Tiwanaku

[Dark_Lord]

I had the opportunity to visit Tiwanaku (also spelled Tiahuanaco or Tiahuanacu), now on the Bolivian shore of Lake Titicaca, last August during an extensive trip to South America and the Andean region.

Of course Tiwanaku truly startles the imagination. I wish therefore to discuss some of the mysteries which involve ancient Tiwanaku:

- First of all, Tiwanaku is a mystery because of its age. While archaeologist date oldest pottery found on site to the I millennium BC (Pucarà, and Chiripa cultures), archaeoastronomical dating of the Kalasasaya complex by Arthur Posnansky and German astronomer Rolf Muller revealed a date much older than those currently assumed. According to Posnansky, Tiwanaku was founded more than 11450 years BC, also upon the remains of still older cities, which might date to the very dawn of human civilization.

- At Tiwanaku we find some of the most advanced ancient stone cutting technology worldwide, showing an accuracy even greater than that of the ancient egyptian pyramid builders. Also, the general layout of the site mirrors very precise mathematical relations, including the sacred ratios of Pi and Phi.

- The great pyramid of Tiwanaku, called the Akapana, is nearly the size of the great pyramid of Khufu, and might actually hold chambers in its interior. Ongoing excavations revealed a complex network of tunnels and passageways very similar to the shafts of egyptian pyramids.

- Tiwanaku, altough lying more than 20 Km from the shores of Lake Titicaca at an altitude of nearly 4000 meters used to be a port of truly gigantic proportions.

- Some of the stones at Puma Punku, the largest Tiwanaku temple discovered so far, weigh up to 460 tons and are amongst the largest ever quarried. Also, the amount of work required to move such enormous monoliths over distances in the tens of kilometers up to an altitude of 4000 meters above sea level is nearly unbelievable, and would pose a challenge even to modern lifting technology.

- Bronze clamps weighting up to a ton have been found at Tiwanaku, while bronze was unknown to the Incas just a few centuries later than the presumed fall of Tiwanaku.

- The whole city was appearently torn apart by a gigantic cataclysm, which left the city in ruins.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Dark_Lord

[kerkinana walsky]

link to these astounding facts ?

while we're waiting heres what wiki says

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwanaku

Tiwanaku (Spanish spellings: Tiahuanaco and Tiahuanacu) is an important Pre-Columbian archaeological site in Bolivia. Tiwanaku is recognized by Andean scholars as one of the most important precursors to the Inca Empire, flourishing as the ritual and administrative capital of a major state power for approximately five hundred years. The ruins of the 12 000 year ancient city (the oldest city in the world discovered to this date)are near the south-eastern shore of Lake Titicaca, about 72 km (44 miles) west of La Paz, Bolivia - 16°33′17″S, 68°40′24″W.

Some have hypothesized that Tiwanaku's modern name is related to the Aymara term "taypikala", meaning "stone in the center". However, the name by which Tiwanaku was known to its inhabitants has been lost, as the people of Tiwanaku had no written language.

Area of the Middle HorizonThe site of Tiwanaku was founded in approximately 200 BC as a small agriculturally-based village, with a number of similar neighbors. The high altitude Titicaca Basin required the development of a distinctive farming technique known as "raised-field" agriculture, which are only found in today's South America as experimental, government-funded projects. In antiquity, they comprised a significant percentage of the agriculture in the region, along with irrigated fields, pasture, terraced fields and cocha (small lake) farming. Artificially raised planting mounds (known as "suka kollus" in the local Aymara language) are separated by canals filled with water. The canals supply moisture for growing crops, but they also absorb heat from solar radiation during the day. This heat is gradually emitted during the bitterly cold nights, providing thermal insulation. Over time, the canals also were used to farm edible fish, and the resulting canal sludge was dredged for fertilizer. The use of various agricultural techniques allowed local communities to grow and population to increase.

Though labor-intensive, suka kollus produce impressive yields. While traditional agriculture in the region typically yields 2.4 metric tons of potatoes per hectare, and modern agriculture (with artificial fertilizers and pesticides) yields about 14.5 metric tons per hectare, suka kollu agriculture yields an average of 21 tons per hectare.,[1]

Significantly, the experimental fields recreated in the 1980s by Kolata and Rivera[2] suffered only a 10% decrease in production following a 1988 freeze that killed 70-90% of the rest of the region's production. This kind of protection against killing frosts in an agrarian civilization is an invaluable asset. For these reasons, the importance of suka kollus cannot be overstated.

The community grew to urban proportions between AD 600 and AD 800, becoming an important regional power in the southern Andes. According to early estimates, at its maximum extent, the city covered approximately 5.0 square kilometers, and had as many as 40,000 inhabitants. However, satellite imaging was used recently to map the extent of fossilized suka kollus across the three primary valleys of Tiwanaku, arriving at population-carrying capacity estimates of anywhere between 285,000 and 1,482,000 people.[2]

More narrowly, the proposed population range is between 570,000 and 1,111,500. This is based on 1) 19,000 hectares of suka kollus discovered so far; 2) the Bolivian and Peruvian experimental staple tuber production rates of 21 and 10.65 metric tons per hectare respectively; 3) 533kg of tuber consumption per person per year; and 4) assumptions of 75% utilization and double cropping.[2]

Tiwanaku's unique art style is found in vast areas covering modern highland Bolivia, Peru and Argentina. It is difficult to tell, however, whether these areas were part of an empire in the political sense, under cultural and commercial influence, or independent trading partners.

Tiwanaku collapsed around AD 1000, possibly due to environmental reasons, from an invasion of new people from the south, a loss of faith in the Tiwanaku religion, or a combination of all three. The area around Tiwanaku was not abandoned, but the city fell into decay and its characteristic art style vanished.

Closeup of carved stone tenon-head embedded in wall of Tiwanaku's Semi-subterranean Temple

Anthropomorphic recipientTiwanaku architecture is characterized by large stones, weighing up to 200 tons, with stone cutting, squaring, dressing, and notching exceeding even the Inca in artisanship. The stones are set without mortar, so closely together that a razor blade cannot penetrate the seams. The stones are cut irregularly (unlike Egyptian square stone blocks), with each stone matched uniquely to its neighbors, possibly to resist lateral motion due to regional earthquakes. Supporting this notion is the use of elaborate "double-T" copper clamps to hold stones together in the critical drainage and irrigation tunnels.

The stone used to build Tiwanaku was quarried and then transported (without the aid of the wheel) 40km to the city and includes the largest cut stone block in the world weighing 200 tons. Although many large buildings were still intact when the Spanish first arrived, only three remain today, the Akapana (fortress), the Kalasaya (temple) and the Palace of the Ten Doors.

The Tiwanaku art style is distinctive, and, together with the related Huari style, defines the Middle Horizon of Andean prehistory. Both of these styles seem to have been heavily influenced by that of the earlier Pukara culture in the northern Titicaca Basin.

The name of the religion of Tiwanaku is unknown because they had no written language.

Their myths have been passed down to the Incas and the Spanish who in turn took that part of South America. They worshipped many gods, and one of the most important gods was Viracocha, the god of action, shaper of many worlds, and destroyer of many worlds. He created people, with two servants, on a great piece of rock. Then he drew sections on the rock and sent his servants to name the tribes in those areas. In Tiwanaku he created the people out of rock and brought life to them through the earth. The Tiwanaku believed that Viracocha created giants to move the massive stones that comprise much of their archeology, but then grew unhappy with the giants and created a flood to destroy them.

Detailed study of Tiwanaku began on a small scale in the mid-nineteenth century. In the 1860s, Ephraim George Squier visited the ruins and later published maps and sketches completed during his visit. German geologist Alphons Stübel spent nine days in Tiwanaku in 1876, creating a map of the site based on careful measurements. He also made sketches and created paper impressions of carvings and other architectural features. A book containing major photographic documentation was published in 1892 by engineer B. von Grumbkow. With commentary by archaeologist Max Uhle, this was the first in-depth scientific account of the ruins.

In the 1960s, an attempt was made at restoring the site, but by very uninformed parties. The walls pictured to the right, of the Kalasasaya, are almost all reconstruction. The original stones making up the Kalasasaya would have resembled a more "Stonehenge" like style, spaced evenly apart and standing straight up. Unfortunately, the parties that made the reconstructions decided to make the Kalasasaya be enclosed by a wall that they themselves built. Ironically enough, the reconstruction itself is actually much poorer quality stoneworking than the people of Tiwanaku were capable of. It should also be noted that the Gateway of the Sun, that now stands in the Kalasasaya, is not in its original location, having been moved sometime earlier from its original location, which is unknown.

Modern, academically-sound archaeological excavations were performed from 1978 through the 1990s by University of Chicago anthropologist Alan Kolata and his Bolivian counterpart, Oswaldo Rivera. Among their contributions are the rediscovery of the suka kollus, accurate dating of the civilization's growth and influence, and evidence for a drought-based collapse.

Today Tiwanaku is a UNESCO world heritage site, and is administered by the Bolivian government.

Robotic exploration of a newly-discovered tunnel in the Akapana pyramid, June 13, 2006Recently, the Department of Archaeology of Bolivia (DINAR) has been conducting excavations on the Akapana pyramid. The PAPA project, or Proyecto Arqueologico Pumapunku-Akapana (Pumapunku-Akapana Archaeological Project), run by the University of Pennsylvania, has been excavating in the area surrounding the pyramid for the past few years, and also conducting Ground Penetrating Radar surveys of the area. An archaeological field school, offered every summer through Harvard's Summer School Program, offers archaeology students the chance to learn to excavate in the residential area outside the monumental core. The program directors are Dr. Gary Urton of Harvard, expert in quipu, and Dr. Alexei Vranich of the University of Pennsylvania.

Edited November 1, 2007 by kerkinana walsky

[Dark_Lord]

You can find a good coverage of the ancient Tiwanaku site at the following link:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm

Also, I posted several pictures and a full review of the Tiwanaku site on www.archeologia.com (unfortunately, italian text only). Nevertheless, you can find some of my pictures here: http://www.archeologia.com/forum/archeolog...e-tiwanaku.html

By the way, I think Wikipedia is wrong in at least a few statements:

- First of all, the true age of Tiwanaku has not yet been determined. Consequently, the age of 12,000 years should be considered as a mere hypothesis.

- The population of Tiwanaku has been largely exaggerated, while it is still dubious whether Tiwanaku actually was a city or a major sacred ceremonial center (or, of course, both things at a time).

- The largest stone in Tiwanaku weights an exstimated 460 tons, while the great Baalbeck megaliths are even larger, weighting approximately 1750 tons.

- It is uncertain whether Tiwanaku did possess a written language or not. While it is usually assumed it didn't, a number of findings might actually prove the contrary.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Dark_Lord

[kerkinana walsky]

You can find a good coverage of the ancient Tiwanaku site at the following link:

<a href="http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm" target="_blank">http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm</a>

Also, I posted several pictures and a full review of the Tiwanaku site on www.archeologia.com (unfortunately, italian text only). Nevertheless, you can find some of my pictures here: <a href="http://www.archeologia.com/forum/archeolog...e-tiwanaku.html" target="_blank">http://www.archeologia.com/forum/archeolog...e-tiwanaku.html</a>

By the way, I think Wikipedia is wrong in at least a few statements:

- First of all, the true age of Tiwanaku has not yet been determined. Consequently, the age of 12,000 years should be considered as a mere hypothesis.

- The population of Tiwanaku has been largely exaggerated, while it is still dubious whether Tiwanaku actually was a city or a major sacred ceremonial center (or, of course, both things at a time).

- The largest stone in Tiwanaku weights an exstimated 460 tons, while the great Baalbeck megaliths are even larger, weighting approximately 1750 tons.

- It is uncertain whether Tiwanaku did possess a written language or not. While it is usually assumed it didn't, a number of findings might actually prove the contrary.

the true age of Tiwanaku has been determined, hundreds of radio carbon dates have been collected from the site, not one of them is older than 2000 years. you are creating a straw man argument by claiming it hasn't been determined. It has by professional archaeologists with professional equipment, not amateurs like Posnansky almost 100 years ago who worked before Radio carbon dating was heard of nor Rolf Mueller who's results were obtained and deliberately falsified as propoganda for the Nazi party who were claiming it had been built by ancient Aryans.

world mysteries is as about a reliable source as crystal links and the person who wrote that article (Martin Gray) is a known pseudohistorian. I'm surprised that theyre not quoting Sitchin, Hancock and the Abominable Snowman as a reliable source as well

the largest stone at Tiwanaku is known as the Bennet Monolith. It was moved and stood in a park in La Paz for a number of years before being moved back again. It didn't weigh anyway near 460 tons

http://www.labyrinthina.com/tiwanaku2.htm

theres been so much crap written about this site I'm not surprised you're having trouble understanding the truth. so far its been claimed it was built by, Atlanteans, Lemurians, Aryans, Aliens, just about anybody but local indigenous people, who incidentally all the artwork its covered with culturally originates with. And they weren't living in the area at the time you are claiming because the earliest South American civilisation anywhere on that continent is found in the Supe Valley, Norte Chico culture in Peru and dates from 3000bce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_civilization

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and World Mysteries isn't even close

[Harte]

- First of all, Tiwanaku is a mystery because of its age. While archaeologist date oldest pottery found on site to the I millennium BC (Pucarà, and Chiripa cultures), archaeoastronomical dating of the Kalasasaya complex by Arthur Posnansky and German astronomer Rolf Muller revealed a date much older than those currently assumed. According to Posnansky, Tiwanaku was founded more than 11450 years BC, also upon the remains of still older cities, which might date to the very dawn of human civilization.

Posnasky's study has been ignored by Archaeology because it's invalid.

The site was severely disturbed by vandals and stone miners long before Posnasky got there. In fact, one of the points he stipulates as relevant to his study has no structure on it at all. He postulates that a structure may have been there in the past. Not because of any remains, but because the point is in alignment with some astronomical feature!

Talk about circular logic!

Read this:

For example, the disturbance of Tiwanaku, "Tiahuanaco," was described in the politically incorrect and less than polite language of his day by Verrill (1929) when he wrote:

"Through the ages that had then passed since Tiahuanaco had become a veritable "Place of the Dead" and, through the centuries that have passed since the days of Incan dominion, this most ancient American city has been desecrated, looted, literally torn to bits. Choice portions of its magnificent sculptured stone work have been carried off by the natives and used to build their own miserable huts, and there is scarcely an Indian dwelling within miles of the ruins that does not possess a doorstep, a lintel, or some portion of its walls formed of fragments of Tiahuanaco. Even the rough, narrow, filthy streets of the villages are, in places, roughly paved with pieces of carved or worked stones filched from the ruins. The little Spanish church at the modern village of Tiahuanaco is almost entirely constructed of portions of the ancient town, and flanking the entrance are the heads and shoulders of two colossal stone images that were ruthlessly knocked from the bodies of Tiahuanaco's stone gods. The Indian farmers have surrounded their stony thin soiled fields with walls constructed of stonework from the ruins, and vandals, collectors, and curio seekers have done their part. But the greatest damage of all, the most ruthless and inexcusable destruction, was caused by the railway whose tracks run directly through the center of the ancient city. Thousands of tons of stone, idols, statues, monoliths, carved columns, magnificent doorways, immense slabs and priceless sculptures were broken up, crushed and used for ballasting the tracks."

Clearly, long before Posnansky (1943) studied Tiwanaku, it had been badly disturbed. He was studying a site severely damaged by stone mining, looting, and vandalism. As a result, even his pains-taking study of the site would have been badly skewed by the severe disturbance to this site. This is one reason why his dating of Tiwanaku has been ignored by archaeologists.

Snip

A real mystery about the Tiwanaku Site is that Posnansky (1943) clearly knew how badly trashed the Tiwanaku Site was when he mapped it. Yet, he has disregarded these obvious problems and tried to date the site using archaeoastronomical methods that he should have known would produce relatively

meaningless results. He simplistically assumes without any hard evidence that astronomical alignments were unaltered by the destruction that the Tiwanaku site has suffered. He also assumes without either the benefit of inscriptions or any ethnographic or other data that buildings were astronomically aligned to a high degree precision in specific directions.

It is like an archaeologist finding the base of the Louisiana State Capitol a thousand years from now and lacking any written record of it. Because it is aligned in an east-west direction, he /she assumes that it must have been aligned a high degree precision to some astronomical event and uses that assumption to date it. The result is "Garbage In, Garbage Out" regardless of how skillfully the surviving parts of the building have been mapped.

Source : Geologist Paul Heinrich

- Tiwanaku, altough lying more than 20 Km from the shores of Lake Titicaca at an altitude of nearly 4000 meters used to be a port of truly gigantic proportions.

This is based on the analysis made by Posnansky too. Apparently, he wasn't much of a geomorphologist:

The available research shows that Tiwanaku was never a port city on Lake Titicaca. Looking at available maps and geomorphic studies, it is quite clear that Posnansky (1943) was an inexperienced geomorphologist. His so-called shoreline appears to be nothing more than the valley wall of a river valley cut into the deposits of Lake Ballivan on which Tiwanaku lies. The plain of Lake Ballivan, except where cut out by younger fluvial valleys, extends from the modern Lake Titicaca shoreline eastward (up-valley) past Tiwanaku. The plain of Lake Ballivan finally ends at a small fragment of the older and higher lake plain of Lake Cabana at the easternmost tip of the valley. Within this valley, younger and lower lake plains are lacking (Lavenu 1981:Fig. 6, 1992:Fig. 4). The age of Lake Ballivan is undetermined, but it is at least over a 100,000 years old (Clapperton 1993).

I have also examined the "wharf" described by Posnansky (1943). So far, I find the same lack of evidence for it having been a "wharf" as for Tiwanaku having ever been a port. In my opinion, the claim that Tiwanaku was port with a wharf is nothing more than the wishful thinking by Posnansky (1943) for which proof is lacking. This claim has become part of the mythology surrounding Tiwanaku that various authors blindly repeat without evaluating the facts for themselves.

[NOTE: The actual lake port was at Iwawe which was connected to Tiwanaku by a land road (Browman 1981).]

Same source

- The whole city was appearently torn apart by a gigantic cataclysm, which left the city in ruins.

The cataclysm was vandals and stone miners. Nothing more than that.

Harte

[Dark_Lord]

the true age of Tiwanaku has been determined, hundreds of radio carbon dates have been collected from the site, not one of them is older than 2000 years. you are creating a straw man argument by claiming it hasn't been determined. It has by professional archaeologists with professional equipment, not amateurs like Posnansky almost 100 years ago who worked before Radio carbon dating was heard of nor Rolf Mueller who's results were obtained and deliberately falsified as propoganda for the Nazi party who were claiming it had been built by ancient Aryans.

First of all, thank you very much for your answer and comments.

Of course I know of radiocarbon dating at Tiwanaku. However, in the case of stone buildings, radiocarbon dating might not be as reliable a method as in other cases. Nevertheless, Posnansky's dating of the Kalasasaya has been recently re-examined by the DINAR (The bolivian authority in charge of excavations at Tiwanaku) in the person of his former president Oswaldo Rivera, who claimed Posnansky's measures could actually be correct. This is the reason why I say the age of Tiwanaku is still matter of great controversy. Also, Rivera claimed Tiwanaku actually rests upon the remains of still older cities (at least five different urban layers, according to Rivera).

The largest stone at Tiwanaku is known as the Bennet Monolith. It was moved and stood in a park in La Paz for a number of years before being moved back again. It didn't weigh anyway near 460 tons

<a href="http://www.labyrinthina.com/tiwanaku2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.labyrinthina.com/tiwanaku2.htm</a>

I think you are mistaken when you say the Bennett monolith to be the largest stone at Tiwanaku. While it is the largest free standing sculpture, the construction blocks used in the megalithic platform of Puma Punku are by far the largest on site, weighing an exstimate 200 to 460 tons.

theres been so much crap written about this site I'm not surprised you're having trouble understanding the truth. so far its been claimed it was built by, Atlanteans, Lemurians, Aryans, Aliens, just about anybody but local indigenous people, who incidentally all the artwork its covered with culturally originates with. And they weren't living in the area at the time you are claiming because the earliest South American civilisation anywhere on that continent is found in the Supe Valley, Norte Chico culture in Peru and dates from 3000bce.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral</a>

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_civilization" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte_Chico_civilization</a>

As for the ethnic origin of the ancient Tiwanaku people, it seems the Tiwanaku were not of Aymara descent (unlike present day indigenous people of the Titicaca region), but of amazonic origin. Also, Tiwanaku artwork closely resembles that of the peruvian culture of Chavin de Huantar, while Tiwanaku monumental architecture is nearly unparalleled in all of ancient South America.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Dark_Lord

[Dark_Lord]

Posnasky's study has been ignored by Archaeology because it's invalid.

The site was severely disturbed by vandals and stone miners long before Posnasky got there. In fact, one of the points he stipulates as relevant to his study has no structure on it at all. He postulates that a structure may have been there in the past. Not because of any remains, but because the point is in alignment with some astronomical feature!

Talk about circular logic!

The point in the archaeoastronomical dating of the Kalasasaya is made up of a series of standing stones or pillars very precisely alligned as to form a solar calendar. While the structure was actually damaged by vandals and stone miners, as you correctly point out, there is little doubt the general layout of the Kalasasaya temple was never truly affected, as you can easily conclude from drawings and pictures dating back to the early XX and mid XIX century. Also, the huge stone pillars, some more than 8 meters tall and weighing up to 46 tons, could have never been moved from their location by mere stone robbers (who instead dismantled all of the smaller stones), and have been standing in their original position up to now, with only one pillar missing.

Unlike Stonehenge, restoration works actually did very little, if no damage at all to the general layout of the site.

Read this:

Source : Geologist Paul Heinrich

This is based on the analysis made by Posnansky too. Apparently, he wasn't much of a geomorphologist:

Same source

The cataclysm was vandals and stone miners. Nothing more than that.

Harte

Thank you. Very interesting indeed.

Still, It is the only source stating Tiwanaku was never a port I know of. All other sources (including DINAR, Kolata, Vranich, clearly refer to a port located in the area of Puma Punku). Moreover, a wharf is clearly indicated on nearly every map of the site, and, to my knowledge, there is very little doubt a port actually existed there.

Moreover, it is clear some sort of cataclysm ruined all the main buildings, being otherwise nearly unexplainable the amount of destruction one can find there. It also seems reparation works where still going on when the city was suddenly abandoned, leaving most of the buildings unfinished.

[Bokonontheancient]

First of all, thank you very much for your answer and comments.

Of course I know of radiocarbon dating at Tiwanaku. However, in the case of stone buildings, radiocarbon dating might not be as reliable a method as in other cases. Nevertheless, Posnansky's dating of the Kalasasaya has been recently re-examined by the DINAR (The bolivian authority in charge of excavations at Tiwanaku) in the person of his former president Oswaldo Rivera, who claimed Posnansky's measures could actually be correct. This is the reason why I say the age of Tiwanaku is still matter of great controversy. Also, Rivera claimed Tiwanaku actually rests upon the remains of still older cities (at least five different urban layers, according to Rivera).

I think you are mistaken when you say the Bennett monolith to be the largest stone at Tiwanaku. While it is the largest free standing sculpture, the construction blocks used in the megalithic platform of Puma Punku are by far the largest on site, weighing an exstimate 200 to 460 tons.

As for the ethnic origin of the ancient Tiwanaku people, it seems the Tiwanaku were not of Aymara descent (unlike present day indigenous people of the Titicaca region), but of amazonic origin. Also, Tiwanaku artwork closely resembles that of the peruvian culture of Chavin de Huantar, while Tiwanaku monumental architecture is nearly unparalleled in all of ancient South America.

Radio Carbon dating is for Organic Material only. Please provide a link to this stone, I want to see all 200 - 460 tons of it.

- Regards, Bokonon

[Lycos]

I doubt it's older than the oldest known city which is Uruk in ancient mesopotamia

[Essan]

Moreover, it is clear some sort of cataclysm ruined all the main buildings, being otherwise nearly unexplainable the amount of destruction one can find there.

Earthquake? Which would also explain changes in the shoreline of Lake Titicaca. Although I'm unaware of any evidence for a port at Tiahuanaco - just because someone sees some stone structures and thinks they look like they might be a port doesn't actually prove that they are Easy way to check of course - quick, simple, soil sample would show conclusively if the lake shore had ever been where the supposed port is, and, indeed tell us exactly when.

[Dark_Lord]

Earthquake? Which would also explain changes in the shoreline of Lake Titicaca. Although I'm unaware of any evidence for a port at Tiahuanaco - just because someone sees some stone structures and thinks they look like they might be a port doesn't actually prove that they are Easy way to check of course - quick, simple, soil sample would show conclusively if the lake shore had ever been where the supposed port is, and, indeed tell us exactly when.

All the site appears covered in silt of clearly alluvial origin. In some points, the silt strata covering the buildings reach a thickness of several meters. The nearby Rio Tiwanaku seems a very unlikely answer as to the origins of the alluvial deposits covering the site (and also reaching up to the summit of the Akapana pyramid, about 14 meters above ground level).

Also, E. Kiss (Das Sonnentor von Tihuanacu) cites evidence of ancient shorelines near Tiwanaku (although this evidence has been much disputed by more recent investigations).

Furthermore, a number of ancient drainage conduits appearently discharges in the area once occupied by the ancient port, where signs left by water erosion are also evident.

That the level of lake Titicaca was never constant is also proven by the discovery of ancient pre-inca ruins under the surface of lake Titicaca, which got probably submerged as a consequence of a major earthquake or upheaval.

If Tiwanaku was never a port, then the transportation of the great stone megaliths would pose an even more compelling problem, since land transportation would have required an incredible amount of work over distances in the tens of kilometers and at an altitude of nearly 4000 meters above sea level.

As for the heaviest megaliths at Tiwanaku, different sources give different figures for the weight of the stones, ranging from 130 to 467 tons.

I think the difference is mainly due to the fact that the largest platforms are now broken into several pieces. Even if we consider a mere 130 tons, this does not however make things easier.

[SunDogDayze]

This is a very interesting thread. I have never really looked into Tiwanaku, but I think I will now.

Why is it so little known?

[Pax Unum]

Moreover, it is clear some sort of cataclysm ruined all the main buildings, being otherwise nearly unexplainable the amount of destruction one can find there.

Much of the architecture of the site is in a poor state of preservation, having been subjected to looting and amateur excavations attempting to locate valuables since shortly after Tiwanaku's fall. This destruction continued during the Spanish conquest and colonial period, and during 19th century and the early 20th century, and has included quarrying stone for building and railroad construction and target practice by military personnel.

source: Wiki

Edited November 2, 2007 by Pax Unum

[kerkinana walsky]

This is a very interesting thread. I have never really looked into Tiwanaku, but I think I will now.

Why is it so little known?

its very well known

certain sources claim its a mystery because they make more money if people think that

but its been surveyed, mapped, excavated and explained perfectly by science. Its just Pseudoscience that makes out it hasn't

[1.618]

its very well known

certain sources claim its a mystery because they make more money if people think that

but its been surveyed, mapped, excavated and explained perfectly by science. Its just Pseudoscience that makes out it hasn't

Do you have links to non pseudo-scientific surveys, maps, excavations and explainations please?

[SunDogDayze]

its very well known

certain sources claim its a mystery because they make more money if people think that

but its been surveyed, mapped, excavated and explained perfectly by science. Its just Pseudoscience that makes out it hasn't

Somehow I missed this one. I mean, I have heard of it, but never in the terms described here. I had only regarded it as another ancient site, nothing mysterious about it.

[Pax Unum]

This is a very interesting thread. I have never really looked into Tiwanaku, but I think I will now.

Why is it so little known?

try typing 'Tiwanaku survey' into a search engine, a great deal is known about Tiwanaku...

[Harte]

Somehow I missed this one. I mean, I have heard of it, but never in the terms described here. I had only regarded it as another ancient site, nothing mysterious about it.

SunDawg,

You regarded it correctly.

You seem to have good instincts.

Harte

[kerkinana walsky]

Do you have links to non pseudo-scientific surveys, maps, excavations and explainations please?

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0717-...ipt=sci_arttext

[Dark_Lord]

its very well known

certain sources claim its a mystery because they make more money if people think that

but its been surveyed, mapped, excavated and explained perfectly by science. Its just Pseudoscience that makes out it hasn't

I think radiocarbon dating to be rather unreliable in the case of Tiwanaku.

First of all, we have a very limited number of samples collected in different time periods and over an area as wide as 600 hectars. Also, radiocarbon dating contradicts both archaeoastronomical evidence and geological evidence, since most stones at Tiwanaku look very badly weathered, as if they had been exposed to the elements for many millennia before being buried under alluvial strata.

About archaeoastronomy at Tiwanaku, also see the following interview:

My work this season was geared toward confirming or disproving many of the celestial alignments attributed to Tiwanaku's monumental architecture, and I primarily focused on the semi-subterranean temple and the Kalasasaya. My preliminary conclusion is that a semi-subterranean temple built around 100 B.C. was oriented to stellar alignments, in particular the Southern Cross and Antares (or Korikala in Aymara), the brightest star of the Scorpio constellation.

The Kalasasaya, as has been identified by earlier archaeoastronomical work, does appear to have been a temple oriented to the movements of the sun. The architectural remains of the temple pinpoint the solstices, equinoxes, zenith, and nadir passages with astonishing accuracy. However, the most interesting alignment I recorded this season was that the pillars of the Kalasasaya's western balcony wall appear to mark a solar calendar based on the setting positions of the sun.

http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/research/E...aku/notes.shtml

Moreover, nowhere in the ancient world such an advanced stone cutting technology is found as in ancient Tiwanaku. I would say it's the most impressive and compelling example of ancient machining discovered so far, also superior to ancient egyptian pyramid building and granite sawing techniques.

At Tiwanaku we have examples of a modular architecture rarely paralleled even by modern machinery on a scale previously unseen in the ancient world, also showing perfectly circular drill holes measuring just a few millimeters in diameter.

It is definitely a mystery how such a high precision could have been achieved without iron tools and how the largest megaliths could have been moved over such long distances at an altitude of about 4000 meters above sea level.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Dark_Lord

[capeo]

I think radiocarbon dating to be rather unreliable in the case of Tiwanaku.

First of all, we have a very limited number of samples collected in different time periods and over an area as wide as 600 hectars. Also, radiocarbon dating contradicts both archaeoastronomical evidence and geological evidence, since most stones at Tiwanaku look very badly weathered, as if they had been exposed to the elements for many millennia before being buried under alluvial strata.

About archaeoastronomy at Tiwanaku, also see the following interview:

My work this season was geared toward confirming or disproving many of the celestial alignments attributed to Tiwanaku's monumental architecture, and I primarily focused on the semi-subterranean temple and the Kalasasaya. My preliminary conclusion is that a semi-subterranean temple built around 100 B.C. was oriented to stellar alignments, in particular the Southern Cross and Antares (or Korikala in Aymara), the brightest star of the Scorpio constellation.

The Kalasasaya, as has been identified by earlier archaeoastronomical work, does appear to have been a temple oriented to the movements of the sun. The architectural remains of the temple pinpoint the solstices, equinoxes, zenith, and nadir passages with astonishing accuracy. However, the most interesting alignment I recorded this season was that the pillars of the Kalasasaya's western balcony wall appear to mark a solar calendar based on the setting positions of the sun.

<a href="http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/research/E...aku/notes.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/research/E...aku/notes.shtml</a>

Moreover, nowhere in the ancient world such an advanced stone cutting technology is found as in ancient Tiwanaku. I would say it's the most impressive and compelling example of ancient machining discovered so far, also superior to ancient egyptian pyramid building and granite sawing techniques.

At Tiwanaku we have examples of a modular architecture rarely paralleled even by modern machinery on a scale previously unseen in the ancient world, also showing perfectly circular drill holes measuring just a few millimeters in diameter.

It is definitely a mystery how such a high precision could have been achieved without iron tools and how the largest megaliths could have been moved over such long distances at an altitude of about 4000 meters above sea level.

There is nothing at the UPenn site that you quote from that suggests anything you're purporting.

[jaylemurph]

I think radiocarbon dating to be rather unreliable in the case of Tiwanaku.

First of all, we have a very limited number of samples collected in different time periods and over an area as wide as 600 hectars. Also, radiocarbon dating contradicts both archaeoastronomical evidence and geological evidence, since most stones at Tiwanaku look very badly weathered, as if they had been exposed to the elements for many millennia before being buried under alluvial strata.

Two things: I am extremely skeptical about this entire archeaoastronomy thing at Tiwanaku, especially after Harte pointing out its circular logic, and most especially if it is contradicted by Caron-14 dating. But that's just me. Archaeoastronomy is at best speculation; carbon-14 dating is a relatively sophisticated, verifiable use of science.

And secondly -- when you say the rocks look weathered, is that your (trained?) opinion or is there something to back this up? I imagine that weathering is something that can be easily misconstrued by someone without significant training.

Moreover, nowhere in the ancient world such an advanced stone cutting technology is found as in ancient Tiwanaku. I would say it's the most impressive and compelling example of ancient machining discovered so far, also superior to ancient egyptian pyramid building and granite sawing techniques.

At Tiwanaku we have examples of a modular architecture rarely paralleled even by modern machinery on a scale previously unseen in the ancient world, also showing perfectly circular drill holes measuring just a few millimeters in diameter.

It is definitely a mystery how such a high precision could have been achieved without iron tools and how the largest megaliths could have been moved over such long distances at an altitude of about 4000 meters above sea level.

I think you're just underestimating what a lot of willing or unwilling slaves could do: to me there's nothing per se that mysterious about it. Inexplicable, no. Impressive, yes.

The problem with such deliberate mystifying, I think, is that it always comes with an agenda. It seems to me that Dark Lord is just a step away from needlessly positing some mythic, unknown, advanced civilasation to explain his mystifed version of Ti****u, that could do what he thinks the Amerindians couldn't.

Am I right?

--Jaylemurph

[kerkinana walsky]

It seems to me that Dark Lord is just a step away from needlessly positing some mythic, unknown, advanced civilasation to explain his mystifed version of Ti****u, that could do what he thinks the Amerindians couldn't.

Am I right?

--Jaylemurph

on everything except your spelling of Tiawanaku as Ti****u see the omission of the extra "a" turns it into the British equivalent of "Jerk" which is a bad bad word and not to be used on forums read by children so it sets off the "swear checker" thingamajig

either that or the New world Order is trying to erase the existence of the city from all records "a la" Back to the Future

or the space Aliens

or the Atlanteans

not the Aryans though they're well out of it now along with the lemurians, but I could be wrong,

[Dark_Lord]

Two things: I am extremely skeptical about this entire archeaoastronomy thing at Tiwanaku, especially after Harte pointing out its circular logic, and most especially if it is contradicted by Caron-14 dating. But that's just me. Archaeoastronomy is at best speculation; carbon-14 dating is a relatively sophisticated, verifiable use of science.

And secondly -- when you say the rocks look weathered, is that your (trained?) opinion or is there something to back this up? I imagine that weathering is something that can be easily misconstrued by someone without significant training.

I am not a trained geologist.

Nevertheless, I am only pointing out some serious geological sampling should be carried out at Tiwanaku in order to prove for how long the megaliths have been exposed to weathering agents.

I think you're just underestimating what a lot of willing or unwilling slaves could do: to me there's nothing per se that mysterious about it. Inexplicable, no. Impressive, yes.

The problem with such deliberate mystifying, I think, is that it always comes with an agenda. It seems to me that Dark Lord is just a step away from needlessly positing some mythic, unknown, advanced civilasation to explain his mystifed version of Ti****u, that could do what he thinks the Amerindians couldn't.

Am I right?

--Jaylemurph

As far as I can remember, I have never mentioned any mythic, unknown civilization. Actually, I am only assuming the Tiwanaku culture deserves a place as one of the most advanced civilizations in the ancient world, even surpassing ancient Egypt and Babylon.

I am also pointing out the absolute inadequacy of current archaeological explanations as for the development and complexity of the Tiwanaku culture.

I also tend to adopt a skeptycal point of view about alternative archaeology in general. Nevertheless, I must admit Tiwanaku by far surpasses any speculation or hypothesis.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Dark_Lord

[Dark_Lord]

on everything except your spelling of Tiawanaku as Ti****u see the omission of the extra "a" turns it into the British equivalent of "Jerk" which is a bad bad word and not to be used on forums read by children so it sets off the "swear checker" thingamajig

either that or the New world Order is trying to erase the existence of the city from all records "a la" Back to the Future

or the space Aliens

or the Atlanteans

not the Aryans though they're well out of it now along with the lemurians, but I could be wrong,

I assume you have actually been to Tiwanaku and seen the actual site. Please, correct me if I am wrong.