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Neognosis

Jamie Lynn Speers

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truethat
That's crazy and patently false. Ther isn't a drive to have sex when a person reaches sexual maturity? Are you crazy? I can't speak for teenage girls, but I can speak for myself, my brothers, my cousins, the entire football team at my high school, and every male I've ever been friends with, even the homosexuals. There IS a drive to have sex the second our testicles start making sperm. Sorry Truethat, that's how it is for teenage boys.

Shall we take a poll to find out how many people have sex at least partly because they have a drive to have sex?

No we haven't. Not even close.

As I have stated innumerable times. This is why you don't understand the point. Yes we have evolved past sex being only a biological urge.

You need to wake up and take a good long look around the world and actually look at the data. Just because you are stuck in puberty doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

Interestingly you proved my point. MALES reach their sexual peak in their TEENS and early twenties. GIRLS DO NOT.

OF course I know you will ignore what women have to say about this like you normally do because its part of your personal issue to insist that you are right on this.

But studies have shown that young girls are SEXUALIZED much more than boys are from a young age.

I mean you don't even have to think that hard about this. Its why I have such an issue with sex ed being done the way it is.

Edited by truethat

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ravergirl
Actually, I'd disagree with that. I never felt "pressured" by a guy at that age... but I did feel pressure from my girlfriends. Guys were easy to say no to... all the OTHER social crap was much much harder to take. Libido for a gal has very little to do with why she ends up having sex way before she's old enough.

now that I think about this you are so right on the pressure coming from the other girls. thats why i didn't hang out with girls, i hung out with guys exclusivley and was never pressured for sex, joked with of course but guys really do way way more than sit around and talk about girls and neckin, i mean there are video games to be played hello. but on the flip side of this convo....isn't teen pregnancy stats on the decline instead of the rise?

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Neognosis
except for the fact that its illegal for someone to have sex with her who is an adult

Only if they are 24 in florida, let's not forget.

What I am saying is that this isn't always true for young women. The way *spam filter* is dealt with in schools is to tell kids they are going to "naturally want to have sex and there is nothing wrong with that"

I agree with that because I think MOST kids in their middle and late teens are going to naturally want to have sex and there ISN'T anything wrong with sexual desire at that age.

Except as MMW pointed out most teen girls I know don't Naturally want to have sex,

I can't speak to that, as I was never a teenage girl. It does sound contrary to what my female friends have said, though. As for social pressure, teenage boys have always and will always find ways to pressure females into having sex. Right or wrong, that's how it always will be. Our society has to walk a fine line between being *spam filter*itive and also encouraging responsibility and good decision making. I'll agree that we do tend to encourage teenage girls to be sexual before they are ready. Ironically, 16 year old brittany spears opened that door a bit wider on her way to stardome.

its unfair that most girls are basically turned into sexual release for boys and are groomed for this from a very young age by being sexualized.

You had me agreeing with you until you went off the deep end there. I don't think that girls are "turned into sexual release for boys and groomed for this from a young age."

I'll agree that things like brittany spears and kid's fashions today definitley sexualize young girls, but I think your statement is too harsh and goes too far. Nobody is forcing these girls to wear this stuff. I wager they put on the little shorts and the baby girl T-shirts and the boys start drooling at their feet and they LIKE the sense of power it gives them. I can't say for sure, as I'm a male, but it seems to me that young girls today are more aware of their sexual energy and the effect it has on boys.

I worked my communities volunteer firefighter carnival, and I can tell you I was STUNNED at what some of the 15 and 16 year old girls were wearing. STUNNED. And they were followed around by troops of boys who figure if you're advertising, you must be selling (or giving SOMETHING away). But I also saw a lot of girls who were dressed normally. They didn't have troops of boys following them around, though. Parents have to teach their kids about sexual attraction and why that kind of attention, while it may seem good at the time, isn't really good. I will tell you that my daughter is NOT going to be wearing stuff like what I saw. I'm going to teach her that her body is good and nothing to be ashamed of, but that flaunting it too sexually brings on the wrong kind of attention from boys who will see her as a sexual object and not see her for the great person she is.

Its societal and we have to be honest and admit that biologically a 14-15 year old girl is NOT really having sex from a biological urge but rather social pressure.

I don't know what a girl at 14 or 15 feels. i do suspect, though, that by 16 their hormones are having at least some effect on them. Are you denying this is the case?

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Neognosis
Yes we have evolved past sex being only a biological urge.

I agree with that. The problem is, when you argue this point, you usually leave out the "only" part.

You need to wake up and take a good long look around the world and actually look at the data. Just because you are stuck in puberty doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

Ah, what post from TT would be complete without an ignorant and obnoxious personal attack? Priceless.

I mean you don't even have to think that hard about this.

Well, in my school system, kids are taught that sexual urges are natural, they are taught why they should abstain, but they are also taught what to do to be safer if they decide NOT to abstain.

What would you have sex ed be like? I'm dying to know....

So tell us, truethat, what do you think the sex ed programs shoudl teach? Now's your big chance.

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ravergirl

girls want to have sex. there is an atmosphere of females being victim-ish and that is a misconception. There is social pressure to have sex, of course, there is pressure to do everything. girls aren't being pushed or forced into sex, what they are doing is being allowed to be naive. parents aren't teaching their kids about the consequences and rewards of making good decisions vs. bad decisions and how to logically tell the difference besides your emotions, which is what is driving them anyway. Emotions. Parenting is way more than controlling your kids, it is about preparing them.

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capeo
This is why its pointless to discuss things with you. You constantly change your answers slowly stepping away from why you originally posted your answer and what you were addressing.

Bottom line there isn't a "drive to have sex" simply because a persons body is physically developed to have sex so its IRRELEVANT to keep bringing this up. Biology has nothing to do with why most teenagers have sex. Frankly its got nothing to do with why most PEOPLE have sex. We've evolved past "procreation" and "biology" being the drives world wide that cause people to have sex.

You're not getting what I'm saying. Without the biological urge people would never have sex. If it were removed from all people there would be no more sex. We wouldn't derive pleasure from it and we wouldn't have the urge to do it. Some people today that have hormone problems have no desire to have sex and hence do not.

Women do have heat, I'm not saying they don't. I stated simply that if it was biological then women would ONLY want to have sex when they are in heat. As such when women are on birth control pills according to the "biology" argument women wouldn't ever want to have sex.

Yet women usually go on birth control pills so they can have sex. Do they not?

Why would women only want to sex while they're ovulating? I never said that was the case. It serves as a signal to the male that it's a good time to copulate not vice versa. Women always have some level of testosterone whatever the time of the month and sex serves many other purposes. As for the pill, I already explained this. The pill reduces libido as a side effect not the intended effect but it doesn't eliminate it. If we so desired we could develop pills or treatments that would remove any and all urges to have sex and sex would cease. No matter how sexualized media was the population would never be aroused.

You are missing the forrest for the trees. Teen girls do not DO NOT biologically or otherwise have a natural desire to have sex the same way a teen boy does. Yet girls are taught "Its natural to want to have sex, its biolog, its hormones" when none of it can be further from the truth.

*spam filter* is a self destructive behavior in many many ways and yet young girls are encouraged to do it by society, they are sexualized from a young age and objectified.

And men like you and others really contribute to that by pushing the idea that its out of their control.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that young women have the same biological sexual desire as a teen boy.

True, seriously, don't tell me I'm contributing to anything or pushing any ideas. Christ, we're just having a discussion here. How many times have a said we're not slaves to our hormones in my posts or that the media oversexualizes many things? You're the one not seeing the forest for the trees. Girls show a huge elasticity in their sex drive based on circumstances while boys are pretty consistent. In other words girls tend to be more choosey but are just as likely to engage in sexual activity as teenagers when their criteria are met. These are biological influences filtered through social circumstances. You can't seperate the sexes.

Another thing to note, though there is more sex in the media today then say, the fifties, but teen pregnancy rates are lower now than they ever were.

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truethat

My sex ed program would focus much more on teaching young women about their bodies. I would teach girls how to read their ovulation cycles from a very young age for example in order to be aware when is a risky time for them to engage in sex safe or otherwise.

I'd also teach them the FACT that boys are experiencing a biological urge to have sex that is much more intense than theirs is and to be aware of this.

And I'd teach them that they do NOT have the same urges as boys do and as such they shouldn't feel the need to basically be a sex release for a boy who has his urges. I'd teach them that they do the boy no favors by just giving them the easy way out and that actually the way to becoming a good lover for the boy is to grow out of his frat boy gotta have it all the time mentality.

I'm sorry you are so upset with me for indicating Neo that immature lovers quite obviously still feel bound by sexual urges as though it holds that much of a control over their life that you excuse certain behaviors as "He can't help it" But that's another debate and we most certainly will never agree on it. I'm sorry it upsets you but I stand by what I've come to realize.

That men who are good lovers are not plagued by their sexual urges. Rather compare them to a horse rider. An man who knows how to handle a bucking horse is something to admire. A man getting thrown willy nilly by a bucking horse is almost comical and sad. Its not his fault he can't handle the horse really you can't flaw him for not having the skill.

But I'd try to teach young people able being the master of their horse, not the hobo clown hanging on by a boot strap and wailing about how he can't control nature.

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truethat
Another thing to note, though there is more sex in the media today then say, the fifties, but teen pregnancy rates are lower now than they ever were.

I am getting what you are saying and I'm telling you its IRRELEVANT. We live where we live, you can't hone in on just the sexual drive and act as though that's all she wrote.

We live in the society in which we live, sexuality is PUSHED on teen girls. Studies PROVE this.

And teen pregnancy rates are lower than they were in the 50s? That probably has a lot to do with the fact that during the fifties women married much younger than women do now.

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Neognosis
And I'd teach them that they do NOT have the same urges as boys do and as such they shouldn't feel the need to basically be a sex release for a boy who has his urges

Once again, I was with you until you went off the deep end there.

What if there are girls in that class that have been thinking about sex and want to have sex because...gasp! They are horney? Should they feel like there is something wrong with them because they feel a physical and biological urge to have sex?

I agree that they should learn that boys are going through a very intense period of sexual urge and that they need to consider this when they make choices about their relationships and when to have sex. I agree that girls should learn that they do not have to give in to the pressure from boys until they are ready and want to, and that they should not have sex to make a boy stay. But sex release? The language betrays your bias.

That men who are good lovers are not plagued by their sexual urges.

I'm not plagued by mine. I fully enjoy them and exercise them every chance I get. If I had a choice to only feel libidenous once in a while or to feel how I do now, I would keep things the way they are now. I like wanting a lot of sex and having a lot of sex. My wife doesn't seem to mind riding my bronco often either, so it works out pretty well for us. Thanks for your concern, though.

I'd teach them that they do the boy no favors by just giving them the easy way out and that actually the way to becoming a good lover for the boy is to grow out of his frat boy gotta have it all the time mentality.

could you elaborate on that please? I would like to know more about this idea.

you excuse certain behaviors as "He can't help it"

Oh sweet Jesus Lord of all, again with this nonsense? Again, I never said that. YOU keep saying that and claiming that I've said it. It's really getting old and it's a little bit insulting to be misquoted in nearly every post you make. Are you doing this on purpose?

We live in the society in which we live, sexuality is PUSHED on teen girls. Studies PROVE this.

What studdies would these be?

And teen pregnancy rates are lower than they were in the 50s? That probably has a lot to do with the fact that during the fifties women married much younger than women do now.

You'll have to elaborate on this too, as I don't understand what you're trying to say with that statement. I don't think that the statistics include married teenagers, but maybe i'm mistaken...Are you trying to say that there were more pregnant teens in the 50's becasue more teeenagers were married and therefore included in the numbers?

Edited by Neognosis

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capeo
I am getting what you are saying and I'm telling you its IRRELEVANT. We live where we live, you can't hone in on just the sexual drive and act as though that's all she wrote.

We live in the society in which we live, sexuality is PUSHED on teen girls. Studies PROVE this.

And teen pregnancy rates are lower than they were in the 50s? That probably has a lot to do with the fact that during the fifties women married much younger than women do now.

I'm not honing in on anything in particular. I, in fact, have been portraying a far more complex and factual interaction of biological and social interactions that countless studies will back up than you have. If anything you're throwing the baby out with bathwater (bad metaphor, I know) by not acknowledging the complexity of things that go into sexuality.

I think you're harping on my first post where I said that if you isolated a bunch of young teens alone without supervision that they would start having sex as soon as they are sexually mature. That's absolutely true. Obviously nobody exists in that vaccuum though and cultural influences are much more complex than that.

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truethat

OK

Neo we're back to your misinformation again aren't we. Education is your friend. This is why arguing with you is pointless. You have your "World according to NEO" and that's that.

Studies SHOW that boys have a stronger sexual libido in their teens than girls do on average. Of course there are girls that desire sex and if you go back and read what I posted earlier like two pages ago I already addressed that.

Now you've just tanked off the deep end.

TEENAGERS goes up to 19 or are you not aware that 19 is a teenager? Really you are a complete waste of time sometimes.

Nevermind.

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ravergirl

Capeo, Neo.....can you tell me what it feels like to BE a teenaged girl? you are saying what people say being a teenaged girl is like...but do you know

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truethat
I'm not honing in on anything in particular. I, in fact, have been portraying a far more complex and factual interaction of biological and social interactions that countless studies will back up than you have. If anything you're throwing the baby out with bathwater (bad metaphor, I know) by not acknowledging the complexity of things that go into sexuality.

I think you're harping on my first post where I said that if you isolated a bunch of young teens alone without supervision that they would start having sex as soon as they are sexually mature. That's absolutely true. Obviously nobody exists in that vaccuum though and cultural influences are much more complex than that.

So then what is the point of posting it?

This is what I mean? Who CARES if you isolate a group of kids. We're not talking about isolated kids we're talking about mainstream American kids right in the middle of the media feeding frenzy.

I'm not throwing anything out with anything but there seems to be in sex ed this idea pushed that teenagers are experiencing an intense boom in sexual libido. But this is not true in any way shape or form.

BOYS experience this not girls. Girls sexual libido grows and sways and boys are just basically horny all the time.

Some men learn to finesse that and others do not. The problem for me is when a man who is still stuck in puberty tries to convince young women that she is going to want to have sex because its a natural urge and a biological urge completely overlooking the fact that the sexual objectification of young girls waaaaaaay over does the level of libido that a girl is actually going to experience.

You guys do this a lot in the arguments with me. You just blow me off and throw science and your science is half asses and mostly wrong and then you back pedal saying that's not what you were saying and that I have a problem reading.

No

Social influences have A LOT more to do with why young GIRLS have sex which is the topic of this thread Jamie Lynn Spears and her pregnancy. Not boys sexual urges.

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Neognosis
Studies SHOW that boys have a stronger sexual libido in their teens than girls do on average.

I agree with that. I'm not denying that. Can you admit that some girls feel horney and want to have sex?

Of course there are girls that desire sex

Thank you.

Capeo, Neo.....can you tell me what it feels like to BE a teenaged girl? you are saying what people say being a teenaged girl is like...but do you know

Of course not. i don't think either one of us made the claim that we know how teenage girls feel. However, the data seems to indicate, and my female friends tell me, that during their teen years they did feel the urge to have sex at least some of the time. I don't think there's any debate about that.

As a former teenage girl, what about you? Did you ever feel an urge to have sex, other than from societal pressure?

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truethat

For the record since Neo finally understood my point. I'm saying that the way girls are sexualized encourages them to believe that they are going to experience this natural urge to have sex. As such many girls I know seek out situations which would make this possible because normally walking through their day they don't.

NOT the way boys do. As such girls are groomed to be sexual outlets for boys and often times resort to different positions that are less pregnancy risk, in order to fulfill this.

I don't know many teen age girls, especially not 14 and 15 year old girls that truly want to have SEX. What they are doing is fulfilling a role. What they want is to be sexy, not to have sex.

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ravergirl
Of course not. i don't think either one of us made the claim that we know how teenage girls feel. However, the data seems to indicate, and my female friends tell me, that during their teen years they did feel the urge to have sex at least some of the time. I don't think there's any debate about that.

As a former teenage girl, what about you? Did you ever feel an urge to have sex, other than from societal pressure?

The data is crap. and I...this is wholly inappropriate BTW....I felt sexual urges as young as 7. which is when I started taking care of business myself. girls that I was friends with started talking about m********ion amidst each other at 10. and I moved a lot between FL, TX, and OH like ever 3 to 6 months so i am going to assume that that is national average. so yeah i wanted to have sex WAY before was ready. and WAY before I started hanging out with boys outside of school.

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capeo
So then what is the point of posting it?

This is what I mean? Who CARES if you isolate a group of kids. We're not talking about isolated kids we're talking about mainstream American kids right in the middle of the media feeding frenzy.

I'm not throwing anything out with anything but there seems to be in sex ed this idea pushed that teenagers are experiencing an intense boom in sexual libido. But this is not true in any way shape or form.

BOYS experience this not girls. Girls sexual libido grows and sways and boys are just basically horny all the time.

Some men learn to finesse that and others do not. The problem for me is when a man who is still stuck in puberty tries to convince young women that she is going to want to have sex because its a natural urge and a biological urge completely overlooking the fact that the sexual objectification of young girls waaaaaaay over does the level of libido that a girl is actually going to experience.

You guys do this a lot in the arguments with me. You just blow me off and throw science and your science is half asses and mostly wrong and then you back pedal saying that's not what you were saying and that I have a problem reading.

No

Social influences have A LOT more to do with why young GIRLS have sex which is the topic of this thread Jamie Lynn Spears and her pregnancy. Not boys sexual urges.

None of the science I posted is wrong you just keep putting words into my mouth.

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truethat

No the science you posted has nothing to do with reality though as it is experienced.

That is WHY you needed to isolate your situation to an island in order to make it work.

You can go on and on about the properties of water but if its in a freezer then its pointless is it not?

So take the scientific properties you posted and realize that its akin to these kids living in a freezer, only the freezer is this conditioning center of media.

Thanks

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Neognosis
This is what I mean? Who CARES if you isolate a group of kids. We're not talking about isolated kids we're talking about mainstream American kids right in the middle of the media feeding frenzy.

His point was, that even absent of all societal pressure, teenagers still want to have sex. Both boys and girls, apparently. So they times that it appeared that you were asserting that girls have sex mostly out of societal pressure would appear to be faulty. They would have sex even in the absence of our modern society. In fact, probably more so.

there seems to be in sex ed this idea pushed that teenagers are experiencing an intense boom in sexual libido. But this is not true in any way shape or form.

Read what you wrote slowly and then tell us you really agree with it. If you really beleive that, there's nothing anyone can say to reason with you. i don't think you really believe that, though.

BOYS experience this not girls.

Ah, what happened to "any way shape or form?"

Girls sexual libido grows and sways

But they do have one. And it does affect their attitudes and decision making sometimes.

Now that we've all agreed, can we move past this?

The problem for me is when a man who is still stuck in puberty tries to convince young women that she is going to want to have sex because its a natural urge and a biological urge completely overlooking the fact that the sexual objectification of young girls waaaaaaay over does the level of libido that a girl is actually going to experience.

Ok, I understand. Who, exactly, are these men who are doing this? Was britany spears a "man still stuck in puberty" when she put on the "hit me baby one more time" schoolgirl outfit? Was Christina Aguilllara a "man still stuck in puberty" when she shot the "dirrrty" video? Is it "men still stuck in puberty" who bought all those brittany spears albums?

I think a more appropriate question is, why do you blame everything on men? Did men break into the homes of these 16 year old girls and replace all their clothes with ****ty clothes?

You just blow me off and throw science and your science is half asses and mostly wrong and then you back pedal saying that's not what you were saying and that I have a problem reading.

No True, saying that science is "half asses" when you just don't agree with it isn't going to fly. And you FREQUENTLY misquote us over and over again, even when we've clarified and asked you to stop. It's as if you NEED us to say certain things and you read things that aren't there for some reason.

Social influences have A LOT more to do with why young GIRLS have sex

Ok, I agree that social influences have a great deal to do with why both genders have sex as teens. But so does biology.

Surely you agree that biology plays a role in why teenagers have sex, right?

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Neognosis
No the science you posted has nothing to do with reality though as it is experienced.

Ah, I see. YOU decide what the reality is, not some silly scientists!

That is WHY you needed to isolate your situation to an island in order to make it work.

His point, once again, is that even in the complete absence of societal pressure, teenagers WILL HAVE SEX. If anything, it's societal pressure that, while it does sexualize girls, it also sends another message to not have sex so young, as is evidenced by the outcry against JLS.

You can go on and on about the properties of water but if its in a freezer then its pointless is it not?

No. What's pointless is to pretend water never freezes simply because it is not in a freezer.

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truethat

Neo if you actually read what I posted you would see I've been saying BOYS have a different sexual libido than girls do.

What part of that is so difficult for you to understand? Could you answer me that?

And as I've stated girls are sexualized at a very young age which has nothing to do with biology. Ravergirl's example bears that out. According to YOUR arguments girls should suddenly want to have sex when they are teenagers.

But she has stated that girls she knew at 7 and 10 were viewing their bodies in a sexual way.

I have also stated several times that the audience that watches these types of shows are little children like my 7 year old son. Not 16 year olds.

So it seems that yet again my statements bear out which of course you are going to ignore and twist into me saying something else.

Again in little words for you for like the 10th time

Girls are sexualized from a young age in this society to veiw themselves as sex objects. You can see this is dolls aimed at little girls like Bratz and Barbie. This has NOTHING to do with biology.

If you think its a natural healthy thing for a seven year old girl to be m********ing because she's thinking about having sex then I don't know what to tell you.

Biologically MALES experience a sexual peak in addition to their sexual development in their TEENS and early twenties and NOT FEMALES.

Science doesn't bear out your argument. Social influence has a LOT more to do with how a girl sees herself as a sexual object than biology does.

I'm not denying how WATER acts when its in WATER but its not IN WATER its in the freezer.

What part of this is so hard for you to understand?

Edited by truethat

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Neognosis
Neo if you actually read what I posted you would see I've been saying BOYS have a different sexual libido than girls do.

What part of that is so difficult for you to understand? Could you answer me that?

I'm not debating that. I understand that boys have a different sexual libido than girls do. I've never contested that. You keep claiming that I'm doing that, but I'm not and never have.

And as I've stated girls are sexualized at a very young age which has nothing to do with biology.

NOTHING? The sexualization of girls has nothing to do with biology? I don't agree.

According to YOUR arguments girls should suddenly want to have sex when they are teenagers.

Are you claiming that teenage girls never want to have sex EXCEPT because of societal pressure? Is that what you are saying? Can you give me a yes or no answer please?

Girls are sexualized from a young age in this society to veiw themselves as sex objects.

I agree. I don't agree that it's solely the fault of men, though.

Biologically MALES experience a sexual peak in addition to their sexual development in their TEENS and early twenties and NOT FEMALES.

I agree. but you do agree that females do have a libido as teens, right? And that this libido also plays a role in when and why teenage girls have sex, right? Or are you denying this?

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capeo
No the science you posted has nothing to do with reality though as it is experienced.

That is WHY you needed to isolate your situation to an island in order to make it work.

You can go on and on about the properties of water but if its in a freezer then its pointless is it not?

So take the scientific properties you posted and realize that its akin to these kids living in a freezer, only the freezer is this conditioning center of media.

Thanks

Why do you insist on taking all the social factors I cited out of the context I'm presenting? We agree on this point! I don't think I've had a post yet where I didn't bring up the importance of social and cultural influences. I'm just saying you can't exclude the biological influences and still see the whole picture.

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ASOP

Wow at 7yrs old sex was not even in my mind I was to busy beating boys up roller skating and riding my bike. :yes:

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truethat

Neo are you just trying to keep your thread hopping by making arguments where there is NONE?

Or are you really this confused?

For the third time I am NOT saying that SOME teenage girls don't want to have sex in their teens. I'm saying while the majority of BOYS do want to have sex because of a biological urge the majority of girls do not experience the same level of biological urge.

The reason girls THINK they are experiencing the urge is because society sexualizes these girls from a very young age to view themselves in a sexual way. In addition they educate boys to view girls in a sexual way as well.

Exhibit A.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/3..._designing.html

Exhibit B

http://www.commercialexploitation.org/news/bratzthong.htm

And this is part of the backlash to return to the original thread topic that is so upsetting to parents out there.

Young girls especially are inundated with sexualized versions of themselves and its offensive. It used to be that Disney was safe but I guess this is just another sign of the times.

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