Why Debunking and Offensive Posturing is a Wa

[SS79]

Agree to disagree, always a good way out

very true . whats with the i don't like fish ??

[NoahJaymes]

Eh, wanted to have a signature and only thing I could think of this late was I don't like Fish lol

[JackalnChainz]

Brilliant!

[Mabon]

Hello JackalnChainz, nice thread but darn it you beat me to a thread I was thinking about doing on the this topic. Oh well!

Why Debunking and Offensive Posturing is a Waste of Time

Read the OP before you get all bent

Read OP before you get all bent cracked me up!

This is not to say that debunking, within the parameters of this forum, is a useless activity. Only that people should realize, that just because a viable and reasonable explanation is found, doesn't mean that it is the only and correct one. We have all witnessed the recent sleep disorder, Sleep paralysis, being attributed to almost everything presented in this forum, if in fact, the Op indicates the person was or had been asleep, or was near a bedroom or it was that time of night, etc etc. I have conceded, that although I know little about the disorder, it most likely is the answer to many of the cases presented in this forum. BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. It is statistically impossible. However, I trust my friends that are in the field of psychology, like Natalie, and yeild to their prognosis most often. I have a great deal of respect for our mental health professionals. But, although it may make the most sense, it doesn't necessarily make it so. Just because there is loose insulation in the attic and a crack in the ceiling, doesn't mean that is the only answer for an orb photograph. It is highly likely, but not the only possibility.

Honest debunking and skepticism is IMHO necessary to determine the source of a disturbance. Debunking isn't attacking nor is skepticism a terrible thing, asking questions is the only way to get answers. I feel that it's obvious, how questions are asked or statements made the intent of the poster for example- 'you're delusional' 'freaking grow up' etc. types of comments are clearly indicative (at least to me) that the person who posts such comments isn't contributing to anything other than their own ego. It's also my belief that EGOS should be checked at the door. No one is infallible, no ones opinion is the end all be all of answers, mine included. LOL! I'm here to learn as much as share!

SP, paredolia or any other buzz word shouldn't be used as a blanket term/s to wrap experiences up in. If the terms are used in that fashion to dismiss without the experience being fully investigated/examined for it's own merit isn't good reasoning. Yet the same should be said for assuming all things without proper investigation are paranormal just because it resembles an individuals experience.

Dispensing medical advice is prohibited on this board yet suggesting that someone seek medical aid is important to do if for no other reason than it is a responsible thing to do besides it does rule it out or in as the case may be. This isn't the same thing as a veiled snark of 'seek help' either.

Without getting into the whole 'orb' debate (LOL) if it is repeatable under known repeatable conditions I would have to say that it would have to be ruled out as evidence.

I think most of you realize because of my background, that I view demonics similar to the way I view the criminal element, and conducted my investigations thusly. In my minds eye, I can picture the devils, laughing, with a built in alibi waiting. All their handiwork is now attributed to mental disorders. I've even seen bite marks on the neck imputed to the victim. Ridiculous! Mental health therapy and medicinal solutions seem to be the answer to all of the things that go bump in the night. I'm not sure, however, that the OP was seeking advise from this perspective when they entered *Unexplained Mysteries*. They can find those answers in any book of Yellow Pages. But I do feel this perspective has a viable role in the path to a positive outcome.

Jackal not to bait you or anything but honestly no one should care what your 'street cred' is. It doesn't matter a bit how many experiences any of us have or had, how many 'investigations' any of us have been on or not, it's not 'our' experience that we are examining when we are looking at another's story. Sure it will play a part of how we respond but their experience isn't our experience. (I hope that made sense.) Say for sake of argument; a person has an experience where they've seen something float by them, if another person feels that was how their 'haunting' started they may state it when in reality the OP may have an eye condition where a 'floater' passes across the retina. http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/spotsfloats.htm Now maybe they've never had an eye examination or heard of the condition telling them that they are 'haunted' because 'I've been through it' is irresponsible and assuming facts about the OP experience based on their own and not evidence.

And again I apologize if I offend, but unless you have a background in medicine (which I don't either) you aren't qualified to determine how a person who is suffering from a mental disorder may cause harm to themselves or if it was a bite mark on the person. It may have been a self-inflicted wound that mimicked a bite wound. Now if you say that you saw this bite mark form in front of you.. that's a whole other kettle of fish... but don't be surprised if I ask you bunches of questions! LOL!

I do feel that if a person investigates an experience and goes into it with 'it's all rubbish' or 'I believe everything' attitude they can generate explanations to cover their opinion. That's why I believe the middle way, go in look for logical explanations to debunk and escalate as needed.

Moreover, and in conclusion, I believe our individual contributions to those seeking answers should be in the context of suggestions, from insight and practical experience. I hardly see the need to debate among eachother, the validity of individual claims, as this is the role of the OP. And it also makes us appear without unity and at odds. If I agree with a post, I will so state. If I disagree with a post, I will also state this, and the reason why. I refuse to enter into a p***ing match with another UM member personally, regarding their theories. That is not to say that I won't become excited over their method of delivery, but I respect each persons opinion and their combined hypotheses in the over all solution seeking process. So with this in mind, it should be remembered, that a case isn't closed simply because a rational explanation is offered. Every avenue should be explored. Remember the bumper sticker...Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean someone isn't really watching you.

What do you think? ~Jackal

LOL! I agree with your summation! Respect is key! I like that there are varied interpretations of an experience (excluding the drive-by trolls), it allows for the OP and all of us really to learn/expand our knowledge base.

Oh and while I'm thinking of it you asked how to separate out the different parts to quote. Click and highlight the portion of the post that you want to pull out and then while it's highlighted go to the top of the text window and you'll see a icon that looks like a cartoon quote balloon, it is located below the pull-down fonts, next to the last button. Click that and it will wrap that highlighted portion in quote tags. Just make sure that your quote tags match or it won't let you post. It takes some time to edit but once you get the hang of it, it's really very useful!

Regards,

Mabon.

Danged ol' typos...

Edited November 29, 2007 by Mabon

[AngelXVI]

I think any reasonable adult would have tried to debunk it themselves before posting! I am not knowledgeable in the SP field so I tend to leave it alone and besides I don't think its a good idea to diagnose people on UM... I will just tell them to seek medical advice and pray which covers both options...

On the other hand the younger posters... If something doesn't sound right or post are highly dramatized I will look at their profile, check their age and see what other threads they have started... i.e. if they have posted a topic on I have seen the lockness monster... then this tells me they have a very active imagination.

When you've been down every avenue to try and debunk something and that doesn't work the only thing left is the paranormal... You try and research what it is your experiencing... In the end I don't think anyone will know for sure and I guess it will always be a mystery...

To be on a forum like this I think you need some what of a open mind... The rules of the paranormal are not set in stone.

Angel

[JustNormal]

I wish I knew how you separated your quote lines.

You seem to be saying that if it is paranormal in origin, that it can not be fact, or a factual statement. If I read that right. This is entering the "prove it" argument, which I am not going there. You can't disprove it. lol.

I understand you viewpoint my friend. However, you have no binding contract to offer anything, true or not. And it certainly is nobodies business to determine whos' statements are factual or not. Really...we need to come back to earth here. And that sounds SOOOOO strange coming from the believer in the paranormal...but really! lol. If I think there's a demon involved and say so, who are you to dispute me? You can't prove one way or the other. And that is the entire main message of this thread. If you are strung out on lsd, and halucinating and hospitalized. And you think a ghost slapped you, just because you are messed up doesn't mean one didn't.

Let them delude themselves. I don't see it as deluding, and I certainly don't see you as their savior or educator. I'm not being harsh, just straight forward, as I feel comfortable in doing so with you. Offer your opinion. that is all you can do. I remember once, when I was a young security guard at a bank. I helped an old man whos' car had stalled in front, by pushing his car. The Captain got all over me about it. I said, "hey, I have a moral obligation to help" He said, "that kind of talk will get us sued!" and sadly, in this day and time, he was right.

But if you think you must save the world (from themselves even) then go right ahead. I see great promise for you in government work. I here Massachusetts is debating whether or not people should be allowed to spank their own kids. lol

LOL Hey Massachusetts here!! No one should touch a child so there!! LOL..BTW Great post my friend. JN

[JustNormal]

I think any reasonable adult would have tried to debunk it themselves before posting! I am not knowledgeable in the SP field so I tend to leave it alone and besides I don't think its a good idea to diagnose people on UM... I will just tell them to seek medical advice and pray which covers both options...

On the other hand the younger posters... If something doesn't sound right or post are highly dramatized I will look at their profile, check their age and see what other threads they have started... i.e. if they have posted a topic on I have seen the lockness monster... then this tells me they have a very active imagination.

When you've been down every avenue to try and debunk something and that doesn't work the only thing left is the paranormal... You try and research what it is your experiencing... In the end I don't think anyone will know for sure and I guess it will always be a mystery...

To be on a forum like this I think you need some what of a open mind... The rules of the paranormal are not set in stone.

Angel

Hi Angel, Ya know, the word debunk is workin my last nerve. I never heard the word used so often, till TAPS came into view. The issue is, if someone posts a story, at any age how can any of us "debunk" it? Each experience is unique and each is our own. No one can prove a spirit, a ghost or any kind of haunting. If we dont disagree, that is not debunking that is disagreeing. We have no right to not believe someone unless its a kid joking around. Teens have a vivid imagination, and are in the land between a child and adult, where mortality becomes real to them. They also connect with Poltergeists, so we again just read, and reply. We cannot debunk anything, except a photo, but even then, if an ORB meant something to someone who posted it, who are we to tell them they are full of it, or its dust if we are not professional parapsychologists, because even photographers are not good at seeing something paranormal, they just made a judgement within their comfort zone. Lastly if someone comes on here for the first time, scared or confused, they are reaching out for help. None of us debunked our experiences before we posted them, why are newbies any different..But you are correct, an open mind is totally needed..JN

[NoahJaymes]

TAPS didn't coin the word, they made it popular. It's a two way street JN. Just as you question our ability to debunk claims, who are we to prove their claims are there. By stating, yep, that sounds like a ghost to me? If I see a clear cut case of it being a natural occurance or explainable, I will state so and why I think so. I will be the last person to say anything is paranormal without absolute certainity of such.

I am a believer, so don't get this twisted, but just because someone comes on here and posts something they have experienced, doesn't automatically rule in favor of paranormal. If someone is asking a question on what they experienced it, we ask questions back, if we can get to the end result of solving the problem logically, DEBUNKED.

--Disclaimer--

If you disagree with this post, so be it. Let it go. It was not meant to demoralize those who take offense to this post. If you want to get all p***y about it, pm me and lets talk. Otherwise, this post has ended.

--Tis All

Edited November 29, 2007 by EnJay

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Hi Jackal .

Good post . I agree with you about the arguing between each other is unnecessary . but ya know me. I have to say something LOL so here goes . This is not directed at you personally . general statements about the forum as a whole .in response to your observations.

This forum is for everyone to post there views on what the OP states in their posts .if the op states something that we think is SP then i feel we should tell them this . what we have to remember is that people all over the world no matter where they are or what age , may not have heard of this condition and thus may think something paranormals going on .. I agree not all of them are sleep paralysis . but i also think some people dismiss it too easily .

I'd agree it doesn't make it so . but asking the questions is how we find out . Some may choose to get offended that the questions of mental health are asked but i feel they need asking . remember some people come here who are young and dont have a clue what mental ilnesses are or how they work . so they put everything down to paranormal when it could in fact be that they need genuine medical help .12 year olds don't tend to think "oh that shadow person could be my mind playing tricks on me or me having a condition" . they tend to jump to the ghost conclsion due to horror movies .books etc .

But where do we draw the line ?? so lets say someone comes in all scared and they get ten people offering them advice who think this person is haunted by a demon/ghost/spirit and 7 others offer a medical explanation and point them in the direction of the evidence that has been done and there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for it ,. problems usually start when they dismiss that evidence outright as impossible . thats when we have problems because its true some people want there experiences to be paranormal even if they aren't . so they will toss aside evidence put to them for a medical reason and accept the demon/ghost/shadow person aspect with little or no proof ,

This is evident all over UM . frankly i want all my experiences to be paranormal it would be great i'd have loads to talk about . i'd know that there was more to life than just this physical **** we put up with everyday, but sadly its not that simple .Ive had to chop all my experiences down to a mere handful because there have been logical explanations found for the others . it happens .

This is not a rant at all i actually agreed with the majority of your post .

However one thing i do have to say is this some people think that giving people a medical explanation is bad on this forum because it could be dangerous as the person will then dismiss the demon/spirit/ghost side and could leave themselves open . just remember that works both ways. Just as i don't think any of us are qualified to medically diagnose . i also dont think any of us are qualified enough or have enough background info on the OP to know that a demon is present either . Caution needs to be excersized on both sides . IMO .

Blessings SS79 x x x

My opinions only and not meant to demean nor offend in any way shape or form .

Such a good post. Questioning is never a bad thing.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

You're not so lucky as you think.

Number one...this isn't a job, or even within anyones sphere of responsibility. If it was, the admin would have fired everyone here several times over. You don't allow anyone to do anything. You are not their mother, or king, or anything else but a series of binary codes interpreted as an opinion on the internet. THIS IS ONLY THE INTERNET, YOU KNOW?

If they wish to delude themselves, it is none of your business. All you can do is offer your opinion, and even suggestions if they are so receptive. When did this forum become a field hospital? Why do people in here feel they are the only answer to questions that men have asked for centuries? I was under the assumption that a forum is acommon ground for people of a common theory to openly present and discuss ideas relative to that idea or theory. Not sit in judgement and attempt to solve the paranormal dilemmas of the world. Some of these people are investigators. Some are even doctors. Most are just regular people that have had some experience with the paranormal...or some experience giving others a hard time and this is prime hunting grounds.

We are not here to teach. We are not here to heal. If we are, we better start getting some disclaimers at the heading, and a sh**load of malpractice insurance. lol. We are here to discuss. And occassionally we share our insights with those that have questions. It's entertainment. Nothing more. ~Jackal

If anyone has any doubts about the validity of my statement, you might ask the webmaster exactly what role this forum has. JNC

All we can do is offer our opinion.

Everyone judges. You do. You judge skeptics.

The role of this forum. Discuss. Not blindly beleive. There are plenty of blind belief sites.

[NoahJaymes]

All we can do is offer our opinion.

Everyone judges. You do. You judge skeptics.

The role of this forum. Discuss. Not blindly beleive. There are plenty of blind belief sites.

Exactly

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Hello JackalnChainz, nice thread but darn it you beat me to a thread I was thinking about doing on the this topic. Oh well!

Read OP before you get all bent cracked me up!

Honest debunking and skepticism is IMHO necessary to determine the source of a disturbance. Debunking isn't attacking nor is skepticism a terrible thing, asking questions is the only way to get answers. I feel that it's obvious, how questions are asked or statements made the intent of the poster for example- 'you're delusional' 'freaking grow up' etc. types of comments are clearly indicative (at least to me) that the person who posts such comments isn't contributing to anything other than their own ego. It's also my belief that EGOS should be checked at the door. No one is infallible, no ones opinion is the end all be all of answers, mine included. LOL! I'm here to learn as much as share!

SP, paredolia or any other buzz word shouldn't be used as a blanket term/s to wrap experiences up in. If the terms are used in that fashion to dismiss without the experience being fully investigated/examined for it's own merit isn't good reasoning. Yet the same should be said for assuming all things without proper investigation are paranormal just because it resembles an individuals experience.

Dispensing medical advice is prohibited on this board yet suggesting that someone seek medical aid is important to do if for no other reason than it is a responsible thing to do besides it does rule it out or in as the case may be. This isn't the same thing as a veiled snark of 'seek help' either.

Without getting into the whole 'orb' debate (LOL) if it is repeatable under known repeatable conditions I would have to say that it would have to be ruled out as evidence.

Jackal not to bait you or anything but honestly no one should care what your 'street cred' is. It doesn't matter a bit how many experiences any of us have or had, how many 'investigations' any of us have been on or not, it's not 'our' experience that we are examining when we are looking at another's story. Sure it will play a part of how we respond but their experience isn't our experience. (I hope that made sense.) Say for sake of argument; a person has an experience where they've seen something float by them, if another person feels that was how their 'haunting' started they may state it when in reality the OP may have an eye condition where a 'floater' passes across the retina. <a href="http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/spotsfloats.htm" target="_blank">http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/spotsfloats.htm</a> Now maybe they've never had an eye examination or heard of the condition telling them that they are 'haunted' because 'I've been through it' is irresponsible and assuming facts about the OP experience based on their own and not evidence.

And again I apologize if I offend, but unless you have a background in medicine (which I don't either) you aren't qualified to determine how a person who is suffering from a mental disorder may cause harm to themselves or if it was a bite mark on the person. It may have been a self-inflicted wound that mimicked a bite wound. Now if you say that you saw this bite mark form in front of you.. that's a whole other kettle of fish... but don't be surprised if I ask you bunches of questions! LOL!

I do feel that if a person investigates an experience and goes into it with 'it's all rubbish' or 'I believe everything' attitude they can generate explanations to cover their opinion. That's why I believe the middle way, go in look for logical explanations to debunk and escalate as needed.

LOL! I agree with your summation! Respect is key! I like that there are varied interpretations of an experience (excluding the drive-by trolls), it allows for the OP and all of us really to learn/expand our knowledge base.

Oh and while I'm thinking of it you asked how to separate out the different parts to quote. Click and highlight the portion of the post that you want to pull out and then while it's highlighted go to the top of the text window and you'll see a icon that looks like a cartoon quote balloon, it is located below the pull-down fonts, next to the last button. Click that and it will wrap that highlighted portion in quote tags. Just make sure that your quote tags match or it won't let you post. It takes some time to edit but once you get the hang of it, it's really very useful!

Regards,

Mabon.

Danged ol' typos...

Exactly.

As for respect. I think skeptics give more respect than they get.

[NoahJaymes]

Exactly.

As for respect. I think skeptics give more respect than they get.

Again, agreed

[JustNormal]

TAPS didn't coin the word, they made it popular. It's a two way street JN. Just as you question our ability to debunk claims, who are we to prove their claims are there. By stating, yep, that sounds like a ghost to me? If I see a clear cut case of it being a natural occurance or explainable, I will state so and why I think so. I will be the last person to say anything is paranormal without absolute certainity of such.

I am a believer, so don't get this twisted, but just because someone comes on here and posts something they have experienced, doesn't automatically rule in favor of paranormal. If someone is asking a question on what they experienced it, we ask questions back, if we can get to the end result of solving the problem logically, DEBUNKED.

--Tis All

Hi EnJay, I know they didnt coin the phrase, but they "can" debunk if they want, because they have the evidence to either prove or disprove right in front of them, we dont. The word is used too often on here, regarding someone's story, we cant debunk anything, either we agree or disagree, or ask more questions. That is what makes this place so much differences of opinions and discussing the whys, whose, and whens etc. We have all had our experiences and its fun to share or use that experience to share with others..JN

[AngelXVI]

None of us debunked our experiences before we posted them, why are newbies any different..

I try to debunk mine... but unfortunately I can't.. I looked for logic first before I posted and couldn't come up with anything...

[Fluffybunny]

I try to debunk mine... but unfortunately I can't.. I looked for logic first before I posted and couldn't come up with anything...

That I think is a good way to go about it...try to rule out the normal options before turning to the paranormal ones...

Just an FYI... I have removed a few posts regarding an argument that didnt need to be in the middle of the topic and would only serve to distract this thread.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Fluffybunny

[NoahJaymes]

Good call FB.

And I too agree with Angels post

[JustNormal]

I try to debunk mine... but unfortunately I can't.. I looked for logic first before I posted and couldn't come up with anything...

Same here Angel..JN

[Veliska]

If there was a logical explaination for everything then there wouldn't be (Paranormal) Also SP and other disorders, does NOT cover all the FACTS. Yes I have heard of people actually being physically harmed by demonic activity. Scratched and bitten...so why rule these people out?? I would be very ticked off if a doc tells me that I am just imaging things and that the marks are coming from either myself or from someone else.

[JustNormal]

If there was a logical explaination for everything then there wouldn't be (Paranormal) Also SP and other disorders, does NOT cover all the FACTS. Yes I have heard of people actually being physically harmed by demonic activity. Scratched and bitten...so why rule these people out?? I would be very ticked off if a doc tells me that I am just imaging things and that the marks are coming from either myself or from someone else.

Good post, and yes that is why its called "para" normal. I saw my primary care physician numerous times for injuries, plus 3 ER visits, one MRI of my little brain, and 2 visual exams, and 2 Psychological evaluations, all gave me a clean bill of health. I dont know why people who have never been thru it or studied it can rule out any of it. As far as SP it is called a sleep disorder by the medical field and the old hag syndrome type thing, from paranormal writings. Go figure V..JN

[JustNormal]

We can never draw the line. I agree with SS that if people want to believe its paranormal, they will regardless of what anyone says.

It seems as though people are more acceptable to paranormal explanations than someone offering logical explanations. Nobody ever wants to hallucinate, unless they pay good money for it.

Hi Enjay, what does the paranormal have to do with hallucinations? You yourself explained you knew all about poltergeiest hauntings and had one yourself, but I never saw one person call you on it, or degrade or judge you. There IS a line, that some should not cross, and maybe it takes longer for some to understand than others..JN

[JackalnChainz]

I think any reasonable adult would have tried to debunk it themselves before posting! I am not knowledgeable in the SP field so I tend to leave it alone and besides I don't think its a good idea to diagnose people on UM... I will just tell them to seek medical advice and pray which covers both options...

On the other hand the younger posters... If something doesn't sound right or post are highly dramatized I will look at their profile, check their age and see what other threads they have started... i.e. if they have posted a topic on I have seen the lockness monster... then this tells me they have a very active imagination.

When you've been down every avenue to try and debunk something and that doesn't work the only thing left is the paranormal... You try and research what it is your experiencing... In the end I don't think anyone will know for sure and I guess it will always be a mystery...

To be on a forum like this I think you need some what of a open mind... The rules of the paranormal are not set in stone.

Angel

I agree with this 100%. And it brings to mind a very important part of any investigatory procedure...the demeanor of the complaintent or reporting party. It can't hurt (before expressing any serious theory), to check the profile of the OP beforehand. Especially if there is any doubt of maturity or age considerations. Good post Angel! ~Jackal

[SS79]

Hi Enjay, what does the paranormal have to do with hallucinations? You yourself explained you knew all about poltergeiest hauntings and had one yourself, but I never saw one person call you on it, or degrade or judge you. There IS a line, that some should not cross, and maybe it takes longer for some to understand than others..JN

Really? where did enjay say he had a poltergeist haunting . id like to read it ?

could you link it for me i cant seem to find it in his posts

Blessings SS79 x x x

[JackalnChainz]

Jackal not to bait you or anything but honestly no one should care what your 'street cred' is.

Regards,

Mabon.

No offense taken. Nice post. I disagree with the credentials part, however we are of the same mind when it comes to respecting others opinions. ~Jackal

[JackalnChainz]

Hi EnJay, I know they didnt coin the phrase, but they "can" debunk if they want, because they have the evidence to either prove or disprove right in front of them, we dont. The word is used too often on here, regarding someone's story, we cant debunk anything, either we agree or disagree, or ask more questions. That is what makes this place so much differences of opinions and discussing the whys, whose, and whens etc. We have all had our experiences and its fun to share or use that experience to share with others..JN

This post is addressing the true nature and point of this thread. Being internet "bound" we are powerless to do more than draw mental conclusions without any real physical investigatory intervention. This is why I disagreed with Mabon regarding street creds....that's all we have in here. All we have to bring our own minds to any kind of resolution, is our past experiences, as we are not at the actual scene of the disturbance to view fresh evidence and conduct and uninhibited investigation.

That is why it is a waste of time (this is a sarcastic overdramatization). Because, even if it matches 100% of the criteria for a sleep disorder, it doesn't mean that the victim isn't actually being attacked. And visa versa....if it plainly appears like a particular style haunting, it doesn't mean the victim isn't experiencing floaters or some other easily rectified medical malady. Nothing is absolute in this forum, and all we have to go on is our experience. The real rendering of justice in my opinion, is to lend an open minded ear, and tell the truth. The delivery of your message may need to be padded on occassion, due to the age or maturity of the OP. But even if we are sure, we can not be. Even a doctor would tell you that, without an x-ray or invasive probe, he can not be sure until he opens you up. There are too many extenuating circumstances that cloud the issue, or the true nature of the disturbance (where we are concerned).

Of course this doesn't impede us from trying. But we must be aware (when some of us are so sure) that nothing is absolute, and anything is possible. Nice post JN...well done. ~Jackal