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Vfr

Why don't we do anything about global warming

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Vfr

Why don't we do anything about global warming...because we can't.

To do anything substantive would cause a financial and population backlash of unimaginable proportions.

And what we could do, even with drastic measures, would not cure global warming but only slow things down.

In addition, there is no one global entity to control all the green house gas emitters. China an India plan on adding more dirty coal burning electric plants to feed their burgeoning economies.

Yes, we have Kyoto, but...the largest polluters of green house gasses have exempted themselves from it.

"As of June 2007, a total of 172 countries and other governmental entities have ratified the agreement (representing over 61.6% of emissions from Annex I countries). Notable exceptions include the United States and Australia. Other countries, like India and China, which have ratified the protocol, are not required to reduce carbon emissions under the present agreement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol

We can't start wars over green house gas like we do oil...even then we would have to go to war right here at home before we point fingers at other countries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3143798.stm

As far as foreign wars, many of these newly rich nations seem to be in a war of sorts to see who can build the biggest and the tallest. Well, the bigger the building is the more energy it takes to power it and the more green house gas is given off to pay for the ego behind the monstrosity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_talle...llest_buildings

Thoreau once said when people invited him to dinner they 'put their pride' in how fancy and expensive a meal they could make. Whereas he put his pride in how simple and inexpensive a meal he could make.

Where do we put our pride?

We surely don't put it in living within our means and in balance with nature.

In the US, 93.2% of our electric comes from non renewable, greenhouse gas producing methods.

If we are looking to hydroelectric and renewable sources, 4.46% of our electric comes from hydroelectric and 2.34% comes from renewable energy production.

Out of this 2.34% of renewable sources, an undisclosed portion still contributes to global warming despite its prestige of being a 'renewable energy source' as it involves the burning of wood, black liquor, wood waste, municipal solid waste, landfill gas, sludge waste, tires, agriculture byproducts and biomass.

Only a fraction of the 2.34% of renewable electric energy that is produced comes from geothermal, solar thermal, photovoltaic energy, and wind.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epates.html

Lets say we decided to turn off the coal fired plants for 25% of a 24 hour day to save some fossil fuel.

Saving 25% seems to be a modest proposal.

So they shut the coal fired plants down for 6 hours during peak daytime operation.

And lets say we don't care that all the frozen food in the markets will thaw out and the refrigerated foods will spoil.

And lets say the workforce will sacrifice their jobs for the 6 hours every day while the electric is shut off.

And we put up with the gridlock and accidents from not having traffic lights and the doctors and hospitals all shut down.

And people just hold their noses over the backed up sewage that cannot be processed when the electric is off.

The real problem with trying to implement even a modest 25% fossil fuel saving plan is this - it just can't be done.

Coal fired plants are not of the nature to be turned off and turned on with the flip of a switch.

If a coal fired plant was turned off and completely cooled down it would take many days to bring it back online. If a coal powered plant was shut down even for 6 hours, it would take between 10 to 12 hours to bring it back to operational capacity.

In addition, when the plant is started back up, all the fossil fuel that is consumed in the startup does not make electric, it just goes to bring things back up to speed. And during startup, the plant operates at lower temperature and produces more pollution at those lower temperatures. And if that is not enough, startups of that magnitude send out power surges that destroy transformers and cause grid problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant

There is no 'simple or easy answer' to this issue nor is there even a 'not so simple and hard answer' to our dilemma.

The world is in a death spiral. it is just how we have built our world over the years.

It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But ten billion people can't burn the trees!

The World Coal Institute estimates world energy reserves as follows:

"At current production levels coal will be available for at least the next 155 years compared to 41 years for oil and 65 years for gas." (See footnote #1)

http://www.worldcoal.org/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=21

Even though this was written a few years ago and it is based on 'current production and consumption' it gives the same haunting message to the generations to come.

We may not see the end of our free flowing energy as we know it - but some of our descendants will in the not so distant future. This is the legacy they will inherit from us.

Mankind is just a little 'too smart' for his environment and learned to live beyond natures intended means.

But mankind does not seem 'smart enough' to fix the mess that it has created.

Yes, mankind has done great things over their reign on earth, but we must always remember nature does not bow to us..in the end we all bow to nature.

Our population has grown to levels where it has passed the point of no return for supporting a sustainable human population as we know it today.

And leading the pack of over consumers is the USA.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_...oil-consumption

Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism.

And what does all that consumerism lead to?

It leads to the mess we are in now and the bigger mess the world will be in once India and China pick up momentum to copycat the envious lifestyle that they have held in high esteem as the 'American Dream'

I love our country and would rather live here than anyplace else in the world. But be that as it may, our country and the rest of the world is built on unsustainable means and the bill is coming due soon for our spending spree.

Since the US is said to be about 75% Christian and was founded on maximum freedom for its people, I doubt whether the US will ever come up with a population control plan. It would be too controversial and it goes against promoting life, certain religions and personal freedoms.

And let me be clear, I am not promoting atheism -- for if I had to die in a hot box from global warming, I would rather die with the Christians praying than with the atheists cursing.

See:

"What the hell would we need 'spiritual values' for when we can have real values."

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0.

And while I cannot deny the wisdom of promoting life as many religions profess and personal freedom, sometime we must accept the lesser of two evils if promoting life turns into being more destructive to life than 'not promoting' it.

It then becomes a decision whether to choose between the 'greater good for the whole' or the 'greater personal right for the individual'... and the whole be damned. (Whole meaning entire human population of our planet.)

For instance, on a farm if the plants are planted packed like sardines (or 'packed like sushi' as they say in Japan) the plants do not flourish.

In nature, trees that are overcrowded weed themselves out by nature's decree. But if man forced the trees to not weed out and forces crowding the trees may die from disease due to a forced and unsustainable growth plan.

So it goes with how our planet is evolving...a sad but exactly true statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation

Now, I a not a tree hugger, green peace freak or communist. I drive dirt bikes, love 2 stroke 500cc thumpers, run jet skis and snowmobiles and could consume along with the best of em.

But I do respect and admire nature and most of all I respect and admire life and have had to 'mend my ways' so to speak once it sunk in how things were. And in the process I have given up a lot of personal desires for the greater good of the whole.

You see, the problem is not with the earth having enough land for all its people - the problem is with earth providing ad infinitum for all the needs the people crave.

The more people born, the more heat is produced from their life and all their cravings, As such, the warmer and more polluted the earth gets and the more energy they all use and the earths resources are depleted.

Fueling the problem of consumption is the games the Federal and World banks play with interest rates. They manage the economies in ways to fuel consumption and mask the real trend. Witness the recent cries for Federal bankers to lower interest rates...so the stock market can go up...fueled by spending of the consumer.

It is drug habit that Greenspan got us hooked on and we just can't get away from.

Our economy is not based on sustainable health - it is based low interest credit to encourage compulsive spending, debt and living a life of constant consumption with a 'disposable mentality' when it comes to durable goods.

All this consumption to artificially fuel our economy to make our retirement funds only go up contributes to more and more global warming and the depletion of our natural resources. Then the governments juggle the numbers to make the inflation figures seem artificially low, so everyone's retirement portfolio will make them happy so they will continue to buy and consume more...and on it goes....IT IS ALL WE KNOW

You see, no other animal destroys its environment except mankind. We are the only ones that do not accept and live within our comfortable means. We not only debt with our finances we debt with our environment. What we are borrowing in terms of petroleum, coal and natural gas takes millions of years for nature to make. Yet we are using it all up in just a few hundred years...we can never pay it back.

And even if you are of a religious bent that think God created it all 6000 years ago. What took 6000 years will still be used up in a fraction of the time it took to create it.

Some theists say we need to pray harder to God to fix our mess. Other theists say it is Gods punishment raining down on us?

No telling since God doesn't have much to say on this topic.

See:

'Why is God silent - I don't know?'

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0

The scary thing is China and India are just starting to bloom with their demands for fossil fuels We haven't seen anything yet with the meteoric rise of gas, energy and over consumption.

In China the per capita car ownership rate is 40 car owners per 1000 persons. In India it is much lower, running 8 cars per 1000 people. As these two giants evolve more of their population will want cars...in India, they are making a $2500 car as well.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/percapita_car_o.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20394364/

But what can one say about the problem unless people just cut back reproducing?

Everyone has a desire to have some sex stimulation and through that stimulation comes more and more people.

And everyone has a desire to keep warm when it is cold or to keep cool in the heat or move about the earth and wear clothes. And it is from all those desires that global warming fueled through the expenditure of fossil fuels takes place.

But the sad reality is even if people cut back having babies, we are only delaying the inevitable and that alone will not fix the problem. It can be compared to men stuck underwater in a crippled submarine. The more they move around, the quicker they run out of air and die. The less they move, the longer they can live...but the end result is the same.

Now maybe some genius will come up with a replacement for petroleum, natural gas and coal to meet all out needs. But it is unrealistic to think we can grow enough corn to fuel all the trucks, airlines, cargo ships, cars and other needs we humans have in addition run all the power plants and factories, heat and cool our homes.

You see all our energy needs are met with non sustainable non renewable resources whether it be coal, petroleum, or natural gas. Even nuclear power is dependent on the mining of uranium and has limits as to how long the supply will last.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4287300/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves

http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/uranium.html

But lets not project too far in the future and try to keep our minds on the problems at hand.

$10 a gallon gas in the future? What about $30 a gallon gas??

No doubt! All we have to do is look to history for the answer.

When I first took notice of gas prices in the early 70's gas was .22 cents a gallon.

No one would have thought that gas would take a 1360% rise in price in 3 1/2 decades.

In addition to cars and gasoline, tons of other products and industries are dependent on crude oil as a component for their products.

http://www.lmoga.com/refoutput.htm

I can see how life has degenerated in recent years and this is just the tip of the berg for things to come. I am not an alarmist as one lady accused me, but I would do humanity a disservice if I did not bring this topic up now an again for discussion.

See my post

"Your sanity is my sanity and my sanity is your sanity."

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=628.0

When you bring up population control the talk naturally turns to China and India.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m287..._27/ai_71563390

And population control alone is a controversial subject to discuss

..."when you get beyond the mythology and seriously examine the one-child policy, it is clear the policy is not viable even if one can stomach the horrendous human rights violations it entails."

From:

http://www.overpopulation.com/faq/countrie...e-child-policy/

But in reality, there is no such thing as 'opinionated' - 'provocative' 'controversial' subjects. The contemplative life finds it joy in discovering truth. And the truth does not set such limits on itself as being 'too controversial' to be true.

These are only subjective and prejudicial states of mind. Such 'mind blocks' may bother one, but do not bother another. As such, all problems related to 'controversial subjects' such as this are problems created in the mind...the mind of ego based, prejudicial man.

If you find yourself being distracted with such thoughts as 'too controversial' just ask yourself if the proposed controversy is true, false or I don't know?

That method may help you become truth based and not ego based. You will have made a 'choice divorced of need'...you wont 'need your ego' to support the truth...the truth will be able to stand on its own.

Any President would do doubt have little success in getting anything done with population control. We can hear the cries now...Communist!...Atheist!...Baby Killer....Hitler!!!!

So the best thing for the President to do would be to put it before the public every 2 or 3 years in a national election to get America's verdict on the subject and our country mindful of the issue.

Put America on record.

Then at least the President could say he tried, but the people of the US prefer to thumb their noses at the rest of the world and the US will do as they like.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_...oil-consumption

If anyone is against population control and has no other viable alternative to offer other than Communist!...Atheist!...Baby Killer....Hitler! - when they are asked what can be done to slow down global warming - slow down over consumption - slow down the destruction of the human race that hell bent on growing at an unsustainable pace - they should respond: (See footnote #2)

"I just don't care...that is someone else's problem not mine."

Now, I don't claim to have the magic bullet to fix all our woes. I'm just a simple philosopher not a scientist or genius. All I can do is to bring the problem to the forefront and ask that we all work in a healthier direction that the one we have been headed in. And when we can understand that all humans are interdependent and not independent of one another, we come to realize that we all share the same breath.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=8.0

Footnote #1:

Something to think about is coals dependence on crude. Our crude oil (41 years of reserves) will be depleted much sooner than our coal (155 years of reserves) This brings up certain problems of production and distribution. For instance, coal is delivered to power plants by rail. The trains are powered by diesel fuel, which is made from crude oil. Now, we may be able to resort back to old technology and start running coal fired steam locomotives to deliver the coal, but this will have a negative effect on the green house gas emissions. But even before the coal can be delivered it has to be mined and processed...and most of that mining is powered by crude as well.

http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/mcoal.htm

Footnote #2:

It seems global warming can't be fixed, it can only be slowed down...too many people on earth to fix it...to many demands...too many cravings...best we can do is to slow it down.

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker

Practical Philosopher

Edited by Vfr

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asian-ghosts
the only way to stop global warming is to replace all cars with bikes........which the fat, lazy world won't do

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Adalwolf

horses might work, too

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camlax
horses might work, too

Yea that is a great idea!

If every car owner in the US trades in a car for two horse that would mean we need....

243,023,485 registered vehicles x 2= 486,046,970 horses.

Now horses produce methane, Around 100 L a day. So that is 48,604,697,000 L of methane a day (This is just in the US too mind you).

That is 17,740,714,405,000 L (m3) of methane a year.....

And methane is a much more potent GHG.

This is the problem with solutions, most solutions, global warming people push. They are not very well though out.

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asian-ghosts
horses might work, too

nope horses dont work, they produce methane which absorbs more heat than co2.........

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Atheist God

We have the technology already to make transportation 100% clean. Hydrogen is the single best solution above all other alternatives and way cheaper for consumers as well.

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Michelle

Try googling 'hydrogen is not the answer', AtheistGod. There are some very informative links.

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1.618

we are finally coming to the end of the ice age and all people can do is complain or blame the planet warming on humans.

I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect something as large and complex as the earth to remain the same in perpetuity. :)

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camlax
We have the technology already to make transportation 100% clean. Hydrogen is the single best solution above all other alternatives and way cheaper for consumers as well.

Actually even according to Hansen, there is no known technology that could produce yields for energy comparable to what we need, To complicate things more our energy needs will have doubled by 2025.

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Actually even according to Hansen, there is no known technology that could produce yields for energy comparable to what we need, To complicate things more our energy needs will have doubled by 2025.

almost, because there is s Swedish engineer who seems to have found a way to make solar and wind energy more usable, by just using the excess energy produced to pump water back up a hill. The same water can be used to power a turbine in absence of wind and sun. And it is even more efficient than trying to accumulate energy in batteries.

In the Western world there is a energy saving potential of 30%. Ten percent could be saved by just turning off unused lights and unplugging electronics on standby. Energy saving techniques are far from being implemented.... there are many things you can do. There is no lack of opportunity, just a lack of will.

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Ghost It Notes

Unfortunately, this is the way we are going to go. No matter what people do now, it is going to fall. Seriously... it was meant to be. Sad but true.

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asian-ghosts
We have the technology already to make transportation 100% clean. Hydrogen is the single best solution above all other alternatives and way cheaper for consumers as well.

Hydrogen - NOT the answer, i forgot why it's not but if it was then we would have plenty today. I think it's because they wont make a hydrogen refuel system or something like that. i watched a video......................There is new energy resources that are being studied like Air and WAter

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girty1600
Why don't we do anything about global warming...because we can't.

Then why do I try so hard?

To do anything substantive would cause a financial and population backlash of unimaginable proportions.

If you mean population reduction then I am all for it!

And what we could do, even with drastic measures, would not cure global warming but only slow things down.

Slow is better, right?

In addition, there is no one global entity to control all the green house gas emitters. China an India plan on adding more dirty coal burning electric plants to feed their burgeoning economies.

And there won't be. Ever.

Yes, we have Kyoto, but...the largest polluters of green house gasses have exempted themselves from it.

Surprised?

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camlax
Yes, we have Kyoto, but...the largest polluters of green house gasses have exempted themselves from it.

Kyoto is a joke and will/has not accomplished anything. I have no idea why people hump it so.

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joc

The only way to stop global warming is a good old fashion Nuclear Holocaust.

Anyone on the left up for that?

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asian-ghosts
The only way to stop global warming is a good old fashion Nuclear Holocaust.

Anyone on the left up for that?

Nuclear Holocaust? let me in lol

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Wookietim

I will admit that I didn't read your whole post. But somethign that leaps out at me is the fallacy of people who claim that nothing can be done. Perhaps we are going at it in the wrong way - perhaps stopping Global Warming isn't the anwer. Perhaps finding ways to cope with it might be more possible - modifying crops to use less or more water, hotter temps. Retrofitting houses and building new ones with better insulation (To keep the heat/cold out). Working with communities to changes their industries (Specifically with ones that revolve around a certain form of tourism that might be in jeopardy of going away - the Alps skiing industry, for example).

In other words, trying to stop it may not be possible. We may need to simply find a way to accomodate it with the least interruptions.

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asian-ghosts
I will admit that I didn't read your whole post. But somethign that leaps out at me is the fallacy of people who claim that nothing can be done. Perhaps we are going at it in the wrong way - perhaps stopping Global Warming isn't the anwer. Perhaps finding ways to cope with it might be more possible - modifying crops to use less or more water, hotter temps. Retrofitting houses and building new ones with better insulation (To keep the heat/cold out). Working with communities to changes their industries (Specifically with ones that revolve around a certain form of tourism that might be in jeopardy of going away - the Alps skiing industry, for example).

In other words, trying to stop it may not be possible. We may need to simply find a way to accomodate it with the least interruptions.

building glass domes over cities to reduce UV radiation

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keithisco
Kyoto is a joke and will/has not accomplished anything. I have no idea why people hump it so.

Kyoto is a joke only for the wonderful U.S. of A.!! The European Union has adopted the protocols and guess what? The economy here is thriving...I look at the dollar and think "what a bunch of Jerks", just watch your exports in the next few years go down the pan, as countries in Europe refuse to buy from from "dirty" US companies.... Will you think Kyoto is a joke then? In Europe we watch Canada getting richer, and the US getting poorer... sorry, but that's the way of commercial life.... do we worry? No, because if the US decide to bomb Europe with nukes then they will get the same back!!

Time to change your diapers Camlax, Europe doesnt give a Rats a**e for the US in this area. The old phrase "when America gets a sniffle, then Europe gets a cold" just aint true anymore. Most nations are dumping US Dollars for the Euro, why else do you think that the US Dollar is in free-fall?

Live with it... no more will any European nation follow your Governments lead!!! You have become the sick man in this world.

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Kyoto is a joke and will/has not accomplished anything. I have no idea why people hump it so.

Maybe because some countries, while still away from their goals, have actually achieved a reduction after Kyoto?

Binding goals are needed, and if at the end only half is achieved that is more than nothing. Without binding goals nothing is going to get done.

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leadbelly
Kyoto is a joke only for the wonderful U.S. of A.!! The European Union has adopted the protocols and guess what? The economy here is thriving...I look at the dollar and think "what a bunch of Jerks", just watch your exports in the next few years go down the pan, as countries in Europe refuse to buy from from "dirty" US companies.... Will you think Kyoto is a joke then? In Europe we watch Canada getting richer, and the US getting poorer... sorry, but that's the way of commercial life.... do we worry? No, because if the US decide to bomb Europe with nukes then they will get the same back!!

Time to change your diapers Camlax, Europe doesnt give a Rats a**e for the US in this area. The old phrase "when America gets a sniffle, then Europe gets a cold" just aint true anymore. Most nations are dumping US Dollars for the Euro, why else do you think that the US Dollar is in free-fall?

Live with it... no more will any European nation follow your Governments lead!!! You have become the sick man in this world.

What U.S. companies are "dirty"? Honestly, I have to think this is just an attempt at a pointless p***ing contest brought on by a latenight flurry of homones...

Can you say WWI? WWII? What historical underpinning started that crap??? Which led to the U.S. becoming world economic leader. For which we have your noxious history to thank...thank you.

And, BTW, your central banks, and asian central banks, and speculators, all short the HE*L out of american dollars- for sheer unmitigated greed....thank you. Not to mention the general shuffle that goes on with currencies, anyway. We take it on the chin, because we buy large amounts of the world's goods. Is that a contributing cause to our credit concerns? Sure.

We buy as much of your goods as you purchase from us. It's called balance of trade. Are you advocating trade wars? No one can stop greed, but we can make competition and co-operation civil and more positive. I wonder how much of this U.S. bashing is prudence, and not just self-interest, Kieth.

And, don't forget, the U.S. leads the world in pollution research. We have spent a lot on climate related pollution research. We also co-operate (at least that goes on behind the scenes, no one is stupid about pollution control).

BTW, how has Europe's economy decreased it's demand for electricity or transport fuel? I honestly suspect efficiency only goes so far, before the fire is stoked once again. Maybe it is France's use of nuclear energy that tilts the energy scales, some way. Of course, there is not enough uranium to go around for the whole world to use for very long.

The way I see it, the world is a safer place with international co-operation. Just because we have had a thriving truck industry (to help pay all those retirement benefits to decent hard working people), again, we get bashed by a socialist leaning Europe? Trucks made good money for american auto companies. It was either that, or start some other industry and bring in foreign workers to pay help for retiree benefits, through social security expansion. Sound familiar?

And, Canada is getting rich off oil and gas. So, what's the beef? They aren't complaining, because we are buying their timber, grains, and gas and oil.

And, please don't joke about the U.S. bombing Europe. It ain't even funny. Take care.

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Michelle

No offense to anyone, but there are people here that I thought would research a little more before saying that the US is doing little for the environment without signing the KYOTO. The only reason that I would venture to guess is because it is Bush that didn't sign.

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Wookietim
No offense to anyone, but there are people here that I thought would research a little more before saying that the US is doing little for the environment without signing the KYOTO. The only reason that I would venture to guess is because it is Bush that didn't sign.

I don't doubt that there are many people in the US that are working to curb global warming. There are also many corporations that are doing the same. But the government is steadfastly refusing even to believe that it is happening, much less work towards doing something about it...

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camlax
Kyoto is a joke only for the wonderful U.S. of A.!! The European Union has adopted the protocols and guess what? The economy here is thriving...I look at the dollar and think "what a bunch of Jerks", just watch your exports in the next few years go down the pan, as countries in Europe refuse to buy from from "dirty" US companies.... Will you think Kyoto is a joke then? In Europe we watch Canada getting richer, and the US getting poorer... sorry, but that's the way of commercial life.... do we worry? No, because if the US decide to bomb Europe with nukes then they will get the same back!!

Time to change your diapers Camlax, Europe doesnt give a Rats a**e for the US in this area. The old phrase "when America gets a sniffle, then Europe gets a cold" just aint true anymore. Most nations are dumping US Dollars for the Euro, why else do you think that the US Dollar is in free-fall?

Live with it... no more will any European nation follow your Governments lead!!! You have become the sick man in this world.

Oh yeah, Cause we Americans are such dirty b******* who love to pollute. Never mind leading the world in renewable energy, were sick I tell you, SICK!

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