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Neognosis

Jamie Lynn Speers

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truethat

I think personal responsibility is what most of my disagreements with people on this site stem from.

You can see it in Neo's consistent argument that "its natural" to which my reply of "So what?" always goes ignored.

We are not animals (of course someone's going to dash out and say yes we are) maybe this makes me a snob. But I am not an animal and the difference I see among people who act like idiots and those that do not is mostly in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Even if you do make a mistake you take what comes at you without whining about it, that includes backlash for getting preggo. You deal with life, you don't expect it to deal with you.

And this is where maturity comes in and why some people struggle so hard. MMW it isn't tomato tomahto I agree, but its a fine nuance that the less enlightened and self aware struggle with on a tremendous level.

I'm coming to the conclusion that this cult of victimhood and "its not my fault" is what keeps people whining all the time and never doing anything differently.

And as far as the clothing, I posted a link to an article that questions why girls tops for little girls are designed with a gathered bustline and "bikini" tops for little girls when they don't have breasts.

Clothing is sexualized for sure.

Oh and btw

The average age of a Dutch youth's first sexual intercourse is 17.7 years.

So much for the raging hormones that are beyond control in 15 year old girls.

http://www.sec-ed.co.uk/cgi-bin/go.pl/feat...e.html?uid=2375

Edited by truethat

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Neognosis
Even if you do make a mistake you take what comes at you without whining about it, that includes backlash for getting preggo. You deal with life, you don't expect it to deal with you.

It is wrong to ostracize a pregnant teenage girl. She made a mistake yes. She did the wrong thing, yes. But ostracizing her isn't going to un-impregnate her. It will only make things harder for her and the baby. They are going to be hard enough, she doesn't need people turning up their noses in rightious indignation.

I'm talking about a regular person, not JLS.

This isn't denying personal responsibility, so you can can that nonsense, it's not applicable here.

Not ostracizing a pregnant teen

is not denying her responsibility

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truethat
It is wrong to ostracize a pregnant teenage girl. She made a mistake yes. She did the wrong thing, yes. But ostracizing her isn't going to un-impregnate her. It will only make things harder for her and the baby. They are going to be hard enough, she doesn't need people turning up their noses in rightious indignation.

I'm talking about a regular person, not JLS.

This isn't denying personal responsibility, so you can can that nonsense, it's not applicable here.

Not ostracizing a pregnant teen

is not denying her responsibility

And we've spent the better part of a week trying to show you that NORMAL kids don't get treated the way JLS is being treated.

She's being treated this way because of her status on a Disney show. Are you really this obtuse that you can't see the difference?

Who do you know was ostracized? Your cousin? Please I know loads of people that got pregnant as a teenager or unexpectedly and no one treats them like Hester Prynne! (That's a character in a book btw)

Big deal, the girl gets treated poorly for a while. Most people are more concerned about the child that's being born not the girl being put down. And frankly I see also that most people are judged harshly for their character not for their hardships.

If someone acts trashy people tend to respond in kind.

Jeeze Drama Queen Much?

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Neognosis
And we've spent the better part of a week trying to show you that NORMAL kids don't get treated the way JLS is being treated.

I never implied that they did.

In fact, I went out of my way to ask how you folks would treat a regular pregnant teen in your neighborhood. And some of you responded that you would not let them babysit your kids anymore, you would not let your daughters be friends with them, and you would not associate with them.

One of you, in fact I think it might have been you TT, said that I would be a bad parent for being disappointed if my kid wanted to shun a friend of hers because she got pregnant, and ininvite her to a party.

I think that is shamefull.

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MissMelsWell

Has anyone here ever spent any time in the Netherlands? I mean real time, not just tourist time.

Yes, they have a rather open sex trade industry... but it doesn't permate their society anymore (although it used to to an extent).

Sometimes I think people have this idea that the Netherlands is a wiggling den of porn, drugs and free love. The reality is that you do sort of have to go looking for it. And most tourists do go looking, therefore they find it.

It's also worthwhile to keep in mind that the dutch have a very good standard of living for the most part, excellent access to medical care, and a pretty darn good educational system.

Being exposed to sex and actually sexualizing children are two VERY different things. The dutch don't tend to sexualize their young people like we do here in the USA.

Edited by MissMelsWell

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capeo
I think personal responsibility is what most of my disagreements with people on this site stem from.

You can see it in Neo's consistent argument that "its natural" to which my reply of "So what?" always goes ignored.

We are not animals (of course someone's going to dash out and say yes we are) maybe this makes me a snob. But I am not an animal and the difference I see among people who act like idiots and those that do not is mostly in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Even if you do make a mistake you take what comes at you without whining about it, that includes backlash for getting preggo. You deal with life, you don't expect it to deal with you.

And this is where maturity comes in and why some people struggle so hard. MMW it isn't tomato tomahto I agree, but its a fine nuance that the less enlightened and self aware struggle with on a tremendous level.

I'm coming to the conclusion that this cult of victimhood and "its not my fault" is what keeps people whining all the time and never doing anything differently.

And as far as the clothing, I posted a link to an article that questions why girls tops for little girls are designed with a gathered bustline and "bikini" tops for little girls when they don't have breasts.

Clothing is sexualized for sure.

Obviously we are animals and you know that. Our sexual development and interactions actually have a lot in common with our closest relatives. Understanding the effect our physiology has on us IS personal responsibility. Just as understanding the social factors that effect us is. I don't see anywhere that I've argued against personal responsibility.

Oh and btw

So much for the raging hormones that are beyond control in 15 year old girls.

http://www.sec-ed.co.uk/cgi-bin/go.pl/feat...e.html?uid=2375

Uh, who is that directed at? I've said repeatedly, over and over, that nothing is beyond control. I'm the one who posted the Holland article and was pointing out that increased sexual education defeats any amount of sexualization in culture.

Edited by capeo

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Neognosis

For some reason, it seems that Truethat NEEDS us to believe that people can't controll their sexual urges.

Despite the fact that nobody has said that or believes that, she keeps coming back to that again and again and again and accusing us of thinking that. I can't figure out why.

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truethat

I notice how the conversation grinds to a halt when its pointed out that the average age of the first sexual encounter for the dutch is 17.7 years old. That's nearly legal age of consent in this country.

How pray tell did they do this? If its natural? If its biological and the kids can't control themselves how is it possible?

Here's a little tidbit that also agrees with what we've been saying that will also probably be ignored

Moreover, young people's sexual and contraceptive behavior does not occur in isolation from wider social and structural influences. For example, 1990 Natsal data indicate that children of divorced parents first have sex at a significantly younger age than those whose parents are still married.18 Models of social development and problem behavior have further identified factors that predict young people's behaviors, such as sexual risk-taking;19 these models suggest that young people who show commitment to social attachments and to conventional values, activities and institutions are less likely than others to engage in antisocial behavior and activities, including sexual risk-taking. Several studies have shown the impact on teenagers' future sexual behavior of family relationships and bonds, including supportiveness of the family environment, the extent of parental monitoring and intergenerational communication.20

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3419102.html

Basically teaching kids that the sexual drive is a natural thing and not an overwhelming desire that makes it as such that "kids are going to have sex anyway" but instead teaching "You might want to have sex but you can m********e or deal with it in different ways"

Its upsetting to me to see men on this site basically stating that teenagers are being biologically driven to have underage sex. Its disgusting that people are not even considering that kids are reading this and might be influenced.

To girls I say you are being sold a bill of goods. You are being told that "there's nothing to be ashamed of its natural go for it but use a condom"

But the bottom line is the sexual drive you might be experiencing is exacerbated by the constant barrage of media telling you that you should want to be sexual.

Take the example of the Netherlands where women are treated much differently than women in this culture and realize that you don't naturally desire sex until you are much older. Try to notice where you are being fed a bunch of bullspit, by some over grown pubescent boys that never grew up.

Don't let these kinds of clowns convince you.

Edited by truethat

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ravergirl
Are you speaking about in the Netherlands?

The article seemed to cite the Netherlands open attitude as the cause for it's low rates of teen pregnancy, in contrast with the mixed messages our society gives out.

no im an american so i went through it in america.but sex ed is to teach you about your body as it starts to develop and is kinda important to know before you actually go through it. cuz it is important to take a gymnastics class before you sign up for the olympics. it helps.

We are not animals (of course someone's going to dash out and say yes we are) maybe this makes me a snob. But I am not an animal and the difference I see among people who act like idiots and those that do not is mostly in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

well we are animals, of course someone is going to say it but not wild ones. of course we should operate with decorum. but it is different strokes for different folks. I can offend you in a hot second just by experiencing things that you didn't and those things are what develop the way you act. i am no less of a person than you I just value somethings higher than others.i value honesty above modesty for example.

Even if you do make a mistake you take what comes at you without whining about it, that includes backlash for getting preggo. You deal with life, you don't expect it to deal with you.

Big B.S. Not for one second will i "take" public humiliation and ridicule for a mistake made by me. and any one who would doesn't deserve respect. if i were 16 years old and pregnant people would be minding their business about it. my life, my mistakes, are not your entertainment. i would legally backhand with some litigation someone who popped off with some backlash about me and sue them for defamation of character. even my own mother.

I'm coming to the conclusion that this cult of victimhood and "its not my fault" is what keeps people whining all the time and never doing anything differently.

i agree people need to take responsibility for their actions and quit blaming it on hollywood and movie stars...and political correctness.

And as far as the clothing, I posted a link to an article that questions why girls tops for little girls are designed with a gathered bustline and "bikini" tops for little girls when they don't have breasts.

Clothing is sexualized for sure.

designers make them......parents buy them...parents fault.

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Neognosis
notice how the conversation grinds to a halt when its pointed out that the average age of the first sexual encounter for the dutch is 17.7 years old. That's nearly legal age of consent in this country.

How pray tell did they do this? If its natural? If its biological and the kids can't control themselves how is it possible?

Holy crap, there it is again.

ONE MORE TIME...NOBODY IS SAYING THAT KIDS CAN'T CONTROLL THEMSELVES.

How many more times are you going to say that?

Now, they hold off another year and a half, in my opinion, because they get frank, open, and unabashed information about sex, both in school and in their culture.

We, on the other hand, make sex something to be ashamed of, while contradictorilly dressing our kids like hookers.

Here's a little tidbit that also agrees with what we've been saying that will also probably be ignored

Nobody's ignoring OR contesting that societal factors influence sexual behavior. Nobody has contested that in pages now, so you can come down off your cross.

Its upsetting to me to see men on this site basically stating that teenagers are being biologically driven to have underage sex.

there it is again....the anti male bias. Nobody is saying that the urge is 100% biological. But we aren't denying that there IS a biological urge. you aren't either. So you can stop getting upset.

To girls I say you are being sold a bill of goods. You are being told that "there's nothing to be ashamed of its natural go for it but use a condom"

Are you saying that there IS something to be ashamed of in the sexual desire of teenagers? Because I don't think there is. I would like to say that it's nothing to be ashamed of, you should wati, but if you don't wait, at least use protection.

How horrible!

Take the example of the Netherlands where women are treated much differently than women in this culture and realize that you don't naturally desire sex until you are much older.

In the netherlands they believe that women don't want sex until much older? Cite please.

by some over grown pubescent boys that never grew up.

Ah, more anti- male venom. Not very productive.

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ASOP

Ahhhh Neo..... I thought it was you saying that people have a hard time controling there urge for sex.

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capeo
I notice how the conversation grinds to a halt when its pointed out that the average age of the first sexual encounter for the dutch is 17.7 years old. That's nearly legal age of consent in this country.

How pray tell did they do this? If its natural? If its biological and the kids can't control themselves how is it possible?

Here's a little tidbit that also agrees with what we've been saying that will also probably be ignored

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3419102.html

Basically teaching kids that the sexual drive is a natural thing and not an overwhelming desire that makes it as such that "kids are going to have sex anyway" but instead teaching "You might want to have sex but you can m********e or deal with it in different ways"

Its upsetting to me to see men on this site basically stating that teenagers are being biologically driven to have underage sex. Its disgusting that people are not even considering that kids are reading this and might be influenced.

To girls I say you are being sold a bill of goods. You are being told that "there's nothing to be ashamed of its natural go for it but use a condom"

But the bottom line is the sexual drive you might be experiencing is exacerbated by the constant barrage of media telling you that you should want to be sexual.

Take the example of the Netherlands where women are treated much differently than women in this culture and realize that you don't naturally desire sex until you are much older. Try to notice where you are being fed a bunch of bullspit, by some over grown pubescent boys that never grew up.

Don't let these kinds of clowns convince you.

Wow, True, now you've completely crossed the line. Seriously, you're being an ass. Stop accusing me of saying things I didn't. What is your problem? Neither Neo nor I have said anything is uncontrollable so stop accusing us of saying we did. It's bordering on offensive. Are you really so dim that you can't understand the role of biology in sexual behavior or is it that you just want to ignore it? You've posted basically the same thing three or four times in a row and are now using my point about the Netherlands as though you pointed out as a good model to follow. Sorry, you're wrong about the one sticking point you can't get over because teenage girls do exhibit a sex drive. Ignoring it is not responsible anymore than ignoring a teenage boys more direct sex drive. Neo, myself, ravergirl are all saying education is the answer. God, get over yourself. I don't think you're even reading our posts objectively. Nobody is even disagreeing with 99% of your points.

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Neognosis
I thought it was you saying that people have a hard time controling there urge for sex.

No, I didn't say that. TRUETHAT keeps saying I did, but I didn't.

I'm saying that young people often have libidos that outreach their common sense or experience, and that because of this, no matter what you do, sometimes kids are going to end up having sex even though they know they shouldn't. That's not to elminate them from responsibility, it's just reality. Does anyone disagree with that?

I think nearly all guys have done something they later regretted, or acted stupidly just to get the girl. We (men) all do dumb things to get sex at some point or another. Most women do dumb things and make bad decisions to get affection at some point in their lives too. It's part of who we are as human beings.

Are people unable to controll their sex drive? Of course not. But it's ridiculous to say that it doesn't influence us at varying points. I don't think anyone is saying that it doesn't influence us, are they?

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ravergirl

truethat you keep jumping to this extreem that says to me that you feel that not living very ridgedly makes you uncivilized and an animal. and it doesn't IMO. You also act as though being publicly ridiculed or even exiled should be expected after displaying deviant behavior. im i mistaken?

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eqgumby
no im an american so i went through it in america.but sex ed is to teach you about your body as it starts to develop and is kinda important to know before you actually go through it. cuz it is important to take a gymnastics class before you sign up for the olympics. it helps.

well we are animals, of course someone is going to say it but not wild ones. of course we should operate with decorum. but it is different strokes for different folks. I can offend you in a hot second just by experiencing things that you didn't and those things are what develop the way you act. i am no less of a person than you I just value somethings higher than others.i value honesty above modesty for example.

Big B.S. Not for one second will i "take" public humiliation and ridicule for a mistake made by me. and any one who would doesn't deserve respect. if i were 16 years old and pregnant people would be minding their business about it. my life, my mistakes, are not your entertainment. i would legally backhand with some litigation someone who popped off with some backlash about me and sue them for defamation of character. even my own mother.

i agree people need to take responsibility for their actions and quit blaming it on hollywood and movie stars...and political correctness.

designers make them......parents buy them...parents fault.

THAT is pretty darn funny. Good luck with that.

And your mistake, your problem, means you get no state sponsored aid. Carry on.

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ravergirl
THAT is pretty darn funny. Good luck with that.

And your mistake, your problem, means you get no state sponsored aid. Carry on.

why would you just sit there and allow people who don't know you to just rail into you because you decided to do something and it didn't work out in your favor. i don't think so. besides i work

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eqgumby
why would you just sit there and allow people who don't know you to just rail into you because you decided to do something and it didn't work out in your favor. i don't think so. besides i work

Did you when you were 16? How many teens DO wind up sucking the government teet after getting knocked up? You live in a rich fantasy world. I don't go out looking for pregnant teens to make faces at. But I don't respect them and support them in their decisions either, and when MY tax dollars get spent on them because THEY made a mistake...yeah, that irks me.

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ravergirl
Did you when you were 16? How many teens DO wind up sucking the government teet after getting knocked up? You live in a rich fantasy world. I don't go out looking for pregnant teens to make faces at. But I don't respect them and support them in their decisions either, and when MY tax dollars get spent on them because THEY made a mistake...yeah, that irks me.

I have been working since I was 12. i do not live in a fantasy world. I deal with extreemly harsh reality every day. you go ahead and complain about YOUR tax dollars, but YOUR tax dollars are responsible for other stuff too

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chaosdarksoulz
Did you when you were 16? How many teens DO wind up sucking the government teet after getting knocked up? You live in a rich fantasy world. I don't go out looking for pregnant teens to make faces at. But I don't respect them and support them in their decisions either, and when MY tax dollars get spent on them because THEY made a mistake...yeah, that irks me.

:lol:I'm so sorry for my ignorance peolpe but that just made me laugh.... lol ^_^

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ravergirl
Did you when you were 16? How many teens DO wind up sucking the government teet after getting knocked up? You live in a rich fantasy world. I don't go out looking for pregnant teens to make faces at. But I don't respect them and support them in their decisions either, and when MY tax dollars get spent on them because THEY made a mistake...yeah, that irks me.

how many lazy fathers irk off on their wives and children and don't help raise them a year. Answer that one hotshot. My father wasn't 16 he was 25 when i was born, where is that guy sucking on the government teet as you say while my mother and I struggled (but we made it) and avoiding jail by staying out of my state. what difference does it make if she is 16 or 36 if the men just run off at the slightest hint of real responsiblity in the first place. I figure since that is the way it really is I wish I had had kids at 16 years old so that i could have the energy to chase them around. THAT would have been smart since you know the government is offering that teet out like a tap on a keg at a frat party. plus we would have the same school schedule and that would have eliminated the need for daycare huh.

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Stixxman

ohhhhhhhhh i see trouble, calm down raver, some have not lived as much me thinks

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eqgumby
how many lazy fathers irk off on their wives and children and don't help raise them a year. Answer that one hotshot. My father wasn't 16 he was 25 when i was born, where is that guy sucking on the government teet as you say while my mother and I struggled (but we made it) and avoiding jail by staying out of my state. what difference does it make if she is 16 or 36 if the men just run off at the slightest hint of real responsiblity in the first place. I figure since that is the way it really is I wish I had had kids at 16 years old so that i could have the energy to chase them around. THAT would have been smart since you know the government is offering that teet out like a tap on a keg at a frat party. plus we would have the same school schedule and that would have eliminated the need for daycare huh.

Ah, there we go. Man-hate. That explains plenty.

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ravergirl
ohhhhhhhhh i see trouble, calm down raver, some have not lived as much me thinks

im calm. cool. collected. always am. cooler than the other side of the pillow.

Ah, there we go. Man-hate. That explains plenty.

This has nothing to do with man hate, I don't man bash. you can only be an irresponsible pregnant teenaged girl for so long. what about the men that abandon their children that they created with said females and vanished. a girl gets pregnant and she gets a 30 some odd page thread that has branched off so much it could be an old oak tree and i ask about irresponsible fathers and it is man hate. no baby i don't think so. abandoned children is a much larger, much more prevalent problem than teen pregnancy. see all these men and even truethat can talk all this blah blah blah about teen girls and forcing, pushing, pressure, sex, babies, abortion, adoption and on and on, but we can't talk about the other end....well it takes two to tango pal and i can guess who has more fun from that dance.

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chaosdarksoulz
how many lazy fathers irk off on their wives and children and don't help raise them a year. Answer that one hotshot. My father wasn't 16 he was 25 when i was born, where is that guy sucking on the government teet as you say while my mother and I struggled (but we made it) and avoiding jail by staying out of my state. what difference does it make if she is 16 or 36 if the men just run off at the slightest hint of real responsiblity in the first place. I figure since that is the way it really is I wish I had had kids at 16 years old so that i could have the energy to chase them around. THAT would have been smart since you know the government is offering that teet out like a tap on a keg at a frat party. plus we would have the same school schedule and that would have eliminated the need for daycare huh.

Responsibility comes a long way before the moment where two people end up with a child and realise one of them can't handle it. Responsibility is also there at the point where you make the decision that ultimately leads to this moment, unwanted babies, no marriage but just a household family, the mental breakdown and repracautions of either parent etc...

In short Im just saying that if either individual understands responsibility and has a good mind set, then they would not be in this situation in the first place...

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Stixxman

yeah I really think their not teaching guys about taking care of their responsibilities. Even if you don't marry the girl you still have a responsibility to the child you produced, any personal hang ups with the mom is not relevant, get over them guys, take care of your kids. On the flip side your disagreements with your exs is not an excuse to use the child as a weapon against them. Leave your problems between the two adults. There are certain things that happen that just have no alternate setting and one of them is child rearing, how you feel day to day doesn't matter.

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