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Neognosis

Jamie Lynn Speers

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Neognosis
Its that she is irresponsibly having illegal sex, the pregnancy is just proof of this.

So what? i'm not in the business of condemning people for their mistakes. Has anyone passed judgement on you for doing something they thought was wrong but you didn't? Besides, SHE didn't break the law, her BOYFRIEND did. So your premise that she should be ostracized because she broke the law is flawed. She didn't break the law. Legally, she's the victim. Do you like blaming and ostracizing the victim?

I submit that the condemning and ostracization of a girl who gets herself into a situation like this contributs to more abortions, though.

Based on what?

Based on the fact that if you ostracize a girl who is in that situation, the next girl who finds herself in that same situation is likely to get an abortion just to avoid your judgement and ostracization.

I submit that blowing off having sex at 16 as being no big deal is what contributes to more sex and abortion all around. Newsflash if you don't have sex you can't get pregnant in the first place.

Newsflash: 16 year old kids have been having sex since the dawn of our species. Newsflash: this will never change. Newsflash: even in the most restrictive cultures, it still happens.

No but do you have anything to support that she is this moral person you keep spouting off about?

I think that the decision to not abort the child despite the condemnation and name calling shows some sense of responsibility.

They are vilifying her for illegally having SEX

You're villifying a statutory rape victim? And you think this is a good thing?

So it lets young 16 year olds believe that its not the end of the world if you happen to get pregnant. So stop stressing right? Don't think twice about having sex. If you get pregnant you can keep the baby. Look and Jamie Lynn! She did! And she's not falling apart!

that's ridiculous. I HIGHLY doubt that this is going to make any rational 16 year old girl want to get pregnant, especially if her parents are raising her, and not the television. Instead, though, what we are teaching the kids is that it is good to ostracize someone who made a bad choice. And I don't agree with that.

Its about the idea that it sends a message that having sex at 16 is ok and if you get pregnant you can do what Jamie did and keep the baby.

If you are raising your own kids, the message should be that she did something wrong, made a mistake, and now it's going to be rough and she has to pay for it, but at least she's taking responsibility. I don't agree with ostracizing and calling a pregnant teenager a whore. If you are pro abortion, then that's one thing. But you can't want to reduce the number of abortions and also ostracize someone who decided not to have one.

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Stixxman

I know one thing i would keep you and this guy away from my daughters................for different reasons

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Princess Serenity

"Nick is considering special on Jamie Lynn Spears Pregnancy."

I'm watching FNC now. And they're talking about Jamie. >_<"

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The Skeptic Eric Raven
So what? i'm not in the business of condemning people for their mistakes. Has anyone passed judgement on you for doing something they thought was wrong but you didn't? Besides, SHE didn't break the law, her BOYFRIEND did. So your premise that she should be ostracized because she broke the law is flawed. She didn't break the law. Legally, she's the victim. Do you like blaming and ostracizing the victim?

I am. Thats how I roll. :yes: By the way, I think you are Jamie's father. Thats the only way your posts would make sense. B)

Based on the fact that if you ostracize a girl who is in that situation, the next girl who finds herself in that same situation is likely to get an abortion just to avoid your judgement and ostracization.

Good for her. Its a choice. I really didn't like the idea of abortion, but you are turning me in to a pro choice person.

I think that the decision to not abort the child despite the condemnation and name calling shows some sense of responsibility.

Like I said, she had to do it. She is an idiot.

You're villifying a statutory rape victim? And you think this is a good thing?

Whatever man.

Edited by Eric Raven The Skeptic

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Neognosis
Good for her. Its a choice. I really didn't like the idea of abortion, but you are turning me in to a pro choice person.

My original question isn't for you or those who are pro choice though.

My question was for conservatives who are decidely anti-abortion.

For them, I wonder how you can condemn and ostracize someone who made an obvious mistake

when doing so is likely

to result in more people in the same situation

having abortions

partly because of the way you treat people who end up in that situation

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Forget Jamie Lynn, forget that we dont' like that she had sex at 16, whatever.

Just consider the logic of behaving in a way that is likely to encourage other girls who are in the same situation

to have an abortion

How can you they claim to be against abortion

when they behave in such a way

that it makes it so much harder

for a girl to carry her child to term?

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The Skeptic Eric Raven
My original question isn't for you or those who are pro choice though.

My question was for conservatives who are decidely anti-abortion.

For them, I wonder how you can condemn and ostracize someone who made an obvious mistake

when doing so is likely

to result in more people in the same situation

having abortions

partly because of the way you treat people who end up in that situation

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Forget Jamie Lynn, forget that we dont' like that she had sex at 16, whatever.

Just consider the logic of behaving in a way that is likely to encourage other girls who are in the same situation

to have an abortion

How can you they claim to be against abortion

when they behave in such a way

that it makes it so much harder

for a girl to carry her child to term?

Your point of view and pretty much everyone else on this thread is never going to meet. Apparently we see it another way.Oh well.Happy Holidays. I think I am done(perhaps).

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truethat
Newsflash: 16 year old kids have been having sex since the dawn of our species. Newsflash: this will never change. Newsflash: even in the most restrictive cultures, it still happens.

Newsflash, GLORIFYING it makes kids think its ok to do it more.

that's ridiculous. I HIGHLY doubt that this is going to make any rational 16 year old girl want to get pregnant, especially if her parents are raising her, and not the television. Instead, though, what we are teaching the kids is that it is good to ostracize someone who made a bad choice. And I don't agree with that.

No one is vilifying her for HAVING the baby Neo. You are just on one of your typical rants. Please show me ONE conservative who has stated "She should have an abortion that dratted girl"

And you are saying any "rational" 16 year old girl. That's pretty much an oxymoron when it comes to teenagers and sex. I'm sorry but you don't know what the heck you are talking about and its ridiculous. She's 16 years old and she's having a baby. That sends the message that getting pregnant is NOT the end of the world which also seems to be your ignorant rant as well.

You are saying "Its not the end of the world to get pregnant at 16 so lets cheer her on! Good girl JL for making the moral choice"

But wake up and face reality. For most normal 16 year old girls getting pregnant at 16 IS the end of their world. Absolutely. I don't think you have a child otherwise you would not be so blase about the idea of having a baby at 16. A baby is LOT of work and a baby needs a good mother and a good father. As I said maybe JL is someone that has a team of assistants and a million dollar bank account but most people, most ADULTS I know who have kids struggle economically especially these days.

So when those teen agers who think its "not the end of the world" to get pregnant wind up on welfare with babies uh well won't you feel that its so much better that they didn't have an abortion. Good on them. When they are eating Ramen noodles and stuck in every weekend with no social life and their education in the toilet, won't you feel so proud of the good example that Jamie Lynn helped inspire in them to keep the baby.

If you are raising your own kids, the message should be that she did something wrong, made a mistake, and now it's going to be rough and she has to pay for it, but at least she's taking responsibility. I don't agree with ostracizing and calling a pregnant teenager a whore. If you are pro abortion, then that's one thing. But you can't want to reduce the number of abortions and also ostracize someone who decided not to have one.

I haven't called her a whore or ostracized her. Frankly you seem pretty histrionic about poor JL. I doubt very much the girl is curled up in a ball weeping. Actually she seems pretty happy about the whole thing. I'm sure its no surprise that people call her names. Its part of being in the limelight. This isn't the first time.

You are making it sound like the prom scene from Carrie and doing your usual MO of getting p***ed off when people won't agree with you so you are getting extreme. I'm not vilifying a rape victim. What kind of ridiculous statement is that? Its a technical term. Give me a break.

What I am doing is pointing out a fact. It is illegal to have sex with most 16 year old girls. And if a girl LIES and tells a guy she's 18 he can still go to jail for consensual sex especially if she gets pregnant. She knows it is illegal for her boyfriend to have sex with her so why is she doing it?

Personal responsibility much?

Oh wait its just the guys fault....got it.

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sickpuppy

she's pregnant?

bwahahahaha

classic

:P

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Neognosis
Newsflash, GLORIFYING it makes kids think its ok to do it more.

NOT condemning and ostracizing someone is NOT glorifying. We can treat someone with respect and compassion without glorifying behavior we don't agree with.

No one is vilifying her for HAVING the baby Neo. You are just on one of your typical rants. Please show me ONE conservative who has stated "She should have an abortion that dratted girl"

MY point is that this same group who claims to be agains abortion are, through their rampant condemnation, in fact making abortion a more attractive option for other girls who end up in this situation.

I've not heard one conservative say "well, she messed up and that's bad, but at least she's owning up to it and taking responsibility rather than having an abortion."

All I've heard from that side is the condemnation and ostracization. NOT conducive to making abortion less attractive.

She's 16 years old and she's having a baby. That sends the message that getting pregnant is NOT the end of the world which also seems to be your ignorant rant as well.

Well, true, getting pregnant at 16 is NOT the end of the world. It's hard, it's a bad thing, but life will go on. My cousin got pregnant at 17. My family overwhelmingly was disappointed, but they helped supported her in her decision to keep the baby, they helped her and her boyfriend build a life, my father in-law helped her boyfriend find a better job (he was 18), and they helped her through the whole thing and made a bad situation better.

I suspect that if she thought we all were going to call her a whore and not show up at family functions where she was going to be, she might have kept quiet and just had an abortion. But then we would not have my cousin Torrie, who's 17 herself now.

When they are eating Ramen noodles and stuck in every weekend with no social life and their education in the toilet, won't you feel so proud of the good example that Jamie Lynn helped inspire in them to keep the baby.

Well, my cousin and her boyfriend got their own place the next year when my cousin turned 18, she finished high school with help from her parents, and finished college a few years ago when their kid was in grade school.

So, with support (NOT ostracization) they built a nice life and are still together today.

I haven't called her a whore or ostracized her

Not everything is about you, Truethat. Folks in the media, notably conservative pundits, are doing just that. And these are supposed to be the folks who want to end abortion. but their behavior is making it a more attractive option.

I'm not vilifying a rape victim. What kind of ridiculous statement is that?

Guess what, the problem is not the pregnancy. Its that she is irresponsibly having illegal sex

YOU wanted her vilified for breaking a LAW. But she DIDN'T break a law. He did.

Personal responsibility much?

In having sex? No. But in keeping the child? Yes, I think so.

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Bill Hill

Look, I'm not saying all cases... but yeah definitely in this case, the death penalty should be implemented!

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ASOP

Jamie's mom knew she was having sex with this young man ever since she was 14 yrs old. I thank GOD for my mother everyday and how my parents raised me. We were not millionaires and times were hard for us growing up at 14 sex was not even on my mind. Jamie is a wealty young girl and will never really raise this child and most of us on this post know that....she will have (pay) people to take care of this child and the only time it will look like she is mommy is when the camra is in her face and to make it look good for her she will have jr. on her hip. How many young girls who have babys and kill the child AFTER BIRTH? Its very sad. Jamie is not responsable Neognosis,no matter how YOU look at it she is not just because she chose to keep the child and to tell the world does not make her a good role model for young girls. This is a "WRONG" and she should be takin off the show there are many young girls with better morals that would love to take her place.

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MissMelsWell

People are wondering how the Spears girls came by their fame?

I'd say they were ripe for Disney's pickings. Lil ole Brit got her start with them too. Disney saw two cute little girls with an over-ambitious and frankly, naive AND driven mother. Perfect for the pickin's. In other words, mom was stupid enough and willing enough to do whatever they told her to do.

If I had to guess, this pregnancy was partially planned if unconciously. The little spears has seen her sister go off the deep end, her mother is insane, she's 16 years old and has obvioulsy be corporately parented by Disney, she's been given the work schedule and responsibilities of an adult with no real adult to guide her and I'd be willing to guess that on some level she knew that getting pregnant would get her out of the whole mess... In her 16 year old mind, perhaps the only way.

My guess is, according to her own statements... she thinks she's going to go home to Louisiana to raise the kid. That's very telling in my opinion. How much ya wanna bet she felt it was the only way to get herself home and away from all the insanity?

I was a teen parent more or less, I feel like I know how the teenaged girls mind works sometimes (I raised a girl as well) and I'd be willing to bet that on some level this is what's happing to this kid. I think on a level she was hoping that this would destroy her career.

It's sad so many adults let her down.

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Neognosis
Look, I'm not saying all cases... but yeah definitely in this case, the death penalty should be implemented

HA!

Now that was funny. Good one, Billy.

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Neognosis
How many young girls who have babys and kill the child AFTER BIRTH?

Do you think that mass ostracization and condemnation of a pregnant teen might have a little to do with this? do you think that if pregnant teens were treated as something other than pariahs, maybe they wouldn't do this as often?

Its very sad. Jamie is not responsable

I think she WAS NOT responsible, but now she is being more responsible. In my opinin, an abortion would be easier.

Neognosis,no matter how YOU look at it she is not just because she chose to keep the child and to tell the world does not make her a good role model for young girls.

I don't think she's a role model. I just dont' understand how conservatives can claim to be against abortion when their actions seem to drive teenage girls towards it.

My guess is, according to her own statements... she thinks she's going to go home to Louisiana to raise the kid. That's very telling in my opinion. How much ya wanna bet she felt it was the only way to get herself home and away from all the insanity?

I was a teen parent more or less, I feel like I know how the teenaged girls mind works sometimes (I raised a girl as well) and I'd be willing to bet that on some level this is what's happing to this kid. I think on a level she was hoping that this would destroy her career.

that's very intersting....

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Bill Hill

:lol: I have me moments.. not many but....

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MissMelsWell

I think there's probably another part of it too...

This little girl has had no parenting for most of her formative years. There's probably another part of her that craves to be a child and have real parents who impose rules and guidance. She deep down realizes at 16 that's never going to happen and there's a rebellious side that's saying "Well fine, if no one is going to parent me, I'll show them how it's done" Which is naive ... but it's a very very real 16 year old girl thought process whether it's concious or not.

I know, after several years of thinking about it, there was a part of me that felt that way although I didn't realize it at the time.

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truethat
In having sex? No. But in keeping the child? Yes, I think so.

Finally you've caught up with the rest of the world. LOL. Its not about her being pregnant.

In addition its not as though this girl was the bastion of morality from the conservatives that suddenly was kicked to the curb when she got pregnant.

Its that people are tired of bimbos and ****s being held up as icons to their children. And its everywhere. No matter how much you don't want to hear about Paris or Lindsay its everywhere.

People are tired of these young women who have the opportunity of a life time behaving in such an irresponsible manner.

I'm glad you FINALLY agree that its irresponsible to have sex at 16. I suppose that if its a normal thing in your family and social group for people to get pregnant when they are in high school then its not that big of a deal to you. So you might be biased that way.

For people that do not think this is OK its a big deal. You have to understand that. Some people have really tight morals when it comes to premarital or teenage sex or statutory rape.

Maybe your family is ok with it. I don't think that's the norm. So that's why they are upset.

Again its not the PREGNANCY its the fact that she's yet another teen role model blowing it.

Pink kinda summed it up nicely

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bTzY-o-Y4y8

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Neognosis

Wow, interesting, Melswell.

Let me just sum up a point I want to make, without bringing JLS in to it.

I am against abortion. I find it morally reprehensible

But, I do not believe in legislating MY morality

But I would like to reduce abortions

the way to do this, without legislation

is to educate young people about sex, encourage them to wait, but provide them with the knowledge to reduce the chances of pregnancy if they do not wait.

When that fails, the next level is to provide support and and compassion to make keeping the child a more viable alternative

than it would be if people shunned pregnant teens.

Agree or disagree, is my point at least clear?

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Neognosis
I'm glad you FINALLY agree that its irresponsible to have sex at 16.

I never said or even implied anything to the contrary.

suppose that if its a normal thing in your family and social group for people to get pregnant when they are in high school then its not that big of a deal to you.

It's not normal in my family or social group. But what is normal in my family and social group is compassion.

Some people have really tight morals when it comes to premarital or teenage sex or statutory rape.

But some of these same people calim to have "really tight" morals about abortion too. But their behavior would seem to make abortion an attractive alternative.

Let me just sum up a point I want to make, without bringing JLS in to it.

I am against abortion. I find it morally reprehensible

But, I do not believe in legislating MY morality

But I would like to reduce abortions

the way to do this, without legislation

is to educate young people about sex, encourage them to wait, but provide them with the knowledge to reduce the chances of pregnancy if they do not wait.

When that fails, the next level is to provide support and and compassion to make keeping the child a more viable alternative

than it would be if people shunned pregnant teens.

Agree or disagree, is my point at least clear?

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truethat

Your point has nothing to do with Jamie Lynn Spears though. That's what everyone keeps telling you.

The backlash isn't BECAUSE she got pregnant.

Its not as if normal girls that get pregnant at 16 are treated in the same manner as she has been. Its really not about her personally.

In addition MMW that's kinda why I think she got pregnant on purpose as well. Also that her sister is having another one. I think that's a very good indication to show that getting pregnant has an appeal to other teen agers.

In spite of Britney's disastrous experience it did not turn JL off of sex. AT ALL.

Again, Neo, the conservative backlash is not about her HAVING the BABY they would have the same reaction if she DID have the abortion.

The Conservatives are lashing out at Britney too.

You say it makes a difference. It doesn't make one shred of a difference is the reality. As shown, Jamie Lynn is probably MORE responsible than the average teen, she's got a career and has a worldliness that most teens don't have.

And she STILL had sex and got pregnant. Even after watching Britney. If it didn't make HER learn the lesson then its certainly not going to have a positive effect on teens out there who have less maturity.

I think what parents are upset about is that this brings it up again. Where are the positive female role models for our young women?

The Pink Video pretty much sums it up.

Edited by truethat

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Neognosis

The backlash isn't BECAUSE she got pregnant.

But she IS pregnant, and there's nothing we can do about it.

What message is being sent to kids through this dumping on JLS?

Its not as if normal girls that get pregnant at 16 are treated in the same manner as she has been.

Well, one forum member wouldn't let one babysit his kids.

How about the rest of you?

If a teenage girl in your neighborhood got pregnant, would you let them baby sit your kids? What would you tell your kids about them? Would you treat them with compassion or with condemnation?

I'm not looking to prove a point here, I'm genuinely trying to get a feel for what your attitudes are to normal, non-celebrity girls who end up in this situation.

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MissMelsWell

Her pregnancy is just a manifestation of her messed up life.

I don't blame her per se.

It's dicey raising a teenaged girl (and boys too, but girls are really difficult I think) ... they have the bodies of adults, the minds of children.

They see their mothers with power of some sort, and when their own role models are misusing their power, they recognize it. They convince themselves that if they have children, they'll have that power to run their own lives and no one can touch them anymore, that they can have control of their lives and their kids lives. That's what mom's have right?

This little girl is screaming for help and saddly, no one will help her I'm sure. At least not in any way that's useful.

Hopefully she'll be able to do what's in her head at the moment. Go back to Louisiana and fade away into the Bayou. Dollars to doughnuts that won't happen though, even though it's probably what would be best for her and that kid (although the best thing for both of them, in my opinion, would have been a quiet out of the way birth and a secret adoption... that's not possible now though... it might never have been possible, who knows.)

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truethat
But she IS pregnant, and there's nothing we can do about it.

What message is being sent to kids through this dumping on JLS?

Well, one forum member wouldn't let one babysit his kids.

How about the rest of you?

If a teenage girl in your neighborhood got pregnant, would you let them baby sit your kids? What would you tell your kids about them? Would you treat them with compassion or with condemnation?

I'm not looking to prove a point here, I'm genuinely trying to get a feel for what your attitudes are to normal, non-celebrity girls who end up in this situation.

Yes you are. What a silly comment. I have known girls that got pregnant in high school and they weren't ostracized.

Frankly I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Wow listen to what you are saying, if she's a MOTHER at 16 you are worried about her not being able to get a babysitting job.

And you don't see what's messed up with the way you are looking at this??? :hmm:

Oddly I think she learned that getting pregnant gets you buckets of attention in the news. Before she got pregnant most people didn't really give a damn about her.

Now she's a celebrity. I agree with the people who say in three years she'll start a show.

BTW Uh NEO have you ever seen Reba? Girls that get pregnant are not always vilified.

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eqgumby
I wouldn't think she was "bad" for having an abortion either...but I would rather that nobody ever had an abortion and people took responsibility for their actions.

She's at least doing that much, and she should receive some credit for that.

This is true I think, and yes, most conservatievs should be pleased she is not running to have an abortion. But let me see if I can explain why it all seems so wrong to so many people still.

If she was just some girl, it would be rough for her, the father, and both parents. It SHOULD be hard on them, because raising a child is a huge responsibility that the government should NOT be involved it. Average 16 year olds are NOT prepared financially, physically, or emotionally to raise a newborn. Now, along comes this girl...she looks like an 8 year old...plays a cutsie young "tween" on Disney channel, and is idolized by 10-13 year olds. These kids idolize her IMAGE, but they don't recognize that. They don't see the difference between image and reality. Now the parents of these kids are the ones that have to explain that difference, and point out that being pregnant in high-school is NOT a good idea or a good choice, despite what their role-models are doing. And face it, Jamie has positioned herself as a role-model. Along with being a role-model and getting millions of dollars for it should come some responsibility. But no, you'll never see that side of it. Because she is rich, and it'll all be so fun and easy for her, and her family and friends will all put on a brave face and support her 100%. Unlike the REAL world, where grand-parents wind up raising their grand-kids, struggling financially, caring emotionally and financially for a 15 year old kid and a newborn baby, as well as paying for all the medical bills for both kids, etc etc. Ask any parent that WORKS for a living to provide for their families rather than receiving welfare, and they will tell you straight up, a baby is a HUGE financial burden. But Jamie won't be telling ANYONE that. It'll all be easy as pie and peaches and cream for her.

That's why "conservatives" get so bent out of shape. What message does that send to kids? Even liberals agree that kids learn behavior from adults. Society and the people in it determine what is seen as right and wrong, and establish morality. That's why liberals don't want their kids running around playing with toy guns. Right? Do they want their kids watching violent shoot-em-up movies, full of guns and death? Probably no more than they want their children thinking how cool or even just OK it would be to be 16 and pregnant.

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Neognosis
Wow listen to what you are saying, if she's a MOTHER at 16 you are worried about her not being able to get a babysitting job.

I would want to help her earn whatever money she could. Hopefully, she's got a support system at home that will pull together and help her out too.

And you don't see what's messed up with the way you are looking at this???

Why don't you tell me what's messed up with treating a pregnant teen with compassion and support if you want to reduce the chance she'll have an abortion?

BTW Uh NEO have you ever seen Reba? Girls that get pregnant are not always vilified.

No, I'm not really a Reba type of guy, but that's good. Pregant teens should be, in my opinion, an opportunity to teach our kids what can happen if you have sex before you are ready, and also an opportunity to teach them compassion and humanity.

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