Why Debunking and Offensive Posturing is a Wa

[JackalnChainz]

I have seen several posts where it was said that it is very irresponsible to give paranormal explanations when the problem could be a simple medical one. The posts seem to insinuate that scaring the victim is unnecessary. Scaring the victim is not anyones intent (almost anyone). People enter this forum to tell their stories and ask questions. Withholding your opinion is tantamount to lieing outright.

If you are a believer in the paranormal, and especially demonics, then this is our contention; it is dangerous as well to offer medical advise and solutions and dismiss the paranormal card. Here's why....

(keeping in mind, this is a believers perspective). The victim is experiencing the most horror filled SP symptoms, and I say it is a demon, and you say it is SP. Which is more dangerous? If the victim belives they are haunted by a demon, they will seek out clergy, possibly a paranormal investigator, and a medical doctor, to address the problem thoroughly. If they do not seek medical advise in conjunction with the intervention of the clergy, then the worst that can happen (if it is indeed SP) is continued symptomatic sleep disturbances. However....

to a believer, if they seek out the advise of a doctor because they believe the problem is all in their mind, the consequences could be mortal. To those of us that have specialized in this field (and I really don't want to enter a demon/religion debate) understand that it is the final goal of the demonic. So we view it as much more dangerous to ignore the paranormal condition, than it is the psychological condition. And ideally, and as I have ALWAYS MAINTAINED...both avenues should be explored. ~Jackal

[SS79]

The victim is experiencing the most horror filled SP symptoms, and I say it is a demon, and you say it is SP. Which is more dangerous? If the victim belives they are haunted by a demon, they will seek out clergy, possibly a paranormal investigator, and a medical doctor, to address the problem thoroughly. If they do not seek medical advise in conjunction with the intervention of the clergy, then the worst that can happen (if it is indeed SP) is continued symptomatic sleep disturbances. However....to a believer, if they seek out the advise of a doctor because they believe the problem is all in their mind, the consequences could be mortal. To those of us that have specialized in this field (and I really don't want to enter a demon/religion debate) understand that it is the final goal of the demonic. So we view it as much more dangerous to ignore the paranormal condition, than it is the psychological condition. And ideally, and as I have ALWAYS MAINTAINED...both avenues should be explored. ~Jackal

Jackal i pretty much agree with your post . i just want to give you my perspective and why i think a paranormal conclusion to soon can be counterproductive

No one is dismissing the paranormal at all . but again it comes down to looking for the logical first . Some don't do this or dismiss it and that whats dangerous IMO . No one is saying that all paranormal events are SP just some cases we hear have the classic symptoms . Its like telling someone with all the symptoms of a common cold that in fact they are possesed and that slime coming out there nose is really ectoplasm LOL okay well maybe not but you see my point LOL i reckon theres a few i could convince of that too

now what does the most harm telling someone who is suffering from it that they may have a demon or that in fact its a well known medical condition and is nothing to be afraid of . heres my view of it .

Once you have an SP sufferer come onto these boards and you turn to them and say its ok its normal . you are taking some of that fear away . but you mention demons and there fear just trebled thats the problem . because wether they believe in demons or not. they now may think this is correct and to you it may be . but for them it may never have been an issue . but all of a sudden due to what they experienced and someone giving them this advice its become a very real possibility in their mind .

IMO the main problem with SP is fear . take away that fear and what have you got .

The worst that can happen if they ignore the medical route is that it could well be sleep apnoe which can kill or it could be assocaited with narcolepsy. and the fact that insinuating paranormal here could cause it too escalate because of what i just stated above about people who don't understand what it is all of a sudden fearing something that they have no reason too . so the next time it happens they are expecting the worst . and we all know that usually if you perceive something to be bad it will often end up that way .

I suffered SP a long time before i knew what it was . i saw all sorts during sleep paralysis . shadow men . alien like creatures . swarms of bees . spiders . you name it i saw it and i was petrified . but you know what and this is very true as soon as i was told it was just in my mind and SP was a medical condition that fear of it went away .so it really is a case here of knowledge is power. i relaxed in fact it became fun . Now i try to induce it . but guess what funnily enough when you want something it doesn't come quite so often .

I do understand your point that to the believers of demons its a big mistake to ignore it and as i said before it works both ways i agree on that .just caution should be excersized in the way in which we say they may have something of this nature and make sure theres enough activity to warrant coming to that conclusion .

Blessings SS79 x x x

MY OPINION ONLY

[Pythia]

Great Post Spriritual!!!! I completely agree, you took the words out of my mouth.

Edited to add: I'm still trying to figure out what this thread is about exactly.

Am I being told, how I shoud and shouldn't post?

And why am I being told how I should and shouldn't post? (By someone who is not a mod)

Better yet, why am I being told that posting about demons as an explanation for the paranormal, is so much better than posting about medical or scientific reasons as an explanation for the paranormal?

Maybe I'm just confused.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Jennie 1

[JackalnChainz]

Well, I feel as though some of you are trying to prohibit my posts. And myself and a handful of others always address both sides of the issue. As a matter of fact, as we speak, you can go to the MY NEW APARTMENT thread, POST #21 ( http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=112525 ) and see what I posted. I understand not everyone is as multi-faceted. But they are going to post as well, as is the point of this forum. This is not Sleep Paralysis Times. I am sympathetic to your reasoning. I have never experienced it myself. I can imagine it would be terrifying. I see no harm in tossing about some holy water if they choose to do so. Or burning some sage or saying a few prayers. I always recommend a physician in addition to the paranormal aspects investigated. But I will continue to voice my opinion, as will everyone else in this forum. If someone views it as irresponsible, I don't care. They need to look at the sign on the door.

I do see your point about removing the fear. Unfortunately, I don't see how that can be accomplished in this forum. We are here to discuss the paranormal...specifically "Ghosts, Hauntings & The Paranormal". I don't see SP anywhere in that title, even though I acknowledge the validity of the prognosis. I know very little about it and certainly not enough to expound on. But I do know the paranormal...and that is what I am here to discuss. ~Jackal

ps... I agree to disagree

Edited November 30, 2007 by JackalnChainz

[JustNormal]

Well, I feel as though some of you are trying to prohibit my posts. And myself and a handful of others always address both sides of the issue. As a matter of fact, as we speak, you can go to the MY NEW APARTMENT thread and see what I posted. I understand not everyone is as multi-faceted. But they are going to post as well, as is the point of this forum. This is not Sleep Paralysis Times. I am sympathetic to your reasoning. I have never experienced it myself. I can imagine it would be terrifying. I see no harm in tossing about some holy water if they choose to do so. Or burning some sage or saying a few prayers. I always recommend a physician in addition to the paranormal aspects investigated. But I will continue to voice my opinion, as will everyone else in this forum. If someone views it as irresponsible, I don't care. They need to look at the sign on the door.

I do see your point about removing the fear. Unfortunately, I don't see how that can be accomplished in this forum. We are here to discuss the paranormal...specifically "Ghosts, Hauntings & The Paranormal". I don't see SP anywhere in that title, even though I acknowledge the validity of the prognosis. I know very little about it and certainly not enough to expound on. But I do know the paranormal...and that is what I am here to discuss. ~Jackal

ps... I agree to disagree

Great post, you are so good worth words unlike myself. When reading other posts on here, I rest my case, because to me it makes perfect sense. People ask, we answer to the best of our knowledge..JN

Edited November 30, 2007 by JustNormal

[SS79]

Well, I feel as though some of you are trying to prohibit my posts. And myself and a handful of others always address both sides of the issue. As a matter of fact, as we speak, you can go to the MY NEW APARTMENT thread and see what I posted. I understand not everyone is as multi-faceted. But they are going to post as well, as is the point of this forum. This is not Sleep Paralysis Times. I am sympathetic to your reasoning. I have never experienced it myself. I can imagine it would be terrifying. I see no harm in tossing about some holy water if they choose to do so. Or burning some sage or saying a few prayers. I always recommend a physician in addition to the paranormal aspects investigated. But I will continue to voice my opinion, as will everyone else in this forum. If someone views it as irresponsible, I don't care. They need to look at the sign on the door.

I do see your point about removing the fear. Unfortunately, I don't see how that can be accomplished in this forum. We are here to discuss the paranormal...specifically "Ghosts, Hauntings & The Paranormal". I don't see SP anywhere in that title, even though I acknowledge the validity of the prognosis. I know very little about it and certainly not enough to expound on. But I do know the paranormal...and that is what I am here to discuss. ~Jackal

ps... I agree to disagree

Jackal it wasn't aimed at you again a generalization made about why i think somethings we all say can be counterproductive . No one is prohibiting your posts at all . i Only brought up SP because you did LOL .

,.specifically "Ghosts, Hauntings & The Paranormal". I don't see SP anywhere in that title,

exactly . thats cause it isn't paranormal LOL IMO of course . so once people understand this we can spend more time looking at the genuine posts of ghosts / demons /spirits

Blessings SS79 x x x

agreed on the disagreeing too

Edited November 30, 2007 by spiritual_soul79

[JustNormal]

This post is addressing the true nature and point of this thread. Being internet "bound" we are powerless to do more than draw mental conclusions without any real physical investigatory intervention. This is why I disagreed with Mabon regarding street creds....that's all we have in here. All we have to bring our own minds to any kind of resolution, is our past experiences, as we are not at the actual scene of the disturbance to view fresh evidence and conduct and uninhibited investigation.

That is why it is a waste of time (this is a sarcastic overdramatization). Because, even if it matches 100% of the criteria for a sleep disorder, it doesn't mean that the victim isn't actually being attacked. And visa versa....if it plainly appears like a particular style haunting, it doesn't mean the victim isn't experiencing floaters or some other easily rectified medical malady. Nothing is absolute in this forum, and all we have to go on is our experience. The real rendering of justice in my opinion, is to lend an open minded ear, and tell the truth. The delivery of your message may need to be padded on occassion, due to the age or maturity of the OP. But even if we are sure, we can not be. Even a doctor would tell you that, without an x-ray or invasive probe, he can not be sure until he opens you up. There are too many extenuating circumstances that cloud the issue, or the true nature of the disturbance (where we are concerned).

Of course this doesn't impede us from trying. But we must be aware (when some of us are so sure) that nothing is absolute, and anything is possible. Nice post JN...well done. ~Jackal

Thanks, my friend..JN-

[SS79]

Great Post Spriritual!!!! I completely agree, you took the words out of my mouth.

Edited to add: I'm still trying to figure out what this thread is about exactly.

Am I being told, how I shoud and shouldn't post?

And why am I being told how I should and shouldn't post? (By someone who is not a mod)

Better yet, why am I being told that posting about demons as an explanation for the paranormal, is so much better than posting about medical or scientific reasons as an explanation for the paranormal?

Maybe I'm just confused.

Thanks jenny

Ps im always confused . i find it odd if im not

[NoahJaymes]

Hi Enjay, what does the paranormal have to do with hallucinations? You yourself explained you knew all about poltergeiest hauntings and had one yourself, but I never saw one person call you on it, or degrade or judge you. There IS a line, that some should not cross, and maybe it takes longer for some to understand than others..JN

Hmm, thats quite odd, I do not remember this. Can you link me?

Someone putting words in my mouth?

Edited November 30, 2007 by EnJay

[JackalnChainz]

Hmm, thats quite odd, I do not remember this. Can you link me?

Someone putting words in my mouth?

Fish consumption is directly related to memory retention. I'm seeing a pattern here.

Edited November 30, 2007 by JackalnChainz

[NoahJaymes]

LOL. However I know what I did, or didn't say.

[JackalnChainz]

Great Post Spriritual!!!! I completely agree, you took the words out of my mouth.

Edited to add: I'm still trying to figure out what this thread is about exactly.

Am I being told, how I shoud and shouldn't post?

And why am I being told how I should and shouldn't post? (By someone who is not a mod)

Better yet, why am I being told that posting about demons as an explanation for the paranormal, is so much better than posting about medical or scientific reasons as an explanation for the paranormal?

Maybe I'm just confused.

you are very very confused. lol.

[Belle.]

I think Jackal is saying we should show each other and new OPs more respect (which is totally reasonable and good). Because the same slightly personal arguements from a few of you intrude into most of the threads.

But then this thread got a bit personal again so maybe I am confused too!

Edited November 30, 2007 by Betsy

[Lilly]

Great Post Spriritual!!!! I completely agree, you took the words out of my mouth.

Edited to add: I'm still trying to figure out what this thread is about exactly.

Am I being told, how I shoud and shouldn't post?

And why am I being told how I should and shouldn't post? (By someone who is not a mod)

Better yet, why am I being told that posting about demons as an explanation for the paranormal, is so much better than posting about medical or scientific reasons as an explanation for the paranormal?

Maybe I'm just confused.

you are very very confused. lol.

Could be because this is really rather confusing?

1) Please refrain from giving out any advice that could be termed 'medical advice'. In any situation that seems to be a of a health/safety issue everyone should contact a health professional. An internet message board is not the place for this type of thing.

See rules here:

2i. Medical advice: Do not use the forum to request medical assistance; while some visitors will offer their opinions on a medical question in an attempt to help out, most are not qualified to assist you and you are always best to seek the advice of your doctor. Discussions pertaining to medical topics, discoveries and research are acceptable so long as they avoid recommending treatments to specific members. Similarly, promoting or recommending alternative medications to visitors such as vitamin mega dosing, prescription drug abuse, white powder of gold, psychic experience inducing drugs or anything similar is disallowed.

2) Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. This goes for thinking that some paranormal things might of psychological or cultural origins as well. The best way to discuss such issues is to focus on the evidence available. Do not focus on anyone personally, focus on the merits of the discussion/debate. Another way of saying this is: focus on a person's argument, not them personally.

3) Finally, any discussion that appears to be based on some sort of 'personal agenda' (or degenerates into a personal agenda) is not allowed.

See rules here:

2h. Agenda posting: Do not use the forum to promote an agenda. This often involves the starting of threads or making posts which appear to be legitimate in nature but which are aimed at surreptitiously promoting some political view, religious belief or to attack or criticise other members, beliefs or views in an underhand manor which detracts from unbiased and fair discussion.

In closing, this thread appears to be walking the line here. If there is strong evidence that supports one hypothesis over another....saying that this is the case is not the same thing as *attacking* someone personally. To do this would constitute " surreptitiously promoting some political view, religious belief or to attack or criticise other members, beliefs or views in an underhand manor which detracts from unbiased and fair discussion."

Thanks,

Lilly

[JackalnChainz]

Hiya Lilly. SS and myself tend to discuss the issue from seperate view points, but our aims are absolutely the same. It may appear to someone who is just arriving that we are engaged in an argument, but she and myself have a pretty good understanding and often smile and insert phrases so we know the other means no trespass, and it is simply a spirited debate. All is well, and I appreciate a mod checking in on us. I have never witnessed anyone (and I think everyone involved would back me up on this) giving out medical "advise", other than to offer a prognosis from the information attained, and recommend the OP seek the advise of a physician. I'm sorry if you misunderstood our intent. But as I mentioned, there are a few of us here that may appear to be squabbling like brothers and sisters, but that is due to a relaxed atmosphere, and a relationship of mutual respect. There are no ill feelings here that I am aware of. Thanks again...~Jackal

ps. we will return to the normal topic and refrain from line walking for the benefit of everyone.

Edited November 30, 2007 by JackalnChainz

[JackalnChainz]

I think Jackal is saying we should show each other and new OPs more respect (which is totally reasonable and good). Because the same slightly personal arguements from a few of you intrude into most of the threads.

But then this thread got a bit personal again so maybe I am confused too!

You are exactly correct. I'm not really sure what Jen is referring to, hence my post. But everything is cool here...yep. Thanks Betsy, ~Jackal

[Lilly]

Actually, what I'm attempting to point out can be exemplified by Carcharoth's post back here.

That is obviously true, as supernatural phenomena still defies any rational explanation (in the future we might know more about certain phenomena to know how and why they happen). Anyway, I was not talking specifically about sleep paralysis or orbs, but about the whole spectrum of cases, from UFOs to sea monster sightings. That's why I'd say in most cases (not mentioning any specific category, mind you), the most reasonable explanations are the most likely ones. But, if there should be no debunking here, what should we do here then? Should we all pat ourselves on our collective backs and agree that all stories and photos that are posted here are obviously unexplainable and bulletproof evidence of supernatural happenings?

In order for discussion to take place one has to tolerate dissenting opinions, including those of a so-called 'debunking' nature, including those of a so-called 'believing' nature. See what I mean?

[JackalnChainz]

Actually, what I'm attempting to point out can be exemplified by Carcharoth's post back here.

In order for discussion to take place one has to tolerate dissenting opinions, including those of a so-called 'debunking' nature, including those of a so-called 'believing' nature. See what I mean?

Totally. Well said. And I'll reiterate, I always believe that the issue should be looked at from all angles, and everyones opinion is pertinent. Thanks again. ~Jackal

[JackalnChainz]

Great Post Spriritual!!!! I completely agree, you took the words out of my mouth.

Edited to add: I'm still trying to figure out what this thread is about exactly.

Am I being told, how I shoud and shouldn't post?

And why am I being told how I should and shouldn't post? (By someone who is not a mod)

Better yet, why am I being told that posting about demons as an explanation for the paranormal, is so much better than posting about medical or scientific reasons as an explanation for the paranormal?

Maybe I'm just confused.

Jennie, the thread is really just about this....

Regardless of the assurity one has in their prognosis of the affliction the OP is enduring, we can absolutely be sure that we do not have enough data for an informed decission, and that nothing is absolute and anything is possible, no matter how it appears. We were just using SP as an example. Here's another. Just because someone suffers from a mental illness, does not mean that a ghost isn't actually slapping them around at night. We are not there. We do not know for sure. All avenues should be explored. That is the cruxt of it.

We then went into delivery methods, but the context of the thread remains the same. Without actually being there, nobody knows for sure what the nature of the malady is.

Then at one point we were discussing that offering misinformation could be damaging. I see no real reason to address it again, because I maintain that we do not know what is and isn't misinformation without actually physically examining the scene and the OP. We agreed to disagree and moved on.

Then I had to actually work for a little while. lol.

I think that's it in a nutshell. It's about time you got here. Have you been milling around the UFO room again? lol. ~Jackal

Edited November 30, 2007 by JackalnChainz

[Shalott]

So... this means no more disclaimers? something comes along - if you think it's paranormal, you say so, or if you think it's scientific/medical, you say so. Am I getting it right? that we can all post what we want, as we want, we just should show some respect towards others beliefs and acknowledge that they are trying to help to the best of their knowledge. If someone appears misinformed, then we may turn to healthy discussion, but posts such as "you're a tool for believing" or "this is a paranormal thread so go away" are rude and a waste of time, and respect should go both ways. Just trying to clarify what I'm understanding from this thread cause there seems to be confusion amongst the masses

[JackalnChainz]

So... this means no more disclaimers? something comes along - if you think it's paranormal, you say so, or if you think it's scientific/medical, you say so. Am I getting it right? that we can all post what we want, as we want, we just should show some respect towards others beliefs and acknowledge that they are trying to help to the best of their knowledge. If someone appears misinformed, then we may turn to healthy discussion, but posts such as "you're a tool for believing" or "this is a paranormal thread so go away" are rude and a waste of time, and respect should go both ways. Just trying to clarify what I'm understanding from this thread cause there seems to be confusion amongst the masses

You MUST be clairvoyant! Hhahaha! Where ya been? Glad you could make it! ~Jackal

[Shalott]

haha thanks! had a long shift at work and my brain has decided to switch off, I think that post took the last of my energy

[JackalnChainz]

haha thanks! had a long shift at work and my brain has decided to switch off, I think that post took the last of my energy

Get some rest and we'll talk later. Goodnight my friend. ~Jackal

[Shalott]

I shall nighty night Jackal

[Mabon]

No offense taken. Nice post. I disagree with the credentials part, however we are of the same mind when it comes to respecting others opinions. ~Jackal

Thank you! I really didn't mean for it to be a swipe!

Now maybe they've never had an eye examination or heard of the condition telling them that they are 'haunted' because 'I've been through it' is irresponsible and assuming facts about the OP experience based on their own and not evidence.-Mabon

The bold portion was my point about that. If it appeared that I insinuated you had done this it wasn't my intention. LOL! You had stated your argument/case and I was presenting mine.

Again IMHO, if a person posts a story they don't care that who has been where or done what, what that person's experience or lack of experience is, they care about what's happening to them. They are looking for something from validation of an experience to an alternative explanation to it being paranormal, no one else knows until the person has a chance to explain what their experience is and what they are seeking. I don't think unless the OP asks it's necessary to include in every post I'm a skeptic, I'm a believer or a respondents story. How a person answers the OP will declare the intention to that question. None of us are asked for our credentials (and I hope that I'm not opening another can of worms here) when we sign up to this forum.

Each individuals personal experiences will play a part of how they view an OP's story, it's human nature and there isn't a lot to do about that yet we all must try to remain impartial to respect, respond with the best information that each of us can give the OP. And I think you and I agree that it's good to give a well rounded response then allowing the OP to draw their own conclusions.

Regards,

Mabon.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Mabon