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Neognosis

Jamie Lynn Speers

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capeo
Some kids are ready to be cut loose at 15 or 16... mine was and I did cut her loose at that point, but admittedly that's rare. Very rare.

Kids who get pregnant (boys included) have other issues that they need to deal with. In my world "ooopsie" doesn't cut it. It didn't cut it for me... thank God my parents finaly wised up and let me have it for what I'd done; then challenged me to make it right. In doing so, I eventually won back their trust and approval, and because I never back down from a challenge, I did ok. You can bet Ms. Spears parents aren't challenging her to make anything right... they're picking out crib sets and booties.

You're not really talking about sex being natural... you're talking about the other things that lead to sex at an inappropriate age... poor self control, peer pressure, impulsiveness, immaturity, a need to "fit in", fear, and self-indulgence. It's not about natural sexual hormonal craziness, that's just crap.

It's all of the above and more but you can't discount the biological aspects of it any more than the social. The only reason sex happens in the first place is purely biological. Remove the effects of hormones and our species would die out in a generation.

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MissMelsWell

My response wasn't necessarily directed at Ms. Spears... I'm not sure many of these comments really were.

Most people are horrified at the thought of a 16yo being pregnant... and if they aren't... they should be. There's something wrong when this kind of thing happens, and it should be looked at and discussed. This story is just a catalyst to addressing a much larger issue.

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chaosdarksoulz
What I find continuously bizarre is our obsession with celebrities.

Lots of kids start having sex between 15 and 20. Some will fall pregnant, some won't just like some will have abortions and others will keep the child. She will be OK. We are so ridiculously judgemental of this young lady. In this day and age it is not considered an ideal situation but nobody's life is perfect - think of all the really bad stuff that goes on in peoples lives. I just hope she will get love and support and the bubba too.

:wacko: *I wish I had an emoticon of it continuosly banging its head against the door* :blink:

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truethat
It's all of the above and more but you can't discount the biological aspects of it any more than the social. The only reason sex happens in the first place is purely biological. Remove the effects of hormones and our species would die out in a generation.

Then why do women want to have sex when they are on birth control pills? Why not if this is the case, don't they simply invent a pill to take the sex drive away? If its purely biological.

Procreation is purely biological. And procreation would be HEAT not running around trying to have sex for fun.

Like I said, it seems like you want to toss in the science when you like it and yet not follow it all the way through.

The majority of sex is not done for procreation reasons.

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Belle.
Most people are horrified at the thought of a 16yo being pregnant... and if they aren't... they should be. .

I am not horrified by 16 yr olds having sex. The age of consent is around 16 - 18. Therefore it would be silly of me to be horrified at them being pregnant as even using protection you can get pregnant.

I agree that it is not an ideal situation.

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chaosdarksoulz
I am not horrified by 16 yr olds having sex. The age of consent is around 16 - 18. Therefore it would be silly of me to be horrified at them being pregnant as even using protection you can get pregnant.

I agree that it is not an ideal situation.

*still looking for the emoticon of it banging its head against the door*

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Belle.
*still looking for the emoticon of it banging its head against the door*

Go and dunk your head in a bucket of ice cold water - you are working yourself into a 'state' :lol:

Edited by Belqis

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MissMelsWell
It's all of the above and more but you can't discount the biological aspects of it any more than the social. The only reason sex happens in the first place is purely biological. Remove the effects of hormones and our species would die out in a generation.

Oh yes I can.

I can say without a doubt, that any "biology" for most women doesn't happen until their late 20's or early thirties.

If women were honest, they'd tell you that any sex they had when they were 15, 16, 17 even 18 or older wasn't because they felt a barely controlable biological urge... it was because they didn't want their boyfriend to leave, or they didn't want to be the only one in the group was was still a virgin, or they felt trapped into it, or they thought it would somehow make them feel more grown up, or they got really hammered and didn't know what was going on. For a woman that young, her body might be biologically functioning, but those "recreational urges" don't come until MUCH later in life.

Edited by MissMelsWell

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chaosdarksoulz
Go and dunk your head in a bucket of ice cold water - you are working yourself into a 'state' :lol:

Ha ha ha ha, so funny.... man your killing me... aha ha ha..that was so funny man.. you should do stand up, he he he...

No not really... :sleepy:

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capeo
Then why do women want to have sex when they are on birth control pills? Why not if this is the case, don't they simply invent a pill to take the sex drive away? If its purely biological.

Geez. I said sex drive is purely biological but there is more than sex drive that accounts for all sexual activity. How many times must I say this? There are many factors both social and biological. As for the pill? It's very well know that the pill does decrease female libido. It also decreases sexual enjoyment in women. It increases molecules that bind to androgens which are responsible for sex drive and sexual enjoyment. They could also very easily invent a pill or treatment for both sexes that completely inhibits the sex drive but who wants that?

Procreation is purely biological. And procreation would be HEAT not running around trying to have sex for fun.

Like I said, it seems like you want to toss in the science when you like it and yet not follow it all the way through.

The majority of sex is not done for procreation reasons.

I never said sex was only had for procreative reasons. Not anywhere. I wouldn't say that because it's not true in our species or many others for that matter. And women do have a heat by the way. Recent studies have shown men will find even just pictures of womens' faces who are ovulating (obviously not known consciously to them) more attractive than when they're not over 60% of the time. Similiar recent studies have shown that when the man can smell the womans scent this rises to 100% of the time in studies of fifty men each. I have repeatedly said, though, that there are many factors. I have never said we are slaves to our desires anywhere even though you keep saying I am. I am only saying that to not take into account the biological side of it is naive and not productive to teaching kids to be responsible. They will have the urge to have sex after puberty. That's a fact. But an urge is not a compulsion and I never claimed it was.

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chaosdarksoulz
:wacko:

Edit: Oh yes you are the guy claiming to be possessed. All makes sense now.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=114811

This is the second person who has bought an irrelevant topic into this discussion and more to the point my topic... Dude if you can't find something to reply to me, cool... don't bring my topic into this trying to make look like this or that... :angry:

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Belle.
This is the second person who has bought an irrelevant topic into this discussion and more to the point my topic... Dude if you can't find something to reply to me, cool... don't bring my topic into this trying to make look like this or that... :angry:

You did not reply to anything I said with respect or clarity. I made comments, you could have responded in a civil manner. You did not.

I didn't read the previous 24 pages. I shall apologise if my original comments were either irrelevant or inflamatory due to that. That is all.

Edited by Belqis

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capeo
Oh yes I can.

I can say without a doubt, that any "biology" for most women doesn't happen until their late 20's or early thirties.

If women were honest, they'd tell you that any sex they had when they were 15, 16, 17 even 18 or older wasn't because they felt a barely controlable biological urge... it was because they didn't want their boyfriend to leave, or they didn't want to be the only one in the group was was still a virgin, or they felt trapped into it, or they thought it would somehow make them feel more grown up, or they got really hammered and didn't know what was going on. For a woman that young, her body might be biologically functioning, but those "recreational urges" don't come until MUCH later in life.

Okay, can somebody please show me a post where I said anything about a barely controllable anything? I haven't.

What you're saying is quite common and is the social aspect I'm talking about. In adolescents it's almost always the libido of the male that drives sexual encounters and the social factors you bring up are more influential to the female in the situation (though similiar sexual peer pressure exists for boys). As a woman ages her libido gears up to make up for her dimming reproductivity. Obviously today women can have children much later into life but that wasn't the case for 99.9% of our existance as a species.

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chaosdarksoulz
You did not reply to anything I said with respect or clarity. I made comments, you could have responded in a civil manner. You did not.

I didn't read the previous 24 pages. I shall apologise if my comments were either irrelevant or inflamatory due to that. That is all.

I seriously need that emoticon... if you took that as offensive then you really need to take a chill pill and swallow it good. This is a discussion board so expect it. I just think you bringing my topic into this and posting a link too so that people can see me as a nutcase, was just pathetic. I was bieng sarcastic in my comments dude, we all put in our 2 cents, trust me, thats not me bieng disrespectful or un-civil, see it how you like does'nt really bother me. Lets just stick to the subject at hand eh... :sm

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MissMelsWell
Okay, can somebody please show me a post where I said anything about a barely controllable anything? I haven't.

What you're saying is quite common and is the social aspect I'm talking about. In adolescents it's almost always the libido of the male that drives sexual encounters and the social factors you bring up are more influential to the female in the situation (though similiar sexual peer pressure exists for boys). As a woman ages her libido gears up to make up for her dimming reproductivity. Obviously today women can have children much later into life but that wasn't the case for 99.9% of our existance as a species.

Actually, I'd disagree with that. I never felt "pressured" by a guy at that age... but I did feel pressure from my girlfriends. Guys were easy to say no to... all the OTHER social crap was much much harder to take. Libido for a gal has very little to do with why she ends up having sex way before she's old enough.

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capeo
Actually, I'd disagree with that. I never felt "pressured" by a guy at that age... but I did feel pressure from my girlfriends. Guys were easy to say no to... all the OTHER social crap was much much harder to take. Libido for a gal has very little to do with why she ends up having sex way before she's old enough.

It's not necesarily being pressured by boys that I'm referring to but the sexual environment that the adolescent male libido creates. The pressure young girls put on each other can't be seperated entirely from the fact that there will always be a willing boy available. If both adolescent sexes had very little to no sexual drive than the social environment wouldn't be so prevalent. It's no stereotype that teenage boys think about sex extremely often whether their having it or not. Also, remember the whole idea of what is old enough is very culturally subjective.

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Belle.

edited cause its like shooting fish in a barrel :lol:

Edited by Belqis

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JoeyBombs

I hope she gives birth a little goblin who proceeds to eat her for his first meal

Harsh?

Personally, I don't think so

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truethat
It's not necesarily being pressured by boys that I'm referring to but the sexual environment that the adolescent male libido creates. The pressure young girls put on each other can't be seperated entirely from the fact that there will always be a willing boy available. If both adolescent sexes had very little to no sexual drive than the social environment wouldn't be so prevalent. It's no stereotype that teenage boys think about sex extremely often whether their having it or not. Also, remember the whole idea of what is old enough is very culturally subjective.

This is why its pointless to discuss things with you. You constantly change your answers slowly stepping away from why you originally posted your answer and what you were addressing.

Bottom line there isn't a "drive to have sex" simply because a persons body is physically developed to have sex so its IRRELEVANT to keep bringing this up. Biology has nothing to do with why most teenagers have sex. Frankly its got nothing to do with why most PEOPLE have sex. We've evolved past "procreation" and "biology" being the drives world wide that cause people to have sex.

Women do have heat, I'm not saying they don't. I stated simply that if it was biological then women would ONLY want to have sex when they are in heat. As such when women are on birth control pills according to the "biology" argument women wouldn't ever want to have sex.

Yet women usually go on birth control pills so they can have sex. Do they not?

You are missing the forrest for the trees. Teen girls do not DO NOT biologically or otherwise have a natural desire to have sex the same way a teen boy does. Yet girls are taught "Its natural to want to have sex, its biolog, its hormones" when none of it can be further from the truth.

*spam filter* is a self destructive behavior in many many ways and yet young girls are encouraged to do it by society, they are sexualized from a young age and objectified.

And men like you and others really contribute to that by pushing the idea that its out of their control.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that young women have the same biological sexual desire as a teen boy.

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eqgumby

I hate to say it, but I do believe that teen age girls do indeed desire sexual contact at times. Not all of course, I wouldn't make a blanket statement. But they do experience physical arousal and derive pleasure from sexual contact. It's just that they don't usually have the same biological drive to have it in the same manner as young men do. There is a difference, that's for sure.

We seem to be mired now in this discussion or disagreement related to recreational versus utilitarian sexual behavior. It's becoming a semantics game that does not address the topic.

A few things that I think are really unarguable:

Young girls have sexual relationships for different reason than young men in western society specifically. It's as much social as biological, if not more social.

The over-emphasis on sexuality at a very young age is a detriment to the well-being of teenagers and pre-teens in our society too. Just take a look at these 8 year old girls in beauty pageants, or as True said, the Bratz dolls. It's gross and disturbing.

As this relates to Jamie Spears, it's a fact that parents of these "tweens" that are such big fans of Zoey 101 and Ms Spears are rightfully and justifiably disturbed by her pregnancy, and many of them hope that it will not have a negative impact on their children. This is because they know the power that society, the media, and role models have on their kids and their friends. That much is just a fact. Arguing that point is like spitting in the wind.

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JoeyBombs

Truethat - Hold up!

Teen girls and teen guys TOTALLY have the same level of desires

Teen boys like to discuss it and brag about it as a step towards manhood and a sign of their immaturity yet that doesn't mean it's not as prevalent in teen girls

Teen girls are attempting to be more lady-like and stray from publically discussing their needs and desires

It's like saying guys m********e and girls don't -NOT TRUE

It takes two to tango my friend

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eqgumby
Truethat - Hold up!

Teen girls and teen guys TOTALLY have the same level of desires

Teen boys like to discuss it and brag about it as a step towards manhood and a sign of their immaturity yet that doesn't mean it's not as prevalent in teen girls

Teen girls are attempting to be more lady-like and stray from publically discussing their needs and desires

It's like saying guys m********e and girls don't -NOT TRUE

It takes two to tango my friend

You're totally missing the point I think. Young girls have sex for very different reasons than do young men. It's the same for all ages, but the differences are better defined at a younger age, as well as the biological fact that women and men reach sexual "peaks" at different ages. There is a lot more to it than it taking "two to tango". Women do NOT have the same sexual outlook from a social perspective, as well as a physical perspective in MOST cases. There are always exceptions, but we are trying to be as general as possible.

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Neognosis
I am only saying that to not take into account the biological side of it is naive and not productive to teaching kids to be responsible. They will have the urge to have sex after puberty. That's a fact. But an urge is not a compulsion and I never claimed it was.

I agree completely.

This is why its pointless to discuss things with you. You constantly change your answers slowly stepping away from why you originally posted your answer and what you were addressing.

Capeo hasn't stepped away from anything. Every time he clarifies or restates what he says, it contrasts whith what you THINK he wrote, not what he actually wrote. Perhaps this is why you constantly think people change their stance, when all they have done is restated something in a way that you finally understood. Please read more carefully what we SAY and try not to inject what you think we mean.

Bottom line there isn't a "drive to have sex" simply because a persons body is physically developed to have sex so its IRRELEVANT to keep bringing this up. Biology has nothing to do with why most teenagers have sex.

That's crazy and patently false. Ther isn't a drive to have sex when a person reaches sexual maturity? Are you crazy? I can't speak for teenage girls, but I can speak for myself, my brothers, my cousins, the entire football team at my high school, and every male I've ever been friends with, even the homosexuals. There IS a drive to have sex the second our testicles start making sperm. Sorry Truethat, that's how it is for teenage boys.

Frankly its got nothing to do with why most PEOPLE have sex

Shall we take a poll to find out how many people have sex at least partly because they have a drive to have sex?

We've evolved past "procreation" and "biology" being the drives world wide that cause people to have sex.

No we haven't. Not even close.

Yet girls are taught "Its natural to want to have sex, its biolog, its hormones" when none of it can be further from the truth

Can any women refute this? Are there any women out there who felt a physical urge to have sex before they were, say, 21? My wife did, so did her sister. That's all I can go on, unless I start asking my female friends, which I'm prepared to do. How about you, ravergirl? Did you ever want to have sex before you were 21?

And men like you and others really contribute to that by pushing the idea that its out of their control.

Once again, nobody said it was out of anyone's controll. How many more times are you going to keep saying that? Do you think that if you keep saying that, it will become true and magically make thos words show up in our posts? Please stop putting words into our posts that are not there.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that young women have the same biological sexual desire as a teen boy.

He didn't claim there was. In fact, if you READ capeo's posts, you'll see that he cites numerous biological reasons why the desire in women is different from the desire in men. Put simply, women are more selective because it is more of a drain on resources to bear a child for a woman than it is for a man. We can "afford" to cause a pregnancy once an hour for our whole lives and it doesn't "biologically" cost us anything more than we are paying already. Not true for women, thus they are more selective and have a different drive.

Young girls have sexual relationships for different reason than young men in western society specifically. It's as much social as biological, if not more social.

I can get with that.

The over-emphasis on sexuality at a very young age is a detriment to the well-being of teenagers and pre-teens in our society too. Just take a look at these 8 year old girls in beauty pageants, or as True said, the Bratz dolls. It's gross and disturbing.

I can get behind that too, although I will say that biologically speaking, 16 not a very young age. It's prime time, reproductively speaking. That just doesn't mesh with our culture.

As this relates to Jamie Spears, it's a fact that parents of these "tweens" that are such big fans of Zoey 101 and Ms Spears are rightfully and justifiably disturbed by her pregnancy, and many of them hope that it will not have a negative impact on their children. This is because they know the power that society, the media, and role models have on their kids and their friends. That much is just a fact. Arguing that point is like spitting in the wind.

I agree with that too.

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truethat

The point that I'm making is one that I've noticed for a while so I'm sorry to lob it into the middle of this discussion but I do think its at the heart of the matter.

This is what I'm NOT SAYING

I'm not saying that some teen age girls don't want to have sex purely from the perspective of libido.

I'm not saying its unnatural or wrong to want to have sex if this is the case.

I'm not saying that every teen ager that has sex is wrong or doing damage.

Frankly I would wager that JL Spears (as I stated before) is a lot more aware and worldly than the average teen out in podunk. As such its not the same thing to me if SHE has sex. Its her business. I'm not saying she shouldn't have sex except for the fact that its illegal for someone to have sex with her who is an adult, and with this awareness she made a mess.

What I am saying is that this isn't always true for young women. The way *spam filter* is dealt with in schools is to tell kids they are going to "naturally want to have sex and there is nothing wrong with that"

Except as MMW pointed out most teen girls I know don't Naturally want to have sex, they do it because of social pressure.

Its not very empowering to young women the way sex is presented to them. I would wager as Capeo pointed out that young men do want to have sex. This I believe has been proven that not only do boys reach puberty but that their libido hits their peak at the same time. So to me its natural for a boy to feel this way.

But girls are different than boys and I think its unfair that most girls are basically turned into sexual release for boys and are groomed for this from a very young age by being sexualized.

There's this dissonance between the way BRATZ and BARBIE are aimed at young girls of 5-6 years old and girls are encouraged to be sexy to be cool and the backlash that is aimed at JL Spears right now.

Its societal and we have to be honest and admit that biologically a 14-15 year old girl is NOT really having sex from a biological urge but rather social pressure.

This is why JL Spears is so upsetting to most parents of these teens and pre teens because its yet another girl that they had allowed to be a role model.

Its unfortunate in MHO that parents didn't catch on that as the sis of Britney the girl wasn't coming from a great track record but if say Hannah Montana got pregnant (Miley Cyrus) I would be upset. My seven year old son watches that show.

I think this is what a lot of people are missing. I don't know of a single 16 year old that would be caught dead watching those shows. Little kids watch these shows not teen agers.

Edited by truethat

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