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draconic chronicler

Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?

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Lt_Ripley
Heavenly Father, and our Mother , The Holy spirit (God), are spirit, of which all Mater is created.

Father can manifest any form He wishes (Perks of being a creator), This is why we are told not to atribute any shape to The one who created us. Father may look lik a Moses figure to one, and A dragon to another. I have seen God as many things including but not limited to human shapes.

God slows Spirits vibration down, in order to manifest on this plane of existance.

Love Omnaka

actually that's a wise point to concider. 'father' may look like 'mother' and vice versa - It would be foolish for a spirit of have a gender. limiting. it's energy.

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Omnaka
actually that's a wise point to concider. 'father' may look like 'mother' and vice versa - It would be foolish for a spirit of have a gender. limiting. it's energy.

I have seen Father and Mother as one. They together make one God. when you do see a dragon, look at the eyes , this will tell you if it is a good or bad dragon.

Father and mother can manifest as anything they wish and or what we wish, so yes , you are correct it tries to limit spirit, which is infinate and unlimitable.

There is a Game we play in Heaven, called hush the Dragon, A party favorite.

Mother just says get out of here you pesky dragon. and it scampers away.

Love Omnaka

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draconic chronicler
I have seen Father and Mother as one. They together make one God. when you do see a dragon, look at the eyes , this will tell you if it is a good or bad dragon.

Father and mother can manifest as anything they wish and or what we wish, so yes , you are correct it tries to limit spirit, which is infinate and unlimitable.

There is a Game we play in Heaven, called hush the Dragon, A party favorite.

Mother just says get out of here you pesky dragon. and it scampers away.

Love Omnaka

Well, I have to admit that is an novel and interesting concept. Ancient Jewish and Christians scriptures DO speak of the heavenly dragons who consume the souls "Of those who spend their lives wickedly", but this is the first time I heard of them being addressed like "pesky" pets to be "shooed" when getting in the way at heavenly garden parties!

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drakonwick

Nothing is "lock-tight provable," _all_ is _speculation_ for scholars. I understand that Yahweh is an almagam of MANY gods and goddesses, Mesopotamian, Hittite, Syrian, Phoenician, Egyptian, and Canaanite. I feel it is a useless methodology to "nit-pick" and stress "the differences" and IGNORE the similarities shared by the various dieties. For me the Hebrews are _not_ attempting to preserve ALL the characteristics of any given god or goddess, they omit what they have no interest in to build their case for there being only one God. So I accept in essence many gods and goddesses as being amalgamated into Yahweh and I DO NOT WORRY about "the inconsistencies" which some scholars view as "cancelling-out" identifications. Gods fused into Yahweh's persona are the Sumerian Enki (Akkadian/Babylonian Ea), Enlil (Ellil), An (Anu), Utu (Shamash), _and_ the Egyptian Hyksos' god Baal Saphon (Baal Hadad) as well as Seth (Seth/Set being assimilated to Baal Saphon) and Sopdu of Egypt, said Egyptian gods surfacing in altered form in the Exodus traditions.

This new myth making process is a conscious, reflected application of older myths and mythic elements to new situations...In so far as one admits the presence of myth in ancient Babylonian and Canaanite culture, then one must also admit the presence of myth in the Bible...This book, then, is a series of case studies of myth making in ancient Israel, or to be more exact, in the biblical tradition.

Edited by Tom R

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Lt_Ripley
This new myth making process is a conscious, reflected application of older myths and mythic elements to new situations...In so far as one admits the presence of myth in ancient Babylonian and Canaanite culture, then one must also admit the presence of myth in the Bible...This book, then, is a series of case studies of myth making in ancient Israel, or to be more exact, in the biblical tradition.

yes.. and as time goes on it will fall the way as other myths to be replaced by others.

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The Gremlin
This new myth making process is a conscious, reflected application of older myths and mythic elements to new situations...In so far as one admits the presence of myth in ancient Babylonian and Canaanite culture, then one must also admit the presence of myth in the Bible...This book, then, is a series of case studies of myth making in ancient Israel, or to be more exact, in the biblical tradition.

ive made the point that dc is mythmaking a number of times; intrestingly he has brought the myth spark upto date with his dragons having the ability of interdimensional travel. According to him the tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who 'disappear' each year world-wide can account for their continued presence (ofcourse there is a big 'hush-up' over that one) they also are said to have been instrumental in the defeat of the Armarda that attacked Elizabethan Britain (although possibly limited to weather forcasting), and again they helped the brits against the german U boats in the last century...we clearly owe them a debt of gratitude. They seem to hate germans, (though this may reflect DC's own prejudice) and used to wing their way from the more civilised middle east for a snack on virgin, cattle, or nuckleheaded would be dragon slayer.

staying with the dragon-slayer theme, Enki (who DC identifies as the dragon origin of both satan and jehovah) was the hero of the earliest dragon slaying story.....where he killed Kur and later inherited his kingdom and some of his significance. no doubt DC will find some way to dismiss this tale as bogus, mistaken or somehow inadmissable to the argument. perhaps by suggesting that kur was not a dragon but a (ushumgal) Great Serpent.

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Archosaur
ive made the point that dc is mythmaking a number of times; intrestingly he has brought the myth spark upto date with his dragons having the ability of interdimensional travel. According to him the tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who 'disappear' each year world-wide can account for their continued presence (ofcourse there is a big 'hush-up' over that one) they also are said to have been instrumental in the defeat of the Armarda that attacked Elizabethan Britain (although possibly limited to weather forcasting), and again they helped the brits against the german U boats in the last century...we clearly owe them a debt of gratitude. They seem to hate germans, (though this may reflect DC's own prejudice) and used to wing their way from the more civilised middle east for a snack on virgin, cattle, or nuckleheaded would be dragon slayer.

staying with the dragon-slayer theme, Enki (who DC identifies as the dragon origin of both satan and jehovah) was the hero of the earliest dragon slaying story.....where he killed Kur and later inherited his kingdom and some of his significance. no doubt DC will find some way to dismiss this tale as bogus, mistaken or somehow inadmissable to the argument. perhaps by suggesting that kur was not a dragon but a (ushumgal) Great Serpent.

Surly if anyone could have enraged a whole different intellignet species, it would have been the Nazies. They had a talent for it...

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The Gremlin
Surly if anyone could have enraged a whole different intellignet species, it would have been the Nazies. They had a talent for it...

It seems not to be their politics but their ethnicity and 'character' thats the problem...though i grant you the Nazis of the 1930's and 40's were a little tiresome.

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draconic chronicler
ive made the point that dc is mythmaking a number of times; intrestingly he has brought the myth spark upto date with his dragons having the ability of interdimensional travel. According to him the tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who 'disappear' each year world-wide can account for their continued presence (ofcourse there is a big 'hush-up' over that one) they also are said to have been instrumental in the defeat of the Armarda that attacked Elizabethan Britain (although possibly limited to weather forcasting), and again they helped the brits against the german U boats in the last century...we clearly owe them a debt of gratitude. They seem to hate germans, (though this may reflect DC's own prejudice) and used to wing their way from the more civilised middle east for a snack on virgin, cattle, or nuckleheaded would be dragon slayer.

staying with the dragon-slayer theme, Enki (who DC identifies as the dragon origin of both satan and jehovah) was the hero of the earliest dragon slaying story.....where he killed Kur and later inherited his kingdom and some of his significance. no doubt DC will find some way to dismiss this tale as bogus, mistaken or somehow inadmissable to the argument. perhaps by suggesting that kur was not a dragon but a (ushumgal) Great Serpent.

If you knew more about this Grem, you wouldn't even have to make your speculations. Enki is described in his Hymns as a "great dragon of heaven", and even in the Babylonian times his physcial descripton is a sharp toothed, scaly reptile. I have provided proof in the ancient hymns. Ancient humans apparently believed the dragons could assume less fearsome human forms as well as we see these Gods in human forms too, though common sense would dictate they would be dragons while fighiting other dragons, though tiamat eems to be more of a serpent. Marduk was the son of Enki, so logically a dragon as well. The dragon seen at his side in most of his depiction may be there to indicate his other form. Zeus could change to a Drakon at will as well, and apparently enjoyed raping human women in this form.

As far as dragons hating Germans, or vice versa, this is based on their surviving legends. They are definately far less "dragon friendly" than the beliefs of the more civilized nations of the time. It is a fact. For all we know, dragons could have ravaged them for centuries and we would never know becasue the people were illiterate for most of this time.

Like it or not, the German barbarians were wanton destroyers of civilization. And contrary to Tolkien, and the latest Beowulf cartoon, they lived in hovels of twigs and cowdung, not huge stone buildings. They were far too lazy and perpetually drunk to make such edifices. I think the most stones in barbarian German arhitecture that archaeology has ever detected is a fire hearth of stacked stones. That's it.

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The Gremlin
Enki is described in his Hymns as a "great dragon of heaven", and even in the Babylonian times his physcial descripton is a sharp toothed, scaly reptile.
Actually amongst many many other things, in that hymn he is called Ushumgal (something you seemed determined to misspell for 14or so pages of another thread.) which means Great Serpent.

you cant go by a babylonian physical description of a sumerian deity...its more inapropriate than using islam to describe the christian jesus.

hehe thought you would cop out with the Tiamat and kur were just big snakes thing. I dont think you understand the connections between kur, enki, marduk and tiamat at all....besides which in each of the two dragon-slaying stories, both marduk and enki are humanoid in form for the showdown Marduk has a handheld weapon and if all of the motifs are consistent, so did Enki. (no doubt you would presume that they chose that form for that encounter lol surely a dragon one would have been more appropriate for the occasion given your appreciation of the physical imbalance of the match).

zeus enjoyed ravishing women in a number of forms, bull, swan, serpent. only in the late alexander romances (which are fantastical), and early medieval depictions of the romantic scene, does he apear as a winged dragon...but then your preconceptions demand you eclipse everything about zeus to try to suggest that a dragon was his 'true' form or 'preferred' form.

As far as dragons hating Germans, or vice versa, this is based on their surviving legends. They are definately far less "dragon friendly" than the beliefs of the more civilized nations of the time. It is a fact. For all we know, dragons could have ravaged them for centuries and we would never know becasue the people were illiterate for most of this time.

Like it or not, the German barbarians were wanton destroyers of civilization. And contrary to Tolkien, and the latest Beowulf cartoon, they lived in hovels of twigs and cowdung, not huge stone buildings. They were far too lazy and perpetually drunk to make such edifices. I think the most stones in barbarian German arhitecture that archaeology has ever detected is a fire hearth of stacked stones. That's it.

your prejudice against germans is well known...and well demonstrated.

its a shame that dragons like enki and the germans didnt get along, being almost perpetually drunk enki might have found them more fun...but then the sumerians were also known to like their beer...lots.

finally, you say that the dragons preferred the more civilized middle eastern peoples and the chinese to the uncouth westerners...or is it just germans? but you also say that the dragons brought civilisation...why would they be biased against people they had not yet civilised? did they behave as abominably to the sumerians and chinese before said peoples were taught to use a plow? or did the germans drink all of their beer?....it would tick me off.

Edited by lil gremlin

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Omnaka

Every one of God's sons has a dragon which needs to be tamed, Mine has blue eyes.

Love Omnaka

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Nik Xues

dude if is point is right does that mean the horrors of the dark ages may have been caused by slaying dragons therefore GOD SUPREME angered that we killed our "caratakers" left us to devour ourselfs with war and greed

man thats like fighting the baby sitter and then being tossed on the streets to SMARTEN US UP

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Nik Xues

hey come to think

KING ARTHUR brought unification to his people and upon his standard the pen dragon flew

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Archosaur
hey come to think

KING ARTHUR brought unification to his people and upon his standard the pen dragon flew

Yes Aurthur did use the dragon as his symbol. The Red Dragon (representing the Britons) and the White dragon (representing the Saxons) appeared in a vision to merlin. Weather Arthur took the standard of the Pendragon from that, from the Roman Drakon standard, or some other reason is unknown. Much of the tales and legends of Arthur and Merlin are also replete with references to dragons. Even today, some of these symbols remain in Britain.

If you want to dig into this, why not open up an Arthurian dragon thread?

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Nik Xues

i am reading "the secret teachings of all ages"

in it they explain dragon symbolism is in almost every culture [its almost as bad as the pre jesus sacrifices]

hey fire=dragons fire used to represent god [the sun] but then flipped in europe like dragons

guess whixh culture had the most influence in europe

germanics.

whose influence hitler revealed to fire up his aryan brothers for war

what if they were deceived [by Enki] a long time ago triggering a harsh conflict

Edited by Nik Xues

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draconic chronicler
dude if is point is right does that mean the horrors of the dark ages may have been caused by slaying dragons therefore GOD SUPREME angered that we killed our "caratakers" left us to devour ourselfs with war and greed

man thats like fighting the baby sitter and then being tossed on the streets to SMARTEN US UP

There is no evidence anyone killed a dragon in the dark ages, save for the tall tales of drunken germans. The notion is totally absurd. But ther may indeeed be a reaon they concocted such stories. Perhaps the dragons were allowed to hunt the ancient Germans since they were of no use to anybody, and accomplished nothing at all for thousands of years save for drinking, and brawling (and dreaming up ridiculous tall tales to p*** off the dragons even more.)

Only the advanced, CIVILIZED nations had dragon gods to teach them to be civilized. They went to Germany to devour mead halles full of helplessly drunk . virtual "cavemen" that mattered to no one, and let the superstitious survivors believe a deformed human they called a "troll" was responsible.

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draconic chronicler
Yes Aurthur did use the dragon as his symbol. The Red Dragon (representing the Britons) and the White dragon (representing the Saxons) appeared in a vision to merlin. Weather Arthur took the standard of the Pendragon from that, from the Roman Drakon standard, or some other reason is unknown. Much of the tales and legends of Arthur and Merlin are also replete with references to dragons. Even today, some of these symbols remain in Britain.

If you want to dig into this, why not open up an Arthurian dragon thread?

I was under the impression the dragon battle was not a vision, but an event witnessed by many people. This is an important event in my book, concerning two important dragons involved in a non-lethal contest to decided whether the Romano British or Germanics should control Britain, something that would have important reprecussions much later on.

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drakonwick
There is no evidence anyone killed a dragon in the dark ages, save for the tall tales of drunken germans. The notion is totally absurd. But ther may indeeed be a reaon they concocted such stories. Perhaps the dragons were allowed to hunt the ancient Germans since they were of no use to anybody, and accomplished nothing at all for thousands of years save for drinking, and brawling (and dreaming up ridiculous tall tales to p*** off the dragons even more.)

Only the advanced, CIVILIZED nations had dragon gods to teach them to be civilized. They went to Germany to devour mead halles full of helplessly drunk . virtual "cavemen" that mattered to no one, and let the superstitious survivors believe a deformed human they called a "troll" was responsible.

So, are you trying to tell us that myths from sumerian tablets and cylinder seals, are better than tall tales from drunken germans?

In combing the surviving Sumerian literature for a starting point, we

examined the "Hymn to Ninkasi." This document, which dates to about

1800 B.C., sings the praises of the Sumerian goddess of brewing. The

text, known from tablets found at Nippur, Suppar, and Larsa, had been

translated by Miguel Civil of the Oriental Institute of the University

of Chicago in 1964. Coded within the Hymn is an ancient recipe for

beer. We would return to the Hymn time and again before attempting to

brew the Ancient recipe. On several occasions we met with Civil to

discuss parts of the text that were vague or ambiguous. In responding

to our questions Civil was led to refine his translation of certain

Sumerian words such as honey and wine. His revised translation of the

hymn, presented here for the first time, allowed us to successsfully

re-create the Sumerian beer.

Link- Sumerian Beer

So, how is you're example that no dragons were killed in the dark ages any better than any other ancient cuneiform stating as such?

Regards,

Tom

Edited by Tom R

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Nik Xues

dragons or dragon gods

must exist[ed] in some form because any developed [stone age] culture beleived in dragons

whether history has changed the form from whatever to super predators

besides lookat santa he was once cronos and ate babies so[its true]

to assume we have no dragons because there are no bones just stories

is well closed minded

instead ask what do they mean when they said dragon

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drakonwick

"And there was strife in the heaven; [one] who is like El and his messengers fought against the serpent beast and the serpent beast and his messengers fought and were not strong enough, neither was a place found of them any longer in the heaven. And the great serpent beast was cast - the old snake, (the one being called accuser and adversary), the one deceiving the habitable whole, was cast into the earth, and his messengers, were cast with him."

1). The book of Revelation, from which the idea is developed, does not support the theory that any celestial messengers were cast out of heaven, that is, the abode or dwelling place of the Supreme Creator Yahweh. John was told when he was given the Revelation, that all of it was a Revelation of "things which must shortly come to pass," Rev.1: 1; beginning at about AD 67, which is the approximate time the book was written. To use this passage to prove an imaginary event, or a proof for a prophecy of something that was supposed to have happened sometime before creation, cannot be supported, must fail.

The identity of this "dragon" which is reference to a mystical, allegorical, snake like beast, (or a reference to a corrupted religious system that was "looked upon") as is suggested by the etymology of the Greek word "dragon," is revealed in Rev. 12:10. The dragon or "serpent beast" is defined as the "accuser of our Brethren." The "accuser" of "our brethren" during the time which John was writing Revelation, was non other the Edomite Priesthood, together with the Scribes and Pharisees, called snakes by Yahshua, (Matt. 23: 33). This corrupted Religious System, supported by the Roman occupation, had infiltrated, corrupted, and usurped the Lawful Yahudi Religious authority, and was using the pagan Roman occupation of Jerusalem, to condemned thousands of believers in Yahshua Messiah to death. Verses 7-9 simply reveal to us, that the "power" of this evil paganism, using the diabolical ferocity of the Roman system to kill True Believers, was eventually replaced by Religion of Christianity, which took full root after 70 AD, though imperfect as it has become. The terrestrial messengers following the "michael" overcame the "Dragon" not by arrows, bullets, or military might, but "...by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Rev. 12: 11. This struggle was one for power and for control of the Religious authority, the high or upper (heavenly) realm. The old Yahudim sacrificial system was in the process of becoming replaced by the new covenant through Messiah, Heb. 8: 13. The false leaders of the passing system were struggling for their very survival. The ultimate result - TRUTH in Yahshua, will eventually always prevail! The early followers of Messiah, the first fruits, overcame the "Dragon" (the snake beast) which was the corrupted Religious system. This victory came at great personal loss, the lives, of many of the early believers in Yahshua. However, because of their faithfulness, the corrupted "high authority" (heaven), that which was "looked on" came crashing down to earth..."was cast down to earth," (stripped from their high place of authority "...neither was a place found of them any longer in the heaven. " Rev. 12: 8.

It seems obvious to me that these passages were nothing more than a metaphor! People could only write in a way that best fit how they seen things in those times.

Edited by Tom R

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draconic chronicler
Actually amongst many many other things, in that hymn he is called Ushumgal (something you seemed determined to misspell for 14or so pages of another thread.) which means Great Serpent.

you cant go by a babylonian physical description of a sumerian deity...its more inapropriate than using islam to describe the christian jesus.

hehe thought you would cop out with the Tiamat and kur were just big snakes thing. I dont think you understand the connections between kur, enki, marduk and tiamat at all....besides which in each of the two dragon-slaying stories, both marduk and enki are humanoid in form for the showdown Marduk has a handheld weapon and if all of the motifs are consistent, so did Enki. (no doubt you would presume that they chose that form for that encounter lol surely a dragon one would have been more appropriate for the occasion given your appreciation of the physical imbalance of the match).

zeus enjoyed ravishing women in a number of forms, bull, swan, serpent. only in the late alexander romances (which are fantastical), and early medieval depictions of the romantic scene, does he apear as a winged dragon...but then your preconceptions demand you eclipse everything about zeus to try to suggest that a dragon was his 'true' form or 'preferred' form.

your prejudice against germans is well known...and well demonstrated.

its a shame that dragons like enki and the germans didnt get along, being almost perpetually drunk enki might have found them more fun...but then the sumerians were also known to like their beer...lots.

finally, you say that the dragons preferred the more civilized middle eastern peoples and the chinese to the uncouth westerners...or is it just germans? but you also say that the dragons brought civilisation...why would they be biased against people they had not yet civilised? did they behave as abominably to the sumerians and chinese before said peoples were taught to use a plow? or did the germans drink all of their beer?....it would tick me off.

Not true. I am largely of German ancestry myself, but being a historian I am not going to "sugar-coat" them. Nothing I have ever said here regarding German barbarism was untrue, though the relationship between dragons and Germans must remain speculative.

As for marduk and enki, they were clearly "humanized" after they left the company of their humans, just as Yahweh. Marduk may have simply been the first Human King after the dragons left, and claimed he was a dragons offspring, just as the legedary "first emperor of China". Tiamat then, never existed, and this story is merely a human plagiarism of the old territorial battle between Kur/Abzu and Enki.

Zeus may have originally been a real dragon, becasue of the dragon connections as well, but as humans became for confident, they wished to "forget" their original gods were dragons, and the dragons become servants of enemies to the new humans gods.

What impressed the humans to write of these battles was probably first hand observation of territorial battles of the dragons, which were undoubtedly bloodless affairs, but then any dragon slaying legend involving an actual dragon was probably based on a dragon simply leaving an area and a clever human announcing he had "driven it off in a battle". Over the years, these stories would evolve into the claim the dragon was actually killed, since enough time has passed that people had "forgotten" where the dragon remains would be found as proof.

We know that the Germans were no more ignorant than other cultures, they simply had no dragons to help them so they remained "virtual cavemen" for thousands of years contributing nothing to mankind save for their eventual destruction of western civilization, which can mostly be attributed to the stupidity of the Romans, and possibly because the dragons were no longer to prey on the Germans once they became Christians, for history shows that in the past, they bred like rabbits, and then launched Lemming-like expeditions such as the Cimbri and Teutonic invasions of Southern Europe. The reason why the great early cultures originated in warm climates may have been becasue their dragon "gods" preferred warm places better, logcial, considering they are reptiles. But with the barbarian legends of "evil" dragons, we may suppose they traveled to barbarian lands to hunt, where their predations would have little noticeable effect.

The legends do speak of dragons craving alcoholic beverages. Perhaps this is due to there being only water before the coming of humans. We have Chinese accounts of dragons "working for wine", and Enki continues to demand "liquor" in the Bible under His name of Yahweh. So how could dragons resist Germans, probably the biggest and fattest humans in the ancient world due to their rich dairy based diets. And probably so helpless as well (despite their ridulous brags as dragonslayers), as we see from primary sources such as Beowulf, where dragons can claw through the Germans' flimsy wattle and dung meadehalls to prey on dozens of helplessly drunk men, who dragons might have been regarded as a delicacy like expensive, much like similarly alcohol-filled chocolate candies would be to us.

But in the final analysis whether you attribute it to dragon assistance (as the legends clearly state), or not, the alcoholic Sumerians built great cities, libraries full of literature and beutiful objects , etc, whereas the alcoholic Germans built dung hovels instead of great cities, and their crude, barbaric art (aside from slave made objects) look like things made in a kindergarten. Archaeology supports all of this, save for the actual existence of the dragons, though BOTH cultures (in fact all cultures), acknowledged their existence.

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draconic chronicler
"And there was strife in the heaven; [one] who is like El and his messengers fought against the serpent beast and the serpent beast and his messengers fought and were not strong enough, neither was a place found of them any longer in the heaven. And the great serpent beast was cast - the old snake, (the one being called accuser and adversary), the one deceiving the habitable whole, was cast into the earth, and his messengers, were cast with him."

1). The book of Revelation, from which the idea is developed, does not support the theory that any celestial messengers were cast out of heaven, that is, the abode or dwelling place of the Supreme Creator Yahweh. John was told when he was given the Revelation, that all of it was a Revelation of "things which must shortly come to pass," Rev.1: 1; beginning at about AD 67, which is the approximate time the book was written. To use this passage to prove an imaginary event, or a proof for a prophecy of something that was supposed to have happened sometime before creation, cannot be supported, must fail.

The identity of this "dragon" which is reference to a mystical, allegorical, snake like beast, (or a reference to a corrupted religious system that was "looked upon") as is suggested by the etymology of the Greek word "dragon," is revealed in Rev. 12:10. The dragon or "serpent beast" is defined as the "accuser of our Brethren." The "accuser" of "our brethren" during the time which John was writing Revelation, was non other the Edomite Priesthood, together with the Scribes and Pharisees, called snakes by Yahshua, (Matt. 23: 33). This corrupted Religious System, supported by the Roman occupation, had infiltrated, corrupted, and usurped the Lawful Yahudi Religious authority, and was using the pagan Roman occupation of Jerusalem, to condemned thousands of believers in Yahshua Messiah to death. Verses 7-9 simply reveal to us, that the "power" of this evil paganism, using the diabolical ferocity of the Roman system to kill True Believers, was eventually replaced by Religion of Christianity, which took full root after 70 AD, though imperfect as it has become. The terrestrial messengers following the "michael" overcame the "Dragon" not by arrows, bullets, or military might, but "...by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Rev. 12: 11. This struggle was one for power and for control of the Religious authority, the high or upper (heavenly) realm. The old Yahudim sacrificial system was in the process of becoming replaced by the new covenant through Messiah, Heb. 8: 13. The false leaders of the passing system were struggling for their very survival. The ultimate result - TRUTH in Yahshua, will eventually always prevail! The early followers of Messiah, the first fruits, overcame the "Dragon" (the snake beast) which was the corrupted Religious system. This victory came at great personal loss, the lives, of many of the early believers in Yahshua. However, because of their faithfulness, the corrupted "high authority" (heaven), that which was "looked on" came crashing down to earth..."was cast down to earth," (stripped from their high place of authority "...neither was a place found of them any longer in the heaven. " Rev. 12: 8.

It seems obvious to me that these passages were nothing more than a metaphor! People could only write in a way that best fit how they seen things in those times.

I agree that the Revelation dragon is a metaphor. The seven heads are thought by some scholars to symbolize the seven hills of Rome. I also agree this prohecy ws inctnded for the time the Apostles actually lived. It actually says so, but most Christians overlook this. But the "real" bible is filled with evidence that Yahweh, and the Seraphim, as well as the Bene Elohim of the other human tribes were assistants to the creator El of both Canaanite legend and the Bible are the same "great dragons of Heaven" that the Sumerians worshipped. Enki performs the identical feats in Sumerian lore as he does in Genesis. Yahweh even uses his flying serpent relatives to subjugate the hebrews, and orders Moses to make his winged serpent idol, which was worshipped throughout the "glory days" of the Hebrews. We KNOW the ancient Jews regarded the Seraphim as dragons based on ancient Papyri that translated hebrew into Greek, and both Christians and Jews alike used books like Apoc of Baruch and Enoch, which acknowledged dragons in heaven that worked for God, just as the sumerian dragon gods were subservient to the creator Anu.

Jesus, called the pharisees vipers, dangerous natural creatures that strike without warning, but He also told his disciples to be Wise as Serpents" probably referring to the heavenly "Drakons" we see in early Christianity before corrupted by Germanic control of the Roman Church. Indeed, a large portion of early Cristians identified Jesus as the "wise serpent-dragon" of Eden, probably becasue of Jesus' own words.

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draconic chronicler
So, are you trying to tell us that myths from sumerian tablets and cylinder seals, are better than tall tales from drunken germans?

In combing the surviving Sumerian literature for a starting point, we

examined the "Hymn to Ninkasi." This document, which dates to about

1800 B.C., sings the praises of the Sumerian goddess of brewing. The

text, known from tablets found at Nippur, Suppar, and Larsa, had been

translated by Miguel Civil of the Oriental Institute of the University

of Chicago in 1964. Coded within the Hymn is an ancient recipe for

beer. We would return to the Hymn time and again before attempting to

brew the Ancient recipe. On several occasions we met with Civil to

discuss parts of the text that were vague or ambiguous. In responding

to our questions Civil was led to refine his translation of certain

Sumerian words such as honey and wine. His revised translation of the

hymn, presented here for the first time, allowed us to successsfully

re-create the Sumerian beer.

Link- Sumerian Beer

So, how is you're example that no dragons were killed in the dark ages any better than any other ancient cuneiform stating as such?

Regards,

Tom

I am not sure of the point you are tryig to make. The Sumerian "dragon slaying" legends are clearly based on the humanization of the victors in much earlier accounts of quarreling dragons, that were probably territorial disputes when the Bene Elohim apportioned the humans among themselves. This should be obvious, as Enki is proclaimed in ancient hymns as "The great dragon who stands in Eridu", and Marduk is his son, who if real had to be a dragon as well, though like Enki, would have later been humanized, just as the canaanit dragon Yaw, would eventually become a long bearded humanoid God Jehova.

But there is no question dragons craved the acoholic beverages of humans. We see this in the legends of nearly every human culture. The legends speak of Enki's drunkeness, and renamed Yahweh, he still asks for "Liquor" to "wash down" the first born children, lambs and calves he demanded from the hebrews as their protector.

The German legends though are totally asinine, in that they suppose mere human heroes can kill these enormous, intelligent heavenly creatures. Even if the dragons were merely large predatory dinosaurs, humans with only iron age weapons could not hurt them. But this is impossible, for if mortal creatures, we wold find thier bones. The bible says as much regarding the leviathan, that no weapon of iron or bronze could hurt it. People who imagine dragon slaying tales to be true, with a dragon larger than goat, simply have no concept of the real capabilities of humans or large, armored predatory animals. Christians who believe dinosuars lived passed the Creataceous simply do not understand that the dragons in the Bible, including Yahweh, Himself are heavenly creatures. If large predatory dinosaurss actually lived in the time of men, there would be no men. It would be "no contest". And this is why virtually EVERY ancient legend describes dragons as intelligent creatures, including the Bible, NOT walnut brained dinosaurs. Yes the legends state some preyed on men, even the dragon gods like Yahweh, but this was the controlled predation of intelligent creatures. T-rexes would have simply killed all the humans, when they were still much more primitive.

But the (lack of) archaological evidence as well as simple common sense dictates humans never killed dragons, and the world-wide sea serpent/lake monster/thunderbird/pterosaur/dinosaur "sightings", suggest they are stil among us, but being intelligent creatures, have no difficulty in avoiding us.

Edited by draconic chronicler

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Nik Xues

actually they may be mortal

but the fact is what does the dragon really look like

myths also state that gods can "shape shift"

mixed with this fact the dragon itself may be a simple guise

meaning their true form may be different yet

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draconic chronicler
actually they may be mortal

but the fact is what does the dragon really look like

myths also state that gods can "shape shift"

mixed with this fact the dragon itself may be a simple guise

meaning their true form may be different yet

Yes, that was believed, but I think our ancestors simply "wished" to imagine the dragons they worshipped was only an "aspect" of humanoid form Gods they felt more comfortable with.

But I think this is a mistake. Dragons seem to be too much like dinosaurs for this to b a coincidence. What weems more probable, and an idea most compatible with world wide legends, is that the dragons were some kind of prehistoric animal that was "modified" by some unknown intellgence to protect and guide early man. Nothing about this need be "magical" like shape shifting humans. It is possible though that creatures that have been intelligent for millions of years may have considerable psychic ability, even to the point of influencing the minds of humans.

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