UK Government plan to allow Lesbian IVF

[jaylemurph]

It seems to me, that for a lot of the Liberals in UM, if one doesnt agree with them, then that makes them a Bigot!

Now im not sure, but ive seen research that suggests Bigots are born that way, and not nurtured that way!

Hey looks like the Bigots are using the same argument as the Gay Fetishists!..........More power to the bigot, AKA the moderate realist!

No, you're a bigot because you consistently, unabashedly spout hate about other kinds of people than yourself, not because you happen to disagree with my personal politics.

You really are a sad, small man.

--Jaylemurph

[Belle.]

Don't make me laugh! these kids will grow up feeling like their part of local freak show........Or perhaps, the kid will come to his or her own conclusion, and feel their family set up is a bit Dodgy!

OH, but we cant have that, because if a 10 year old questions their erm..( Mum & Mum )and believe me they will!, and they are not satisfied with the explanation, in the eyes of many of you, that will make the child a Bigot......

How bizarre, I have always lived in an affluent, tolerant, low crime community where views such as yours are the FREAK SHOW.

Your blustering hyperbole would be amusing if it wasn't so hateful.

[Lt_Ripley]

There you go again LT, spouting off the usual (cut & paste) statistics for kids brought up by same sex parents! of course this research must be quite thorough! since same sex parents are common place!......Hmm or not?

Sounds to me, that the flimsy research you so like to refer to, probably has about 1000 subjects (worldwide), and i am being generous with that!..... Your dodgy statistics are about as dodgy as the probable Gay Statisticians who compiled them!..... its all rather favorable.... Since its a minority issue, people glance over it & dont give it another thought!

Almost like sneaking an ideal through the back door! Hmm, no pun intended.....

As for your vile attacks on my persona, well, this demonstrates a form of aggression in you, that is frustrated, confused, and desperate to gain Gay fetishness credibility!

you are failing miserably, your argument is about as credible as Vanilla ice, I almost feel like relenting out of sympathy... But i wont

Dear Scrummage - stick to what you know - cruising mens' public bathrooms , checking out their packages and wondering what it would be like while living in denial.

Don't worry , us liberals will forgive you when you start being honest about yourself. We can see your struggle. We pray for your own sense of inner peace.

As for me knowing better, i do, iv'e frequented many a public lavatory, and observed many a mans *SpamFilter*, I have to say, it never done a thing for me! but hey i've looked, I questioned it, and i've moved on!.

next time in your frequente public lavatory excursions and observations of meny men , instead of questioning it , give it a try. you may find all your self hate lift away. you may even become a loveable person . Honesty to onesself has that affect.

oh and studies done by the American Psychological Association on children of gay parents as well as gay parents .

http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

Edited November 27, 2007 by Lt_Ripley

[Siara]

Call gay fetishness what you like, i really don't care, gay fetish parenting......

Lord Scrummage, you need to get to know some gay people. You'll find that they are boringly normal.

The idea that most kids in history were raised with 2 parents, one male "role model" and one "female" role model is inaccurate. People have been raised in all sorts of households throughout history. If you're really interested in this, sign up for an on-line genealogy group. They provide access to scans of the census going back to the early 1800's. You can see exactly who lived with whom. You'll find all sorts of non-traditional family structures. (it's really interesting if you're into anthropology). Check the same names over 50 years or so and you'll see that most went on to hold down a job and/or reproduce.

[jaylemurph]

Lord Scrummage, you need to get to know some gay people. You'll find that they are boringly normal.

Hey wait, I'm not bor...

Meh. Who am I kidding?

--Jaylemurph

[Lt_Ripley]

Hey wait, I'm not bor...

Meh. Who am I kidding?

--Jaylemurph

lmao ! I was thinking the same ! I'm not boring ! but yes , really ............ Yawn. sad isn't it ? up all night means nowadays insomnia. not dancing !

[Shalott]

Lesbian couples have been having children for a long time now, and rightly so. I can't believe that people react so badly towards the idea of a child growing up with two loving parents, when there are so many worse things happening in the world today. Women are constantly having unwanted pregnancies and completely disregarding the needs of their children, bringing them up in violent and abusive households. A child growing up in a lesbian household would, I believe, never have to experience that sort of abuse because the crap that these couples have to wade through in order to simply have the opportunity to have a child indicates just how precious they would hold one. My parents divorced when I was 2, and though I speak to and see my dad now, he was rarely there when I was growing up. He lived too far away for me to see often, so most of the time I had to settle for a phone call, and cheques and gifts he'd post out in the mail. And you know, I turned out fine despite having a single parent. The lack of a male figure in my life certainly didn't affect me at all, so I don't know where some people get the idea that you need a male and female for stability. Rarely is any household stable these days. Male and female couples are allowed IVF, nobody has a problem with them not going through with 'natural' conception, I don't see why female couples shouldn't be allowed it either.

Edited November 27, 2007 by NatalieK

[Siara]

Lord Scrummage, you need to get to know some gay people. You'll find that they are boringly normal.

No offense intended to the fascinating people we have here, of course.... I just meant that kids raised in most gay homes have pretty similar domestic environments to kids from hetero households, The way some of these posts sound, you'd think every gay household was like "La Cage aux Folles"

[Cradle of Fish]

Jeez, 8 pages over something that is really trivial like gay couples having children. We need less insecure people in the world complaining about non-issues such as this.

[Syd Boggle]

Jeez, 8 pages over something that is really trivial like gay couples having children. We need less insecure people in the world complaining about non-issues such as this.

In in that little statement, you say the whole subject is trivial!

If it was that trivial, then why is it not legal in the UK?.......The fact that is up for a Commons debate, makes it anything but "Trivial"......

The fact that the British public are generally not in favor of this Law, does not make it Trivial!

What is Trivial, is the usual liberal rhetoric, "Oh your insecure"......."your a closet gay fetishist"........ "your a bigot"...... "your a *SpamFilter*"...etc,

None of those statements give credibility to your argument........

Of course you all have to subscribe to those attacking statements!

But imagine people, if I, or everyone else who shares my view on this topic, were none of the above!

of course your biased reasoning, could never entertain such a thought.......

[Space Commander Travis]

that makes no sense.

Edited November 27, 2007 by 747400

[Syd Boggle]

that makes no sense.

Hmmmm, by all accounts its gone straight over your head.....................perhaps you should stick to counting those pretty fluffy clouds in the sky! simple-ville must be a great place....

[Lt_Ripley]

Majority in UK support gay equality - poll

Source: The Times and the Guardian newspapers, UK, 23 May 2007

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

23 May 2007

The Guardian, UK

Majority support gay equality rights, poll finds

By Hugh Muir

Up to 90% of the British population support the ban on discrimination against gays and lesbians, according to new research.

Despite the protestations of some church leaders, as many as 85% specifically back the sexual orientation regulations, which make discrimination against gays and lesbians in the provision of goods and services an offence. The YouGov survey of 2,000 Britons shows that "people of faith" were as likely to support gay equality as members of the wider population. The vast majority also called for tougher steps to confront homophobia to be taken by government, workplaces, schools and the media.

The polling, conducted for the charity Stonewall, depicts a society predominantly at ease with one of the key social changes of the past 20 years.

More than a third of those polled said they have a "high" opinion of lesbians and gay men. Three out of four said they would be comfortable if their child's teacher was gay and even more said they would happily be treated by a gay doctor.

Further, 92% said they would have no complaints if it emerged that a footballer in a team they supported was gay while eighty per cent said a gay member of the royal family would not cause a problem. 89% said they would back laws making it illegal to incite hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation.

But at the same time, the public also appeared to recognise the extent to which prejudice still exists. Over half said they believe gay and lesbian people suffer public discrimination and 73% called for corrective action.

Many spoke of witnessing homophobic bullying at school and at work. 83% said the media relied too much on "cliched stereotypes" of gay people. Ben Summerskill, Stonewall's chief executive, said the organisation wanted an accurate picture of attitudes in the UK.

"We wanted to establish whether the shrill voices in modern Britain still opposing equality are actually representative. While a significant majority of Britons are clearly not prejudiced, as this polling demonstrates, their voices are often drowned out by a minority who are.

"I'm delighted we now have hard evidence that people don't want to live in a society that allows prejudice against any group of people, including lesbians and gay men, to fester."

He said the overall conclusion is that "Britain is a tolerant country with a widespread acceptance that prejudice has no proper place in civil society".

But he said those who do discriminate have a disproportionate impact. "While a significant majority of Britons don't appear prejudiced against gay people, millions have witnessed the corrosive damage done by the few that are."

The sexual orientation regulations, which came into force in April, mirror the similar long-standing bans against racial and religious discrimination

http://www.yawningbread.org/apdx_2007/imp-329.htm

[Syd Boggle]

Id say that report is more guardian conducted than the times.......In fact i will go further and suggest, that the Guardian did conduct that survey, and the times probably just reported the findings!

Its about as credible as Bin Laden eating a bacon sarnie.......

[Siara]

Maybe with all the ghastly things happening in the world people are finally realizing that using the legal system to control what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms is a stupid waste. The idea that a brain-dead crack whore who gets knocked up by her john is a more fit mother than (for example) a gay lawyer is ridiculous beyond belief.

[Syd Boggle]

The idea that a brain-dead crack whore who gets knocked up by her john is a more fit mother than (for example) a gay lawyer is ridiculous beyond belief.

Ha ha , don't make me laugh! Of course a Gay lawyer must be a great parent! who would question that?........

Well i would!......Lawyers are bunch of *SpamFilter*...... and we've all be buggered by them! ...... Ahem.. no pun intended....

But back to topic, what bearing does that have on the moral issue? This society is not ready for Same sex parents!.......

The guardian can conduct their little surveys amongst their, pro Liberal, middle class, pro-active readers, who wear Thick rimmed media student glasses!

The truth is, they don't reflect the British population....And if you want to reflect the British population via a newspaper! Try the UK's best selling paper.....

The Sun.......I bet they are all for it!

Edited November 27, 2007 by lord scrummage

[Space Commander Travis]

The guardian can conduct their little surveys amongst their, pro Liberal, middle class, pro-active readers, who wear Thick rimmed media student glasses!

The truth is, they don't reflect the British population....And if you want to reflect the British population via a newspaper! Try the UK's best selling paper.....

The Sun.......I bet they are all for it!

wel, it's about at your intellectual level.

Edited November 27, 2007 by 747400

[Goblin-5]

This debate is reminiscent of the ones over interracial marriages. The argument that it was "unnatural" and "immoral" was raised back then as well but in far more graphic terms. The offspring were supposed to have been culturally and socially isolated and would grow up to be criminals etc etc etc. All these hysterical charges proved to be so wrong as is IMO the opposition to lesbian IVF. Britain survived those traumatic events, it will survive gay parents.

[Cradle of Fish]

In in that little statement, you say the whole subject is trivial!

If it was that trivial, then why is it not legal in the UK?.......The fact that is up for a Commons debate, makes it anything but "Trivial"......

The fact that the British public are generally not in favor of this Law, does not make it Trivial!

What is Trivial, is the usual liberal rhetoric, "Oh your insecure"......."your a closet gay fetishist"........ "your a bigot"...... "your a *SpamFilter*"...etc,

None of those statements give credibility to your argument........

Of course you all have to subscribe to those attacking statements!

But imagine people, if I, or everyone else who shares my view on this topic, were none of the above!

of course your biased reasoning, could never entertain such a thought.......

It is trivial. Why are you making such a big deal out of things that do not affect you at all? You dont seem so cut up about single parents and abusive straight couples, which could be more damaging to a child than a gay couple. Why does it matter if lesbians have children? Is the quality of your life compromised at all?

It's trivial because the world is trying to move on, like we did in the past with the whole race issue, but people are holding us back. We moved on from hatred of blacks, but some parts of the world moved on quicker than others. Apartheid in South Africa was beaten less than 20 years ago. This is just the new racism issue, some of us want to move on, others want to cling onto their baseless prejudices.

I'm not insulting you, I didn't call you a closet "gay fetishist", because I truly dont believe all homophobes are secretly gay, only the really radical ones like they have in the Republican party in the US. And we all have insecurities, all equally trivial, but I dont go out of my way to enforce my insecure world view on other people. I have no right to do that, nobody has the right to do that.

So please, whatever your personal beliefs are on the subject, keep it to yourself.

[jaylemurph]

No offense intended to the fascinating people we have here, of course.... I just meant that kids raised in most gay homes have pretty similar domestic environments to kids from hetero households, The way some of these posts sound, you'd think every gay household was like "La Cage aux Folles"

... I dunno. Makes a change from being expected to be all waspishly funny and lively for a change...

Id say that report is more guardian conducted than the times.......In fact i will go further and suggest, that the Guardian did conduct that survey, and the times probably just reported the findings!

Its about as credible as Bin Laden eating a bacon sarnie.......

More proof that Scrummage is generally out of touch with his society and unwilling to deal with reality.

Like Oswald Moseley, really.

--Jaylemurph

[ships-cat]

It is trivial. Why are you making such a big deal out of things that do not affect you at all? You dont seem so cut up about single parents and abusive straight couples, which could be more damaging to a child than a gay couple. Why does it matter if lesbians have children? Is the quality of your life compromised at all?

It's trivial because the world is trying to move on, like we did in the past with the whole race issue, but people are holding us back. We moved on from hatred of blacks, but some parts of the world moved on quicker than others. Apartheid in South Africa was beaten less than 20 years ago. This is just the new racism issue, some of us want to move on, others want to cling onto their baseless prejudices.

I'm not insulting you, I didn't call you a closet "gay fetishist", because I truly dont believe all homophobes are secretly gay, only the really radical ones like they have in the Republican party in the US. And we all have insecurities, all equally trivial, but I dont go out of my way to enforce my insecure world view on other people. I have no right to do that, nobody has the right to do that.

So please, whatever your personal beliefs are on the subject, keep it to yourself.

Well said.

Now tell me who is paying for it.

If it's on the National Health, then I am paying for it, along with many others.

I havn't read the ENTIRE post-response chain, so please forgive - and correct - me if I have missed something.

But if this is on the NHS, at a time when my Dad was left in a supply cupboard on a bloody trolley, then darned RIGHT I will object to this sort of trivial "lifestyle" treatment.

C'mon back.

Hiss Growl.

[Tiggs]

The rules are the same for all current IVF treatments for any woman attempting to get pregnant who has infertility problems. The first attempt is subsidised by the NHS, everything after, privately funded.

If, as is more likely with a lesbian couple, there are no infertility problems, then it's just a question of artificial insemination which would have to be privately funded.

It's not as if Lesbians getting IVF treatment is a new thing. The NHS has been running IVF for Lesbian couples where the mother has infertility problems for years. It's a fairly hit and miss affair, though, depending where in the postcode lottery you live as when a couple are considered for IVF treatment, one of the things that must be considered is the suitability of the couple to raise the child.

The current sticking point is that the current guidelines for suitability expressly mention the need for a father. Those Doctors who feel that Lesbian couples shouldn't be allowed to raise children are using this clause as a means to deny IVF treatment to them, privately or otherwise. The proposed Government legislation will remove the explicit need for a father to be present in the upbringing of the child when considering the suitability of the parenting environment.

[Bill Hill]

Of course Lesbians are going to need IVF treatment. Why? er.... because they can't have children..'together'

I guess someone should have told them, you know...like.. it takes a man and a women.

But to some people here...this is merely 'semantics..'

Thank god, I've been through childhood, I can only but feel sorry for the next generation of kids who are brought into the world under such 'freaky conditions' They have my sympathies.

For Those About to be raised by gay parents-I Salute You.

[Syd Boggle]

This debate is reminiscent of the ones over interracial marriages. The argument that it was "unnatural" and "immoral" was raised back then as well but in far more graphic terms. The offspring were supposed to have been culturally and socially isolated and would grow up to be criminals etc etc etc. All these hysterical charges proved to be so wrong as is IMO the opposition to lesbian IVF. Britain survived those traumatic events, it will survive gay parents.

Here we go again, another badly informed comment!

There is very little proven success with interracial marrages, the majority of these unions are very short lived, usually leaving a single white mother with a number of mix raced kids!

Violent crimes are disproportionately high amongst these kids, who ultimately don't feel they belong to any race, but usually attach themselves to the "gangster Yardie culture"

An unspeakable amount of public money has been spent on these kids, and other British born ethnic minorities to assist them, and thus far has been a waste of time.......Although has created many cushy, well paid Jobs, i.e. Social Integration Officers, diversity programme managers...social inclusion workers.....etc

Our tax's are funding these politically correct jobs (its all a bit of a government funded gravy train)

Now i'm not even going to bother leaving a link with statistics, anyone can use google, its all easily found!)

So again, with your point, you have inadvertently shot yourself, and the whole Pro argument in the foot!

Erm Well done

Unless of course, thats what you were hoping for!

Clever

Edited November 28, 2007 by lord scrummage

[Cradle of Fish]

Here we go again, another badly informed comment!

There is very little proven success with interracial marrages, the majority of these unions are very short lived, usually leaving a single white mother with a number of mix raced kids!

Violent crimes are disproportionately high amongst these kids, who ultimately don't feel they belong to any race, but usually attach themselves to the "gangster Yardie culture"

An unspeakable amount of public money has been spent on these kids, and other British born ethnic minorities to assist them, and thus far has been a waste of time.......Although has created many cushy, well paid Jobs, i.e. Social Integration Officers, diversity programme managers...social inclusion workers.....etc

Our tax's are funding these politically correct jobs (its all a bit of a government funded gravy train)

Now i'm not even going to bother leaving a link with statistics, anyone can use google, its all easily found!)

So again, with your point, you have inadvertently shot yourself, and the whole Pro argument in the foot!

Erm Well done

Unless of course, thats what you were hoping for!

Clever

Forgive me if this sounds like an insult but you're talking out of your behind. You see, alot of marriages fail, just highlighting the interracial ones that do and ignoring the ones that dont doesn't really validate your argument.