For the glory of God

[__Kratos__]

Critics say the brand of literalist religion Richard Dawkins condemns is limited to a small minority of believers -- but in fact it's all too common

Gazing down from the 40th floor of a lower Manhattan skyscraper, Richard Dawkins shakes his head. "What a symbol," he growls.

In the evening drizzle, the city is a jungle of glitz and twinkling lights but Dawkins' attention is fixed on a flood-lit crater directly below us. It is Ground Zero, the footprint of the twin towers, still barren six years after the atrocity that made the world gasp. At the bottom of the vast hole, backhoes scrape into the night.

What does this symbolize, I ask? "Religious bigotry," he answers crisply. Not a twisted version of Islam. Not Islam as a whole. No, for the Oxford professor, biologist, renowned science writer, and author of the notorious bestseller The God Delusion, the void below is what religion itself hath wrought.

"The people who did this terrible thing were sincere, deeply religious, believed they were right, believed they were doing the will of their god, firmly believed they were going straight to heaven for doing what they thought of as a wonderful deed," Dawkins says. "They had just one thing wrong with them. They believed. They had faith. And it was their faith that drove them to it."

More of the article here: Link

---------------------------------------------------------------

No normal decent person should be able to accept the horrors of religion from 'all powerful beings' with a sane mind. Or maybe it's just that they're truely evil and thrive on it? The twisted morality from what should be at least a base line of morals in todays world is seemly non-existent to religion. I mean, how else to you explain the deeds of gods and their followers while the masses continue to worship? Surely they are connected and in full agreement with what their religion is and what it has and will commit by their worshipping.

[TheKnight]

No normal decent person should be able to accept the horrors of religion from 'all powerful beings' with a sane mind. Or maybe it's just that they're truely evil and thrive on it? The twisted morality from what should be at least a base line of morals in todays world is seemly non-existent to religion. I mean, how else to you explain the deeds of gods and their followers while the masses continue to worship? Surely they are connected and in full agreement with what their religion is and what it has and will commit by their worshipping.

*playing Devil's Advocate*

Who is to say that what the terrorists did was wrong? Countries commit genocide all the time against other countries. I highly doubt that the terrorists sole motivation for their attack was religious,,.I think they were being patrioits to their countries, their Theocratic Muslim countries no doubt, but their countries none the less. I see nothing wrong with their attacks because its war. They declared war, and in war there are casulties. They suffer civilian casulties ALL the time, do we think about that before we rampage and destroy their countries? Not at all. It has only a little bit to do with religion.

[DogsHead]

Thanks for that article Kratos, I had not come across this new "miracle" at the site of WTC. Frankly I am stunned at the fatuous nature of those proclaiming that finding two bits of steel joined together (in the rubble of a building that was constructed from, wait for it, bits of steel joined together), could be called a miracle! I am trying to be restrained, but in front of my computer, I am beating the sides of my head with impotant rage. How can one group of people claim this as a reflection of "the glory of god" when the other group of people were almost certainly crying out the EXACT SAME WORDS as their fuel laden instruments of gods wrath slammed into the buildings? To the exact same god, too!! I mean, WTF is the world coming to? Where has rational thought gone? Why aren't more people in this day and age looking at this act of barbarism (attack on the WTC) carried out in the name of god, and moving AWAY from belief systems that allow this thinking? But nooooo. thousands are flocking to see this "miracle" every day!

I don't mean to offend any singular person, but if Christianty and Islam had a bodily representation, I'd kick them in the nuts.

[__Kratos__]

*playing Devil's Advocate*

Who is to say that what the terrorists did was wrong? Countries commit genocide all the time against other countries. I highly doubt that the terrorists sole motivation for their attack was religious,,.I think they were being patrioits to their countries, their Theocratic Muslim countries no doubt, but their countries none the less. I see nothing wrong with their attacks because its war. They declared war, and in war there are casulties. They suffer civilian casulties ALL the time, do we think about that before we rampage and destroy their countries? Not at all. It has only a little bit to do with religion.

Yet, wars are not a pretty thing and should be avoided. Any war in the name of a god is an even more stupid war because there is no gods. When war is to be waged, it should be a justified postition based on defence from threats or an attack already on it's country. What those scumbags did was niether of those and for their god they killed thousands of innocent men, women and children for a warmongering religion.

Thanks for that article Kratos, I had not come across this new "miracle" at the site of WTC. Frankly I am stunned at the fatuous nature of those proclaiming that finding two bits of steel joined together (in the rubble of a building that was constructed from, wait for it, bits of steel joined together), could be called a miracle! I am trying to be restrained, but in front of my computer, I am beating the sides of my head with impotant rage. How can one group of people claim this as a reflection of "the glory of god" when the other group of people were almost certainly crying out the EXACT SAME WORDS as their fuel laden instruments of gods wrath slammed into the buildings? To the exact same god, too!! I mean, WTF is the world coming to? Where has rational thought gone? Why aren't more people in this day and age looking at this act of barbarism (attack on the WTC) carried out in the name of god, and moving AWAY from belief systems that allow this thinking? But nooooo. thousands are flocking to see this "miracle" every day!

I didn't know about it either till Dawkins mentioned it. I seriously do not know how those people do it either... It goes against nearly all logical paths that a t shape piece of metal is somehow holy regardless of the very real fact that all that died that day were not christian. I guess that doesn't matter to christians because those people are burning in hell while they feel a superior rush to their heads in their delusions that their god is more real then allah.

I don't mean to offend any singular person, but if Christianty and Islam had a bodily representation, I'd kick them in the nuts.

Edited November 21, 2007 by __Kratos__

[jaylemurph]

*playing Devil's Advocate*

Who is to say that what the terrorists did was wrong? Countries commit genocide all the time against other countries. I highly doubt that the terrorists sole motivation for their attack was religious,,.I think they were being patrioits to their countries, their Theocratic Muslim countries no doubt, but their countries none the less. I see nothing wrong with their attacks because its war. They declared war, and in war there are casulties. They suffer civilian casulties ALL the time, do we think about that before we rampage and destroy their countries? Not at all. It has only a little bit to do with religion.

Well, if no-one else will, I'll go out on a limb and say it. What the 9/11 terrorists did was wrong. Murder in the singular is wrong; murder five thousand times over is five thousand times as worse. Killing innocent private parties in a political (if you can even call it that) struggle is wrong. Stealing planes is wrong. Heck, even forging travel papers is wrong.

In the West for several centuries, we've had rules of engagement for wars. We try (with more or less success, admittedly) not to target civilians and civilian targets; 9/11 is nothing like that. I don;t even think it's fair to call the "war on terror" war -- it's not an explicit struggle between discrete two political entities. It's a bunch of unco-ordinated attackers attacking one, cohesive political target.

Besides, you know what they say about patriotism and fools.

And I don't think it's fair to say genocide is committed "all of the time"; it certainly happens more often than it should, but that's not to say it's a current or on-going facet of human civilization.

--Jaylemurph

[TheKnight]

Yet, wars are not a pretty thing and should be avoided. Any war in the name of a god is an even more stupid war because there is no gods. When war is to be waged, it should be a justified postition based on defence from threats or an attack already on it's country. What those scumbags did was niether of those and for their god they killed thousands of innocent men, women and children for a warmongering religion.

Not even hardly. It was to create a wake up call in Americanized society. Showing that America is not perfect and flawless, and that it's not safe. Think how they think, why should we in America enjoy so many luxouries while they have to live a terrible life? Why should we be so rich and ungrateful for it, while they live in poorness? Why should we get to have all the comforts we have, and take them for granted, while they have little comfort? Do we share it at all? No. Do we care at all? No. We live in a materialistic capitalist society. We don't care about the little guy, or the poor. We only care about ourselves, and THAT's why they attacked us. If we won't listen diplomatically, than all we'll understand is when our children are murdered and our familes are killed. They face death and terror every single day, and America only cares when it involves America. That's not how things should be.

Well, if no-one else will, I'll go out on a limb and say it. What the 9/11 terrorists did was wrong. Murder in the singular is wrong; murder five thousand times over is five thousand times as worse. Killing innocent private parties in a political (if you can even call it that) struggle is wrong. Stealing planes is wrong. Heck, even forging travel papers is wrong.

Selfishness is wrong. Materialism is wrong. Capitalism is wrong. Your point?

In the West for several centuries, we've had rules of engagement for wars. We try (with more or less success, admittedly) not to target civilians and civilian targets; 9/11 is nothing like that. I don;t even think it's fair to call the "war on terror" war -- it's not an explicit struggle between discrete two political entities. It's a bunch of unco-ordinated attackers attacking one, cohesive political target.

If only our soldier got killed, would we understand? No. Because even now we lose soldiers, and America is forgetting. It's not about causing harm (in the deepest sense). It's about waking us up. The terrorists were trying to say for the rest of the world, "LOOK AMERICA! WE HAVE 91% of this planet in POVERTY! Wake up and do something." Sadly the message didn't get through.

[sede-x-teh-bomb]

Not even hardly. It was to create a wake up call in Americanized society. Showing that America is not perfect and flawless, and that it's not safe. Think how they think, why should we in America enjoy so many luxouries while they have to live a terrible life? Why should we be so rich and ungrateful for it, while they live in poorness? Why should we get to have all the comforts we have, and take them for granted, while they have little comfort? Do we share it at all? No. Do we care at all? No. We live in a materialistic capitalist society. We don't care about the little guy, or the poor. We only care about ourselves, and THAT's why they attacked us. If we won't listen diplomatically, than all we'll understand is when our children are murdered and our familes are killed. They face death and terror every single day, and America only cares when it involves America. That's not how things should be.

Selfishness is wrong. Materialism is wrong. Capitalism is wrong. Your point?

If only our soldier got killed, would we understand? No. Because even now we lose soldiers, and America is forgetting. It's not about causing harm (in the deepest sense). It's about waking us up. The terrorists were trying to say for the rest of the world, "LOOK AMERICA! WE HAVE 91% of this planet in POVERTY! Wake up and do something." Sadly the message didn't get through.

no that is not why they did it where are you getting this from

[Irish]

Critics say the brand of literalist religion Richard Dawkins condemns is limited to a small minority of believers -- but in fact it's all too common

Gazing down from the 40th floor of a lower Manhattan skyscraper, Richard Dawkins shakes his head. "What a symbol," he growls.

In the evening drizzle, the city is a jungle of glitz and twinkling lights but Dawkins' attention is fixed on a flood-lit crater directly below us. It is Ground Zero, the footprint of the twin towers, still barren six years after the atrocity that made the world gasp. At the bottom of the vast hole, backhoes scrape into the night.

What does this symbolize, I ask? "Religious bigotry," he answers crisply. Not a twisted version of Islam. Not Islam as a whole. No, for the Oxford professor, biologist, renowned science writer, and author of the notorious bestseller The God Delusion, the void below is what religion itself hath wrought.

"The people who did this terrible thing were sincere, deeply religious, believed they were right, believed they were doing the will of their god, firmly believed they were going straight to heaven for doing what they thought of as a wonderful deed," Dawkins says. "They had just one thing wrong with them. They believed. They had faith. And it was their faith that drove them to it."

More of the article here: Link

---------------------------------------------------------------

No normal decent person should be able to accept the horrors of religion from 'all powerful beings' with a sane mind. Or maybe it's just that they're truely evil and thrive on it? The twisted morality from what should be at least a base line of morals in todays world is seemly non-existent to religion. I mean, how else to you explain the deeds of gods and their followers while the masses continue to worship? Surely they are connected and in full agreement with what their religion is and what it has and will commit by their worshipping.

If someone is bent enough to want to kill you and everyone like you I fail to see any importance as to his nationality, religious or political beliefs. A threat of deadly violence should be defended with equally deadly consequences both on national level and a personal level no matter what their personal beliefs are.

[Lt_Ripley]

I can't say what Bin laden did was right. But his actions , and the actions of other groups , weren't exactly or shouldn't be surprises concidering our foriegn policy.

We backed ,heck Reagan co made , bin laden in the 80's when it fit our agenda. Just as we have backed Iraq and Saddam and backed Iran - we actually sold them nuclear tech and are now belly aching about it! we helped them build their first reactor . Yet now our government says they don't need reactors because they have all that oil -- it wasn't a problem before !!!! haliburton has sold both Iran and Iraq while under sanctions reactor and weapons parts. . Israel has sold guns and other weaponry to Iran during the Iran Iraq war !! as did we on both sides !!!!

we create the monsters and then are surprised when they bite us ?

And it's not as though the US has been saints. we have been monsters ourselves. and are looking in that mirror again. it's time we took responsiblity for our part. Did we bring this on ourselves ? sure we did. you can't expect a country to have the policy we have had and not step on toes.

if some other country held towards us the policies we hold to other countries we'd be inflamed with rage. and think ourselves rightous.

Edited November 21, 2007 by Lt_Ripley

[sede-x-teh-bomb]

A threat of deadly violence should be defended with equally deadly consequences both on national level and a personal level no matter what their personal beliefs are.

I wish this were true, although if it was true, the western world would have ceased to exsist many years ago.

as would have religion.

as would have your god.

we are all slaves to political agendas. Religion, class, beliefs, race, all these things are just ways to identify and separate the people and used as political and corporate weapons. People in general do not see this far outside their little box, they identify with what they are most familiar and content with, pick their side, and point their fingers at all the wrongs of the world.

religion aint the problem it used to be, people are a little more liberated then that, but as long as it is a politically viable tool it will continue to be used to divide and concer. it is a shame.

[jaylemurph]

Selfishness is wrong. Materialism is wrong. Capitalism is wrong. Your point?

For all three of those things, I'm not sure "right" or "wrong" can be applied in the same way they can be to individual actions like murder.

Certainly, capitalism is an economic system; it can't be "right" or "wrong" any more than it can be "correct" or "incorrect", and it certainly isn't the result of an /individual's/ action and subsequent moral interpretation. Selfishness and materialism aren't actions, they're either patterns of behaviour or, better, moral interpretations of several actions.

And besides, I don't think America is alone in creating or sustaining world poverty, nor the only one lax in response to world poverty. (Nor the only one to suffer for that, either).

But at the same time, for every terrorist driven to kill (particularly innocents) to get his point across, there are a hundred non-lethal protest actions he could have taken. If you argue that terrorism

is okay or better because it works more effectively, then surely you're arguing the ends justify the means. And I've watched far too many episodes of Doctor Who to ever believe that.

--Jaylemurph

[TheKnight]

For all three of those things, I'm not sure "right" or "wrong" can be applied in the same way they can be to individual actions like murder.

Certainly, capitalism is an economic system; it can't be "right" or "wrong" any more than it can be "correct" or "incorrect", and it certainly isn't the result of an /individual's/ action and subsequent moral interpretation. Selfishness and materialism aren't actions, they're either patterns of behaviour or, better, moral interpretations of several actions.

And besides, I don't think America is alone in creating or sustaining world poverty, nor the only one lax in response to world poverty. (Nor the only one to suffer for that, either).

But at the same time, for every terrorist driven to kill (particularly innocents) to get his point across, there are a hundred non-lethal protest actions he could have taken. If you argue that terrorism

is okay or better because it works more effectively, then surely you're arguing the ends justify the means. And I've watched far too many episodes of Doctor Who to ever believe that.

--Jaylemurph

I didn't say that America is alone. HOWEVER, America could do more to rid the world of poverty than the next few richest countries combined. America could do the most in helping the less fortunate of our world. America is the richest nation on the planet. We are involved in almost every worldly affair and it could even be said that we run the world. We can do the most out of all countries and thus the largest amount of responsiblity falls us.

[+Sherapy]

I didn't say that America is alone. HOWEVER, America could do more to rid the world of poverty than the next few richest countries combined. America could do the most in helping the less fortunate of our world. America is the richest nation on the planet. We are involved in almost every worldly affair and it could even be said that we run the world. We can do the most out of all countries and thus the largest amount of responsiblity falls us.

Its funny too Z. we give less then 1 percent we are the most selfish of all the countries...

e-mail me on your question .....

[sede-x-teh-bomb]

Its funny too Z. we give less then 1 percent we are the most selfish of all the countries...

e-mail me on your question .....

thats pretty laughable for a "christian nation"

[+Sherapy]

thats pretty laughable for a "christian nation"

Hmm good point...

[sede-x-teh-bomb]

Hmm good point...

but they are all to happy to share the "gift of democracy"....................at gun point lol

what a joke........... we will liberate you!! we will give you the opourtinity to vote for your own dictator!! yay democracy.

Edited November 22, 2007 by sede-x-teh-bomb

[+Sherapy]

but they are all to happy to share the "gift of democracy"....................at gun point lol

what a joke........... we will liberate you!! we will give you the opourtinity to vote for your own dictator!! yay democracy.

ditto on yours =)

[jaylemurph]

I didn't say that America is alone. HOWEVER, America could do more to rid the world of poverty than the next few richest countries combined. America could do the most in helping the less fortunate of our world. America is the richest nation on the planet. We are involved in almost every worldly affair and it could even be said that we run the world. We can do the most out of all countries and thus the largest amount of responsiblity falls us.

Well, we certainly seem to agree on that!

--Jaylemurph

[+Paranoid Android]

It's as i have said in the past - it is my experience that religion is a vehicle. Used in the best intentions, it can lead to joy and peace and love and goodwill to all (this applies to all religions, not just the one to which i ascribe, though it has brought me all those things and more). However, corrupted religion leads the exact opposite way - to destruction, pain, hurt, terrorism.......

When selfish men or women use religion for their own selfish desires of power, greed, land, etc, this then leads to inevitable evil deeds. The corruption of one person in a position of power can lead down a dangerous slippery slide.

When it comes to 9/11, I don't see Muslim terrorists acting under the name of their God. I see a corrupted and greedy individual who has manipulated these people into propagating their corrupt cause. Suffice it to say, I do not think you will ever see Bin Laden strap a bomb to his chest - it's always the foot soldiers.

Religion can be good. Corrupted religion can be bad. The same can be said for anything in life. Look at soccer (or Football, if that's what it's called in your country). It's JUST A GAME. But people riot, loot, burn, pillage, even murder people for simply losing a game. If this fanaticism can be seen in simple game, what chance does any other part of life have?

Of course, that's just my view......

~ PA

[__Kratos__]

If someone is bent enough to want to kill you and everyone like you I fail to see any importance as to his nationality, religious or political beliefs. A threat of deadly violence should be defended with equally deadly consequences both on national level and a personal level no matter what their personal beliefs are.

You don't see the importance to seeing a threat and learning more about it? You just said to defend... But what would you know what to defend against if you're willfully blind?

It's as i have said in the past - it is my experience that religion is a vehicle. Used in the best intentions, it can lead to joy and peace and love and goodwill to all (this applies to all religions, not just the one to which i ascribe, though it has brought me all those things and more). However, corrupted religion leads the exact opposite way - to destruction, pain, hurt, terrorism.......

When selfish men or women use religion for their own selfish desires of power, greed, land, etc, this then leads to inevitable evil deeds. The corruption of one person in a position of power can lead down a dangerous slippery slide.

When it comes to 9/11, I don't see Muslim terrorists acting under the name of their God. I see a corrupted and greedy individual who has manipulated these people into propagating their corrupt cause. Suffice it to say, I do not think you will ever see Bin Laden strap a bomb to his chest - it's always the foot soldiers.

Religion can be good. Corrupted religion can be bad. The same can be said for anything in life. Look at soccer (or Football, if that's what it's called in your country). It's JUST A GAME. But people riot, loot, burn, pillage, even murder people for simply losing a game. If this fanaticism can be seen in simple game, what chance does any other part of life have?

Of course, that's just my view......

~ PA

When it comes ot 9/11 and other terror attacks with muslims, I and many other see it as an attack from Islam. The religions mentioned in the article allow this behavior and even encourage it. It's beyond foolish to think that a piece of metal from 9/11 should be used for a christian symbol from a muslim attack. Using more religion to cover up the bad deeds of religion changes nothing.

Bin Laden is a leader. You don't see Bush in the battlefield or the former PM Howard out on patrol with Aussie troops in Iraq.

[Lt_Ripley]

what most are forgetting is that is was/is US foreign policy that is at the root of all this. not jealousy of the west as some moron on the hill tried to paint.

we are not saints. Heck , we made bin laden and backed Saddam. we sold Iran it's first nuclear reactor. Haliburton sold nuclear parts to both Iraq and Iraq while both were under restrictions ! We had our dirty hands in the oil for food scandal just as much as any other country.

we help make the monsters , promise them our support , money , weapons ( Israel sold Iran weapons during the Iraq/Iran wars !!!!!) yet wonder why the dog bites us ???

Not to mention all the covert operations the US has taking place all the time. plenty of innocents have died at our hands.

so remember - it's a 2 way street. We screwed with people and are amazed they retaliated ? oh please. you get what you give.

if indeed we treated others the way we would want to be treated we wouldn't be in this mess.

[__Kratos__]

what most are forgetting is that is was/is US foreign policy that is at the root of all this. not jealousy of the west as some moron on the hill tried to paint

Never mentioned it was jealousy. I mentioned that it was for killing infidels. You're the one trying to justify an attack on this country which resulted in thousands of deaths by terrorists.

Edited November 26, 2007 by __Kratos__