A possible new twist to the big bang

[Ravinar]

I first thought of this when i heard about Steven Hawking's theory about black holes and baby universes. after learning a bit more on how black holes worked' for instance there is a black hole at the center of every galaxy' as a black hole feeds it becomes bigger and bigger feeding on suns planets and even other black holes' i began to think that if black holes can get bigger then that means that the stuff inside the black hole which is super condensed and highly pressurized mite be exuding allot of internal pressure inside the black hole and since its the extreme gravity that holds it all in i wondered if a black hole which grew and grew to the point at which the internal pressure was stronger then the gravity that was holding all that matter and energy in, it would explode and release all the matter and energy that it had collected over countless eons of time in one massive explosion. also if this is true then it would mean that space and time did not start with the big bang. the big bang was only the event that created all the energy and matter that we see around us (suns, planets, galaxy's ext.) if the universe is infinite then that would mean all the energy and matter that came from the big bang would only make up a very small part of are universe. we also know that are known universe is expanding and all the galaxy's are moving farther and farther apart. what if this is not the expansion of space and time but the spreading out of the galaxy's into the infinite void of are universe. that would also leave the possibility that there are big bangs that happened before or after are own even some that mite be happening right now with there own cluster of galaxy's, suns, planets ext. all in the same universe with black holes being made in them to start the cycle all over again.

just thought i would post a topic on an idea i had. if it has been done before or some scientist has already had this idea then i would like to read there work if you could give me a link.

[Picturesque Orion]

Ok first of all, when we talk of what is and what can happen in a black hole we cannot refer to the normal physics, but to quantom physics and quantom mechanics.

Everything that "falls" into a black hole, at some point hits singularity. Singularity is a compressed region of the black hole with zero volume and thus infinite density and gravitational pull, this means infinite preasure.

With infinite gravitational pull and preasure, a black hole would not explode from inside out.

[Ravinar]

Ok first of all, when we talk of what is and what can happen in a black hole we cannot refer to the normal physics, but to quantom physics and quantom mechanics.

Everything that "falls" into a black hole, at some point hits singularity. Singularity is a compressed region of the black hole with zero volume and thus infinite density and gravitational pull, this means infinite preasure.

With infinite gravitational pull and preasure, a black hole would not explode from inside out.

not trying to be a smart %$# here but then why do black holes get bigger as they eat more matter? <---- serious question

[Picturesque Orion]

not trying to be a smart %$# here but then why do black holes get bigger as they eat more matter? <---- serious question

They do?

Ok on the serious part, where did you get such information? Black holes certainly don't get bigger as they "feed off" matter, all contraire, black holes get smaller second by second due to a progress called 'evaporation'. Here I'l let wiki explain:

Evaporation

Hawking radiation is a theoretical process by which black holes can evaporate into nothing. As there is no experimental evidence to corroborate it and there are still some major questions about the theoretical basis of the process, there is still debate about whether Hawking radiation can enable black holes to evaporate.

Quantum mechanics says that even the purest vacuum is not completely empty but is instead a "sea" of energy (known as zero-point energy) which has wave-like fluctuations. We cannot observe this "sea" of energy directly because there is no lower energy level with which we can compare it. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle dictates that it is impossible to know the exact value of the mass-energy and position pairings. The fluctuations in this sea produce pairs of particles in which one is made of normal matter and the other is the corresponding antiparticle (special relativity proves mass-energy equivalence, i.e. that mass can be converted into energy and vice versa). Normally each would soon meet another instance of its antiparticle and the two would be totally converted into energy, restoring the overall matter-energy balance as it was before the pair of particles was created. The Hawking radiation theory suggests that, if such a pair of particles is created just outside the event horizon of a black hole, one of the two particles may fall into the black hole while the other escapes, because the two particles move in slightly different directions after their creation. From the point of view of an outside observer, the black hole has just emitted a particle and therefore the black hole has lost a minute amount of its mass.

If the Hawking radiation theory is correct, only the very smallest black holes are likely to evaporate in this way. For example a black hole with the mass of our Moon would gain as much energy (and therefore mass - mass-energy equivalence again) from cosmic microwave background radiation as it emits by Hawking radiation, and larger black holes will gain more energy (and mass) than they emit. To put this in perspective, the smallest black hole which can be created naturally at present is about 5 times the mass of our sun, so most black holes have much greater mass than our Moon.

Over time the cosmic microwave background radiation becomes weaker. Eventually it will be weak enough so that more Hawking radiation will be emitted than the energy of the background radiation being absorbed by the black hole. Through this process, even the largest black holes will eventually evaporate. However, this process may take nearly a googol years to complete.

[Raptor]

not trying to be a smart %$# here but then why do black holes get bigger as they eat more matter? <---- serious question

Hmm...as a black hole's mass increases the event horizon increases accordingly. The event horizon is just the point of no return, a consequence of the presence of a black hole rather than being part of the black hole its self.

Although I'm not really an expert on the subject, that's what I figure happens.

Edited September 21, 2007 by Raptor X7

[GreyWeather]

Hmm...as a black hole's mass increases the event horizon increases accordingly. The event horizon is just the point of no return, a consequence of the presence of a black hole rather than being part of the black hole its self.

Although I'm not really an expert on the subject, that's what I figure happens.

I've always figured black holes to be the 'imploded' star. So that, it's not really a hole, but an infinately dense sphere of what the star used to be. Hence all the gravity it radiates and the growth of them.

[Picturesque Orion]

I've always figured black holes to be the 'imploded' star. So that, it's not really a hole, but an infinately dense sphere of what the star used to be. Hence all the gravity it radiates and the growth of them.

A black hole is a region in space where gravity is so strong that not even light can escape. This is what makes a black hole invisible, and can only be recognized and located by it's effects on stars, nebulae ect.....

[Ravinar]

They do?

Ok on the serious part, where did you get such information? Black holes certainly don't get bigger as they "feed off" matter, all contraire, black holes get smaller second by second due to a progress called 'evaporation'.

first off i think i remember now where i got that idea. i heard some where that when two galaxy's combine (like are milky way and andromeda galaxy's are set to do some time in the future ) the black holes at there center eat each other and become an even bigger black hole. that was a mistake on my part

secondly i thank for the info. though i have a another question because I'm not sure i understand this correctly. (quote) Quantum mechanics says that even the purest vacuum is not completely empty but is instead a "sea" of energy (quote) now dose this mean that every thing that fell into a black hole will eventually escape in the form of Hawking radiation?

[Picturesque Orion]

first off i think i remember now where i got that idea. i heard some where that when two galaxy's combine (like are milky way and andromeda galaxy's are set to do some time in the future ) the black holes at there center eat each other and become an even bigger black hole. that was a mistake on my part blush.gif

Well then this is something diferent, as I have said before, black holes are a region in space where gravity is so strong that not even light can escape, if two of this regions (black holes) combine, of course the gravity pull although being much infinite, will be much stronger, and the density although being infinite, will be higher and this is what scientist mean by them combining and getting bigger.

secondly i thank for the info. original.gif though i have a another question because I'm not sure i understand this correctly. (quote) Quantum mechanics says that even the purest vacuum is not completely empty but is instead a "sea" of energy (quote) now dose this mean that every thing that fell into a black hole will eventually escape in the form of Hawking radiation?

All matter 'falling' into the black hole, before crossing the event horizon, emit very high amounts of radiation.

Hawking radiation is thermal radiation emited by black holes due to quantom effects.

Here is some reliable info:

Because Hawking radiation allows black holes to lose mass, black holes which lose more matter than they gain through other means are expected to evaporate, shrink, and ultimately vanish. Smaller 'micro' black holes are currently predicted by theory to be larger net emitters of radiation than larger black holes, and to shrink and evaporate faster

.

[leadbelly]

paraphrase- does every thing that falls into a black hole eventually escape in the form of Hawking radiation?

nyet. not in any practical sense. the universe may have a finite lifetime, limited by a theoretical expansive energy, called dark energy. that negative vacuum energy would dilute matter itself, as well as any black holes (since dark energy trumps gravity). this would likely occur prior to massive or stellar black holes even starting to show any sign of evaporation.

you are talking about virtual particles becoming real, and escaping a black hole. that is micro-slow.

[Ravinar]

i think i understand it now but if im wrong please feel free to correct me. i think i can revamp my hypothesis.....

("quote") Over time the cosmic microwave background radiation becomes weaker. Eventually it will be weak enough so that more Hawking radiation will be emitted than the energy of the background radiation being absorbed by the black hole. Through this process, even the largest black holes will eventually evaporate. However, this process may take nearly a googol years to complete.("quote") if a black hole can evaporate away then what happens to all the energy and matter that got compressed down to a singularity? now again this is only conjecture and feel free to point out the flaws in this but what if when a black hole evaporates away all the matter and energy that was compressed down to a singularity is released and in effect creates a big bang? they say are universe was once very very small even smaller then an atom. what els that we know of has the power to do that other then a black hole? is that possible?

[Ravinar]

nyet. not in any practical sense. the universe may have a finite lifetime, limited by a theoretical expansive energy, called dark energy. that negative vacuum energy would dilute matter itself, as well as any black holes (since dark energy trumps gravity). this would likely occur prior to massive or stellar black holes even starting to show any sign of evaporation.

you are talking about virtual particles becoming real, and escaping a black hole. that is micro-slow.

but what if are universe is not an enclosed place but an infinite void? what if the big bang didn't start space and time? what if space and time are much older then the big bang?

Edited September 22, 2007 by Ravinar

[Picturesque Orion]

if a black hole can evaporate away then what happens to all the energy and matter that got compressed down to a singularity?

I'm sorry but that is beyond my knowledge, but from the looks of things, it could be lost. What I really know is as a black hole evaporates, it gets smaller and as it gets smaller, from a certain point it starts emiting very high amounts of radiation and visible ligh, yes it becomes visible, and the visible light gets brighter as the black hole gets smaller, at the last moment, the black hole outshines the whole galaxy.

Of course this starts from a certain point of it's size, and this happens very very slowly, a supermassive black hole would take 'google' years to evaporate completly.

Black holes are believed to be the last lasting after the end of the star era.

According to the theory of the big bang, before there was a dark era, there were no stars, not galaxies no planets, but this changed when matter and energy came close enough to generate enough gravity to form the first stars, after this the same gravity of the stars pulled them all together to form the first galaxies, we can see this activity happening today thanks to the hubble space telescope, and this was te begining of the star era, and we are living in it now, but...... a star is born from gas, solids and other material, then it dies releasing all this material.

The problem is that some of this somehow 'recycled' material is burned during the lifespan of the star, yes... it's burned away from the star, this happens with all the stars,this burned material dissapears transform to energy to power the star, of course this burned out material is a minimun compared to the whole amount of material that the star contains, but the problem is that as every star in the universe is doing this, and black holes 'consuming', each time we have less and less matter, the Milky Way itself is getting smaller and smaller, in a 'google' years from now ( wich is a very very very long time) matter will cease to exist, the last stars will die and burn out the last matter, the lights of the universe would dissapear, black holes would consume all matter left and energy, this would mark the return of the dark era, afte a few more 'google' years ( very very very very long time) the last black holes would evaporate, nothing would be left, what will happen after this? Well to this day this is unknown.

Here since you are asking for info here is a great source of info, two documentaries, very interesting, please take time to watch them, the first one is "The future of the Milky Way", it explains better all that I mentioned in this post and explains black holes, and the second one is about black holes only:

Second one:

Edited September 23, 2007 by Alex01

[Ravinar]

oohh thank you! i love documentaries

Edit: just got done watching them. they were awesome!

Edited September 23, 2007 by Ravinar

[signal7]

Black holes are a singular entity, represented by an infinitesimal. What goes in, becomes infinitely small.

The newer theory coming out is that they are a wave distortion, that leads to another region/external plane. Like the Worm Hole theory, also related to 'string theory'.

When studying Hawkin's theories, be sure to use the newer ones, as he has reverted and accepted he may have been wrong in his first conjectures.

[leadbelly]

1. Over time the cosmic microwave background radiation becomes weaker. 2. Eventually it will be weak enough so that more Hawking radiation will be emitted than the energy of the background radiation being absorbed by the black hole. 3. Through this process, even the largest black holes will eventually evaporate. 4. What happens to energy and matter singularities? 5. Is it released into a big bang? 6.They say are universe was once smaller then an atom. Was it a black hole?

1. Over time, does the cosmic microwave background radiation become weaker?

Cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB) changes wavelength over long periods of time. CMB began as gamma rays, appearing micro-seconds after the Big Bang, after electromagnetic energy was liberated from the other unified forces. As the Universe expanded and cooled, so did the photons that were present. And the gamma rays eventually lost some energy, to the point of being infrared photons in the 1 micron range..

Matter cooled and was less ionized, so photons interacted less with the new atomic matter. They traveled more freely, and after their last scattering off matter, they moved at relativistic speed out into the surrounding space. Matter then began to cool and clump into giant gas clouds, by comparison.

After about 5 billion years, theory says that a negative vacuum energy initiated further expansion of space- dark energy. As space expands (mostly intergalactic space), the primordial photons in those regions are stretched, as well. They have become microwaves, over the last, 13.69962 billion years.

2. Eventually, will the CMB be weak enough so that more Hawking radiation will be emitted than the energy of the background radiation being absorbed by the black hole?

The CMB is composed of photons. They have energy, but no mass. Yes, they weaken over epochs of time, but they are not in need of avoiding the scattered black hole population. Hawking radiation is minute, and in remote locations (centers of galaxies, or scattered throughout galaxies). The CMB was last scattered 380K years ABB. Then, for a few hundred million years, the CMB, in its near-infrared stage, permeated space.

Almost 300 million years later, massive stars and jets from supermassive black holes then emerged. Those were in various clumps and super groups, but did not fill the Universe or interfere with the CMB.

The CMB would not add to the mass of a black hole (light has no mass, but can be converted to minute amounts of mass). Stellar sized black holes tend to stretch material as it first enters them, and then compact it. Larger, very massive black holes are thought to swallow whole stars, without a lot of intial deformation. Regardless, BHs take only what is in their local gravity, not beyond. So, they will not de-populate the galaxies of excessive material. BHs do not consume their host galaxy. Nor, will any BHs diminish the CMB, which is also is across intergalactic space. For that matter, more quantites of intergalactic hydrogen were discovered to exist several years ago. Black holes won't get close to that, either.

3. Through this process, will even the largest black holes will eventually evaporate?

Nyet.

4. What happens to energy and matter in singularities?

They call it the Vegas effect. "What goes on here, stays here". Like a roulette wheel exerting centripetal force, it sends the ball spiraling inward. It is an interesting question, if unanswerable. Alex01 seems right when he says it is lost.

5. Is it released in a Big Bang?

It is not really possible to do more than conjecture about the pre- Big Bang epoch. It certainly appears to have something in common with a singularity, without having been permanently, infinitely dense. There was possibly some sort of vacuum condition with runaway quantum flux, that led to the Big Bang. As opposed to a singularity, with mass.

For example, as I understand, spacetime appeared, inflated, and the cooling flux condensed into forces, and then matter. It happened everywhere, in less than a second. So, did a black hole explode? Or, unlike a point exploding, did the Universe "turn on" in a flash, then super inflate, then cool and condense out individual forces, light, and matter?

If it was originally a black hole with mass, how did it get that way? It takes a massive star, what, a second to collapse into a black hole? But, the entire Universe inflated in less than a second? Where is the similarity?

6.They say are universe was once smaller then an atom. Was it a black hole?

I think, as I stated, that black holes are special conditions of spacetime. And, spacetime is a special condition of vacuum flux. A primordial vacuum arose with a slight pressure flux. This flux repeated until it was the dominant state of the vacuum- this led to the Big Bang, which cooled a fraction, leading to another outward vacuum flux (inflation), which cooled somewhat after 5 billion years, leading to another weak flux now referred to as dark energy (according to theory).

[leadbelly]

Video Clip

[leadbelly]

Someone might find this interesting-

A GAMMA-RAY HALO “GLOW” FROM PRIMORDIAL BLACK HOLE EVAPORATION

Probably the most mysterious way to view the sky is in gamma-rays. Gamma rays are the most energetic form of electromagnetic radiation, and it takes extraordinary processes to generate them. Powerful explosions (like those produced when a star falls into a black hole, or 2 neutron stars collide, or when a matter cloud collides with an anti-matter cloud) can produce gamma rays, but such sources only shine for a brief period, then fade. Some sources emit gamma rays all the time.

How these sources do this is not entirely known, though it probably involves very strong magnetic fields or extremely powerful shocks. The EGRET detector on the Compton Gamma Ray Observatory produced the best map of the gamma ray sources in the universe. The image above is the EGRET gamma ray source map, in which the bright areas are the 271 gamma-ray emitting objects seen by EGRET. This map is in Galactic coordinates, which means that the center of the Milky Way is at the center of the image, and the disk of the Galaxy runs along the center of the image, right to left. This false color image shows the brightness of the gamma ray sources seen by EGRET; large white objects glow more brightly in gamma rays than small orange ones.

[signal7]

--->1. Over time the cosmic microwave background radiation becomes weaker. 2. Eventually it will be weak enough so that more Hawking radiation will be emitted than the energy of the background radiation being absorbed by the black hole. 3. Through this process, even the largest black holes will eventually evaporate. 4. What happens to energy and matter singularities? 5. Is it released into a big bang? 6.They say are universe was once smaller then an atom. Was it a black hole?

Microwaves do not travel well through any medium, including the emptiness of space. This is why those little ovens are so safe. And effective. Very concentrate.

As, in theories always do, they evolve. The problem with black whole theory is, when you have enough to go on, you should be able to locate one. Where determining now through Gravitometric inferences that there should be one dead center in the galaxies due to the crushing effect that is believed to also form black holes. As, opposed to popping up everywhere at random.

Microwaves, close enough, would be absorbed directly into matter that is undergoing transformation into the void right before being drawn in. This point used to be the Event Horizon, only with newer optics, we don't see what we expected. When the atoms of matter begin to accelerate wildly internally, they'll latch on to what may be handy to fight it and remain in equilibrium. This includes most, but not all, forms of wave energy. Homeostasis is not fought well, except near spectacular events. So, I'm borrowing from someone's theories. May be right, might not. Won't know for sure 'til we get direct observation.

***Note to mods, the kbd wranglers are busy, and I'm sure it's not in transit. As, meaning is thrown. Do a server scan<---.

Edited September 25, 2007 by signal7

[Ravinar]

so what i get from this is kinda what i expected. we just don't know enough to say much of any thing with any kind of certainty. but still its fun to exchange ideas