, some of the other ancient dragon gods evolved into a human form over the centuries, just like Yahweh, because after the dragons left, humans were uncomfortable with the fact their ancestors worshipped dragons and fed them their children. So there was a coverup. The bible says Yahweh has wings, breathes fire and his closest associates around his throne are dragons. Even his name comes frome the Cannanite dragon Yaw, you even has the same dragon "girlfriend" as Yahweh - Ishtar-Asheroth! But now, in your edited, sanatized, non-bilbical, Christian mythology, Yahweh is this old guys with a long white beard surrounded by blond haired blue eyed swan winged angels. My facts are from the bible itself, and contradict the modern Christian mythology. Even the early Christian artwork of God surrounded by dragon guardians, and the early scriptures about dragons in heaven prove that later chrstians have created a non-biblical mythology becasue they became uncomfortable with the truth.

The fact that Yahweh is a dragon does not change the message of Jesus. Like I said before, it actually brings more sense to some of the things Jesus says, like the fact that the God worshipped by the Pharisees was not his Father. At least that is what the Bible says.

Peace

Edited by draconic chronicler

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The Gremlin

hilarious post dc. Absolute tosh ofcourse but i particularly liked the way you relate to people, some might call it offensive...

the only way the youth of today could be made to understand is if you use a fast food menu as an analogy??....pure gold.

To make it simpler for you to understand, what do you think costs more? A whopper junior, or a triple decker whopper?

and another jem

I know modern Christians are blisfully ignorant of all of this. You are a perfect example...You are just deluding yourself.

if i was a christian i might take that as a slur and a challenge.

and to top it all off you sign off with "peace"...classic.

:lol:

Edited by lil gremlin

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Carcharoth

It's an interesting theory, but honestly, it seems like a pile of crock. If there ever were such a thing as dragons, why hasn't there been found any physical evidence of their existence? And besides, even if certain words in the old Hebrew texts might refer to dragons (or winged serpents, if you like), I hardly think they were meant to be taken at face value as factual evidence documenting the existence of fairytale creatures.

Peace out.

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67thbook
Im sure that you appreciate that josephus is not the only source on the matter...and ive neither the time or the inclination to dredge up all relevant material¸.
I can appreciate no such thing because Josephus is the only source available.

besides...if we always believe josephus then we must accept that Alexander the Great visited Jerusalem and prostrated himself before the lord and declared him the only true god etc yadda yadda yadda. ... need i point out that he was telling porkies?

a single, unverified source is never completely reliable.

Another answer I expected. I bet you would be among those who insist that he attested to your Jesus Christ.

What on earth would Lucien know of the Temple pre 70AD?

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The Gremlin
I can appreciate no such thing because Josephus is the only source available.

Another answer I expected. I bet you would be among those who insist that he attested to your Jesus Christ.

What on earth would Lucien know of the Temple pre 70AD?

such a predictable reply.

1. josephus is not the only source we have for the period.

2. im not christian...shows you dont read what i post. lol

3. if you were familiar with him you wouldnt have said that.

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draconic chronicler
It's an interesting theory, but honestly, it seems like a pile of crock. If there ever were such a thing as dragons, why hasn't there been found any physical evidence of their existence? And besides, even if certain words in the old Hebrew texts might refer to dragons (or winged serpents, if you like), I hardly think they were meant to be taken at face value as factual evidence documenting the existence of fairytale creatures.

Peace out.

Dragons are apparently supernatural creatures and do not die. This is why their remains have never been found. But lets face it, virtually every human culture acnowledged their existence, and most made them their gods. The neverending chronicle of sea serpent, lake monster, dinosaur, pterosaur, sightings around the world are prboably glimpses of the very same dragons our ancestors once worshipped. And no, we won't catch them, becasue they are probably smarter than us.

Oh, and if our ancestors had NOT believed dragons were real, they would never have put them in their ancient legends. The story of Troy was thought to be a "fairytale" until an amateur archaeologist "believer" in the fairytale actually found it! (There are even sea dragons in this story).

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capoeiranger

Hi DC, nice to see you in this subforum! Nice to know you're still going with your arguments there! Just wanna say hi. Next time we should go for a jousting sometimes. :D Cheers!

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kanji
Just like I said. So far you have not refuted a single thing I said with scripture. Indeed, I have shown that the scripture fully supports that Yahweh is a dragon, right down to spewing fire from his mouth, wings, virgin sacrifices, and hoarding treasure. Its all in the Bible as I have shown.

Actually no you have not. Not at all. What you have done is latch onto the word "Consumed" in this case meaning by fire, and it even says "Consumed by Fire" in every single one of the translations you are pulling your argument from, and you have taken that word to mean eaten when you know very well that no such thing is implied by the usage. Now this forces me to wonder whether English is your first language or not because lets be honest, Words and their meanings is something you should have learned in grade school. Then you completely ignore the part where their bodies are carried off outside the camp. Which is also in every single translation. Im not trying to be an Ass here, but it seems that you are ignoring facts to prove your theory right.

They have everything to do with each other, and just look at the price scale again. The meatiest, biggest humans cost the most to buy back from Yahweh. To make it simpler for you to understand, what do you think costs more? A whopper junior, or a triple decker whopper?

Answer: the one with the most meat costs the most, just like yahweh's human meals. The bible fully supports what I am saying, and allof this symbolic stuff is meaningless. Yahweh was demanding children, lambs and calves long before the "bondage in Egypt" and you know it.

Amusing.

Sacrifice had always been a part of the Hebrew culture right back to Adam who had to watch God kill an animal to clothe him and Eve. Now you can ether ignore the fact that these were sacrifices, related directly to sin, and mankinds sin, or you can continue to think that an ancient culture sacrificed every single first born to a dragon. Your logic does not track here.

Of course the Sumerian account was older. Didn't you read my previous post? The story was found in the Amarna archive in Egypt long before most authorities believe the Exodus could have taken place. So if Moses was the first one this story was ever told to, how could the Egyptians already have a copy. Common sense dictates that Abraham knew these stories because he came from Ur. Not far from the original Garden of Eden next to Eridu. And cultural reasons beside the illiteracy of the early hebrew shepherd-nomads is why the story changed a bit from the Sumerian ones. But this does not mean they are not true. For if the story of Jesus is real, the story of Yahweh the dragon must be real as well, and the best record of the early days, comes from sumeria, where the stories were written down properly, not from the altered acounts of Hebrew shepherds.

This is complete speculation. If the Pharaohs had a copy of the Sumerian text in their libraries it could just as easily have been the distorted version of genesis because the events had already happened, and please don't tell me that Adam or one of his children had not written it down somewhere. It is well established that they could speak, write, and had a very good understanding of the sciences even back then. These are people that theoretically are able to use 100% of their brain power. We find remnants of a language that predates all others everywhere on earth. Even here in the states we find places with this writing on it. Coincidentally the government stops any excavation of these places the second they are found.

Hey, I agree they were not idiots. Yet virtually EVERY ancient culture records stories about dragons teaching them agriculture, technology, laws, etc. And the hebrews built a tent for one and fed him all of their first born children and animals. And many other ancient cultures talk about doing the same thing. When the dragons accomplished their mission and left, the sacrifices continued symbolically, and dragons are so imbedded in the human psyche that they still fill our literature, films, etc. But is is a scientific fact the earth could not have been completely flooded 6000 years ago, or that dinosaurs lived with mankind, except for dragons, of course.

Nether of those are scientific facts. Both are complete speculation and as you are so fond of telling me, why don't you google the flood evidence and the dinosaur/mankind evidence. There is more than enough.

You have seen that I have not made anything up. I have researched everything I have said. Of course there are dragons in the Torah, the Seraphim that punish the Israelites are "dragons" by the ancient Jews own words as I have shown. The ONLY idol Yahweh ever approved was a bronze, fiery flying serpent (aka "dragon"), which we now know was Yahweh's physical form as the Bible proves. We the this idol was worshipped for hundreds of years -- the times the tribes of Israel prospered the most, so obviously Yahweh was pleased. But once the idol was broken, everything goes downhill from that point on. It is a Biblical, and historical fact.

While you may not have actually made up any of this, you have taken things out of context, stretched the hell out of the truth, and completely ignored the evidence to the contrary. You are picking and choosing parts out of the Bible that support your theory and ignoring the parts that don't.

I know modern Christians are blisfully ignorant of all of this. You are a perfect example. The Christian Pope did his job well removing much of the evidence, and modern protestant/evangelicals have continued the tradition by removing the last traces of the Bible's many dragons in their new translations. But this cannot change the truth that archaeology reveals in the early scriptures. You are just deluding yourself. This is why I have written the book.

And yes, some of the other ancient dragon gods evolved into a human form over the centuries, just like Yahweh, because after the dragons left, humans were uncomfortable with the fact their ancestors worshipped dragons and fed them their children. So there was a coverup. The bible says Yahweh has wings, breathes fire and his closest associates around his throne are dragons. Even his name comes frome the Cannanite dragon Yaw, you even has the same dragon "girlfriend" as Yahweh - Ishtar-Asheroth! But now, in your edited, sanatized, non-bilbical, Christian mythology, Yahweh is this old guys with a long white beard surrounded by blond haired blue eyed swan winged angels. My facts are from the bible itself, and contradict the modern Christian mythology. Even the early Christian artwork of God surrounded by dragon guardians, and the early scriptures about dragons in heaven prove that later chrstians have created a non-biblical mythology becasue they became uncomfortable with the truth.

The fact that Yahweh is a dragon does not change the message of Jesus. Like I said before, it actually brings more sense to some of the things Jesus says, like the fact that the God worshipped by the Pharisees was not his Father. At least that is what the Bible says.

Peace

Again....Amusing.

Actually yes Yahweh being a dragon and quite mortal, with mortal needs, such as eating for instance, and the desire for Gold, does indeed change the message of Jesus. The entire Bible would become nothing more than a dragon tale that is not based on any actual God, but dragons pretending to be Gods regardless of what you say about them being all sons of God. In the bible it says quite specifically "Jesus, God's only son" quite a few times. It says it a lot in fact. So unless God or El as you call him lied about having multiple sons, we have a problem here. Also if you have Jesus being the son of the Dragon Yahweh we also have a problem because then Jesus is not divine at all and his message is worthless.

The Sacrifice on the cross only works if Jesus is the son of the one true God, creator of the universe. He dies on the cross for the sins of mankind, goes to hell for three days, unlocks the chains of the prisoners, and then is resurrected. Thats how the story works. Dragons don't fit into the story, and the fact that you get around the mortality of dragons by having them be Holy Dragons, or Magical Dragons or whatever the blather you called them, is just absurd because it makes it a completely new religion on the order of Islam being formed from Christianity. You can not have immortal holy dragons with a need to actually consume food, or people in this case, and also the desire to collect gold and silver. Those are physical needs of physical mortal dragons. Not immortal magic dragons.

If you are trying to form a new religion, kudos, but you will not now nor ever be able to bend the bible as much as you are trying to get it to say what you want it to say. My advice to you is to do what Islam did and rewrite the bible. Take the Torah, change a few passages, then write your own version of the new testament where Jesus is a dragon and everything works out the way you want it. Good luck with that. I suggest you start collecting guns now so when the FBI storms your farmstead you can fend them off. Stay away from the blue koolaid.

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dlv
(There are even sea dragons in this story).

TIME OUT: DC, when is your damn book coming out?!

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draconic chronicler
Actually no you have not. Not at all. What you have done is latch onto the word "Consumed" in this case meaning by fire, and it even says "Consumed by Fire" in every single one of the translations you are pulling your argument from, and you have taken that word to mean eaten when you know very well that no such thing is implied by the usage. Now this forces me to wonder whether English is your first language or not because lets be honest, Words and their meanings is something you should have learned in grade school. Then you completely ignore the part where their bodies are carried off outside the camp. Which is also in every single translation. Im not trying to be an Ass here, but it seems that you are ignoring facts to prove your theory right.

Sorry guy, but the bible was NOT written in English. In this one case with the priests, evidently Yahweh didn't eat them, but just lightly roasted them to death. I guess we can't blame him since he was getting all of those tender babies, ewes and calves seven days after they were issued from the womb, (according to the bible).

Sacrifice had always been a part of the Hebrew culture right back to Adam who had to watch God kill an animal to clothe him and Eve. Now you can ether ignore the fact that these were sacrifices, related directly to sin, and mankinds sin, or you can continue to think that an ancient culture sacrificed every single first born to a dragon. Your logic does not track here.

Sure my logic tracks. You should be glad he is a dragon, becasue it would be plain sick if he had all of those slaughtered animals and children simply burnt up for nothing but "symbolism". And the Bible is very clear Yahweh would give you the baby back if you paid him for it. It is that dragon's love of gold.

This is complete speculation. If the Pharaohs had a copy of the Sumerian text in their libraries it could just as easily have been the distorted version of genesis because the events had already happened, and please don't tell me that Adam or one of his children had not written it down somewhere. It is well established that they could speak, write, and had a very good understanding of the sciences even back then. These are people that theoretically are able to use 100% of their brain power. We find remnants of a language that predates all others everywhere on earth. Even here in the states we find places with this writing on it. Coincidentally the government stops any excavation of these places the second they are found.

It is a Jewish tradition that Moses wrote the Torah, but I am not sure if this is stated in the Bible.

Nether of those are scientific facts. Both are complete speculation and as you are so fond of telling me, why don't you google the flood evidence and the dinosaur/mankind evidence. There is more than enough.

No real scientist takes that stuff seriously. In fact much of the dinosaur/mankind evidence is really about intelligent dragons, not dinosaurs.

While you may not have actually made up any of this, you have taken things out of context, stretched the hell out of the truth, and completely ignored the evidence to the contrary. You are picking and choosing parts out of the Bible that support your theory and ignoring the parts that don't.

Not at all. I admit I should have looked deeper into the roasting of the priests, but maybe Yahweh felt they were not fit to eat becasue of their blasphemy, or he was full from all the first born children and animals.

Actually yes Yahweh being a dragon and quite mortal, with mortal needs, such as eating for instance, and the desire for Gold, does indeed change the message of Jesus. The entire Bible would become nothing more than a dragon tale that is not based on any actual God, but dragons pretending to be Gods regardless of what you say about them being all sons of God. In the bible it says quite specifically "Jesus, God's only son" quite a few times. It says it a lot in fact. So unless God or El as you call him lied about having multiple sons, we have a problem here. Also if you have Jesus being the son of the Dragon Yahweh we also have a problem because then Jesus is not divine at all and his message is worthless.

Again you are just revealing how little you really know about the bible. The angels, like the dragons have mortal needs. The bible says they must eat manna in heaven to survive, and they are recroded eating food on earth. They also like to have sex with human women. And Jesus was a heavenly creature, and he at food too. By your logic he must be fake like the dragons.

In the earliest parts of the bible, like the cannanite legends, the true creator god is named El, and this El apparently modified some ancient winged reptile to be his assistants, and distributed them amond all the various human tribes. This is why they all have dragon legends. And Yahweh is the dragon assigned to the hebrews, the same dragon known as Yaw and Yam to the Cannanites.

The creator God El is not a dragon. He would have existed before any living animal. Just because the dragons are called "sons of God" this does ot mean they are literal, biological offspring of the Creator. It is a figure of speech.

The Sacrifice on the cross only works if Jesus is the son of the one true God, creator of the universe. He dies on the cross for the sins of mankind, goes to hell for three days, unlocks the chains of the prisoners, and then is resurrected. Thats how the story works. Dragons don't fit into the story, and the fact that you get around the mortality of dragons by having them be Holy Dragons, or Magical Dragons or whatever the blather you called them, is just absurd because it makes it a completely new religion on the order of Islam being formed from Christianity. You can not have immortal holy dragons with a need to actually consume food, or people in this case, and also the desire to collect gold and silver. Those are physical needs of physical mortal dragons. Not immortal magic dragons.

Jesus HIMSELF confirms much of what I am saying. We know the pharisees worshipped Yahweh. But Jesus said they were NOT worshipping his Father, but were worshipping "a murderer from the beginning". Who could this be but Yahweh, who kills over a million humans in the bible not counting the flood?

And does Jesus call to Yahweh the dragon from the cross? No. He TOLD the pharisees this was not his father. He called to Eloi, as documented by all the witnesses. El the Creator , Not Yahweh His dragon assistant.

Oh, and as to Jesus being a dragon, the New Testament says Jesus true form was NOT human. And if we go all the way back to Sumeria, there was another dragon who the creator loved above all the rest. In his hymnns he is called "the Good Shepherd". Hmmmmm, I think I have heard that someplace before...... But he is also called the "great dragon of the earth". But as we see with Yahweh, the Hebrews were His flock. He cared for them, yes. but like any shepherd, he also ate a few of them now and then.

peace

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draconic chronicler
TIME OUT: DC, when is your damn book coming out?!

I really, really hope to wrap it up over Christmas, but new material is still surfacing. I am glad I didn't publish it prematurely, though I know many people are annoyed it is taking so long. But it will be a better product because of the wait.

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Carcharoth
Dragons are apparently supernatural creatures and do not die. This is why their remains have never been found. But lets face it, virtually every human culture acnowledged their existence, and most made them their gods. The neverending chronicle of sea serpent, lake monster, dinosaur, pterosaur, sightings around the world are prboably glimpses of the very same dragons our ancestors once worshipped. And no, we won't catch them, becasue they are probably smarter than us.

Oh, and if our ancestors had NOT believed dragons were real, they would never have put them in their ancient legends. The story of Troy was thought to be a "fairytale" until an amateur archaeologist "believer" in the fairytale actually found it! (There are even sea dragons in this story).

Most legends have a core of truth (like Troy), but that doesn't mean that legends are to be taken at face value. My guess would be that humans, when we first originated in Africa, saw bones of dinosaurs, which fueled the belief in the mythical creatures that would later become dragons (and as humas spread across the world, the belief in dragons spread with them). Also, believing that something is real does not make it real. The Minoans believed in the existence of the Minotaur, and for them it was real. But obviously such a creature never really existed (same goes for the beliefs my Viking forefathers had; their belief in Thor being an actual deity riding across the sky with his hammer still didn't make him an existing deity).

Anyway, although I disagree with your theory, ir would be interesting to read your book :)

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libra II
I really, really hope to wrap it up over Christmas, but new material is still surfacing. I am glad I didn't publish it prematurely, though I know many people are annoyed it is taking so long. But it will be a better product because of the wait.

I was going to write a book 12 years ago, DC, but..... But one day I WILL WRITE IT.

Good luck with the whole thing, DC

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draconic chronicler
Most legends have a core of truth (like Troy), but that doesn't mean that legends are to be taken at face value. My guess would be that humans, when we first originated in Africa, saw bones of dinosaurs, which fueled the belief in the mythical creatures that would later become dragons (and as humas spread across the world, the belief in dragons spread with them). Also, believing that something is real does not make it real. The Minoans believed in the existence of the Minotaur, and for them it was real. But obviously such a creature never really existed (same goes for the beliefs my Viking forefathers had; their belief in Thor being an actual deity riding across the sky with his hammer still didn't make him an existing deity).

Anyway, although I disagree with your theory, ir would be interesting to read your book :)

You'll have to do better than "dino bones".

Why do cultures all over the world credit dragons with teaching them agriculture, laws, etc?

Why do cultures all over the world assign dragons with nearly identical behaviour and abilities?

Why do cultures believe dragons were reptiles when only experts can discern mammal bones from reptile bones?

Why are there dragon legends in places where there are almost no fossil bones?

Why do histories, all over the world talk of hundreds of people seeing dragons pass over a city, for exmple.

Why do official chinese histories talk about dragons giving people rides, helping move boats, civil servants paid salaries to take care of visiting dragons, etc.

Why are dragons of some form in virtually every human beligion/belief system.

All of this simply because early man found some large bones?

And today, Why do people continue to see "lake monsters" when scientists say they cannot be normal creatures living in those places or they would be found already?

A few bones cannot be the right answer.

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draconic chronicler
I was going to write a book 12 years ago, DC, but..... But one day I WILL WRITE IT.

Good luck with the whole thing, DC

Thanks,

In truth, I have already written three books, but nothing related to this subject. And many articles, artifact lables, etc. And this one already has close to 500 pages. But having a full time job certainly slows down the process, not to mention, still dicscussing the subject daily and getting new leads and information.

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Carcharoth
You'll have to do better than "dino bones".

Why do cultures all over the world credit dragons with teaching them agriculture, laws, etc?

Why do cultures all over the world assign dragons with nearly identical behaviour and abilities?

Why do cultures believe dragons were reptiles when only experts can discern mammal bones from reptile bones?

Why are there dragon legends in places where there are almost no fossil bones?

Why do histories, all over the world talk of hundreds of people seeing dragons pass over a city, for exmple.

Why do official chinese histories talk about dragons giving people rides, helping move boats, civil servants paid salaries to take care of visiting dragons, etc.

Why are dragons of some form in virtually every human beligion/belief system.

All of this simply because early man found some large bones?

And today, Why do people continue to see "lake monsters" when scientists say they cannot be normal creatures living in those places or they would be found already?

A few bones cannot be the right answer.

Same reason cultures all over the world have legends about shapeshifters:

An old belief that spread with humanity.

As for today, there simply is no factual evidence to back up the existence of dragons. Of course, the lack of evidence doesn't prove that there never were supernatural, reptilian creatures. But it doesn't prove that there were either. And if I'd have to choose between a plausible, natural explanation and an explanation based on things that can't be factually proved, I'd most likely opt for the natural explanation.

And regarding the official Chinese history mentioning dragons, the Heimskringla ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimskringla ), which is a collection of tales about old Norwegian kings, contains the Ynglingasage ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglinga_saga ) which claims that the Norse gods came to Scandinavia, and Freyr ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyr ) founded the Yngling dynasty at Uppsala, something that obviously didn't happen (sure, it might contain a core of truth; that a human male person worshiped as a deity founded the Yngling dynasty, but it obviously wasn't founded by an actual Norse deity). Again; just because some old texts are presented as facts doesn't mean they should be considered undeniable facts. The Bible was presented as bullet-proof fact back in the day, but I don't think there's many today that'd think of the Bible as a fact book without any errors.

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kanji
The Bible was presented as bullet-proof fact back in the day, but I don't think there's many today that'd think of the Bible as a fact book without any errors.

lol i do.

Sorry guy, but the bible was NOT written in English. In this one case with the priests, evidently Yahweh didn't eat them, but just lightly roasted them to death. I guess we can't blame him since he was getting all of those tender babies, ewes and calves seven days after they were issued from the womb, (according to the bible).

I am well aware that the Bible was not written in English, and yes in this instance you completely misquoted your source and stretched the truth to make it say what you wanted. Where there is smoke there is fire my friend.

Sure my logic tracks. You should be glad he is a dragon, becasue it would be plain sick if he had all of those slaughtered animals and children simply burnt up for nothing but "symbolism". And the Bible is very clear Yahweh would give you the baby back if you paid him for it. It is that dragon's love of gold.

Not at all. I admit I should have looked deeper into the roasting of the priests, but maybe Yahweh felt they were not fit to eat becasue of their blasphemy, or he was full from all the first born children and animals.

The bible also says the wages of sin is death. Now just think how sick it would really be if everyone who ever committed a sin was killed for it. The alternative, sacrificing animals, is much preferable. It is not simply symbolism. Once again the firstborn and the money had zero connection as shown by...

http://nasb.scripturetext.com/leviticus/27.htm

In the above section, the law regarding a difficult vow is set. It is here where the prices are set for each man and woman of differing ages. If you actually read this chapter you will see that it is referring to the amount of work the individual can contribute. The babies are listed from month to five years, and are the lowest of all the prices. This is because when a baby or child was given to the temple, he or she would be raised by the priests and would thus be worth less than a fully grown person who could simply be told what to do. This chapter does not specify firstborn and in fact specifies all men, woman and children. The firstborn were in a section much earlier in exodus.

http://bible.cc/exodus/22-29.htm

http://bible.cc/exodus/22-30.htm

What this means is that the money listed in Leviticus has nothing to do with the offer of the firstborn. The two passages are not even in the same book. There is nothing in the bible about giving money instead of the Firstborn. In fact there is nothing about actually sacrificing the Firstborn in the bible. The Firstborn is GIVEN to God. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about God eating the firstborn, to say nothing about sacrificing.

No real scientist takes that stuff seriously. In fact much of the dinosaur/mankind evidence is really about intelligent dragons, not dinosaurs.

Actually lots of scientists take it seriously. You make it sound like the dinosaur/mankind evidence is stranger than believing that Holy Dragons who were the sons of the creator God El, existed and still exist in the world. Don't paint me as the wacko here alright.

Just so we are all on the same page here are some links providing evidence of dinosaur and mankind cohabitation. Yes i know most of them are creationist websites, but i promise they wont hurt you.

This is probably my favorite site. While this entire article is fascinating it is more about flood evidence than it is about dinosaurs and mankind living together.

http://www.s8int.com/boneyard1.html

Scroll down a bit on this one.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/r...s_and_the_bible

This one explores the possibility rather than sites the body of evidence.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2704

Chinese Dragons which happen to be dinosaurs. Also a flood reference which so happens supports a global flood rather than a local one.

http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon5.html

Irish Dragons!

http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon6.html

Africa/Arabia

http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon7.html

Despite what people will try and tell you, these have not been debunked as this article reads.

http://paranormal.about.com/cs/ancientanom.../a/aa041904.htm

Also very interesting

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/off...m/dinoclay.html

This one is a bit dated but there are some good arguments here

http://hope-of-israel.org/dinosaur.htm

In literature we like to see the image of the flying dragon helping mankind but as you can see by some of those links up there, much of the "Dragon" evidence is actually referencing dinosaurs and not Dragons. The word Dragon was used for any reptilian creature that was dangerous or rare at the time. There has NEVER been a fossil dug up that matches what we like to call a modern Dragon. Sea serpents come close, and there are reports of large reptilian creatures that resemble the ancient Chinese dragon, but these are not capable of flight and certainly not holy or immortal. They are simply creatures like any other.

Again you are just revealing how little you really know about the bible. The angels, like the dragons have mortal needs. The bible says they must eat manna in heaven to survive, and they are recroded eating food on earth. They also like to have sex with human women. And Jesus was a heavenly creature, and he at food too. By your logic he must be fake like the dragons.

Not at all. you clearly like to misrepresent what is in the bible so once again i will straighten out your twisted logic here.

The Angels do not have mortal needs. What they eat in heaven is completely immaterial to their nature here in the physical world. The Angels can take on human form and eat, they can take on human form and supposedly have sex with human women, though once again that is never expressly said in the Bible and is still debated by theologists to this day. It is never said in the Bible that they need to take in food or drink.

As far as Jesus being a heavenly creature, that is completely untrue. Jesus was born a human like any other. The difference being the method of his conception and who he was. He was however completely mortal and bound to the same physical restrictions as the rest of us. Thus he ate, he slept and then he Died. Jesus did not become heavenly in the physical sense until he was resurrected from the dead.

In the earliest parts of the bible, like the cannanite legends, the true creator god is named El, and this El apparently modified some ancient winged reptile to be his assistants, and distributed them amond all the various human tribes. This is why they all have dragon legends. And Yahweh is the dragon assigned to the hebrews, the same dragon known as Yaw and Yam to the Cannanites.

The creator God El is not a dragon. He would have existed before any living animal. Just because the dragons are called "sons of God" this does ot mean they are literal, biological offspring of the Creator. It is a figure of speech.

You continue to retreat to that old Canaanite legend, which i would still love to see a copy of, however since you have quoted it in every single post i have seen from you so far i think i get the basics. Quoting it over and over again does not address the problem that the entire date of that legend is complete and total speculation. You can only date the material on which it was scribed. Do you really think you have the oldest copy ever written? Same thing with the bible. We can find the earliest writings of the bible and still not know how old it is because people are constantly transcribing these works onto newer materials as the old ones give out. There is no way what so ever to know if the old Canaanite Legend was written before the Hebrew writings.

What you are suggesting would be like me going to borders, picking up a copy of 20,000 leagues under the sea, ripping out a page, carbon dating it and concluding that since the paper was ten years old, that 20,000 leagues under the sea was written ten years ago. The reality is we have no way of knowing when a book was written unless a date is given, and even then you are simply trusting that it is accurate and that someone else had not dated it in their own way.

Oh and no, the constant transcribing did not make the bible lose any of its integrity or change the story in any way. In ages past, the people who transcribed these stories did so with accuracy little seen in the modern world because to transcribe it other than it was written was generally a death sentence. These people are transcribing the words of their divine God, even you must admit that mistakes would not have been tolerated.

It is a Jewish tradition that Moses wrote the Torah, but I am not sure if this is stated in the Bible.

I don't think it is expressed in the bible, but the Torah was started by Moses. Not finished, and certainly not inspired. I would contest that he did not write down Genesis from memory, but was probably working from older writings which would have been passed down through the generations of Hebrew ancestors since the flood. If Noah did not take these writings along with him on the Arc, then he most certainly would have been the one to start the writings which would become the Torah. I would be willing to put money on the fact that there at one time existed an unbroken chain of writings going back to most likely Adam. Most have been destroyed over the years but the writings have been faithfully preserved by those who follow the one true God, and there have always been people who follow the one true God walking the earth.

Jesus HIMSELF confirms much of what I am saying. We know the pharisees worshipped Yahweh. But Jesus said they were NOT worshipping his Father, but were worshipping "a murderer from the beginning". Who could this be but Yahweh, who kills over a million humans in the bible not counting the flood?

And does Jesus call to Yahweh the dragon from the cross? No. He TOLD the pharisees this was not his father. He called to Eloi, as documented by all the witnesses. El the Creator , Not Yahweh His dragon assistant.

Oh, and as to Jesus being a dragon, the New Testament says Jesus true form was NOT human. And if we go all the way back to Sumeria, there was another dragon who the creator loved above all the rest. In his hymnns he is called "the Good Shepherd". Hmmmmm, I think I have heard that someplace before...... But he is also called the "great dragon of the earth". But as we see with Yahweh, the Hebrews were His flock. He cared for them, yes. but like any shepherd, he also ate a few of them now and then.

peace

I would still like to know where exactly you pulled that boldsection there. I do believe its in there, i simply don't feel like searching the entire new testament for it.

Actually Jesus called “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” which translated means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

http://bible.cc/matthew/27-46.htm

ELI is not the name of god. It is simply the word for My God. In no way does it indicate God's name.

Jesus's True form was not human? So we now have Holy, Immortal, Magical, Shape Shifting Dragons?

You know very well that that passage refers to Jesus's spiritual form, which was divine. Not his mortal body.

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draconic chronicler
lol i do.

But if have shown you undeniable truth that the Bible WAS changed to hide the fact that the Hebrews originally believed there were many "Sons of God" and Yahweh was the Son of God that looked after the Hebrews. Deuteronomy in the Dead Sea Scrolls proves this, your Bible was changed sometimes after the Dead Sea Scrolls were deposited. Just like your great grandfathers bible definately had many dragons in it. But in the past 100 years the Bibles were changed in this instance.

I am well aware that the Bible was not written in English, and yes in this instance you completely misquoted your source and stretched the truth to make it say what you wanted. Where there is smoke there is fire my friend.

Exactly, the Bible says Yahweh spews fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils, my friend. I neither misquoted nor stretched the truth, I simply didn't read on furhter to find that he did not eat the blasphemous priests, as he does lambs, calves, babies and midianite virgins, but simply roasted them alive with his fiery dragon breath. Simple mistake.

The bible also says the wages of sin is death. Now just think how sick it would really be if everyone who ever committed a sin was killed for it. The alternative, sacrificing animals, is much preferable. It is not simply symbolism. Once again the firstborn and the money had zero connection as shown by...

<a href="http://nasb.scripturetext.com/leviticus/27.htm" target="_blank">http://nasb.scripturetext.com/leviticus/27.htm</a>

In the above section, the law regarding a difficult vow is set. It is here where the prices are set for each man and woman of differing ages. If you actually read this chapter you will see that it is referring to the amount of work the individual can contribute. The babies are listed from month to five years, and are the lowest of all the prices. This is because when a baby or child was given to the temple, he or she would be raised by the priests and would thus be worth less than a fully grown person who could simply be told what to do. This chapter does not specify firstborn and in fact specifies all men, woman and children. The firstborn were in a section much earlier in exodus.

<a href="http://bible.cc/exodus/22-29.htm" target="_blank">http://bible.cc/exodus/22-29.htm</a>

<a href="http://bible.cc/exodus/22-30.htm" target="_blank">http://bible.cc/exodus/22-30.htm</a>

What this means is that the money listed in Leviticus has nothing to do with the offer of the firstborn. The two passages are not even in the same book. There is nothing in the bible about giving money instead of the Firstborn. In fact there is nothing about actually sacrificing the Firstborn in the bible. The Firstborn is GIVEN to God. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about God eating the firstborn, to say nothing about sacrificing.

You are trying to make the Bible say something it does not. Yahweh says that 7 days after issued from the womb the calves, lambs and babies are to be given to Him. Are you saying the lambs and calves are raised to work in the temple after being taken from their mothers seven days after being born? Of course not, the clear implication is that they are all sacrifices to Yahweh. Now if you want to believe they simply had their throat cut and were tossed on the fire, "for Yahweh" I guess you can. But why were they seasoned with salt if they were just being burnt? And why did the Hebrews boast their "living god" actually consumed the sacrifices? It was the pagans that had to burn the bodies that Yahweh actually consumed.

Actually lots of scientists take it seriously. You make it sound like the dinosaur/mankind evidence is stranger than believing that Holy Dragons who were the sons of the creator God El, existed and still exist in the world. Don't paint me as the wacko here alright.

These ideas that the historical dragons are dinosaurs is much stranger. Dragons as supernatural creatures is the ONLY plausible explanation for all of the "dragon" sightings in the time of men. YOU are the one taking the stories out of context. Virtually all of these legendary dragons you say are dinosaurs, are clearly supernatural, becasuse they are hgihly intelligent and even talk! People all over the world worshipped them as Gods that taught them agriculture and lawss. And the DRAGONS IN THE BIBLE sing praises to God! So are you saying these a just walnut brained dinosaurs bellowing around the throne of God? No. You know so little about the real bible that you think the creatures which the ancient Jewish rabbis called "drakons" that sang praises to God and kept the altar buring with their fiery breath are nonsensical, swan winged humanoid angels, stolen from Pagan Roman mythology by your guessed it, the ROMAN Catholics.

Just so we are all on the same page here are some links providing evidence of dinosaur and mankind cohabitation. Yes i know most of them are creationist websites, but i promise they wont hurt you.

This is probably my favorite site. While this entire article is fascinating it is more about flood evidence than it is about dinosaurs and mankind living together.

<a href="http://www.s8int.com/boneyard1.html" target="_blank">http://www.s8int.com/boneyard1.html</a>

Scroll down a bit on this one.

<a href="http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/r...s_and_the_bible" target="_blank">http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/r...s_and_the_bible</a>

This one explores the possibility rather than sites the body of evidence.

<a href="http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2704" target="_blank">http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2704</a>

Chinese Dragons which happen to be dinosaurs. Also a flood reference which so happens supports a global flood rather than a local one.

<a href="http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon5.html" target="_blank">http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon5.html</a>

Irish Dragons!

<a href="http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon6.html" target="_blank">http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon6.html</a>

Africa/Arabia

<a href="http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon7.html" target="_blank">http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-dragon7.html</a>

Despite what people will try and tell you, these have not been debunked as this article reads.

<a href="http://paranormal.about.com/cs/ancientanom.../a/aa041904.htm" target="_blank">http://paranormal.about.com/cs/ancientanom.../a/aa041904.htm</a>

Also very interesting

<a href="http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/off...m/dinoclay.html" target="_blank">http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/off...m/dinoclay.html</a>

This one is a bit dated but there are some good arguments here

<a href="http://hope-of-israel.org/dinosaur.htm" target="_blank">http://hope-of-israel.org/dinosaur.htm</a>

In literature we like to see the image of the flying dragon helping mankind but as you can see by some of those links up there, much of the "Dragon" evidence is actually referencing dinosaurs and not Dragons. The word Dragon was used for any reptilian creature that was dangerous or rare at the time. There has NEVER been a fossil dug up that matches what we like to call a modern Dragon. Sea serpents come close, and there are reports of large reptilian creatures that resemble the ancient Chinese dragon, but these are not capable of flight and certainly not holy or immortal. They are simply creatures like any other.

Actually you are wrong again. The two dragons who took Adam to heaven in the original Eden story are pictured on a libation vase in the Louvre, and they have long necks, reptilian heads, wings (like Yahweh), clawed feet and a long tail. Just like the modern and medieval and ancient concept of dragons. These dragons guard the gates of heafven too, and are the original Cherubim. In the Hebrew version, instead of taking Adam to heaven, they chase him out of Eden.

Not at all. you clearly like to misrepresent what is in the bible so once again i will straighten out your twisted logic here.

The Angels do not have mortal needs. What they eat in heaven is completely immaterial to their nature here in the physical world. The Angels can take on human form and eat, they can take on human form and supposedly have sex with human women, though once again that is never expressly said in the Bible and is still debated by theologists to this day. It is never said in the Bible that they need to take in food or drink.

Wrong again. The old Testament Angels eat Manna in heaven, and this is a physical substance that the hebrews also eat. This plus the sex thing prove they are biological creatures, but like the heavenly dragons, apparently do not age. And the Nephilim in the Bible are said to be the offspring of angels and human women. I suspect the heavenly dragons (seraphim) also eat this manna, though we see that the ones that come to earth like Yahweh (and many in dragon legends around the world), prefer animals and humans. Virgins seem to be popular dragon fare, and the Bible is not different. Yahweh is given 32 virgins. What you do not understand is that it is not until pagan Greek beliefs contaminated the Bible that we have invisible spirit angels. The Old Testament angels eat food just like the heavenly dragons. Its in the Bible , guy.

As far as Jesus being a heavenly creature, that is completely untrue. Jesus was born a human like any other. The difference being the method of his conception and who he was. He was however completely mortal and bound to the same physical restrictions as the rest of us. Thus he ate, he slept and then he Died. Jesus did not become heavenly in the physical sense until he was resurrected from the dead.

I'm just saying what the bible says. Jesus existed as a heavenly creature before this, and he did not look like a human. He says he was with Hi Father from the beginning.

You continue to retreat to that old Canaanite legend, which i would still love to see a copy of, however since you have quoted it in every single post i have seen from you so far i think i get the basics. Quoting it over and over again does not address the problem that the entire date of that legend is complete and total speculation. You can only date the material on which it was scribed. Do you really think you have the oldest copy ever written? Same thing with the bible. We can find the earliest writings of the bible and still not know how old it is because people are constantly transcribing these works onto newer materials as the old ones give out. There is no way what so ever to know if the old Canaanite Legend was written before the Hebrew writings.

The point is, in the Cannanite legends as well as the early Bible, there is a council of these son of El, including Yahweh. You read this in the Henoism article written by a scholars. And we know from archaeology that Yahweh and Yaw both had a consort called Asheroth, who was also Yahweh the dragon's consort by her sumerian name Ishtar back in Sumeria. In the behinning of Genesis, it is El who creates the world, not Yahweh. This was added later, and why to two creations are inconsistent with one another.

What you are suggesting would be like me going to borders, picking up a copy of 20,000 leagues under the sea, ripping out a page, carbon dating it and concluding that since the paper was ten years old, that 20,000 leagues under the sea was written ten years ago. The reality is we have no way of knowing when a book was written unless a date is given, and even then you are simply trusting that it is accurate and that someone else had not dated it in their own way.

No. I am saying what the Bible says, that Abraham came from Ur, which is in Sumeria, where nearly 5,000 year old tablets tell us the original eden story that was wirtten down by moses around 2,000 years later.

Oh and no, the constant transcribing did not make the bible lose any of its integrity or change the story in any way. In ages past, the people who transcribed these stories did so with accuracy little seen in the modern world because to transcribe it other than it was written was generally a death sentence. These people are transcribing the words of their divine God, even you must admit that mistakes would not have been tolerated.

I have already proven that the Bible in inaccurate, becasue the multiple "Gods" were taken out of Deuteronomy sometimes after the Dead Sea scrolls were hidden. It is just like the Heavenly Dragons. The ancient, excavated texts prove that the ancient rabbis who translated these clled the seraphim Drakons, but this is no surprise, because modern hebrew scholars say this is what the wordreally means as we see in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

All of the the ANCIENT scriptural evidence supports what I am saying. It is not my fault Modern christians have turned the seraphim dragons into swan winged cartoon angels.

I don't think it is expressed in the bible, but the Torah was started by Moses. Not finished, and certainly not inspired. I would contest that he did not write down Genesis from memory, but was probably working from older writings which would have been passed down through the generations of Hebrew ancestors since the flood. If Noah did not take these writings along with him on the Arc, then he most certainly would have been the one to start the writings which would become the Torah. I would be willing to put money on the fact that there at one time existed an unbroken chain of writings going back to most likely Adam. Most have been destroyed over the years but the writings have been faithfully preserved by those who follow the one true God, and there have always been people who follow the one true God walking the earth.

Wooaah, Dude. The Torah is not inspired? No wonder you know so little about the real bible untainted by modern Christian changes. The Torah IS the first five books of the Bible! But don't take my word for it, read it in Wiki :

"The Torah (תּוֹרָה) is the most important document in Judaism, revered as the inspired word of God, traditionally said to have been revealed to Moses. The word Torah means "teaching," "instruction," "scribe", or "law" in Hebrew. It is also known as the Five Books of Moses, the Law of Moses (Torat Moshe תּוֹרַת־מֹשֶׁה) or Sefer Torah (which refers to the scroll cases in which the books were kept), in Greek called Pentateuch (Πεντετεύχως "five rolls or cases").

Other names current in Judaism include Hamisha Humshei Torah (חמשה חומשי תורה, "[the] five fifths/parts [of the] Torah") or simply the Humash (חוּמָשׁ "fifth"). A Sefer Torah is a formal written scroll of the five books, written by a Torah scribe under exceptionally strict requirements. The term is sometimes also used in the general sense to also include both Judaism's written law and oral law, encompassing the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash, and more.

.The five books, their names and pronunciations in the original Hebrew, are as follows:

Genesis (בראשית, Beresh**: "In the beginning...")

Exodus (שמות, Shemot: "Names")

Leviticus (ויקרא, Vayyiqra: "And he called...")

Numbers (במדבר, Bamidbar: "In the desert...")

Deuteronomy (דברים, Devarim: "Words", "Discourses", or "Things")"

END WIKI

And you don't even understand that the ancient Hebrews believed there was a Creator in heaven called El, and one of his many "dragon" sons shepherded the tribe of Hebrews, just as other "sons of god" presided over other human tribes. This is the real bible before it was changed by Roman popes. The Dead Sea Scrolls PROVE I am right.

I would still like to know where exactly you pulled that boldsection there. I do believe its in there, i simply don't feel like searching the entire new testament for it.

Actually Jesus called “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” which translated means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

<a href="http://bible.cc/matthew/27-46.htm" target="_blank">http://bible.cc/matthew/27-46.htm</a>

ELI is not the name of god. It is simply the word for My God. In no way does it indicate God's name.

Actually it does indicate God's name, because both the Old Testament and Cannanite scriptures state El is the name of the Creator God. This is why Bene Elohim are the Sons of God. Just like the dead sea scrolls document, but was changed. (Just like the Christians who changed the seraphim from dragons to cartoon angels.)

Jesus's True form was not human? So we now have Holy, Immortal, Magical, Shape Shifting Dragons?

You know very well that that passage refers to Jesus's spiritual form, which was divine. Not his mortal body.

I never said that. But the Disciples and many others thought Jesus was the reincarnated Elijah. But the dragon servants of God probably existed milions of years before humans evolved. Therfore there could not have been humanoid angels for millions of years either. Therfore Jesus may have been this "Good Shepherd" Son of God" in the Sumerian hymns.

Peace

Edited by draconic chronicler

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AmazingAtheist
I really, really hope to wrap it up over Christmas, but new material is still surfacing. I am glad I didn't publish it prematurely, though I know many people are annoyed it is taking so long. But it will be a better product because of the wait.

I can't wait :D

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zandore

I really, really hope to wrap it up over Christmas, but new material is still surfacing. I am glad I didn't publish it prematurely, though I know many people are annoyed it is taking so long. But it will be a better product because of the wait.

I can't wait :D

I gave up after the first year of waiting for it.....

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draconic chronicler
I can't wait :D

I gave up after the first year of waiting for it.....

It will be well worth the wait. These continued discussions have helped bring up much additional material that would have otherwised been left out if I had published it prematurely. DC

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tipsy_munchkin

it is an extremely intresting theory though i can't help but feel some of your evidence is seen by you simply because you are looking for it. With the myriad of ways much mythology can be interpreted it is easy to see a pattern if you are actively looking for it. You cannot confront alternative translations and interpretations by simply stating they are a cover up or you are bordering on the conspracy thorist logic. For you a lot hinges on the bible having been altered and parts left out but this in itself proves nothing conclusive. Many of the texts left out are believed by scholars to have been omitted due to the fact that they were known to have been written at a later date than the selected texts. Many gnostic texts were written at the time that this selection was made and were not seen in any was as ancient or significant. My point being that what is most ancient is an area of dispute or that just because something was excluded form the bible that it was therefore a cover up of the facts. You also cannot state conclusively that information has been covered up in order to eliminate this dragon character. I agree that older legends have over time combined and een altered to fit new ideas and cultures. It is entirely possible a serpent god of some description has been incorporated into the legends that formed the ot but that does not make that figure a literal one. You can quote the bible as much as you like but it does not ever make it literal proof, by that logic are we to say unicorns are also real as i believe they are mentioned?

As someone stated earlier you claim these texts are altered yet use quote from them and state they are describing facts. How do you decide which information you take as a literal description?

Having said that the idea is fascinating and shows a very enquiring mind if not perhaps a fertile imagination. It has more grounding than many of the crazy ideas that you hearbut also draws some very dramatic conclusions without sufficent evidence for them.

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greggK

FIERY is the key. Yahweh was a volcano. Jehovah is the God of Israel.

Aaron supervised and supplied the metal for the golden calf that the Israelites worshipped and that made Jehovah mad.

That was adultery. That is why the law, 'Do not commit adultery' was brought in by Jehovah.

Men and women go about their lives every day wearing the golden calf in their watches, rings, earrings, ankle bracelets, etc.

Why don't y'all belive the bible?

Edited by greggK

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