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Demons - NOT REAL?


She-ra

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I won't stand here and point a bony finger of blame, like some desperate democrat before the all the bodies are even recovered. But I will say that I have never ridiculed anyone in here for their religious beliefs or the lack of them. And in addition, I have never shoved my belief system down the throats of those that I honestly believe will spend eternity burning. They know who they are and have heard it all before. I will reiterate, that I believe demons under the regime of lucifer himself, are mans greatest enemy. There has never been a greater cause for men of all nations and colors and ethnic origins and religious backgrounds to unite and fight against. This is the common enemy of ALL men. Especially the ones that do not believe in their existence.

Most of you know my background and beliefs, and I try to get along with everyone that doesn't blatantly enjoy insulting others. But frankly, you should consider (if you believe in God) that some if not many of these people that frequent this room are under such influences. And it stands to reason, (dependant on the wide reaching scope and the actual active population of this forum) that at least one of our members is indeed overcome and host to one or more of these devils. Statistically, it is quite probable (once again depending on the numbers here in UM).

I know that others have noticed how quickly these debates escalate into trouble, in this one particular subject. And my friends, that is just how they like it. :unsure: ~Jackal

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I agree, and your last sentence makes perfect sense to me. Took me time to see that, but I do now..Thanks..JN

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KZ, real satanists DO believe in God. However, the church of satan founded by anton levey believes that God and the devil are mythological creatures and do not exist. They believe in the climb of superior races, much like Hitlers regime, and it doesn't matter who or how many you have to step on to get there. You know, "the good guys finish last" mentality? I am not surprised by the poll. Nowadays, people tend to make up their own religions. I myself, do not frequent the church much, as I believe it is not necessary for the Bible to be interpreted. I do not believe in doctrine and dogma. I believe in God. I hate to sound like I am preaching. I only wish to convey my thoughts as concise and accurately as I conceive them. ~Jackal

You got a point there. :D

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nevermind. :D

It's about time you got here. lol.

Just to address your query....

Much of my research is NOT confined to only the Bible. I do not feel I would be well armed did I not consider the ideas of other religious authors of the day. Much of the sandscrpits today originate with the Essenes and the dead Sea Scrolls. I take into account also, catholicism and their authorized canons. The books of Apocrypha, and the accounts of Cain, and Enoch are all books well worth investigating. There are many many more in the libraries of conscientious warriors of the text. I have only a few. But I find comfort in knowing that I am viewing these issues from all sides possible, before I make an INFORMED conclusion.

I'm glad you brought that up.

To address your last statement...the reason demons spend 100% of their time attacking mankind, is because of their deepseated hatred for that which God chose over them. He loves us more than them, and when we die, He says we will be even over the angels (also His creation). Soooo...they hate our gates basically. No other reason. And they are at large, and free to influence our lives and reep whatever havoc they can muster within certain guidelines, until the return of the Messiah. This is how I understand it. ~Jackal

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I agree, and your last sentence makes perfect sense to me. Took me time to see that, but I do now..Thanks..JN

;) Answer the curious...block the fascicious....and smile and pat the heads of the ignorant. It does no good to loose the dogs of war on field mice. Smile, stay strong, and maintain your dignity in the face of onslaught. It's only the internet. :D ~Jackal

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*Peeks head in*

ASleep prolly :D

It's the "beloved" part you should concern yourself with. BaHahahaaa!

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I am concerned everytime I login. I fear the wrath of those who oppose me, believers are my kryptonite...:P

Damn smallville on the brain....

Honestly, Im not a skeptic when it comes to Demons as some may call them...I think it is a label, just as everything else in the paranormal. I do think we use the term demons too loosely around here. That is what I disagree on. One minute we go from Orbs are everything to Demons taking over the orb debate. Why the sudden rise in Demons? If everything negative in the world was due to Demons, we would be in far worse shape than what we are, IMO.

Every negative thought, every negative action, every negative emotion that comes from man can not be due to some demonic force of some kind. We all have emotions, some stronger than others...but this is due to human feelings, not sinister forces.

If hit, do we not cry

If kissed, do we not love

if wronged, do we not get angry

That is sorta like on TV having an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other. The devil is telling you to do something negative, while the angel is trying to tell you to do something positive.

Wish I actually seen those...get me out of a lot of jams lol

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I am concerned everytime I login. I fear the wrath of those who oppose me, believers are my kryptonite...:P

Damn smallville on the brain....

Honestly, Im not a skeptic when it comes to Demons as some may call them...I think it is a label, just as everything else in the paranormal. I do think we use the term demons too loosely around here. That is what I disagree on. One minute we go from Orbs are everything to Demons taking over the orb debate. Why the sudden rise in Demons? If everything negative in the world was due to Demons, we would be in far worse shape than what we are, IMO.

Every negative thought, every negative action, every negative emotion that comes from man can not be due to some demonic force of some kind. We all have emotions, some stronger than others...but this is due to human feelings, not sinister forces.

If hit, do we not cry

If kissed, do we not love

if wronged, do we not get angry

That is sorta like on TV having an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other. The devil is telling you to do something negative, while the angel is trying to tell you to do something positive.

Wish I actually seen those...get me out of a lot of jams lol

I certainly understand your point about the frequency of demonic discussions here in UM. I was sick of the Orb thing in the 80's. I don't believe, however, that anyone I know attributed all the evils of men to demons. I just posted that men are inherently evil. And if men were wiped from the planet, evil would still exist here. Actually, I seldom blame demons for mans inhumanity to man. It is too easily construed as an excuse, rather than a defense. But I do think they are responsible for some pretty massive and epic crimes commited by usually one person. Hitler for example. Nero for another. But men are just bad, without any help from the dark side. ~Jackal

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If you're satanist then everyone, including yourself, says that you don't beleive in god, but if they worship the devil they must also beleive in god

Actually, a Satanist doesn't believe in neither God nor the Devil. A Satanist, to put it shortly, worships himself/herself.

Devil worshipers are the ones actively worshiping the Devil as an existing deity ;)

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Actually, a Satanist doesn't believe in neither God nor the Devil. A Satanist, to put it shortly, worships himself/herself.

Devil worshipers are the ones actively worshiping the Devil as an existing deity ;)

Oh. I thought being a Satanist meant you worship Satan. Dang.

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I am concerned everytime I login. I fear the wrath of those who oppose me, believers are my kryptonite...:P

Damn smallville on the brain....

Honestly, Im not a skeptic when it comes to Demons as some may call them...I think it is a label, just as everything else in the paranormal. I do think we use the term demons too loosely around here. That is what I disagree on. One minute we go from Orbs are everything to Demons taking over the orb debate. Why the sudden rise in Demons? If everything negative in the world was due to Demons, we would be in far worse shape than what we are, IMO.

I agree, there is to much talking about demons, personally I do belive in them, but everything evil that happens around us are the work of the devil? hmm no.

But for some people, better be sure than sorry!

Edited by Lux Felix
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I agree, and your last sentence makes perfect sense to me. Took me time to see that, but I do now..Thanks..JN

I agree on that, also because less people talk about them, less chances people who are really haunted have to seek help (and to be belived).

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Demons and the devil are real. I saw them and i know about them, the only thing you are able to do about it is to pray to God thru Jesus for protection. Nothing else help Believe me I had been there and do that....

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Jody,

Good and Evil are human concepts and do not exist without us to make them into our reality. Even then they do not exist outside ourselves as some 'external force'. We see bad things happen to people/things and sometimes we can't explain what has happened or why, apart from to assign some 'extra-natural' force to it. We see 'good' people suffer and think "If they suffer it must be something causing them to suffer, and if they are good this thing that is causing the suffering must be evil".

Nothing is required to make anything suffer except the natural process of living. Nothing has to be 'good' to suffer, just as nothing has to be 'evil' to cause suffering of another thing. Is a snake evil when it causes its prey to suffer as the poison takes effect?

Demons only exist in the minds of those who see 'good and evil' as things separate from ourselves. In my experience most of those who do believe in such things have religious tendencies as well. This belief in religion supports the other belief in supernatural Good and Evil.

Edited by Leonardo
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Oh. I thought being a Satanist meant you worship Satan. Dang.

The original satanists did worship Satan as an actual entity. Modern satanists don't believe in divine/supernatural creatures. So a person worshiping Satan as an actual deity today would most correctly be labeled a devil worshiper ;)

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Satanist would best be described as secular materialists.

Quite correct. The LaVeyan idea of satanism is best described as a hodge-podge of secularism, materialism, egotism and a few references to occultism and occult rituals thrown in for good measure. The Satanic Bible is a slightly entertaining read, but nothing that should be taken too seriously.

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I want to make perfectly clear that I am not here to change anyone's mind, I am not trying to demean anyone else's beliefs. I am going to first explain why it is hard for me to accept that demons are a real entity in the sense of being a spirit with a distictive form, and such.

I was taught at a young age, even though my family was somewhat religious, that the bible cannot be taken literally, because the god who inspired men to write could not convey his every meaning to men who were inferior to him. Men are to blame for the incoherency some people find in the bible. That being said, it seemed natural to me that whenever the bible is talking about demons, it is meant in the sense of personal problems that are causing someone to suffer. Being the actual problem, not an entity behind the scenes causing those problems.

Like when people talk about drug addiction as a 'demon.' I believe that is how the bible means it. It is a completely human flaw that causes that human to suffer. I believe the bible is metaphorical, and that the picture we get when we hear demon of a little red devil with hooves and a goatee is product of another human trait, which is not taking responsibility. "Oh, no, it wasn't because I am human and wired to make mistakes, it is because I left myself open to a demon attack."

Now, JN, before you think I am attacking you, I am not. I do not think you are crazy, or stupid, or anything like that. You have your reasons to believe as you do, and obviously whatever has happened to you was enough to convince you that demons are separate entities from human nature.

But I have a few questions, for you or for anyone else who is a believer in fundamental demons.

1. JN said

These things can lay dormant for years, and just surface out of the blue, normally during grief, or illness, that is when we are at our weakest point, and normally strike at night, because that is when we are the most vulnerable.

Does that not also sound like the description for some psychological disorders? And I am not insinuating even psychosis or anything, but what about PTSD and Depression? That being said, do you believe that those disorders are caused by demons, or that the demons are caused by the disorder?

2. If it is inherently humans that are the target of demons, why are there animals that suffer? Why do animals feel pain and why do some animals display emotions, and why are some animals abused and tortured? If a dog is being abused by a human, who is the demon's target? The dog because of the suffering and pain he is feeling? Or the human because he is doing something considered evil? Does the demon feed off the angry abusive emotions of the human, or the desperation, confusion, and despair of the dog?

3. If god already knows how many souls are going to be saved in the days of judgment, why would demons be trying to change that by 'winning' souls from god? Better yet, with the power god has, why wouldn't he just destroy the 'evil' beings that turned on him in the first place? I understand that some may answer 'because there has to be an opposition to good' but that doesn't seem right, because there was not always evil beings. At one time, it was just god and his followers, heavenly and human. Why would god give the demons the ability to live forever, even though they are the reason why humans can be evil, but the humans, who are so easily influenced by demons and close to powerless against them, get punished by either going to hell or just ceasing to exist. That never fit for me.

4. I understand demons are smart and cunning and can hide anywhere and fool humans so easily. But doesn't that also sound like it could be said so that humans feel powerless against them? Couldn't that have been implied somewhere down the line, in the past, when some religious leaders were struggling to keep oppression over the people? "I know you might doubt demons, but thats what they want you to do. If you don't believe in them, it's because they have already gotten to you. You have never seen one because why would it waste it's time on someone who is already theirs?'

That to me sounds like the classic 'They said you would say that" ruse, a preemptive, preventative ploy to keep people from doubting. A human trait. I could tell my friend to go retrieve something from someone, and then tell them it's because that object was originally mine and that someone stole it. Then I could tell my friend that the thief would of course say that they didn't steal it from me. When my friend confronts the thief, the thief says "But I bought this! I didn't steal it from her!" my friend would say "Of course, she said you would say that." So no matter what the "thief" says, he already looks guilty because of my preemptive move.

Thats a very simplistic example, but I hope my point came across.

Can someone please respond to these questions, and I promise this is not baiting. I honestly want to hear someone who might be able to make me understand why I should believe in demons.

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I want to make perfectly clear that I am not here to change anyone's mind, I am not trying to demean anyone else's beliefs. I am going to first explain why it is hard for me to accept that demons are a real entity in the sense of being a spirit with a distictive form, and such.

I was taught at a young age, even though my family was somewhat religious, that the bible cannot be taken literally, because the god who inspired men to write could not convey his every meaning to men who were inferior to him. Men are to blame for the incoherency some people find in the bible. That being said, it seemed natural to me that whenever the bible is talking about demons, it is meant in the sense of personal problems that are causing someone to suffer. Being the actual problem, not an entity behind the scenes causing those problems.

Like when people talk about drug addiction as a 'demon.' I believe that is how the bible means it. It is a completely human flaw that causes that human to suffer. I believe the bible is metaphorical, and that the picture we get when we hear demon of a little red devil with hooves and a goatee is product of another human trait, which is not taking responsibility. "Oh, no, it wasn't because I am human and wired to make mistakes, it is because I left myself open to a demon attack."

Now, JN, before you think I am attacking you, I am not. I do not think you are crazy, or stupid, or anything like that. You have your reasons to believe as you do, and obviously whatever has happened to you was enough to convince you that demons are separate entities from human nature.

But I have a few questions, for you or for anyone else who is a believer in fundamental demons.

1. JN said

Does that not also sound like the description for some psychological disorders? And I am not insinuating even psychosis or anything, but what about PTSD and Depression? That being said, do you believe that those disorders are caused by demons, or that the demons are caused by the disorder?

2. If it is inherently humans that are the target of demons, why are there animals that suffer? Why do animals feel pain and why do some animals display emotions, and why are some animals abused and tortured? If a dog is being abused by a human, who is the demon's target? The dog because of the suffering and pain he is feeling? Or the human because he is doing something considered evil? Does the demon feed off the angry abusive emotions of the human, or the desperation, confusion, and despair of the dog?

3. If god already knows how many souls are going to be saved in the days of judgment, why would demons be trying to change that by 'winning' souls from god? Better yet, with the power god has, why wouldn't he just destroy the 'evil' beings that turned on him in the first place? I understand that some may answer 'because there has to be an opposition to good' but that doesn't seem right, because there was not always evil beings. At one time, it was just god and his followers, heavenly and human. Why would god give the demons the ability to live forever, even though they are the reason why humans can be evil, but the humans, who are so easily influenced by demons and close to powerless against them, get punished by either going to hell or just ceasing to exist. That never fit for me.

4. I understand demons are smart and cunning and can hide anywhere and fool humans so easily. But doesn't that also sound like it could be said so that humans feel powerless against them? Couldn't that have been implied somewhere down the line, in the past, when some religious leaders were struggling to keep oppression over the people? "I know you might doubt demons, but thats what they want you to do. If you don't believe in them, it's because they have already gotten to you. You have never seen one because why would it waste it's time on someone who is already theirs?'

That to me sounds like the classic 'They said you would say that" ruse, a preemptive, preventative ploy to keep people from doubting. A human trait. I could tell my friend to go retrieve something from someone, and then tell them it's because that object was originally mine and that someone stole it. Then I could tell my friend that the thief would of course say that they didn't steal it from me. When my friend confronts the thief, the thief says "But I bought this! I didn't steal it from her!" my friend would say "Of course, she said you would say that." So no matter what the "thief" says, he already looks guilty because of my preemptive move.

Thats a very simplistic example, but I hope my point came across.

Can someone please respond to these questions, and I promise this is not baiting. I honestly want to hear someone who might be able to make me understand why I should believe in demons.

Nice post and I hope people do take the time to answer.

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The Satanic Bible is a slightly entertaining read, but nothing that should be taken too seriously.

Ahem. It seems to make a lot more sense than the christian bible.

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Nice post and I hope people do take the time to answer.

Agreed . some great questions there sundog that ive often thought about, especially the one about PTSD and other medical conditions such as this and there affects and wether our religious beliefs or lack thereof influence how we percieve the symptoms and also the one about the bible being metaphorical . I've often thought if there was a hell as such that it would be more of a self torment rather than anyone else punishing us or judging us .

blessings SS79 x x x.

Edited by spiritual_soul79
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I want to make perfectly clear that I am not here to change anyone's mind, I am not trying to demean anyone else's beliefs. I am going to first explain why it is hard for me to accept that demons are a real entity in the sense of being a spirit with a distictive form, and such.

I was taught at a young age, even though my family was somewhat religious, that the bible cannot be taken literally, because the god who inspired men to write could not convey his every meaning to men who were inferior to him. Men are to blame for the incoherency some people find in the bible. That being said, it seemed natural to me that whenever the bible is talking about demons, it is meant in the sense of personal problems that are causing someone to suffer. Being the actual problem, not an entity behind the scenes causing those problems.

Like when people talk about drug addiction as a 'demon.' I believe that is how the bible means it. It is a completely human flaw that causes that human to suffer. I believe the bible is metaphorical, and that the picture we get when we hear demon of a little red devil with hooves and a goatee is product of another human trait, which is not taking responsibility. "Oh, no, it wasn't because I am human and wired to make mistakes, it is because I left myself open to a demon attack."

Now, JN, before you think I am attacking you, I am not. I do not think you are crazy, or stupid, or anything like that. You have your reasons to believe as you do, and obviously whatever has happened to you was enough to convince you that demons are separate entities from human nature.

But I have a few questions, for you or for anyone else who is a believer in fundamental demons.

1. JN said

Does that not also sound like the description for some psychological disorders? And I am not insinuating even psychosis or anything, but what about PTSD and Depression? That being said, do you believe that those disorders are caused by demons, or that the demons are caused by the disorder?

2. If it is inherently humans that are the target of demons, why are there animals that suffer? Why do animals feel pain and why do some animals display emotions, and why are some animals abused and tortured? If a dog is being abused by a human, who is the demon's target? The dog because of the suffering and pain he is feeling? Or the human because he is doing something considered evil? Does the demon feed off the angry abusive emotions of the human, or the desperation, confusion, and despair of the dog?

3. If god already knows how many souls are going to be saved in the days of judgment, why would demons be trying to change that by 'winning' souls from god? Better yet, with the power god has, why wouldn't he just destroy the 'evil' beings that turned on him in the first place? I understand that some may answer 'because there has to be an opposition to good' but that doesn't seem right, because there was not always evil beings. At one time, it was just god and his followers, heavenly and human. Why would god give the demons the ability to live forever, even though they are the reason why humans can be evil, but the humans, who are so easily influenced by demons and close to powerless against them, get punished by either going to hell or just ceasing to exist. That never fit for me.

4. I understand demons are smart and cunning and can hide anywhere and fool humans so easily. But doesn't that also sound like it could be said so that humans feel powerless against them? Couldn't that have been implied somewhere down the line, in the past, when some religious leaders were struggling to keep oppression over the people? "I know you might doubt demons, but thats what they want you to do. If you don't believe in them, it's because they have already gotten to you. You have never seen one because why would it waste it's time on someone who is already theirs?'

That to me sounds like the classic 'They said you would say that" ruse, a preemptive, preventative ploy to keep people from doubting. A human trait. I could tell my friend to go retrieve something from someone, and then tell them it's because that object was originally mine and that someone stole it. Then I could tell my friend that the thief would of course say that they didn't steal it from me. When my friend confronts the thief, the thief says "But I bought this! I didn't steal it from her!" my friend would say "Of course, she said you would say that." So no matter what the "thief" says, he already looks guilty because of my preemptive move.

Thats a very simplistic example, but I hope my point came across.

Can someone please respond to these questions, and I promise this is not baiting. I honestly want to hear someone who might be able to make me understand why I should believe in demons.

Good post... I just think demons are nagative spirits lived or not lived on the earth plane...

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