MID Posted March 10, 2012 #13726 Share Posted March 10, 2012 More images that only support my case. Support your case that it was impossible to bend knees in a pressurized Apollo suit...? Yes, I can see that. Have you got any images with deep knee bends to show me, or not? Oh, DEEP knee bends. Change the qualifuications again, aftter your case is trashed again, Huh? Turb. You now bore me with this going on about nothing. You go look through the hundreds and hundreds of photos, training, mission, etc. You can find anything you want. However, you won't, because you won't look. You'll ask us to do your homework, as you have many times, all the while imagining nonsense to "support" your non-position. Get a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaden Posted March 10, 2012 #13727 Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) You say "considerable effort" is needed for such flexibilty? Look at this clip... Hmm...not much effort is really needed, after all. "Fully flexible" - allows a joint to have complete range of motion. For example, the knee joint, The spacesuit's knee joints are fully flexible - they're able to fold and sit on their legs with ease. You must realize this, surely? See above. You seriously believe this image supports your case? Not close to the deep knee bends, as shown in the Apollo clips. Do you have any worthwhile points? You've no case at all, right now. I'm having a really hard time understanding what the poster is seeing that I am not. (or, rather, the other 'way around) two videos were posted showing what he claimed to be ease of movement, and yet I see two astronauts haveing great difficulty. In the first one we see the astronaut trying to use gravity to get the knee to bend sufficiently, and in the second, it is the stiffness of the suit that prevents him from regaining an upright posistiion. I can not see in any way, shape or fashion how this supports his opinion. Edited March 10, 2012 by Gaden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czero 101 Posted March 10, 2012 #13728 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Hey Turbs... What is this man doing in one of the production-model Apollo Lunar EVA suits that proves you wrong...? Cz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MID Posted March 10, 2012 #13729 Share Posted March 10, 2012 "Fully flexible" - allows a joint to have complete range of motion. For example, the knee joint, The spacesuit's knee joints are fully flexible - they're able to fold and sit on their legs with ease. You must realize this, surely? Fold and sit on their legs with ease? Certainly, you don't actually think about what you say before saying it, do you? What purpose would there be in folding one's legs and sitting on them? Who does that...other than a Japanese, or a practitioner of zen, or perhaps another Japanese discipline who assumes seiza for certain disciplines (seiza: a seated position, look it up.)? Somehow, I never saw an astronaut pick up rocks in such a position. Don't recall the requirement in specs to be able to assume seiza in an EVA suit. You're just posting. The things you say are senseless. Getting moreso every day. I just think you've exhausted everything you ever had, and simply must try to continue belaboring dead issues...issues you don't unerstand in the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MID Posted March 10, 2012 #13730 Share Posted March 10, 2012 You don't see the multiple tries he puts into it? Or how he has to have all his weight above him to bend the knees and how he uses the inherent stiffness of the suit as it extends the joints to help him stand up? Are you watching the same video? Fre... It's an old issue. Turb never did get the relationship between mass and weight. Charlie was moving around about 385 lbs of mass there. People didn't understand the effort required when that clip 1st started appearing here. Some still don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MID Posted March 10, 2012 #13731 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Much appreciated...(and fyi folks, I'm the new girl not guy) lol OH ! In that case, welcome to UM, M'aam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilly Posted March 10, 2012 #13732 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Indeed, mass is the measure of how much matter is in an object. The weight of something on the moon is less due to gravity being less. The mass of something, however, is still there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booNyzarC Posted March 10, 2012 #13733 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The Science Channel's documentary mini-series "Moon Machines" has an episode detailing the design and construction of the Apollo Space Suit. The DVD series is available from Amazon (which is where I got my copy of the set) and other retailers, and the episode is available on YouTube, split into 5 parts: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Cz Thanks for posting this Cz. Just watched it and really enjoyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MID Posted March 10, 2012 #13734 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Indeed, mass is the measure of how much matter is in an object. The weight of something on the moon is less due to gravity being less. The mass of something, however, is still there. Yea Lil, and that PLSS (backpack) weighed only about 20 lbs max on the Moon. But it caried over 100 lbs of mass when charlie went down on his front. UGH... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyeagle409 Posted March 10, 2012 #13735 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I'd bet that in his twisted interpretation, the clip he posted is further evidence of a hoax because he probably still contends that the actual space suits didn't have that flexibility. Of course, they did have that flexibility, but that won't sway him. Yes indeed, and perhaps he already knows that. Wouldn't it be a shock if he admitted that he was a moon walk believer and was just here to have some fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czero 101 Posted March 10, 2012 #13736 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Yes indeed, and perhaps he already knows that. Wouldn't it be a shock if he admitted that he was a moon walk believer and was just here to have some fun? There's about as much chance of that ever happening as there is of you ever admitting that you really don't believe that UFO's are visiting us (Roswell and all that) and are just here pulling our collective legs... Cz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyeagle409 Posted March 10, 2012 #13737 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Sure, the spacesuits were that flexible - because they weren't pressurized. The problem is that it can't be done in a pressurized spacesuit. which is required to be on the moon. So this must be a fake. Look at the knees. Now, what was that you were saying about the non-flexibility of pressurized spacesuits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyeagle409 Posted March 10, 2012 #13738 Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) There's about as much chance of that ever happening as there is of you ever admitting that you really don't believe that UFO's are visiting us (Roswell and all that) and are just here pulling our collective legs... Cz I think that he knows the real scoop. On another note, I am definitely not pulling any legs and all it took for me to get on the UFO track was my own sighting in 1968 in Vietnam, and what I have found over the decades has raised my eyebrows even further. Just about every base where I have been assigned PCS or sent TDY, overseas and stateside, has been involved in a UFO incident that involved super-maneuvering objects beyond our capabilities, and some incidents have not been reported. Edited March 10, 2012 by skyeagle409 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czero 101 Posted March 10, 2012 #13739 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I think that he knows the real scoop. We'll have to agree to disagree here. On another note, I am definitely not pulling any legs and all it took for me to get on the UFO track was my own sighting in 1968 in Vietnam, and what I have found over the decades has raised my eyebrows even further. Just about every base where I have been assigned PCS or sent TDY, overseas and stateside, has been involved in a UFO incident that involved super-maneuvering objects beyond our capabilities, and some incidents have not been reported. Yes, I think we all realize that. My comment was not intended to elicit any further off-topic UFO discussion from you in this forum. Cz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyeagle409 Posted March 10, 2012 #13740 Share Posted March 10, 2012 We'll have to agree to disagree here. I think that he understands enough of the evidence. He reminded me of a person on another message board many years ago who was impersonating Senator Barry Goldwater and was having fun with us until it became evident that he was unaware that Senator Goldwater was later admitted to a hospital. He soon disappeared after he was warned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MID Posted March 11, 2012 #13741 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) Look at the knees. Now, what was that you were saying about the non-flexibility of pressurized spacesuits? He don't know Sky! I don't think he realizes that no one could've ingressed, or egressed a Gemini spacecraft in a suit that didn't have movable joints. Just getting in and out required them! But still! He wants deep knee bends...or pictures of someone sitting on his legs in a suit! God... Edited March 11, 2012 by MID Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obviousman Posted March 11, 2012 #13742 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Look at the knees. Now, what was that you were saying about the non-flexibility of pressurized spacesuits? Sky, to be fair the early Gemini EVA suits (G4C) were tailored with the legs in a slightly bent position; most (if not all) pictures of them whilst inflated show the same knee bend. The Apollo suits, however, were designed with full mobility in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbonium Posted March 11, 2012 #13743 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Oh, DEEP knee bends. Change the qualifuications again, aftter your case is trashed again, Huh? Are you sure I've "changed the qualifications" on this? Let's review what I said, from the start.... I first brought it up in this post, from March 2. I posted a video clip, and commented on it... "Due to the fact it is impossible to bend one's knee like the astronaut does in a pressurized spacesuit." The clip shows an astronaut doing a deep knee bend So it was very clear what I meant, right from the start. If you'd bothered to review what I said on this, I wouldn't have to waste my time to prove your allegation is total nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbonium Posted March 11, 2012 #13744 Share Posted March 11, 2012 No, because both the video you've posted demonstrate the opposite. It is not easy for the astronauts to flex the knee joint beyond a certain angle, it seems to get more difficult. The evidence you're posting to support your claim actually proves that you're wrong in this assessment. It's obviously more difficult, because they have molded bellows at their knee joints! But they're still able to bend their knees as much, or near to, the full flex of a normal knee joint. If that's a pressurized suit, then I'm the King of Spain! I'm asking you to provide proof, or at the very least evidence, that it would be impossible for the astronaut to bend his knee in the manner shown, and you supply ANOTHER video of an astronaut bending his knee (albeit with some difficulty?) Do you know if joint flexion data exists for the Apollo spacesuit? I've seen a few documents that might be relevant, but I haven't gone through them yet. Looks like a 90 degree bend to me. In a pressurised spacesuit. So why is that possible, but a slightly larger angle isn't? Because of increased pressure, limiting (knee) joint flexion. It's still a problem with current spacesuit design, so obviously Apollo suits would be even less flexible. Further reading for you, and points to bear in mind:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRCt1V9qys0 Look at 3:45 onwards - thanks to CZero for that. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/A7LB_PGA_S71-2533.jpg http://history.nasa.gov/spacesuits.pdf I don't see any point from your clip or images. What is supposed to be relevant here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postbaguk Posted March 11, 2012 #13745 Share Posted March 11, 2012 It's obviously more difficult, because they have molded bellows at their knee joints! Folks, I think we're getting somewhere! But they're still able to bend their knees as much, or near to, the full flex of a normal knee joint. If that's a pressurized suit, then I'm the King of Spain! Sigh. Still waiting for the evidence that supports your uninformed opinion. Do you know if joint flexion data exists for the Apollo spacesuit? I've seen a few documents that might be relevant, but I haven't gone through them yet. Then I suggest you do your research first, THEN come to a conclusion based on that. Coming to a conclusion then cherry-picking evidence to suit your preconceived idea is little other than confirmation bias. Because of increased pressure, limiting (knee) joint flexion. It's still a problem with current spacesuit design, so obviously Apollo suits would be even less flexible. It's ALWAYS going to be a technical problem that needs to be overcome. Being modern doesn't mean that design difficulties just magically disappear. The Apollo suit worked, they could bend their knees to pick objects up, but that doesn't mean it was a perfect design. I don't see any point from your clip or images. What is supposed to be relevant here? Well, the first clip shows someone testing out the pressure suit for a range of motion, including deep knee bends. The second image shows a close-up of the pressure suit, clearly showing the bellows-type nature of the joints. The third PDF counters your claim that the suits were not designed with the limited range of motion you claim. Still waiting for some evidence that backs up your claim, rather than an argument from ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MID Posted March 11, 2012 #13746 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Are you sure I've "changed the qualifications" on this? Let's review what I said, from the start.... I first brought it up in this post, from March 2. I posted a video clip, and commented on it... "Due to the fact it is impossible to bend one's knee like the astronaut does in a pressurized spacesuit." The clip shows an astronaut doing a deep knee bend So it was very clear what I meant, right from the start. If you'd bothered to review what I said on this, I wouldn't have to waste my time to prove your allegation is total nonsense. Oh, Good! Then they could do a "complete" deep knee bend. Gee, I was hoping the engineering team had designed for that (Never noticed during the missions...must not have been paying attention ther!). ! Then there was the question about your requirement to be able to bend ones knees and sit on one's own legs in the suit. Strangely, I never heard anything in the form of answer to that. Of course, I didn't expect one. And you're using the term "nonsense"??? Good one!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czero 101 Posted March 11, 2012 #13747 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) If you'd bothered to review what I said on this, I wouldn't have to waste my time to prove your allegation is total nonsense. Hypocrite. If you'd bothered to watch the videos I've linked a few times now, we wouldn't have to waste our time reading still more of your willfully ignorant garbage. But then that's the thing... if you'd actually watched the videos, and addressed the images I have posted, then that would show that you weren't being willfully ignorant, that you were actually taking the time to learn something about the topic you're discussing... However, we know that's not how you roll, right, Turbs...? Care to address what is happening in this image: Cz Edited March 11, 2012 by Czero 101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MID Posted March 11, 2012 #13748 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Hypocrite.If you'd bothered to watch the videos I've linked a few times now, we wouldn't have to waste our time reading still more of your willfully ignorant garbage. But then that's the thing... if you'd actually watched the videos, and addressed the images I have posted, then that would show that you weren't being willfully ignorant, that you were actually taking the time to learn something about the topic you're discussing... However, we know that's not how you roll, right, Turbs...? Care to address what is happening in this image: Cz I'm gonna take a wild guess, Cz! I's say the knee joint articulation is being illustrated clearly in an Apollo EVA suit. Now of course, he's not exactly doing what Turb wanted to see, which was this (legs folded, sitting on the knees...despite the fact that such a requirement would've been ludicrous to spec out): But you can't have everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czero 101 Posted March 11, 2012 #13749 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I'm gonna take a wild guess, Cz! I's say the knee joint articulation is being illustrated clearly in an Apollo EVA suit. Ah, but you see, you actually know what you're looking at and talking about, unlike our integrity-challenged counterpart... Its amusing, and also extremely telling, that when given the proof he's asked for (the pictures and videos posted), Turbs apparently chooses to completely ignore it / them and continue to ignorantly prattle on. Now of course, he's not exactly doing what Turb wanted to see, which was this (legs folded, sitting on the knees...despite the fact that such a requirement would've been ludicrous to spec out): True enough... and actually, if you watch the Part 4 video just after the screenshot I posted, the person testing the suit does actually go right down to a kness-fully-on-the-ground kneeling position. As you've surmised, though, he doesn't go into a full sitting down position. Cz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilly Posted March 11, 2012 #13750 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Ok, I'm confused here. I have to ask: Why would anyone need to assume seiza position on the moon anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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