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Neognosis

Jamie Lynn Speers

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Neognosis
I'm throwing up the BS flag. If you don't see the lack of morals infecting the world as a problem, then you ARE the problem.

That's our impass. You think that getting pregnant by accident at 16 is worse than condemning and ostracizing a 16 year old that made a mistake. I think that the former is the worse immorality.

It has to do with SOCIAL, not biological evolution, and taking personal responsibility.

The drive to have sex in your teens has EVERYTHING to do with biological evolution. WE, you and I, and everyone else on this planet is here because our ancestors outfought, out ate, and out ****ed everyone else. You can educate your kids, you can advise them, you can even threaten them, but you are fighting a million years of evolution that has rewarded the desire to have sex. No ammount of lecturing is going to make that biological urge go away.

Hell, if every 16 year old took responsibility for their actions and had real responsibilities, they could all get knocked up for all I care.
Responsibility like what? having the kid and working to raise it?

But that's not REALITY. Because 16 year olds that get pregnant DON'T take care of their kids and raise nice productive families that add anything to society and go to college and get married and take care of their parents when they get old and infirm.

it was the reality for my family. My cousin and her boyfriend got jobs, took care of their kid, and things are good today. But they were only able to do that becuase we are a supportive family. When we walked into church and people like YOU scowled and moved away from us, we told them to go pound sand and we stood behind our cousin, who was doing what we see as the right thing. She took responsibility, they raised their kid, and they made a good life.

If my family was full of the desire to condemn and make an example out of her, she might have snuck out and had an abortion and we would not have my cousin Torrie today. But we ignored people who wanted to stay away from her, who wanted to make an example out of my cousin for fear that her kids would want to get pregnant (ridiculous...).

If we can't fight a million years of evolution, I suggest we start killing old people, the r******ed, cripples, etc. Because THAT is evolution. Hell, every day you wake up and go to school or work and shower and wear clothes and eat with a friggin fork, your fighting evolution. Get real.

You don't understand me. The urge to have sex is what sustains our entire species. It is very, very strong. It does not go away because you lecture your kid. We can encourage them to wait, we can teach safer sex, but we will never make that urge go away. Surely, you recognize this?

The fact of the matter is when you make it OK for your kids to have sex then they go ahead and do it.

Who said anything about making it OK for 16 year olds to have sex? That's not my position.

BTW you haven't answered if you have any kids? You don't right?

you should read my posts before you open your mouth, because I did answer that.

So why are you so concerned about how other people raise their kids.

I'm not. i'm wondering why the conservative side that claims to be so anti-abortion, is making it look so attractive.

eggumby answered that for me. The answer seems to be because they don't consider the effect their condemnation will do to kids who are, or who are going to be, in that situation. They only think that by condemning her, their kids won't want to have sex because they will be too scared.

I think that's ludicrous.

Kids will want to have sex even if you tell them you will cut a hand off if you catch them. I know nothing was going to stop me from trying to get some when I was a teenager. it's all I could think about, it's all me and my friends could talk about. Nothing in the world is going to change that.

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truethat

See Neo I told you that it comes down to being of the mindset that you have no control over your sexual urges.

Lets see, My family believes you DO and there's no teen pregnancy in mine or anyone elses that I know of in my extended family. Four daughters NO TEEN PREGNANCY.

My Orthodox Jewish friend teens Nope, no teen pregnancy.

My friends growing up believing that they are in control of it, no teen pregnancy.

Now lets see, the people coddled to believe its "out of their control" uh YEAH lots of teen pregnancy.

You say you had it in your family as well.

So maybe the point is that the MINDSET has a lot to with the outcome. And that's why its upsetting her so much.

BTW here's another tidbit

I think its highly inappropriate of you to post all this information about your cousin and then to post the kids Name on the site. That's very much an invasion of privacy. I hope you changed the name.

Also for you to write "before I open my mouth" welcome to forums. Sometimes people post and miss things. For you to try to somehow turn that into a debate is stupid.

Bottom line you don't have kids. You are not going to be able to understand.

Edited by truethat

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MissMelsWell

It's really not so much that I blame her parents... not entirely.

Actually, I think Disney must in some way be acting irresponsibly... how many "Disney" kids who acheived the kind of fame the Spears girls have, have actually turned out OK?

Not Lindsey, not Brit, not Christina, not miss Duff... they're ALL basket cases (I expect that Duff will be the next one to turn up pg before the age of 25). And those are only the most recent ones. There's history going back with that company of all kinds of seriously screwed up kids. It really makes me wonder what's going on behind the scenes over there. I could be completely wrong in my guess, but I see a pattern that probably shouldn't be ignored.

I actually believe that Disney preys on these children and their parents. They deliberately seek backstage parents that are naive and blinded by the hopes of success.

That doesn't explain all 16yo pregnancies of course, but I think the psychology of pregnant 16 year olds is similar at the foundation.

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Neognosis
See Neo I told you that it comes down to being of the mindset that you have no control over your sexual urges.

There's a difference between having no controll and eliminating them entirely.

You can't shame or lecture or threaten every teenager into not having sex. The best you can do is advise them and educate them and keep your fingers crossed.

Teens dont' have sex because they think it will be consequence free. They have sex because a million years of evolution is telling them to, and sometimes, if the circumstances are right, hormones override common sense and fear.

Lets see, My family believes you DO and there's no teen pregnancy in mine or anyone elses that I know of in my extended family. Four daughters NO TEEN PREGNANCY.

heh, that you know of.

I have ten female cousins, and only one teenage pregnancy. A

My Orthodox Jewish friend teens Nope, no teen pregnancy.

Are you implying there are never any orthodox jewish teen pregnancies? That seems a little bit naive.

My friends growing up believing that they are in control of it, no teen pregnancy.

How old were you and your friends when you first had sex? Honestly.

Now lets see, the people coddled to believe its "out of their control" uh YEAH lots of teen pregnancy.

I'm not saying it's "out of their controll." I'm saying that you can't always win when you fight the most fundamental of all human biological urges.

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Neognosis
I expect that Duff will be the next one to turn up pg before the age of 25

Now it's TWENTY FIVE you have to be before you are not irresponsible?!?!

I don't think you mean that that way, right?

Why shouldn't a millionaire 25 year old have a child if they are prepared to raise it? My parents were 20 and 21, now that I think of it.

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ravergirl

Make it known that a girl made a mistake that a lot of other girls make. This girl has the money to take care of hers and yet she is going to be the one who is crucified through the media over this. Keep in mind that her older sister would never have been as bad off as she is now had her young life been kept partially private.I hope miss jamie lynn survives the torture that WE are about to put her through...btw my mom had me at 17 years old and we are both strong independant career women.

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truethat

In spite of the liberal "condoms prevent pregnancy" campaign, the declining numbers are indeed being show to actually have more to do with ABSTINENCE

Why Are Rates of Teen Pregnancy Declining?

Analysis by the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy and other investigators (including the Guttmacher Institute) suggests that both less sex and more contraceptive use are making important contributions to the decline in the teen pregnancy rate.

That is, teen pregnancy rates have been declining because a smaller proportion of teens were having sex and the pregnancy rate among sexually active teens decreased due to better contraceptive use (and also, perhaps, to less sexual activity among those with some sexual experience).

(Source: What’s Behind the Good News: The Decline in Teen Pregnancy Rates During the 1990s, the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy.)

related links

* *spam filter*ual Activity

* Teen Pregnancy Rates

* Teen Birth Rates

http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/rea...ts/genfacts.asp

You go on with your compassion Neo, I'm going to stick with my kid not getting pregnant or in my case getting someone pregnant in the first place.

I don't think its surprising at all that groups that are regularly painted as "victims" and not encouraged to be "personally responsible" have the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country.

Edited by truethat

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ASOP

Ahhh.... My friends that had kids in high school made an example out of their self so well that I was 39yrs old when I had my 1st and last child. My 2 son's are really my 2nd cousin whom I have raised I was 26yrs old when I got custody of them. Their mother is the BIGGEST whore in the world she had 6 children and had them for a short time she did not want them and she told them that many of times even to this day and they hate her. She put the 3 oldest thru hell when they were small but thats enough of that. The oldest girl told her that she should have had them aborted because she would have spared them so much hurt. She laughs at them and says"yous were my paycheck" Well they are older now and dont look to her for nothing the state mad her get her tubes tied because they would not help her after the 6th child. Abortation is not the anwser all the time and if a family can work thru it fine but if a girl chooses to get an abortion the family should be behind her in that to.

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Neognosis

10 points for Ravergirl.

Although your mom is a horrible person with no moral fibre with no self controll.

(that part is dripping with sarcasm...)

If your mother was the type who would be swayed by all the judgemental people who think they have a responsibility to shun and condemn people that get themelves into this situation, you might not be here. I applaud your mother for doing what I think was the right thing, and I think we need to stop making abortion look like such an attractive option through our rightious indignation, IF we want people to have fewer of them. That's the point I'm trying to make.

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truethat

Ravengirl was your mother shunned and called a whore for having you? Was she ostracized from the community and not allowed to work?

Or did she basically just get judged a bit and deal with his.

I swear Neo sometimes you come across as such a woman. I want to hand you a box of kleenex.

post-40218-1198267845_thumb.jpg

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MissMelsWell
Now it's TWENTY FIVE you have to be before you are not irresponsible?!?!

I don't think you mean that that way, right?

Why shouldn't a millionaire 25 year old have a child if they are prepared to raise it? My parents were 20 and 21, now that I think of it.

Back off Neo... I was barely 20 when I had mine, my mother and father the same... I'm actually glad I had my daughter at that age although it was not the optimal situtation. That being said, I see my sister who had her first at 33... she is a MUCH wiser parent than my mother or I were. I had no money, my mother and father had no money. It's not entirely about money... money can't make you a good parent ... look at Brit!

There's nothing inherently wrong with having kids young, under the right circumstances I support that. However, these little Disney girls had no childhood to speak of, they have a misplaced sense of entitlement in a way (that's grossly worse than other teen stars)... no decent adult role models, and have no real capability to be parents... they live a fantasy, not a reality, and when that reality hits home, that babies are real and require real care, they freak.

We've seen it time and time again. Being a parent isn't all about diapering, feeding, making sure they dont' stick their fingers in lightsockets...it's MUCH more than that, and that's what those little girls don't get, they have no clue about the true work that goes into being a parent. Once they realize that it's not just the mechanics of keeping a kid alive and physically healthy (anyone can do that, a nanny or whatever) but that it's an emotional and mental burdon, they just don't know what to do. OR worse, in Brits case, she hasn't figured out that what she's suppose to shoulder that emotional and mental burdon, she really DID think it was only about diapering and feeding... she still hasn't figured it out.

I'm not talking about the Jane average 16yo, I'm talking about these young ladies specifically.

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Neognosis
In spite of the liberal "condoms prevent pregnancy" campaign, the declining numbers are indeed being show to actually have more to do with ABSTINENCE

Did you even read your own citation?

Teen Contraceptive Use

* Among sexually active high school students, 63% reported that they or their partner used a condom the last time they had sex (up from 53% in 1993).

* Among sexually active high school students, 17% reported that they or their partner used birth controls pills before the last time they had sex.

After increasing 24% between 1986 and 1991, the teen birth rate for girls aged 15-19 declined 35% between 1991 and 2005.

Increasing during Reagan's administration, and then, right after Reagan...and during the swing back to liberalism of the Clinton administration, it went down. It would seem that your own data does not support your conclusion.

Analysis by the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy and other investigators (including the Guttmacher Institute) suggests that both less sex and more contraceptive use are making important contributions to the decline in the teen pregnancy rate.

You must have only read the first part of that sentence.

I don't think its surprising at all that groups that are regularly painted as "victims" and not encouraged to be "personally responsible" have the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country.

I don't think it's surprising that you completely disregerd the trend of about, oh, the past thousand years of the poor having the highest underage birthrate and instead you inject your own politics to come to an unsupported conclusion.

My friends that had kids in high school made an example out of their self so well that I was 39yrs old when I had my 1st and last child.

Well, that was dumb. You increased your kids chances of having down syndrom because you were "scared straight?"

Wonderful.

I hope your kids don't have birth defects, because after 35 your chances go up drastically.

Abortation is not the anwser all the time and if a family can work thru it fine but if a girl chooses to get an abortion the family should be behind her in that to.

I can accept that. although my family would rather we all pull together and help out, rather then abort a child. But we have different values, apparently.

We only have one underage pregnancy in my family. Why didn't our failure to ostracize and condemn my cousin result in anyone else having a teen pregnancy? I mean, isn't it your position that if we don't make an example out of teenage pregnant girls, then our kids are likely to just think it's fun? Why didn't the rest of my female cousins say "gee, everyone is helping Dawn out, it doesn't look so bad! I'll just throw caution to the wind, because my family will help me out!"

I think that they saw how hard it was on my cousin, and their parents were frank and open about things, and eveyone else was pretty carefull about taking precautions.

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Neognosis
There's nothing inherently wrong with having kids young, under the right circumstances I support that. However, these little Disney girls had no childhood to speak of, they have a misplaced sense of entitlement in a way (that's grossly worse than other teen stars)... no decent adult role models, and have no real capability to be parents... they live a fantasy, not a reality, and when that reality hits home, that babies are real and require real care, they freak.

Are you going to tell Hillary Duff when she's grown up enough to have a child then?

How do YOU know what her state of mind is?

i just think that the "before 25" comment was a little bit out there. Now we're going to judge celebrities if they are under 25 and they have a kid? (nevermind that after mid 30's, the chance of birth defects rises significantly...)

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ravergirl
10 points for Ravergirl.

Although your mom is a horrible person with no moral fibre with no self controll.

(that part is dripping with sarcasm...)

If your mother was the type who would be swayed by all the judgemental people who think they have a responsibility to shun and condemn people that get themelves into this situation, you might not be here. I applaud your mother for doing what I think was the right thing, and I think we need to stop making abortion look like such an attractive option through our rightious indignation, IF we want people to have fewer of them. That's the point I'm trying to make.

and the point i am trying to make is that it is not fair to use a child as an example of this regardless of how famous she is. whether or not she does or not it is inappropriate to talk about jamie lynn's situation. She is still legally a child and to speak of her sex life is grossly inappropriate. of course kids make irresponsible decisions. as do adults. use someone elses pregnancy as a thread for prochoice or human rights. but not a childs. it isn't right. and it is in my most serious opinion that a thread speaking about any sexual activity of a minor should be locked immediately.

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MissMelsWell
Are you going to tell Hillary Duff when she's grown up enough to have a child then?

How do YOU know what her state of mind is?

i just think that the "before 25" comment was a little bit out there. Now we're going to judge celebrities if they are under 25 and they have a kid? (nevermind that after mid 30's, the chance of birth defects rises significantly...)

I tink you misunderstood my meaning the number was conceptual and arbitrary... I hope that when and if her or others do make that choice that it's a CHOICE, one they're ready for. Unfortunately, their little stardom ride through their teen years and the mismanagement of their young lives affects them profoundly. Their ongoing behavior should be a red flag that something isn't right. These little girls live out their late teens and early 20's in a very exaggerated way... like the teenagers they never got to be (magnified 100x).

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ASOP

Neo I was not afraid because my friends in school were stupid and had kids I wanted to enjoy my teen years not sit up with crying babies at night. My daughter is healthy,beautiful and smart so as for your remark to say I was dumb is STUPID on your behalf. I was raising cousins (kids cost money) but youdont know what thats like. Dont talk to me as if Im your family member (scared stright) my a!* thats the last thing I was. My daughter has no birth defects and yea when you get older your risks are higher for your baby IN SOME CASES! BUT COMMING FROM YOU PREACHER MAN YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY...I DID THE RIGHT THING I DID NOT GET AN ABORTION. NOW SHUT YOUR HOLE. :angry:

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truethat

Neo

why are you antagonizing everyone who doesn't agree with you? Grow up.

Abstinence is part of why teens pregnancy is decreasing. Using condoms doesn't prevent teen pregnancy completely.

And the comment about downs syndrome was DISGUSTING. People are going to disagree with you and if you can't deal with the heat then stay out of the kitchen.

Edited by truethat

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ravergirl
Ravengirl was your mother shunned and called a whore for having you? Was she ostracized from the community and not allowed to work?

Or did she basically just get judged a bit and deal with his.

I swear Neo sometimes you come across as such a woman. I want to hand you a box of kleenex.

my mother wasn't a public figure. and im sure she was ostracized since she was forced to drop out of high school. again it is none of anyones business...see I said it happened and immediately you start askig personal questions that are none of your business...I didn't say she (jamie) should HAVE to quit working. I said she should take her position in life, that she and her parents chose, seriously and step back and deal with her personal issues in private where they should be taken care of. there are plenty of TV shows that deal with teens going through tough issues, like Degrassi. and like My so called Life did when I was younger. im not saying that issues should not be talked about. but I am saying that if you are a person that knows how many people you influence and you make a personal flub you should deal with it out of the camera flash...

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truethat

Ok so then you agree they brought it on themselves by selling the story to OK?

And btw I don't give a rats a*** about your mothers life story. A simple YES or NO would have done.

High strung people.........sheesh :rolleyes:

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Neognosis
I tink you misunderstood my meaning the number was conceptual and arbitrary

Ok. Sorry about that.

ASOP, I'm sorry I called wating until you were 39 "dumb."

But you did say

My friends that had kids in high school made an example out of their self so well that I was 39yrs old when I had my 1st and last child.

Now you're saying you waited because you were raising your cousins. Fair enough. But the statement I quoted and which I based that comment on says you waited because you saw what your friends went through. You didn't mention raising cousins until later.

Abstinence is part of why teens pregnancy is decreasing. Using condoms doesn't prevent teen pregnancy completely.

Neither does asking kids to be abstinate

and im sure she was ostracized since she was forced to drop out of high school

what the hell kind of people would force a pregnant girl out of high school?

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ravergirl
Ok so then you agree they brought it on themselves by selling the story to OK?

And btw I don't give a rats a*** about your mothers life story. A simple YES or NO would have done.

High strung people.........sheesh :rolleyes:

btw that is really disrespectful. so thanks for that. I feel lovely now. and more people could do with being high strung...it makes up for all of the eye rolling slackers in the world then doesn't it.

a simple yes or no wouldn't do justice to the point. the point is that we are slamming a childs business with all of our abstinence, abortion, to young, irresposible blah blah blah...and the point is that she is a child and she has parents and this is the wrong place to be discussing it. your continuation of the topic is appalling. i want to puke.

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ASOP

Sorry I just gotta say..true you made me laugh my dad use to say I dont give a BIG rats a!*. :lol: Thanks for that.

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truethat
btw that is really disrespectful. so thanks for that. I feel lovely now. and more people could do with being high strung...it makes up for all of the eye rolling slackers in the world then doesn't it.

a simple yes or no wouldn't do justice to the point. the point is that we are slamming a childs business with all of our abstinence, abortion, to young, irresposible blah blah blah...and the point is that she is a child and she has parents and this is the wrong place to be discussing it. your continuation of the topic is appalling. i want to puke.

Hands a bucket to ravergirl.....go on honey. Get it out of your system. :P

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Quiet Pyramid

umm this is in other paranormal related news? what is it supernatural she got pregos? you peeple should put this crap in off topic discussion.

oh well...

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ravergirl
Hands a bucket to ravergirl.....go on honey. Get it out of your system. :P

pukes into bucket and promptly pours over truethat's head....thats only a fraction of the filth

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