bathory Posted January 10, 2004 #51 Share Posted January 10, 2004 its impossible to scientifically disprove the existance of a god . well contradictory properties is an ideal method of disproving somethings existence. But yes, it would be scientifically impossible to prove a negative...just like me asking you to prove that there are no quaghoppers. Burden of proof rest firmly on the shoulders of those making the positive claim, and guess what...ZERO PROOF:) You need plenty faith for evolution as you must assume that the universe itself existed in the first place . two completely different theories Evolution is a theory and always will be . theories can be proven wrong . its so obvious you have no idea:) do you even understand the concept of a scientific theory? so what if theories can be proven wrong? does that suddenly mean it is wrong? I was trying to explain to him both beliefs need faith . no, one relies on evidence the other relies on unsubstantiated claims i don't think i have to tell you which one is which Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doink Posted January 10, 2004 #52 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Since the topic has once again changed from "Does God exist?" to "Creation vs. Evolution, on and on to the Big Bang" I have to say that no, evolution is in it's own field. The Big Bang is the best option or idea available right now to the science communtiy. Of course their are newer discoveries every day into how our universe works, but this stuff is based on astronomy studies. Evolution is the process of a species to better itself given the change in environment, or to better adapt to it's environment. As I'm not overly interested in the Big Bang, I don't know all the particulars. But since I am interested in human evolution, I do know that there are a lot of skeletons of apes that walked on two legs, then later used crude stone tools, then later were replaced by skeletons of a half human half ape man, that used fire, hunted with sharpened sticks, better stone tools. Later ( or should I say further up to the surface where the archeologists were digging) are found tthe bones of Neanderthals and Cromagnons, which were almost indistinguishable from humans today (Cro-mags). They had advanced tools, used fire etc. The tools were found with all these skeletons, proof of fire, all the things that we know of them are based on physical evidence. We find more in between stages every day. It doesn't take a huge leap of faith to see the connection. For a better view, and not one so personal, look at elephants. They've changed dramatically over time. I'd have to find the link but I saw it in a National Geographic I think how we are able to see into smaller and smaller levels through the most advanced microscopes. The more scientists are able to see the intricate patterns that bind us together the more the idea grows within them that there really is some kind of living force behind it all. The pope even said that evolution is very possible. I know you guys like to fight amongst your denominations but it becomes apparent that every one's perceptions are evolving to the point that they see very little difference between what we all are barely starting to comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted January 10, 2004 #53 Share Posted January 10, 2004 *Bathory has entered the realm* Bathory , read fluffbunnies posts on this subject and try to figure out why this makes you hypocritical . I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted January 10, 2004 #54 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity . if you want over simplify things, then sure they are similar... but in reality there is a huge difference between the beginning of time and existence and the development of life. You can argue as much as you want, evolution has been proven, and even if it can be proven wrong (hypothetically) there is no evidence to support creationism, claiming otherwise would be known as a non-sequitor. i don't see any hypocrisy on my part, but hey, point it out if you must:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffybunny Posted January 10, 2004 #55 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity . I understand what you are saying, I can see how you would come to that conclusion. The intersting thing about both of those theories is that the didn't try to prove or disprove the existance of god at all. If you take the time to read about the theories, you will find that they weren't trying to explain away god, just trying to explain the processes that they viewed around them, be it biological or cosmological. I know that some athiest point to the two theories as "proof" that god doesn't exist, but that isn't the case at all. Folks that are leaning on the two theories to disprove god, haven't taken the time to actually read them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted January 10, 2004 #56 Share Posted January 10, 2004 evolution disproves creationism you give far to much credit to your theist brethren. trying to disprove evolution is like trying to disprove the moon landings:) my original point: evolution is fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted January 10, 2004 #57 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I know that some athiest point to the two theories as "proof" that god doesn't exist, but that isn't the case at all. Folks that are leaning on the two theories to disprove god, haven't taken the time to actually read them woot , sounds like more of a blow to other atheists then the non atheists . Whos side are you taking anyway ? Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere ... I tried to make a joke out of it but noooooo..... I summon a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted January 10, 2004 #58 Share Posted January 10, 2004 figures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosswarrior Posted January 10, 2004 #59 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Bathory you have said that Evolution is fact, and you seem to imply that even if it could be proven wrong that it would not matter; and that faith has nothing to do withthe matter. You seem to say that we must disprove Evolution in order for there to be a God. All the while knowing that it is impossible to completely disprove Evolution or Creationism. No one was there who is alive today, there are no records that have been wrote by witnesses to the event of Creation, be it by evolutionary means or by Divine Creation. I can no more prove that Evolution is false, than you can prove that God does not exist. Or maybe you can. I am sure that you alone are endowed with all the knowledge of the Universe, and thus are able to prove once and for all that God is Fake. So give us a sample of your almighty wisdom and lay this matter to rest forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novo Posted January 10, 2004 #60 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I have some questions and thought this would be the right thread to ask............ We were made in God's image?So does that mean God looks like an everyday,normal human?Where did people go when they died BEFORE religions were started?Why do all the religions seem to worship someone different?Like some worship the Virgin Mary,others Jesus,etc.I thought God and Jesus were not the same person,so why do some religions only worship Jesus?How do you know which religion is right and which is wrong?Did God create man AFTER all the other types of man were already here,or was it neanderthal and the other pre-historic men that he created? We were made in his image... that means we look SIMILIAR to him he probably has some diffrences... and I believe when we die we turn into pure energy so we can really choose what we look like anyway... maybe gods humanoid? thats all I mean... And you will know wich one is right from experience... God bless you ya know! At least you asking some questions and not just making a quick deduction without even looking beyond science and just sitting and thinking about the world around you.... Science is as much religion as Christianity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted January 10, 2004 #61 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Bathory you have said that Evolution is fact, and you seem to imply that even if it could be proven wrong that it would not matter; and that faith has nothing to do withthe matter. yes...your point? You seem to say that we must disprove Evolution in order for there to be a God. i never said that, nor implied that the closest i would have gotten is saying that evolution is fact, creationism isn't. All the while knowing that it is impossible to completely disprove Evolution or Creationism. who said it was impossible to do either? perhaps you could offer some proofs of Creationism? oh wait there isn't any. No one was there who is alive today, there are no records that have been wrote by witnesses to the event of Creation, be it by evolutionary means or by Divine Creation. I can no more prove that Evolution is false, than you can prove that God does not exist. good for you, its a shame that it isn't the issue. Or maybe you can. I am sure that you alone are endowed with all the knowledge of the Universe, and thus are able to prove once and for all that God is Fake. So give us a sample of your almighty wisdom and lay this matter to rest forever. sigh, i'll say it once more, its impossible to prove a negative assertion.. perhaps you should try to offer evidence in regards to your beliefs instead of asking me to disprove them. run along now Science is as much religion as Christianity... there is a HUGE difference between Christianity and Science, science is based on testable facts and observations, christianity is based on heresay and superstition. Its like saying that The Lord of the Rings is as much of a historical account as a non-fiction book about World War 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novo Posted January 10, 2004 #62 Share Posted January 10, 2004 (edited) I Am Thirteen Heres My Proof Of My Faith (removed) Had Countless obes Spoken in Tongues (An Amazing Experience) Been Filled With The Holy Spirit Had Foresight And I believe my mother may have contacted the desceased in her dreams... I never remember mine I have also Entered the astral Some Speculate I Am A Prophet (LOL I Doubt God Would Need Some Kid) Gotten p***ed for no apparent reason (Nows a good Example) There is your proof of creation Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God... Tut tut. That's not a very Christian thing to say, S&A. Edited January 10, 2004 by Aslan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted January 10, 2004 #63 Share Posted January 10, 2004 There is your proof of creation thats not proof of creation thats anecdotal evidence of the supernatural (if that, mental instability could also explain it) what makes you assume that its a god/s? hell what makes you assume its YOUR god? Did you know that i had an OBE and i met a cat which said that you are wrong! wow definitive proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofkrypton Posted January 10, 2004 Author #64 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Being an Atheist i'd like to offer one thought on this creationvsevolution:- What if the big bang happened and the planets an galaxies and all else was created and God decided to put his magic spoon in the cooking pot so to speak and started life off but that he also created a way for life to progress on its own ie evolution i may be over simplifying this what does everyone think (be gentle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nethius Posted January 10, 2004 #65 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I Am Thirteen Heres My Proof Of My Faith Yes thats proof of your faith, not of creation Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God... and i have experienced obe when i was younger. i learned a technique used to try and control your dreams, and often before i went to sleep i would have that experience. i believe it to be a state of mind, i put my mind in such a state that it would seem like i'm having an obe, but it is just like dreaming, it really isnt happening. i have since stopped, becasue it was freaking me out, and i would often be aware in my dreams, try to wake up, and not be able to! that is a scary situation but again, this is all in my head! there is no God controlling me, or whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted January 10, 2004 #66 Share Posted January 10, 2004 sigh, i'll say it once more, its impossible to prove a negative assertion.. perhaps you should try to offer evidence in regards to your beliefs instead of asking me to disprove them. run along now evolution disproves creationism It would be nice if you could stop contradicting yourself . there is a HUGE difference between Christianity and Science, science is based on testable facts and observations, christianity is based on heresay and superstition. Its like saying that The Lord of the Rings is as much of a historical account as a non-fiction book about World War 2. You dont know much about the bible then . Taking out all the things about god , their are records of historical events in the bible that have been proven to have occured , even Jesus's crucifiction is documented elsewhere outside the bible . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffybunny Posted January 10, 2004 #67 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere ... I tried to make a joke out of it but noooooo..... woot , sounds like more of a blow to other atheists then the non atheists Actually it isn't a blow to anybody really. I have seen that people have been using both evolution and the big bang theory in an attempt to disprove gods existance. I happen to have been a biology major in college, with a minor in astronomy. I have a little bit of knowledge about the two issues and get defensive when they are repeatedly used outside of the scope of their intended use. Neither of the originators of their theories was trying to disprove a god at all. Before this gets taken out of context I need to add a caveat. If you are a biblical literalist and think that the earth was actually created in 6 calander days(with a day off for god), well then we aren't going to see eye to eye no matter how hard we try. Both of these theories deal with much longer timelines that the biblical 6 millenia. Although science allows for the timelines to adjust a bit to allow for new scientific findings, we are still talking about evolution occuring over millions of years, and the big bang occuring some 13 billion years ago. Whos side are you taking anyway ? I am taking the side of logic and reasoning. As I have said in the past I want people to think. If someone chooses to believe in christianity because they feel that is their own best personal choice, that is wonderful, and I am fully supportive of that. I have a problem when people choose a given religeon without any thought, or out of fear of going to hell. I have alot of concerns with how christianity gets it's followers, but that is a different thread. Fundamentalists bother me to no end... Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere I don't think that is the case at all. It can be interesting to see other peoples point of view. It can be good to learn about what motivates other people to their given point of view. Just as long as it doesn't turn into a screaming match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted January 10, 2004 #68 Share Posted January 10, 2004 In that case , my motive for becoming christian was because I really liked some of the views protrayed in it . "treat others how you like to b treated" "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone" ect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 10, 2004 #69 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Being an Atheist i'd like to offer one thought on this creationvsevolution:- What if the big bang happened and the planets an galaxies and all else was created and God decided to put his magic spoon in the cooking pot so to speak and started life off but that he also created a way for life to progress on its own ie evolution i may be over simplifying this what does everyone think (be gentle) It really is an either or concept. Either God created everything or he didn't create anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Posted January 10, 2004 #70 Share Posted January 10, 2004 It really is an either or concept. Either God created everything or he didn't create anything. I don't think the previous post went against that position. He was saying couldn't God have created the universe to operate through natural mechanisms? So species are created by evolution. But evolution was created by God, therefore species are created by God and he uses the mechanism of evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 10, 2004 #71 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I don't think the previous post went against that position. After closer review...you are right. I actually hold that view myself. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofkrypton Posted January 10, 2004 Author #72 Share Posted January 10, 2004 thankyou void you put it better than i did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novo Posted January 10, 2004 #73 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I Am Thirteen Heres My Proof Of My Faith Yes thats proof of your faith, not of creation Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God... and i have experienced obe when i was younger. i learned a technique used to try and control your dreams, and often before i went to sleep i would have that experience. i believe it to be a state of mind, i put my mind in such a state that it would seem like i'm having an obe, but it is just like dreaming, it really isnt happening. i have since stopped, becasue it was freaking me out, and i would often be aware in my dreams, try to wake up, and not be able to! that is a scary situation but again, this is all in my head! there is no God controlling me, or whatever... My faith is in creation... And have you ever been aware when your leaving your body? Try sleeping over at a friends have them put something in the kitchen like a number on a piece of paper... leave your body and look at it... theres your proof... Thats a obe... what you talking about is a lucid dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted January 11, 2004 #74 Share Posted January 11, 2004 It would be nice if you could stop contradicting yourself . ...sigh it looks like i'm going to have to explain it out slowly for you ok, when talking about a negative assertion, i'm refering to a universal negative such as lets see...uh god! unless one is omniscient, one must conceed that somewhere out there god may exist. In that case, asking someone to disprove god is like asking them to disprove lickertappers (thats something i made up, still with me? ) Evolution and Creationism are both clearly defined AND are supposed to apply to the earth, both are models which are concerned with the same thing and are mutually exclusive, neither present the problem of a universal negative, therefore negative assertions don't apply...capiche? You dont know much about the bible then . Taking out all the things about god , their are records of historical events in the bible that have been proven to have occured , even Jesus's crucifiction is documented elsewhere outside the bible . you've got to be kidding me? Just because Jesus was crucified does not mean he was the son of god. Great logic, so i'll assume that because Rainbow 6 by Tom Clancy makes use of real historical events that can be verified elsewhere, that the actual events in the story occured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted January 11, 2004 #75 Share Posted January 11, 2004 your taking this too hard bathory , and you are contradicting yourself evolution disproves creationism ok , creationism is the idea of god , so its a universal negative . i'm refering to a universal negative such as lets see...uh god! you agree to this apperantly , now you say therefore negative assertions don't apply...capiche? so its impossible to disprove a negative , true . Now lets substitute in "evolution disproves creationism" with "god" therefore negative like you are saying evolution disproves a negative A slip of the tongue perhaps ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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