Why Debunking and Offensive Posturing is a Wa

[JackalnChainz]

Why Debunking and Offensive Posturing is a Waste of Time

Read the OP before you get all bent

This is not to say that debunking, within the parameters of this forum, is a useless activity. Only that people should realize, that just because a viable and reasonable explanation is found, doesn't mean that it is the only and correct one. We have all witnessed the recent sleep disorder, Sleep paralysis, being attributed to almost everything presented in this forum, if in fact, the Op indicates the person was or had been asleep, or was near a bedroom or it was that time of night, etc etc. I have conceded, that although I know little about the disorder, it most likely is the answer to many of the cases presented in this forum. BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. It is statistically impossible. However, I trust my friends that are in the field of psychology, like Natalie, and yeild to their prognosis most often. I have a great deal of respect for our mental health professionals. But, although it may make the most sense, it doesn't necessarily make it so. Just because there is loose insulation in the attic and a crack in the ceiling, doesn't mean that is the only answer for an orb photograph. It is highly likely, but not the only possibility.

I think most of you realize because of my background, that I view demonics similar to the way I view the criminal element, and conducted my investigations thusly. In my minds eye, I can picture the devils, laughing, with a built in alibi waiting. All their handiwork is now attributed to mental disorders. I've even seen bite marks on the neck imputed to the victim. Ridiculous! Mental health therapy and medicinal solutions seem to be the answer to all of the things that go bump in the night. I'm not sure, however, that the OP was seeking advise from this perspective when they entered *Unexplained Mysteries*. They can find those answers in any book of Yellow Pages. But I do feel this perspective has a viable role in the path to a positive outcome.

Moreover, and in conclusion, I believe our individual contributions to those seeking answers should be in the context of suggestions, from insight and practical experience. I hardly see the need to debate among eachother, the validity of individual claims, as this is the role of the OP. And it also makes us appear without unity and at odds. If I agree with a post, I will so state. If I disagree with a post, I will also state this, and the reason why. I refuse to enter into a p***ing match with another UM member personally, regarding their theories. That is not to say that I won't become excited over their method of delivery, but I respect each persons opinion and their combined hypotheses in the over all solution seeking process. So with this in mind, it should be remembered, that a case isn't closed simply because a rational explanation is offered. Every avenue should be explored. Remember the bumper sticker...Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean someone isn't really watching you.

What do you think? ~Jackal

Edited November 29, 2007 by JackalnChainz

[JustNormal]

AMEN Jackal, I agree 100%.!!!

[glorybebe]

I agree, Jackal. I know that sleep paralysis is a scientific explanation for many instances, but not all. There are very strange things that happen that we may never know what the answers are, but, is not only interesting but fun to speculate. I also hate the "p***ing matches" if you don't agree with me doesn't mean that you specifically attack me. Does it really make someone feel better to belittle someone hundreds if not thousands of miles away? There is no reason for it. And yes, every avenue should be explored, is that not the scientific way? There have been many times when the scientific process has still come up with no plausible answer...and that is when it seems to me that there is way more out there than we can prove without a doubt, yet wonder what it is.

And once again, a great image accompanies your thread. I love it!

[Carcharoth]

There are cases that would be hard to explain without bringing in the supernatural, but wouldn't you agree that in most cases the most reasonable explanations are usually the correct ones?

[glorybebe]

Hey, you meanie, Jackal. LOL! You changed your image...it's nice, but the other one was really cool. IMO.

[MadMachine]

Sounds reasonable.

Most don't consider it a coincidence though, that sleep paralysis and mental disorders can perfectly imitate what many would call "demonic activity."

And that indeed, the existence of Demons has never been objectively proven. Everyone who believes in Demons has proof only for themselves.

[JustNormal]

There are cases that would be hard to explain without bringing in the supernatural, but wouldn't you agree that in most cases the most reasonable explanations are usually the correct ones?

I believe when it comes to the supernatural, "reasonable explanations" go right out the window, because when we discuss the paranormal and things that happen around us, for the most part there is no rational explanation. We tend to get alot of curious young people here, and we have to treat them delicately and the last thing we want to do is scare them. When lots of these kids say "they had a dream" or "they were in their bed, or going to sleep or waking" there is a chance it is SP but not when they are awake and up and about. People post photos of an area, and the orb haters and self appointed photographers laugh at the photos instead of keeping an open mind and discuss. I dont want to debunk or confirm anything, that is not my job yours or anyone else's..This should be a site where people can open up, and tell us things they cant tell their family or friends, and I try to keep that in mind. So, that and some respect, should make this place more pleasurable..JN

[glorybebe]

I believe when it comes to the supernatural, "reasonable explanations" go right out the window, because when we discuss the paranormal and things that happen around us, for the most part there is no rational explanation. We tend to get alot of curious young people here, and we have to treat them delicately and the last thing we want to do is scare them. When lots of these kids say "they had a dream" or "they were in their bed, or going to sleep or waking" there is a chance it is SP but not when they are awake and up and about. People post photos of an area, and the orb haters and self appointed photographers laugh at the photos instead of keeping an open mind and discuss. I dont want to debunk or confirm anything, that is not my job yours or anyone else's..This should be a site where people can open up, and tell us things they cant tell their family or friends, and I try to keep that in mind. So, that and some respect, should make this place more pleasurable..JN

That's for sure! Couldn't have said it better myself, JN!

[NoahJaymes]

When it involves being online, the best bet is to state a logical explanation then bring forth other explanations. It's easier for us to say something is a medical disorder, or a natural occurance being online. We go by the OP's statement and why would we ever say, oh I think its demonic, or I really think its a haunting when we have no idea that is what it is. It's going by hear-say and no real way of investigating except to ask questions and sometimes it gets heated.

What it boils down to is not one persons opinion, but what another views as BS from another poster. "Jump the Gun" if you will. That is something I dislike and I am not afraid to admit. People who jump the gun without further exploring the details. The first reply should never be, its this, its that. Lets discuss it first and maybe around page 2 we can start saying well, It is a good possibility it is this, and post links to back your claims as mods have said before. If you are going to argue your point, back it up.

[JackalnChainz]

Sounds reasonable.

Most don't consider it a coincidence though, that sleep paralysis and mental disorders can perfectly imitate what many would call "demonic activity."

And that indeed, the existence of Demons has never been objectively proven. Everyone who believes in Demons has proof only for themselves.

I'll agree that most of the time, the most rational and reasonable answer tends to be the correct one. I believe that is a theory called Ockhams Razor.

But let me present this possibility. Since we really have little working knowledge of the brain in compared to its' myriad of fascinating functions, who is to say the the condition, which may well be caused by the chemical response in sleep paralysis, isn't halucinatory, but intitiating? Understanding the principles involved in the locking of motion etc, how do you know that this chemical response doesn't further open your senses to what you are actually seeing, but interpreting as a halucination? Natalie presented some fascinating halucinations, and very frightening if I may add. So detailed, that they hardly seem dream like, but more real. How do we know that our mind isn't expanded in those brief moments to admit these images that are occurring around us anyway? And it is all still a symptom of the sleep disorder. And how do you know for sure that that old man wasn't really scared to death by what was hovering over his bed, when he couldn't move or breath? You don't. Nobody does for sure. ~Jackal

[Carcharoth]

I believe when it comes to the supernatural, "reasonable explanations" go right out the window, because when we discuss the paranormal and things that happen around us, for the most part there is no rational explanation. We tend to get alot of curious young people here, and we have to treat them delicately and the last thing we want to do is scare them. When lots of these kids say "they had a dream" or "they were in their bed, or going to sleep or waking" there is a chance it is SP but not when they are awake and up and about. People post photos of an area, and the orb haters and self appointed photographers laugh at the photos instead of keeping an open mind and discuss. I dont want to debunk or confirm anything, that is not my job yours or anyone else's..This should be a site where people can open up, and tell us things they cant tell their family or friends, and I try to keep that in mind. So, that and some respect, should make this place more pleasurable..JN

That is obviously true, as supernatural phenomena still defies any rational explanation (in the future we might know more about certain phenomena to know how and why they happen). Anyway, I was not talking specifically about sleep paralysis or orbs, but about the whole spectrum of cases, from UFOs to sea monster sightings. That's why I'd say in most cases (not mentioning any specific category, mind you), the most reasonable explanations are the most likely ones. But, if there should be no debunking here, what should we do here then? Should we all pat ourselves on our collective backs and agree that all stories and photos that are posted here are obviously unexplainable and bulletproof evidence of supernatural happenings?

[glorybebe]

That is obviously true, as supernatural phenomena still defies any rational explanation (in the future we might know more about certain phenomena to know how and why they happen). Anyway, I was not talking specifically about sleep paralysis or orbs, but about the whole spectrum of cases, from UFOs to sea monster sightings. That's why I'd say in most cases (not mentioning any specific category, mind you), the most reasonable explanations are the most likely ones. But, if there should be no debunking here, what should we do here then? Should we all pat ourselves on our collective backs and agree that all stories and photos that are posted here are obviously unexplainable and bulletproof evidence of supernatural happenings?

For me, it's not about the debunking, but HOW the debunking is done. "you're a ****ing idiot" is not necessary. There are a lot of ways to disagree without the personal attacks.

Maybe part of why we come here, skeptics and believers alike is that we do want answers and validation. It is the what if of so many subjects that a lot of us find fascinating, and it is the comparing of things that we have seen or had happened to us that we want to compare with others.

[JackalnChainz]

When it involves being online, the best bet is to state a logical explanation then bring forth other explanations. It's easier for us to say something is a medical disorder, or a natural occurance being online. We go by the OP's statement and why would we ever say, oh I think its demonic, or I really think its a haunting when we have no idea that is what it is. It's going by hear-say and no real way of investigating except to ask questions and sometimes it gets heated.

What it boils down to is not one persons opinion, but what another views as BS from another poster. "Jump the Gun" if you will. That is something I dislike and I am not afraid to admit. People who jump the gun without further exploring the details. The first reply should never be, its this, its that. Lets discuss it first and maybe around page 2 we can start saying well, It is a good possibility it is this, and post links to back your claims as mods have said before. If you are going to argue your point, back it up.

My point is, arguing about an OPs presentation is unnecessary on so many levels. Respond to the OP with your theory. Not to others posts and your opinion of their opinion. It is ridiculous to badger one another in a thread that is presented most often by a total stranger. I feel like I've been drawn into an out of hand contest at the family barbeque where someone is going to be at least embarrassed, and possibly hurt. If I think it is a demon, you have no right to challenge it. If you think it is sleep paralysis, present your theory and I will respect that also. But the point of this thread my friend...is that, no matter how many possibilities are offered, paranormal or otherwise, it doesn't mean we have solved the problem, if there is one. We do not always have the right answer for everything. That is why this is UNEXPLAINED Mysteries. ~Jackal

Edited November 29, 2007 by JackalnChainz

[Carcharoth]

For me, it's not about the debunking, but HOW the debunking is done. "you're a ****ing idiot" is not necessary. There are a lot of ways to disagree without the personal attacks.

I agree with that. Telling someone that they're an idiot for believing in the man in the moon isn't going to help. Rationally explaining why there is no man in the moon is a way better solution. Insults can't get you further than rational explanations when trying to explain to people why something is not possible or does not exist.

[NoahJaymes]

I believe when it comes to the supernatural, "reasonable explanations" go right out the window, because when we discuss the paranormal and things that happen around us, for the most part there is no rational explanation. We tend to get alot of curious young people here, and we have to treat them delicately and the last thing we want to do is scare them. When lots of these kids say "they had a dream" or "they were in their bed, or going to sleep or waking" there is a chance it is SP but not when they are awake and up and about. People post photos of an area, and the orb haters and self appointed photographers laugh at the photos instead of keeping an open mind and discuss. I dont want to debunk or confirm anything, that is not my job yours or anyone else's..This should be a site where people can open up, and tell us things they cant tell their family or friends, and I try to keep that in mind. So, that and some respect, should make this place more pleasurable..JN

If we toss out all the reasonable explanations out the window, what are we left with? A forum full of unified paranormal happenings that we all should agree are paranormal? If something happens around us, that we can not at first explain, of course we are left scratching our heads. However it depends on the event in which we witnessed. If you see the door open and a lady in white enters, blows you a kiss and vanishes. Of course there is no reasonable explanation to that. However, if you are sitting there, and out of the corner of your eye you see a dark object move, you look nothing is there. Is that paranormal? Some may think so, I wouldn't.

[JackalnChainz]

Hey, you meanie, Jackal. LOL! You changed your image...it's nice, but the other one was really cool. IMO.

Sorry, I posted three...couldn't make up my mind...lol. I recently had an image and post removed I was told because it was too imposing, (even though I have posted it many times). So I try now to be very discriminating about what pics I post because of size and such. But thanks Gorgeous. I appreciate it. ~Jackal

[NoahJaymes]

My point is, arguing about an OPs presentation is unnecessary on so many levels. Respond to the OP with your theory. Not to others posts and your opinion of their opinion. It is ridiculous to badger one another in a thread that is presented most often by a total stranger. I feel like I've been drawn into an out of hand contest at the family barbeque where someone is going to be at least embarrassed, and possibly hurt. If I think it is a demon, you have no right to challenge it. If you think it is sleep paralysis, present your theory and I will respect that also. But the point of this thread my friend...is that, no matter how many possibilities are offered, paranormal or otherwise, it doesn't mean we have solved the problem, if there is one. We do not always have the right answer for everything. That is why this is UNEXPLAINED Mysteries. ~Jackal

This I agree with. You as well as I know that when someone disagrees it easily gets sidetracked. No way of preventing that with any kind of measure. NJ

[JackalnChainz]

For me, it's not about the debunking, but HOW the debunking is done. "you're a ****ing idiot" is not necessary. There are a lot of ways to disagree without the personal attacks.

Maybe part of why we come here, skeptics and believers alike is that we do want answers and validation. It is the what if of so many subjects that a lot of us find fascinating, and it is the comparing of things that we have seen or had happened to us that we want to compare with others.

I agree highly with this. But I would add one thing. As I have become a regular in this forum, (I'm here every night) and you all have come to know me, and my writings, and my beliefs, as I have come to know yours, I believe that we do tend to squabble like brothers and sisters, over the silliest things. My problem with it, is just don't do it in front of company! lol ~Jackal

Edited November 29, 2007 by JackalnChainz

[JustNormal]

If we toss out all the reasonable explanations out the window, what are we left with? A forum full of unified paranormal happenings that we all should agree are paranormal? If something happens around us, that we can not at first explain, of course we are left scratching our heads. However it depends on the event in which we witnessed. If you see the door open and a lady in white enters, blows you a kiss and vanishes. Of course there is no reasonable explanation to that. However, if you are sitting there, and out of the corner of your eye you see a dark object move, you look nothing is there. Is that paranormal? Some may think so, I wouldn't.

Sorry, if I didnt word that correctly EnJay. What I mean is, for example, some people have come here and posted a story with or without a photo, and too many times people make fun of them, or say "It cant be a ghost there is no such thing" or "I wouldnt worry about it, and words of that nature. Of course rational explanations are expected, it doesnt mean a war over what someone else posted. If someone feels its SP and another feels its paranormal, they are entitled to their beliefs without be called names, or judged. If someone posts a photo of something they think is paranormal who are we to discard it like yesterday's trash. I think everyone should post what they want without such massive criticism from others, its a basic concept. Many of us do see things out of our peripheral vision and none of us really knows if it is paranormal or just their eyes playing tricks, but there are SO many accounts of that. We rarely see spirits dead on, with the naked eye, but out of the corner and YES it could be paranormal..See, differences of opinion should be interesting and fun..JN

[Shalott]

Aw shucks Jackal you just had to mention me by name.. hehe

[JackalnChainz]

I believe when it comes to the supernatural, "reasonable explanations" go right out the window, because when we discuss the paranormal and things that happen around us, for the most part there is no rational explanation. We tend to get alot of curious young people here, and we have to treat them delicately and the last thing we want to do is scare them. When lots of these kids say "they had a dream" or "they were in their bed, or going to sleep or waking" there is a chance it is SP but not when they are awake and up and about. People post photos of an area, and the orb haters and self appointed photographers laugh at the photos instead of keeping an open mind and discuss. I dont want to debunk or confirm anything, that is not my job yours or anyone else's..This should be a site where people can open up, and tell us things they cant tell their family or friends, and I try to keep that in mind. So, that and some respect, should make this place more pleasurable..JN

I agree. And I have to admit, I don't always consider the age or demeanor of the OP, and I should. I tend to begin my analysis and present my theory regardless of other considerations, and I should be more careful. I also find, that as you stated it, can be reversed, in that often paranormal explanations are not considered and thrown out the window. It seems it is one extreme or the other. But in any case there is no need for hostilities. And even the most subtle stabs are recognized JN. lol. I f someone feels there is a ghost in there house, it should not be disputed, only offers of other explanations. I see dust. You see orbs. Someonelse sees ball lightning. I respect all the theories presented. And the fact is, we may all be wrong. But it's fun reading others conclusions and really trying to help the afflicted in the process, if we can. But that is not our fundemental goal. It is simply a byproduct of a fixed collective, where one can seek advise if they wish it. ~Jackal

[SS79]

Hi Jackal .

Good post . I agree with you about the arguing between each other is unnecessary . but ya know me. I have to say something LOL so here goes . This is not directed at you personally . general statements about the forum as a whole .in response to your observations.

This is not to say that debunking, within the parameters of this forum, is a useless activity. Only that people should realize, that just because a viable and reasonable explanation is found, doesn't mean that it is the only and correct one. We have all witnessed the recent sleep disorder, Sleep paralysis, being attributed to almost everything presented in this forum, if in fact, the Op indicates the person was or had been asleep, or was near a bedroom or it was that time of night, etc etc. I have conceded, that although I know little about the disorder, it most likely is the answer to many of the cases presented in this forum. BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

This forum is for everyone to post there views on what the OP states in their posts .if the op states something that we think is SP then i feel we should tell them this . what we have to remember is that people all over the world no matter where they are or what age , may not have heard of this condition and thus may think something paranormals going on .. I agree not all of them are sleep paralysis . but i also think some people dismiss it too easily .

I have a great deal of respect for our mental health professionals. But, although it may make the most sense, it doesn't necessarily make it so.

I think most of you realize because of my background, that I view demonics similar to the way I view the criminal element, and conducted my investigations thusly. In my minds eye, I can picture the devils, laughing, with a built in alibi waiting. All their handiwork is now attributed to mental disorders. I've even seen bite marks on the neck imputed to the victim. Ridiculous! Mental health therapy and medicinal solutions seem to be the answer to all of the things that go bump in the night. I'm not sure, however, that the OP was seeking advise from this perspective when they entered *Unexplained Mysteries*. They can find those answers in any book of Yellow Pages. But I do feel this perspective has a viable role in the path to a positive outcome.

I'd agree it doesn't make it so . but asking the questions is how we find out . Some may choose to get offended that the questions of mental health are asked but i feel they need asking . remember some people come here who are young and dont have a clue what mental ilnesses are or how they work . so they put everything down to paranormal when it could in fact be that they need genuine medical help .12 year olds don't tend to think "oh that shadow person could be my mind playing tricks on me or me having a condition" . they tend to jump to the ghost conclsion due to horror movies .books etc .

Moreover, and in conclusion, I believe our individual contributions to those seeking answers should be in the context of suggestions, from insight and practical experience. I hardly see the need to debate among each other, the validity of individual claims, as this is the role of the OP. And it also makes us appear without unity and at odds. If I agree with a post, I will so state. If I disagree with a post, I will also state this, and the reason why.

But where do we draw the line ?? so lets say someone comes in all scared and they get ten people offering them advice who think this person is haunted by a demon/ghost/spirit and 7 others offer a medical explanation and point them in the direction of the evidence that has been done and there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for it ,. problems usually start when they dismiss that evidence outright as impossible . thats when we have problems because its true some people want there experiences to be paranormal even if they aren't . so they will toss aside evidence put to them for a medical reason and accept the demon/ghost/shadow person aspect with little or no proof ,

This is evident all over UM . frankly i want all my experiences to be paranormal it would be great i'd have loads to talk about . i'd know that there was more to life than just this physical **** we put up with everyday, but sadly its not that simple .Ive had to chop all my experiences down to a mere handful because there have been logical explanations found for the others . it happens .

This is not a rant at all i actually agreed with the majority of your post .

However one thing i do have to say is this some people think that giving people a medical explanation is bad on this forum because it could be dangerous as the person will then dismiss the demon/spirit/ghost side and could leave themselves open . just remember that works both ways. Just as i don't think any of us are qualified to medically diagnose . i also dont think any of us are qualified enough or have enough background info on the OP to know that a demon is present either . Caution needs to be excersized on both sides . IMO .

Blessings SS79 x x x

My opinions only and not meant to demean nor offend in any way shape or form .

Edited November 29, 2007 by spiritual_soul79

[JackalnChainz]

Aw shucks Jackal you just had to mention me by name.. hehe

I'm sorry. I hold you in high regard. And frankly, your PM scared the hell outta me! ~Jackal

[NoahJaymes]

Blessings SS79 x x x

Good post, my thoughts exactly, you know..you really need to stop thinking like me, it can and will get dangerous lol

Edited November 29, 2007 by EnJay

[Shalott]

I'm sorry. I hold you in high regard. And frankly, your PM scared the hell outta me! ~Jackal

*evil laugh*