Cercea Posted January 18, 2004 #1 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Personally, I do not agree with it. Innocent people have been executed. criminals say if they had have thought of the death penalty, they would have made sure they killed any witnesses. I don't think it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 18, 2004 #2 Share Posted January 18, 2004 I still believe that, at the end of the day, there are certain things that human beings don't do...human beings do not needlessly kill a person in cold blood...and quite frankly, when you do that, you no longer have the right to be considered a human being. I consider the death penalty an alternative to putting people in prison who will, quite frankly, never be rehabilitated...however, obviously the criminal system isn't perfect, so I think there would need to be certain standards set to make sure that no mistakes were made...my usual theory is that, if the jury return a unanimous verdict, then it can be considered proven beyond any doubt that the person has commited these crimes, and the death penalty may be issued (obviously, I'm talking in cases like murder and so on, not everyday crimes ) I think it would really need to be up to the judge's discretion whether he thought the person was capable of rehabilitation...perhaps a specialist physcologist could even be consulted on the matter (heck, their fee would be a damn sight cheaper than paying to support the guy in prison for life). However, look at it this way...if the death penalty was enforced, do you not think it would act as a very firm deterant? On the whole though, I'm all for vigillantes going down into subways and killing muggers ala Death Wish, but oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Posted January 18, 2004 #3 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Yeah vigilantes ROCK! *gives seraphina a potato sack* you gotta supply your own doorknobs >_>;; However giving the death penalty is not a suitable punishment. In the end he/she is still getting away with it, because death is a release. A more suitable punishment is thus: Blind him/her, Deafen him/her, Paralyse him, feed the bugger/buggeress through a tube, the person in question will only have their mind for company, and this will be a very lonely existance, imagine spending thirty years not being able to see hear or move with only your thoughts as company? To me this is more unbearable than spending 3 hours with des 'o' connor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 18, 2004 #4 Share Posted January 18, 2004 I'm not interesting in punishment for scum, so much as ensuring that they'll never be in a position to victimise someone else. I believe in protecting the innocent far more than spending time and money trying to rehabilitate criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosswarrior Posted January 18, 2004 #5 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Criminal who have shown that they are capable of crimes such as rape, murder, kiddnapping... are no longer worthy of mercy of any kind. In that cause the nice, Christian, Biblical thing to do ; would be to either stone them or impale them, or burn them to death. But personally I think that if the person is caught in the act they should just have their existance ended right then and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffybunny Posted January 18, 2004 #6 Share Posted January 18, 2004 This is a tough one for me. Over the years I have gone back and forth on the issue several times... I think that some criminals are such evil and horrible human beings that they really don't deserve to be counted amongst the human population. Cold blooded Killers, rapists, and child molesters need to be dealt with in a permenant fashion. It allows some small degree of closure for the victims family. It also sends a message that such crimes will not be tolerated in our society. Unfortunately, there are two small problems that occur when enforcing the death penalty: 1. Mistakes happen in our court system in a frightening regularity...The wrong people are convicted in a higher percentage of cases that most would like to beleive. The death penalty is quite permamanent, allowing for no chance to take back any mistakes on the states' behalf. 2. What kind of message are we sending when we punish our citizens for killing by killing them? Because the court does it, does that some how make it OK? Prosecutors have a stunning amount of power in our court system, they decide who to charge and what charges to file against someone. The prosecutors are just people who make mistakes like everyone else, but they are responsible for putting citizens in jail for long periods of time and in extreme cases the try for the death penalty. In serious crimes where the death penalty is considered, the pressure from the community and victims families for a conviction is extreme. Does the pressure that the prosecutor feels to convict someone for a crime ever cloud their judgement? Do they sometimes want to give closure to a grieving family that they empathise with so strongly that it clouds their thought process? Trials are supposed to protect the innocent from being falsely convicted, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes people are convicted on circumstancial evidence alone. How many people have had their cases overturned when DNA testing was introduced into their appeals cases? thousands...How many innocent people are still serving time in jail because of an overzealous prosecutor? Because of the above reason, I think that the death penalty is not a good idea. It is just too permanent and irrevocable to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted January 18, 2004 #7 Share Posted January 18, 2004 spot on fluffy bunny agree with everything you say m8 Seraphina i think your wrong about the death penalty being a deterent. I mean places where they have it still have plenty of murders and rape etc. The thing is if someone is evil they're evil and the threat of the death penalty won't stop them or even make them think twice. These people would just do it anyway. I do however believe corporal punishment should be brought back, the kind of crimes that are committed an punishable by this could be detered as that type of criminal is more likely to think twice. Like fluffybunny said death is final, theres no goin back, theres no re-trials and for this reason and this reason alone there is at this time no civilised argument FOR the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted January 18, 2004 #8 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Also seraphina Ok if theres been a unanimous verdict returned then they can be punished for a crime, but as fluffy said theres an alarmingly large volume of cases that's verdict has been overturned. How exactly do you rectify a mistake like that 10 mins after you've put 20 000 volts through someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nxt2Hvn Posted January 18, 2004 #9 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Oh.. you guys probably already know my answer to the question.... I 100% agree with the death penalty. I would even like to see it enforced a little more. I don't see any reason to put someone on "death row"... I say when they are convicted and sentenced to death ... they should be executed asap... like within a month's time instead of waiting years on "death row" - costing millions of dollars to keep them in prison until their date of execution. (doesn't make sense to me). I also believe an eye for an eye.... if someone steals.. they should lose a finger... it happens again... lose another... again.. the whole hand....etc.... I know I sound harsh... but oh well!! As far as innocent poeple that have been wrongly executed... I don't think that number is too high. (okay... let the flogging begin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted January 18, 2004 #10 Share Posted January 18, 2004 As far as innocent poeple that have been wrongly executed... I don't think that number is too high. I can believe you just said that Nxt2hvn. The key words still being "innocent" & "executed". Im totally shocked that anyone could just explain away an innocent person being EXECUTED!!! so flipantly. Surely 1 mistake is FAR too many. These people are human beings not animals. They have families and feelings. What if you were wrongly accused of an act? then senteced to death knowing you were innocent. I think your opinion would change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aslan Posted January 18, 2004 #11 Share Posted January 18, 2004 I 100% agree with the death penalty. I would even like to see it enforced a little more...if someone steals.. they should lose a finger... it happens again... lose another... again.. the whole hand....etc....(okay... let the flogging begin) I take it then, Nxt2Hvn, that the phrase 'turn the other cheek' doesn't hold much water for you? As far as innocent poeple that have been wrongly executed... I don't think that number is too high. I find this statement very interesting, if not to say somewhat paradoxical, considering the opinion I have formed of you as a person who rejoices in their Christianity. Are you suggesting that the number of innocent people put to death can be safely ignored because the majority were guilty? Where's the Christianity in that? Personally I think the number of innocent people who have been executed is probably quite spectacular - for most of the reasons Fluffy mentions, and to finish your little diatribe with... I also believe an eye for an eye.... if someone steals.. they should lose a finger... it happens again... lose another... again.. the whole hand....etc.... I know I sound harsh... but oh well!! ...just astounds me. (Nice little smiley at the end there, by the way. I'm always giving involuntary cheeky winks when the subject of judicial murder comes up, too.) I'm not really trying to get at you but I find your position on this bewildering. Explain to me, for instance, the connection between the central message of Jesus and cutting off somebody's finger. I can't compete with you in the religious stakes, obviously, but my impression is that the death penalty is something that Jesus would be firmly against. Or have I got that wrong? Is he all for lopping off people limbs and executing as many innocent people as you feel like just as long as the number of guilty people is significantly higher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undead Posted January 18, 2004 #12 Share Posted January 18, 2004 This is why there should be an I.Q test for people who vote for stuff. "still believe that, at the end of the day, there are certain things that human beings don't do...human beings do not needlessly kill a person in cold blood...and quite frankly, when you do that, you no longer have the right to be considered a human being." It's opinions like this that annoy me. This is why Maddox is right, Opinions can be wrong. If the person doesn't know it's wrong to kill then it's other peoples fault. I read some stuff from interviews with children who killed a person and they all said that their parents told them it was ok to kill. Such as their parents telling them that it's Ok for the goverment to kill "Evil" people. "I'm not interesting in punishment for scum, so much as ensuring that they'll never be in a position to victimise someone else. I believe in protecting the innocent far more than spending time and money trying to rehabilitate criminals." You have a stupid ignorant "Black & White" opinion. It is impossible to just divide people into either good or evil. "Criminal who have shown that they are capable of crimes such as rape, murder, kiddnapping... are no longer worthy of mercy of any kind. In that cause the nice, Christian, Biblical thing to do ; would be to either stone them or impale them, or burn them to death. But personally I think that if the person is caught in the act they should just have their existance ended right then and there." Are you being sarcastic? I hope you are. Eye for an Eye justice doesn't work because it isn't justice. It's revenge and revenge isn't justice, Revenge is what five year olds and animals do because they don't know any different. Rehabilitation is a the way forward, Killing people because they kill is the way backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffybunny Posted January 18, 2004 #13 Share Posted January 18, 2004 I 100% agree with the death penalty. I would even like to see it enforced a little more. I seriousely hope that you are kidding. Please tell me that you are doing this in order to start a flame war... I can't imagine that someone as flippin religous about everything as you are could possibly say: As far as innocent poeple that have been wrongly executed... I don't think that number is too high. because if you are serious in the post you just made then you are coming across just like the militant muslims that are stoning and putting people to death in the middle east...but I am sure that isn't you...not the forgiving christian that you claim to be. judge not; lest ye be judged??? Ring a bell??? (doesn't make sense to me). If your quote was not in jest, I would assume that not much does... I don't see any reason to put someone on "death row"... I say when they are convicted and sentenced to death ... they should be executed asap... like within a month's time instead of waiting years on "death row" - costing millions of dollars to keep them in prison until their date of execution. Yes, lets put all of them to death instantly. Right in the court room maybe after the sentance is passed, it would be great. Pay per view executions! When it comes to trivial things like the appeals process that is guaranteed under the law, we can just wait until after the person is dead. I am sure that the nearly 30 percent of convictions(6.59 million inmates in the US alone; 3700+ on death row) that are overturned by the appeals process doesn't mean much in your book... I am sure we could just post any overturned convictions on the persons gravestones to show that they weren't guilty after all...It would be a comfort to their family to know that they were innocent... I also believe an eye for an eye.... if someone steals.. they should lose a finger... it happens again... lose another... again.. the whole hand....etc.... Does that mean that you should have your brai... oh nevermind to easy of a target on that one... You scare me nxt2hvn, you really do... to think that you get to vote...wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted January 18, 2004 #14 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Perhaps if we put as much energy into our children as we do into debating topics like the death penalty , we would save an awful lot more money on prisons ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arashi Ravenblade Posted January 18, 2004 #15 Share Posted January 18, 2004 I agree 100% with it, i believe if you needlessly murdur someone you need to die, the same goe for other crimes...i believe in an eye for an eye punishment system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted January 19, 2004 #16 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Undead my friend...perhaps you're needlessly looking for some reason to shout at someone, so I'll try and be patient...if you want to pick out choice bits of my post where I was making it clear I consider criminals scum, and the excuse of 'being victimised by circumstance' a somewhat weak defence for cold blooded murder...fair enough, but allow me to underline some of the other points I made For a start, I mentioned that I believe the death penalty should only be enforced for the most extreme of crimes...but also that it should only be in place if the person in question can be considered beyond rehabilitation. I mentioned the use of psychology experts, I mentioned nothing less than a unanimous verdict, and I fully believe that the system as it stands has way too many holes to enforce the death penalty in an efficient manner.... There is a Scotsman in the US right now on Death Row, who is going to be executed despite the fact that the only key witness in his trial has been proven to have lied in their statement...but nothing is going to be done about it, because under the current US system, only new evidence will be considered...and a changed statement doesn't qualify, even if it would save an innocent man's life. The system does need adjusting, there's no doubt about that...however, it doesn't change my belief that defending the safety of the innocent, that granting humanitarian rights to people who deliberately deny those rights to other people...I quite firmly do believe in an eye for an eye, and I don't believe that the very victims of criminals should then have to pay for their upkeep for life. Now, if you disagree with my "stupid ignorant "Black & White" opinion", then feel free...however, before making accusations of narrow mindedness, perhaps you should filter out some of the open insults to people who's opinions are different from your own, hmm? If the person doesn't know it's wrong to kill then it's other peoples fault. Two things...one - far too many of the worst events of our race have occured through people endlessly passing the blame. We're sentient beings, and we have a responsibility for our own actions, whatever those may be...however, to address your point, yes, some people have mental conditions where the ideas of right and wrong simply don't exist... ...However, I'm not talking about people with mental conditions, who don't know what they're doing, and who can recieve medical treatment...I'm talking about people who not only know the difference between right and wrong, but who consciously choose to disregard it. For people like that, I believe that ensuring they never kill again, and protecting people from them, is more important then spending thousands of dollars a year on a hopeless rehabilitation program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted January 19, 2004 #17 Share Posted January 19, 2004 I agree . The system has many holes in it and you have pointed out one of the holes I despise the most . honestly ... if they find a witness lied then by basic logic that means many peices of evidence were probobly staged and set up as well . Our genius judicial branch apperantly cant see a frame / cover up possibility even when it hits them in the head . As for capital punishment , I would only use it when absolutely neccesary . Such as a case in which the criminal can be psychologically proven beyond repair like what sera said , and when it is proven that if the criminal escapes he/she will most likely kill again . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KayEl Posted January 19, 2004 #18 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Reminds me of a Star Trek the Next Generation episode (I could only bare the first couple of seasons, because afterwards, lame plots and the way the cast sleepwalked through the sludge...ugh!!!!). Some of you probably have seen it. The Enterprise had shore leave on a planet where there dwelt these tall blond perfect human-like beings called the Edo. Like the Deltans, they have sex at the drop of a hat. Hmmmmm.... However, there is a little known law (to outsiders that it) that any infractions, no matter how trivial (like don't walk on the grass), is unpunishable by death. It is enforced in a randomly determined section from day to day. Since nobody knew which sector had been chosen, and nobody wanted to risk death, everybody BEHAVED!!! A nice law, I'd say! But the Edos didn't have that much laws to begin with anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaNgO_gIrL_hErE Posted January 19, 2004 #19 Share Posted January 19, 2004 I was just discussing this subject with a friend of mine yesterday. We both agreed that the only time the death penalty should be enforced is when a person is guilty beyond any doubt, this is when the person willingly admits his crime or when it is proven (100%) by means of DNA etc. Also, that person has to be guilty of a serious crime such as murder and rape and not less serious crimes such as theft. I'm sure many people consider theft a serious crime, well it is...BUT it is not serious enough for a person to lose his/her life. Afterall, the things he/she stole can be replaced because they are material things, therefore not that important. Whereas murder and rape have irreversible damage...loss of life and mental trauma for the victim. These crimes i believe are commited by purely evil people that don't deserve to live, therefore if they are 100% guilty then they should be punished. In this case I am for the death penalty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted January 19, 2004 #20 Share Posted January 19, 2004 *does not ever watch star trek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nxt2Hvn Posted January 19, 2004 #21 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Guys... Guys.... (pick your jaws up off the floor) ... Yes I do 100% believe in the death penalty... and my religious views have nothing to do with this... well for the most part... further more read this ..... The Death Penalty - Acceptable to Major Faiths- Abolitionists have claimed that the fifth commandment states, "thou shall not kill". This is in error - the actual translation is "thou shall not murder". Murder, according to Webster's dictionary is: "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Virtually all religious scholars agree that the correctly translated commandment "Thou shalt not murder" is a prohibition against individual cases of murder. There is no biblical prohibition against the government imposition of the death penalty in deserving cases. Indeed, the government imposition of capital punishment is required for deliberate murder. " . . . pronouncements about divine behavior (in the Hebrew Bible) correlated in the judicial context to attitudes toward death as a proper punishment. Quite clearly, the New Testament carries on the earlier mentality." As Jesus described in the Sermon on the Mount, "Obedience will be rewarded with life; disobedience will be punished with destruction. A God who rewards with life and punishes with death is One whose laws provide for death as a judicial punishment." Pretty much ... if you don't believe the bible and believe in God the way I do.. I guess you wouldn't understand this anyway! (here's another smiley for you) (oh have two) And I see I got a lot of flack from this quote As far as innocent poeple that have been wrongly executed... I don't think that number is too high. My Bad.... I actually posted that wrong.... I meant I don't know how many people have been wrongly executed... (I will have to research)... But I dont' think it is that many?... I didn't mean it the way it sounds... sure I feel remorse for people that are wrongly put to death for a crime that they did not commit... and if this is a bigger problem than I have first thought... then it needs to be addressed and worked on.... but I still think that the death penalty is indeed needed and I back it 100%. (and yes... if my brother murdered someone... then I believe that he should be executed just like the next guy... <I decided to go ahead and answer that one before it was asked>....) Two Bible Verses for you: Exodus 21:23-25 23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. Leviticus 24:19-21 19 "If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21 "Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nxt2Hvn Posted January 19, 2004 #22 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Fluffy... One more thing....... Does that mean that you should have your brai... oh nevermind to easy of a target on that one... I refuse to get defensive on this little quote of yours... if posting insults like this makes you feel your opinion has more merrit.... I hope it helps you in whatever way you need! You scare me nxt2hvn, you really do... to think that you get to vote...wow. Don't let me scare you .... well that is unless you plan on murdering someone!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted January 19, 2004 #23 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Exodus 21:23-25 23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. Leviticus 24:19-21 19 "If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21 "Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death. Too clear things up , these are parts from the old testament that occured Before jesus was crucified and died for all sins . the new rules are - if someone wants to sew you and take your cloak , give him your robe as well . let he who has no sin cast the first stone . It changed because of the crucifiction , the old testament is really nothing more then theololgy and referance . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nxt2Hvn Posted January 19, 2004 #24 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Yes Xenojjin... I know this... You are referring to "being under the Law".. the Old Testament ... and "being under the Blood" .. the New Testament. Yes things did change after the crusifixtion...But I believe that some "Laws" from the Old Testament still stand.... I don't believe that a person should take the law into his own hands and kill (execute) someone for killing a family member or loved one..... that would be revenge.....and I know the Lord said "Vengance is Mine"..... But I believe that a government body (court systems.. etc.) has the right to prove someone is guilty of murder and then execute them by penalty of death. I really am not trying to turn this into a religious debate... I was just replying to some of the posts that were questioning my Christianity... verses my belief in the Death Penalty. The post in the begininning of this thread asked if we believe in the Death Penalty... and I will say it again... YES.. I 100% back the Death Penatly! Sorry that my beliefs have once again stirred things up.....But that has become some what of the norm around here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosswarrior Posted January 19, 2004 #25 Share Posted January 19, 2004 So the Ten Commandments are useless except as mere suggestions? Or are they still valid? And as for the episode where Jesus said let him who is guiltless cast the first stone; he was not condoning the letting off of a guilty person, but rather an unjust trial. For you see according to the Law both the man and the woman were to be tried, but they did not bring the man before Jesus; even though they had "caught her in the very act of adultery." It was an unjust trial ment only to trap Jesus. And Neither did Jesus let the woman go, because in order to condemn a person to death there had to be at least two witnesses; and there was only Jesus and the woman left. As for the Old Testament being invalid let me quoye Jesus. "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come but to fulfill. For verily I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law till all be fulfilled." Matt. 5:17-18. There were times in the New Testament that God specifically told through the Disciples that certain hanges were to be made to the doctrine; such as the changing of the food laws for the third time in Bible history. Or that it was no longer necessary to worship at the Temple. As for what the merciful New Testament says about punishment "But if you do evil be afraid; for he (the authority) bears not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to exacute wrath upon him that does evil." Rom. 13:4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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