The Demonstration

[dcman]

By Clark C. McClelland, former ScO, Space Shuttle Fleet, Kennedy Space Center, Florida (1958-1992)

NOVEMBER 19, 1996

Space Shuttle Columbia during STS-80 took a crew of five astronauts into a 17 day, 15 hour and 54 minute mission around the earth, the longest flight in the history of this vehicle. During this lengthy flight a very strange event occurred that even had crewman Dr. Story Musgrave unable to explain what he observed from the shuttle windows.

A large disc shaped object appeared below the Columbia. The shuttle was approximately, 190 Nautical miles high.

The disc was first observed to miraculously appear from out of nowhere, flying through the clouds below and progressing from right to left as the astronauts stared in utter amazement. The outer rim of the craft appeared to be rotating counterclockwise. It was very large (compared to common space junk and breakaway ice), approximately 50 to 150 feet in diameter.

Astronaut Dr. Story Musgrave, a Payload Specialist on the STS-80 Mission, was interviewed following the flight. As he viewed a videotape of the incident which showed lightning flashes in the atmosphere, the city lights of Denver, Colorado and other earthbound sights, he stated: "I don't know what it is. Whether it's a washer, debris, ice particles, I don't know. But it's characteristic of the thousands of things which I've seen. What is not so characteristic is it appears to come from no where. You would think that if it's facing the dark side or facing a side towards you which is not reflecting the sun, you would think that you would see something there. It's really impressive."

During an earlier interview, Dr. Musgrave stated he attempted to communicate with ET lifeforms during each of his six missions. He actually asked them to take him with them. Now that's an astronaut with a lot of courage. Dr. Musgrave retired after this flight from NASA. Since then he's been spreading his considered opinion that alien life exists. When Musgrave speaks of this, it's no great leap for one to assume he's admitting knowledge of alien life. As the final slide of a "Grey" ET was shown during a recent astronomy presentation by Dr. Musgrave, he made this surprising comment: "These guys are real... I guarantee it!" Dr. Musgrave does know the truth. This author guarantees it!

Consider that carefully. These are world renown scientists making statements almost beyond belief. Dr. von Braun and others of his stature have the courage to disclose "sensitive" information, but obviously the leaders of the USA and the world do not. If billions could find a way of coping with the overwhelming threat of atomic annihilation for half a century, it is reasonable to assume we can cope with the knowledge of these "Other Intelligence's" from the stars. We can cope with the fact they are visiting earth, and have been since the beginning of history. We must. Those still asleep must open their eyes. We Are Not Alone.

http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/case_th...onstration.html

[skyeagle409]

By Clark C. McClelland, former ScO, Space Shuttle Fleet, Kennedy Space Center, Florida (1958-1992)

NOVEMBER 19, 1996

Space Shuttle Columbia during STS-80 took a crew of five astronauts into a 17 day, 15 hour and 54 minute mission around the earth, the longest flight in the history of this vehicle. During this lengthy flight a very strange event occurred that even had crewman Dr. Story Musgrave unable to explain what he observed from the shuttle windows.

A large disc shaped object appeared below the Columbia. The shuttle was approximately, 190 Nautical miles high.

The disc was first observed to miraculously appear from out of nowhere, flying through the clouds below and progressing from right to left as the astronauts stared in utter amazement. The outer rim of the craft appeared to be rotating counterclockwise. It was very large (compared to common space junk and breakaway ice), approximately 50 to 150 feet in diameter.

Astronaut Dr. Story Musgrave, a Payload Specialist on the STS-80 Mission, was interviewed following the flight. As he viewed a videotape of the incident which showed lightning flashes in the atmosphere, the city lights of Denver, Colorado and other earthbound sights, he stated: "I don't know what it is. Whether it's a washer, debris, ice particles, I don't know. But it's characteristic of the thousands of things which I've seen. What is not so characteristic is it appears to come from no where. You would think that if it's facing the dark side or facing a side towards you which is not reflecting the sun, you would think that you would see something there. It's really impressive."

During an earlier interview, Dr. Musgrave stated he attempted to communicate with ET lifeforms during each of his six missions. He actually asked them to take him with them. Now that's an astronaut with a lot of courage. Dr. Musgrave retired after this flight from NASA. Since then he's been spreading his considered opinion that alien life exists. When Musgrave speaks of this, it's no great leap for one to assume he's admitting knowledge of alien life. As the final slide of a "Grey" ET was shown during a recent astronomy presentation by Dr. Musgrave, he made this surprising comment: "These guys are real... I guarantee it!" Dr. Musgrave does know the truth. This author guarantees it!

Consider that carefully. These are world renown scientists making statements almost beyond belief. Dr. von Braun and others of his stature have the courage to disclose "sensitive" information, but obviously the leaders of the USA and the world do not. If billions could find a way of coping with the overwhelming threat of atomic annihilation for half a century, it is reasonable to assume we can cope with the knowledge of these "Other Intelligence's" from the stars. We can cope with the fact they are visiting earth, and have been since the beginning of history. We must. Those still asleep must open their eyes. We Are Not Alone.

http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/case_th...onstration.html

It is amazing what they have been saying over the years.

[JimOberg]

By Clark C. McClelland, former ScO, Space Shuttle Fleet, Kennedy Space Center, Florida (1958-1992)

NOVEMBER 19, 1996

Space Shuttle Columbia during STS-80 took a crew of five astronauts into a 17 day, 15 hour and 54 minute mission around the earth, the longest flight in the history of this vehicle. During this lengthy flight a very strange event occurred that even had crewman Dr. Story Musgrave unable to explain what he observed from the shuttle windows.

A large disc shaped object appeared below the Columbia. The shuttle was approximately, 190 Nautical miles high.

The disc was first observed to miraculously appear from out of nowhere, flying through the clouds below and progressing from right to left as the astronauts stared in utter amazement. The outer rim of the craft appeared to be rotating counterclockwise. It was very large (compared to common space junk and breakaway ice), approximately 50 to 150 feet in diameter.http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/case_th...onstration.html

Utter bilge. No astronaut watched that object out any window, during the flight, and none ever told Clark they had. He made that scene up to 'sexy up' the fantasy. The image is from a video feed from a camera in the shuttle's payload bay, being watched from the ground. As for things appearing suddenly in the center of a field of view, it happened often, especially as in this case when the camera was pointing back towards the dark earth and nearby shuttle dandruff drifted away, out of the shadow of the shuttle, and into the full sunlight that was streaming past it. Naturally these objects, suddenly sunlit, show up 'out of nowhere'. Would seeing other videos of the same thing happening be of any evidential value?

[JimOberg]

As for things appearing suddenly in the center of a field of view, it happened often, especially as in this case when the camera was pointing back towards the dark earth and nearby shuttle dandruff drifted away, out of the shadow of the shuttle, and into the full sunlight that was streaming past it. Naturally these objects, suddenly sunlit, show up 'out of nowhere'. Would seeing other videos of the same thing happening be of any evidential value?

Should I draw a picture? This is really an unusual feature of space videos and it is NOT what people would expect to happen, based on their earthside experiences. So it's easy to misinterpret what the raw images show. It's why I was so hard-nosed with Ed about 'day' and 'night' in his favorite space UFO videos, and why his disregard of that fundamental context was so dismaying.

[skyeagle409]

Should I draw a picture?

Looking at your past history of debunking, it wouldn't matter what you drew.

[JimOberg]

As for things appearing suddenly in the center of a field of view, it happened often, especially as in this case when the camera was pointing back towards the dark earth and nearby shuttle dandruff drifted away, out of the shadow of the shuttle, and into the full sunlight that was streaming past it. Naturally these objects, suddenly sunlit, show up 'out of nowhere'. Would seeing other videos of the same thing happening be of any evidential value?

Is there any dispute that this effect is at least physically possible? That is, that objects in the shuttle's shadow would be invisible to the TV when they were dark, but would suddenly become visible when they passed into sunlight? Is it clear what lighting effect I am describing here? Does anyone argue that this change in visibility due to non-sunlit to sunlit transition is somehow fictitious, or physically impossible?

[skyeagle409]

Is there any dispute that this effect is at least physically possible? That is, that objects in the shuttle's shadow would be invisible to the TV when they were dark, but would suddenly become visible when they passed into sunlight? Is it clear what lighting effect I am describing here? Does anyone argue that this change in visibility due to non-sunlit to sunlit transition is somehow fictitious, or physically impossible?

I wanted to bring out that there are cases where UFOs are maneuvering in space in the absence of any thruster firings.

[JimOberg]

I wanted to bring out that there are cases where UFOs are maneuvering in space in the absence of any thruster firings.

Another made-up 'factoid', with no evidence, from the MY-imagination-is-reality kid.

Any citation to actual investigation that established any such example, would be proper -- and a BIG surprise.

[skyeagle409]

Another made-up 'factoid', with no evidence, from the MY-imagination-is-reality kid.

You can't prove otherwise.

[dcman]

Another made-up 'factoid', with no evidence, from the MY-imagination-is-reality kid.

Any citation to actual investigation that established any such example, would be proper -- and a BIG surprise.

You still haven't explained this:

[JimOberg]

You still haven't explained this:

Doesn't that belong on the STS-75 thread? I'll be happy to discuss it there.

Here we are talking about McClelland's story of the STS-80 video, including his falsehood that the crew watched it realtime... Like, how would he know, if he wasn't in the super-top-double-secret control room he no longer had access to at the time of that flight?

And I was asking if folks were satisfied with a description of how dots could 'appear' suddenly in mid-screen due to coming out of the shuttle's shadow. Does anybody have any logical argument about how this can, or cannot, happen on a space mission? To understand what you are seeing in these videos, you have to understand the effect of day/night and shadows. And they have different visual effects than down here on Earth.

[dcman]

Doesn't that belong on the STS-75 thread? I'll be happy to discuss it there.

Here we are talking about McClelland's story of the STS-80 video, including his falsehood that the crew watched it realtime... Like, how would he know, if he wasn't in the super-top-double-secret control room he no longer had access to at the time of that flight?

And I was asking if folks were satisfied with a description of how dots could 'appear' suddenly in mid-screen due to coming out of the shuttle's shadow. Does anybody have any logical argument about how this can, or cannot, happen on a space mission? To understand what you are seeing in these videos, you have to understand the effect of day/night and shadows. And they have different visual effects than down here on Earth.

You still haven't explained this anomaly in this thread or in any other :

...and since I started this thread, I think I should have a say in the direction it takes. If you don't like it, don't reply, go some place else to post...but please do explain the UFO in that video.

[skyeagle409]

You still haven't explained this anomaly in this thread or in any other :

...and since I started this thread, I think I should have a say in the direction it takes. If you don't like it, don't reply, go some place else to post...but please do explain the UFO in that video.

I noticed one object makes a 90 degree heading change between timeframe "33" and "45."

[JimOberg]

You still haven't explained this anomaly in this thread or in any other :

...and since I started this thread, I think I should have a say in the direction it takes. If you don't like it, don't reply, go some place else to post...but please do explain the UFO in that video.

Well, to be fair, if you are making this a challenge, tell me some basics. When was it taken, so we can obtain high-quality copies and establish context? You are offering it as 'evidence' for something. You have the responsibility, then, for opening the process.

Like -- date and time, please. Names of witnesses. Simple stuff.

Secondly, tell me your criteria for 'explain' -- is it to just come up with a plausible prosaic scenario involving space video effects that you appear to be resolutely ignorant about, or is it to convice YOU there is a credible prosaic explanation? And if the latter, why can't you accept a similar prosaic explanation for the STS-48 zig-zag video, into which I've already invested hundreds of hours of quality investigation.

Because if you are already hair-trigger prepared to reject ANY 'explanation', why should I bother falling for the old, old "but-what-about-THIS-one" UFO buff's dodge?

[skyeagle409]

Because if you are already hair-trigger prepared to reject ANY 'explanation', why should I bother falling for the old, old "but-what-about-THIS-one" UFO buff's dodge?

It seems to me that when an object is placed into motion in space, it remains on a set course and velocity unless acted upon by gravity or contact with another object, etc. Now, what happens when an object makes a 90 degree heading change and reverse its course, in addition to slowing down and resuming speed wihtout any external interference?

Edited September 22, 2007 by skyeagle409

[JimOberg]

Now, what happens when an object makes a 90 degree heading change and reverse its course, in addition to slowing down and resuming speed wihtout any external interference?

And the evidence that there was no external interference is, exactly, what? If you can't even provide the date/time of the event, how can you know there weren't routine thruster firings going on at that point? If it is YOU claiming the motion is extraordinary, it is YOU who is responsible for eliminating the occurrence of 'ordinary' processes.

Also -- let's not forget this question: I was asking if folks were satisfied with a description of how dots could 'appear' suddenly in mid-screen due to coming out of the shuttle's shadow. Does anybody have any logical argument about how this can, or cannot, happen on a space mission? To understand what you are seeing in these videos, you have to understand the effect of day/night and shadows. And they have different visual effects than down here on Earth.

[JimOberg]

Now, what happens when an object makes a 90 degree heading change and reverse its course, ...

Oh, and let's not forget -- you have no evidence the object made such a large heading change. Your value given is assuming that the object's motion was all perpendicular to the camera's line-of-sight, so that the plane of the object's motion is being viewed from directly 'overhead'.

But you have forgotten -- or ignored the geometric consequences of -- the fact that space has three dimensions. An object moving mostly on a course towards/away from the camera can make a course change of 10 or 20 degrees, and the angle mapped onto the 2D TV FOV can look like 90 degrees or 140 degrees or even higher.

Try this at home with sketches on a piece of paper tilted with respect to your eyeball.

When you have satisfied yourself that your initial claims about the course change are not justified by the visual evidence, please modify your claim and submit it for further discussion.

I don't care HOW "sure" you are that your "facts" are accurate here. I suggest a rational assessment of the actual evidence will show you made unconscious unwarrented assumptions that ruined the reliability of your conclusion.

Hey, there's a lot of that going around. Pilots and radar-experts seem to do it a lot, too.

[skyeagle409]

And the evidence that there was no external interference is, exactly, what? If you can't even provide the date/time of the event, how can you know there weren't routine thruster firings going on at that point?

If one object is affected, others nearby would be as well. One object slows down, makes at 90 degree turn while others remains either in position, or on a constant heading. Another reverse its course. If the objects come in contact with another at high velocities, they are going to go out with a flash.

Edited September 23, 2007 by skyeagle409

[JimOberg]

If one object is affected, others nearby would be as well.

Why? Thruster plumes are shadowed by shuttle structure, stuff closer to the camera wouldn't feel the plumes that stuff further out would feel. You see that effect in the STS-48 video too -- half the dots change course, half don't. You are still overlooking the DEPTH of the field-of-view.

One object slows down, makes at 90 degree turn ...

No way to conclude it made a 90 degree turn. It could have made a 5, 10, maybe 20 degree turn with motion largely into the plane of the field-of-view. AGAIN, you are completely overlooking the depth of the scene, its 3D-ness. Are you really that obtuse, when acute angles can be a result of perspective?

If the objects come in contact with another at high velocities, they are going to go out with a flash.

Based on what profound insights into physics? Are you suggesting half the dots are anti-matter?

Your posted response is so chock full of false assumptions distorting conclusions that it's easy to see how you have misperceived, and now are misrepresenting, the fundamental dynamic processes shown on these videos.

[skyeagle409]

Why? Thruster plumes are shadowed by shuttle structure, stuff closer to the camera wouldn't feel the plumes that stuff further out would feel.

If an object is next to another, both are going to be affected and I am still waiting for that information from NASA to make a point.

[JimOberg]

If an object is next to another, both are going to be affected and I am still waiting for that information from NASA to make a point.

And you know it is 'next' to it how? By assuming the range from the camera is the same? How convenient.

What information was it that you requested from NASA? Thruster firings? For what date/time intervals?

Do you have trouble interpreting third dimension in a visual field a lot, as you clearly have in the case of these space videos?

Do you insist that a 90 degree course change HAD to have occurred, or do you realize, once you actually think about it, that the course change could be much less and just LOOK that way because of 3D projection into the 2D TV FOV?

[skyeagle409]

And you know it is 'next' to it how? By assuming the range from the camera is the same? How convenient.

What information was it that you requested from NASA? Thruster firings? For what date/time intervals?

Do you have trouble interpreting third dimension in a visual field a lot, as you clearly have in the case of these space videos?

Do you insist that a 90 degree course change HAD to have occurred, or do you realize, once you actually think about it, that the course change could be much less and just LOOK that way because of 3D projection into the 2D TV FOV?

There were things that I noticed in NASA videos in regards to the behavior of some objects and why I want that information from NASA because the information should show whether there was a firing at certain points and if no firings occurred at the timeline indicated, then, there is going to be a bit of a problem on claims the objects were affected by thrusters.

[JimOberg]

There were things that I noticed in NASA videos in regards to the behavior of some objects and why I want that information from NASA because the information should show whether there was a firing at certain points and if no firings occurred at the timeline indicated, then, there is going to be a bit of a problem on claims the objects were affected by thrusters.

So then, you do accept the STS-48 video explanation since there WERE thrusters firing at the time of the course changes?

You do accept that explanation, then?

[skyeagle409]

So then, you do accept the STS-48 video explanation since there WERE thrusters firing at the time of the course changes?

You do accept that explanation, then?

As far as the movement of certain objects, not at this point, however, I am still looking into STS-48.

[JimOberg]

I am still looking into STS-48.

Do you understand the issue of three dimensions and how it trashes your claim of 90 degree turns?