Jamie Lynn Speers

[Neognosis]

I'm just saying you can't exclude the biological influences and still see the whole picture.

I agree.

The reason girls THINK they are experiencing the urge is because society sexualizes these girls from a very young age to view themselves in a sexual way.

I can agree with that. When you take the venom and unreasonable and petty bashing out of your posts, you start to make more sense.

So we agree that society, on some level, sexualizes teens. (although boys do not need society to see girls sexually.)

So socitey sends mixed messages. On the level of fashion and pop culture, we like to dress up teenage girls sexually and real life teenagers follow this trend.

But then when our own kids dress up like Brittney spears did, we don't like it.

We also ostracize anyone who gets pregnant as a teenager, and some groups advocate abstinence and some groups remain pretty sex-negative.

Personally, I don't think there's a line to be walked where we acknowledge that teenagers are experiencing sexual feelings, boys and girls, and we need to reassure them that this is normal, while also teaching them how to behave and stay in controll of these feelings, yet also how to be safer if and when they decide to have sex.

[ravergirl]

Wow at 7yrs old sex was not even in my mind I was to busy beating boys up roller skating and riding my bike.

well me neither mostly. I guess once you know, you know. The point I am trying to make is girls are not being tricked out. that mentality comes from watching too much lifetime network tv.and then following it up with a healthy dose of spike tv. kids are worried about a whole lot of stuff, with a whole lot of stress, with these things going on in their heads and bodies that you are trying to figure out, or shut out, or embrace. you are worried about your future and past and parents and friends. you are trying to have a social life and get your education, or shun your education, and eventually working,and driving. they are mini adults with real problems trying to make sense of it all. and yeah in my 22 year old has leapt out into the world OPINION. is that kids need less protection and more education so that when they get out into the world they know and won't get hustled and done dirty. but no one wants to do that.

[truethat]

Sorry raver girl you act as though most of us were not kids ourselves. Its not a normal trend for a seven year old child to be m********ing for sexual release. At all on any level. Seems as though there is also a trend that suggests that there's a "hidden" reality when it comes to kiddies and sex. I assure you that most seven year old girls are not m********ing.

[Neognosis]

Its not a normal trend for a seven year old child to be m********ing for sexual release

Where did that come from? Did I miss something?

Although nearly all children m********e, just not to orgasm until they are older than 7. So what true says is right in light of "for sexual release."

Edited December 28, 2007 by Neognosis

[ASOP]

Protection and education go hand in hand. I give both to my children im their mom thats my job. Yes I cant be with them 24hrs a day so thats were eduction comes in and you hope that you have done a good job with teaching them now its up to them to make the right/smart choice.

[Shalott]

Wow at 7yrs old sex was not even in my mind I was to busy beating boys up roller skating and riding my bike.

It wasn't on my mind either. Sex actually wasn't on my mind for many years to come, however my exploration of my body came long before I entertained the notion of having sex. I simply had an itch and I had to find a way to scratch it. Upon reaching high school it was my friends who told me that that itch is there for a guy to take care of. I can see the biological component (the "horniness" felt before some girls even understand such a thing) and the social component (the fact that getting a guy to take care of the itch is apparently much more acceptable amongst teenagers than a girl taking care of it herself). In the end though it's how we choose to act upon our urges. If JL Spears felt pressured by her older boyfriend, well it was ultimately her decision and as such she has to deal with the consequences, which includes the backlash from the public (it's unavoidable if you're a celebrity). I'm pro-choice, so whatever decision she made wouldn't have bothered me, but I am glad she's keeping the baby rather than aborting.

[Neognosis]

I'm pro-choice, so whatever decision she made wouldn't have bothered me, but I am glad she's keeping the baby rather than aborting.

I agree. My point to this whole thread, before we got all off on tangents, was that IF you want people to have fewer abortions, you might want to think about how you treat people who get themselves into this position.

[MissMelsWell]

So socitey sends mixed messages. On the level of fashion and pop culture, we like to dress up teenage girls sexually and real life teenagers follow this trend.

Since I'm the only one on this thread that's apparetly raised a girl to adulthood let me clue you in on something here. You might be astounded.

It's not just the media.

Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to go into a store and purchase something for your 4yo that isn't sexualized? You almost don't have a choice. It's VERY subtle. Go into WalMart some day and look at little girls clothes. They look like hoochie mamma hooker clothes. Do you know how hard it is to find a party dress for a little girl that doesn't look like a shrunken cocktail dress? The older they get, the harder it gets--thank you Abercrombie and Fitch. It's not just the media. It's everything.

Toys are AWFUL. Do you have any idea how truly hard it is to find toys for children that aren't sexualized? And when you can they're incredibly expensive.

But then when our own kids dress up like Brittney spears did, we don't like it.

We also ostracize anyone who gets pregnant as a teenager, and some groups advocate abstinence and some groups remain pretty sex-negative.

The sad part is that most parents don't even realize they're sexualizing their children like Brittney Spears. It's all they see in the stores, they think it's normal and the "fashion" and dress their two year olds like hookers. It's subtle though, but it's there.

I didn't have to teach absinence, I had to teach critical thinking. I had to teach her how to balance and think through consequences. When you do that, they naturally make the right choice in most cases.

Personally, I don't think there's a line to be walked where we acknowledge that teenagers are experiencing sexual feelings, boys and girls, and we need to reassure them that this is normal, while also teaching them how to behave and stay in controll of these feelings, yet also how to be safer if and when they decide to have sex.

I never had to teach my child to "stay in control" I rather instill in her values and taught her to think. That was about all it took, I didn't even have to tell her about sexual feelings being normal... her good common sense that I instilled in her took care of the issue.

Edited December 28, 2007 by MissMelsWell

[Neognosis]

I never had to teach my child to "stay in control" I rather instill in her values and taught her to think.

tomato, to-MAH-to

[ravergirl]

Sorry raver girl you act as though most of us were not kids ourselves. Its not a normal trend for a seven year old child to be m********ing for sexual release. At all on any level. Seems as though there is also a trend that suggests that there's a "hidden" reality when it comes to kiddies and sex. I assure you that most seven year old girls are not m********ing.

i didn't say all children did. i said I did and all my friends across 3 states were talking about it by 10. so within 3 years there was an epiphany in the young girls' mind.

Where did that come from? Did I miss something?

Although nearly all children m********e, just not to orgasm until they are older than 7. So what true says is right in light of "for sexual release."

you have a habit of putting words in peoples mouth and since i can go quote myself and show you that I did not say one thing about "just to orgasm." and FYI babies little bitty babies do it too, not because it is sexual but because it feels good

also I didn't say you weren't ever a child. im not stupid I know you were a child. but you are either acting like a child right now and refusing to accept that you might be wrong about what drives kids to have sex. Or you forgot what it was actually like. or maybe you remember all to vividly what it was like for you. but did either of you ever feel underestimated by your parents or that they assumed things or that no one really listened to what you were saying because you were young and all you could depend on were your peers and strangers....don't even say no because there is a point you did unless you still live with your parents.and now you are doing it some more based on what? some facts that came from some dude in a lab coat with a clip board that doesn't really remember why he has that limp other than he jumped off of the roof of his friends shed and that it was dumb.

Protection and education go hand in hand. I give both to my children im their mom thats my job. Yes I cant be with them 24hrs a day so thats were eduction comes in and you hope that you have done a good job with teaching them now its up to them to make the right/smart choice.

exactly.

[ASOP]

Oh dont even go there kids clothes are horrible! You are so right the way they make some of those little girls clothes is just really ........sad. I will not and do not buy them my little girl is 4 and she is going to be dressed like a 4yr old little girl should be dressed. She love sweat clothes anyway she says they are "cozy"

[Neognosis]

you have a habit of putting words in peoples mouth and since i can go quote myself and show you that I did not say one thing about "just to orgasm."

I was talking to Truethat, not you.

I also still don't see where this converstion about m********ion started or how it came up. What did I miss?

also I didn't say you weren't ever a child. im not stupid I know you were a child. but you are either acting like a child right now and refusing to accept that you might be wrong about what drives kids to have sex. Or you forgot what it was actually like. or maybe you remember all to vividly what it was like for you. but did either of you ever feel underestimated by your parents or that they assumed things or that no one really listened to what you were saying because you were young and all you could depend on were your peers and strangers....don't even say no because there is a point you did unless you still live with your parents.and now you are doing it some more based on what? some facts that came from some dude in a lab coat with a clip board that doesn't really remember why he has that limp other than he jumped off of the roof of his friends shed and that it was dumb.

First off, who are you talking to? Second, what the heck are you trying to say? Who said anything about never being a child?

I think we have some misunderstandings here.

[ravergirl]

All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players;

They have their exits and their entrances,

And one man in his time plays many parts,

His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,

Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.

Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel

And shining morning face, creeping like a snail

Unwillingly to school. [b]And then the lover[/b], Sighing like a furnace, with a woeful ballad

Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,

Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,

Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,

Seeking the bubble reputation

Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,

In fair round belly with good capon lined,

With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,

Full of wise saws and modern instances;

And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts

Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,

With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;

His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide

For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,

Turning again toward childish treble, pipes

And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,

That ends this strange eventful history,

Is second childishness and mere oblivion,

Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

Shakespeare-

you can't stop the progression or control when it happens.

[Stixxman]

ravergirl got skilllll boiy

[capeo]

Sorry raver girl you act as though most of us were not kids ourselves. Its not a normal trend for a seven year old child to be m********ing for sexual release. At all on any level. Seems as though there is also a trend that suggests that there's a "hidden" reality when it comes to kiddies and sex. I assure you that most seven year old girls are not m********ing.

Actually polls and studies report that girls start m********ing earlier than men in most cases:

"A 2004 survey by Toronto magazine NOW was answered by an unspecified number of thousands.[20] The results show that an overwhelming majority of the males – 81% – began m********ing between the ages of 10 and 15. Among females, the same figure was a more modest majority of 55%. (Note that surveys on sexual practices are prone to self-selection bias.) It is not uncommon however to begin much earlier, and this is more frequent among females: 18% had begun by the time they turned 10, and 6% already by the time they turned 6. Being the main outlet of child sexuality, m********ion has been observed in very young children."

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/m********ion#_note-4

Other cited reports (only abstracts unless you want to pay) are here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?D...Search=17333329

More studies:

http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson...4_children.html

[MissMelsWell]

tomato, to-MAH-to

Actually, it's not Tomato / To-mah-to ... it's quite different.

Remember, I did have a kid that stood up to a friend who was acting out inappropriately for her age. My kid told her to call when she done being a moron. Since that's the case, she wouldn't have been around to support that young lady had she gone out and become pregnant at fifteen. That young woman faced the osterization BEFORE something bad happened. It made her think and she did change her behavior.

Do you see the subtle difference?

[ravergirl]

I was talking to Truethat, not you.

I also still don't see where this converstion about m********ion started or how it came up. What did I miss?

First off, who are you talking to? Second, what the heck are you trying to say? Who said anything about never being a child?

I think we have some misunderstandings here.

truethat said i act is if ya'll were never kids.

I was asked before if i had the urge to have sex before i was ready...i said of course there were. it starts very young in all actuality.

[ravergirl]

Actually, it's not Tomato / To-mah-to ... it's quite different.

Remember, I did have a kid that stood up to a friend who was acting out inappropriately for her age. My kid told her to call when she done being a moron. Since that's the case, she wouldn't have been around to support that young lady had she gone out and become pregnant at fifteen. That young woman faced the osterization BEFORE something bad happened. It made her think and she did change her behavior.

Do you see the subtle difference?

your daughter is really strong. that is awesome.

[MissMelsWell]

your daughter is really strong. that is awesome.

I don't know that I'd call it "strong" per se... it stems from a philosophy of personal responsibility, a distain for allowing yourself to be a victim, and not allowing yourself to be dragged into other people's drama. She won't even allow me to drag her into my drama (thank God), and there has been plenty of it in our lifetime.

It's a philosophy for living, not a set of rules. When they're applied correctly, they tend to work. She's actually better at it than I am.

[ravergirl]

I don't know that I'd call it "strong" per se... it stems from a philosophy of personal responsibility, a distain for allowing yourself to be a victim, and not allowing yourself to be dragged into other people's drama. She won't even allow me to drag her into my drama (thank God), and there has been plenty of it in our lifetime.

It's a philosophy for living, not a set of rules. When they're applied correctly, they tend to work. She's actually better at it than I am.

yeah but it is easy to slip and justify what someone you care about does, because you care about them.

[capeo]

Since I'm the only one on this thread that's apparetly raised a girl to adulthood let me clue you in on something here. You might be astounded.

It's not just the media.

Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to go into a store and purchase something for your 4yo that isn't sexualized? You almost don't have a choice. It's VERY subtle. Go into WalMart some day and look at little girls clothes. They look like hoochie mamma hooker clothes. Do you know how hard it is to find a party dress for a little girl that doesn't look like a shrunken cocktail dress? The older they get, the harder it gets--thank you Abercrombie and Fitch. It's not just the media. It's everything.

Toys are AWFUL. Do you have any idea how truly hard it is to find toys for children that aren't sexualized? And when you can they're incredibly expensive.

The sad part is that most parents don't even realize they're sexualizing their children like Brittney Spears. It's all they see in the stores, they think it's normal and the "fashion" and dress their two year olds like hookers. It's subtle though, but it's there.

I wouldn't even say it's that subtle. They market thongs and bikinis to toddlers. It's gross. Dolls aimed at very young girls have thongs painted on. The thing is though, people are buying them and that's the scary part. As a whole we control media and marketing by what we buy and watch and such. Products are becoming more sexualized because our society is not vice versa. But if Holland is taken as an example (it being arguably the most sexually open country on the planet) it's us as a society that's doing something wrong about it. I think it comes from our societies internal conservative/traditional vs liberated dichotomy. Because of it we almost have a taboo out in the open which makes little sense in the grand scheme of things and leaves a lot of teens marooned without the tools they need to make good decisions. Holland has the lowest teen pregnancy rate in Europe and is nine times lower than the US. Take from somebody whose been there a couple times: sex is everywhere. Porn and erotica are out in the open, nobody has any hang-ups, sex-ed is taught in all schools starting at 13 and is offered in most schools starting in their equivelant to first grade. I think removing the taboo about sex goes a long way in increasing a child's education about it. Here's a bit about how the dutch deal with it:

http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend2.htm

[Stixxman]

If I wasn't married I just might propose to you right now missmelswell, thats exactly how everyone should operate

But there you have it most european countries ideals about sex are more open but also more progressive. If you look at from logic, logic tells us that EVERYONE will want or have sexual experiences at one point in their lives so why hold back? What are they saving it for?

Edited December 28, 2007 by Stixxman

[Neognosis]

Porn and erotica are out in the open, nobody has any hang-ups, sex-ed is taught in all schools starting at 13 and is offered in most schools starting in their equivelant to first grade. I think removing the taboo about sex goes a long way in increasing a child's education about it.

I agree completely.

[ravergirl]

I agree completely.

sex ed starts before 13 because it is the only way some girls are informed about the hygene required. it is also more like a mini anatomy class than anything else.

[Neognosis]

sex ed starts before 13 because it is the only way some girls are informed about the hygene required.

Are you speaking about in the Netherlands?

The article seemed to cite the Netherlands open attitude as the cause for it's low rates of teen pregnancy, in contrast with the mixed messages our society gives out.