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Undeadskeptic

The Brosno Dragon

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Undeadskeptic

From Wikipedia:

The Brosno dragon, also known as Brosnya is the name given to a lake monster which is said to be inhabit Lake Brosno, near Andreapol in North Russia. It is described as resembling a dragon or dinosaur, and is the subject of a number of regional legends, some which are said to date back to the 13th century.

Rumors of a strange, giant creature living in Lake Brosno have existed for several centuries. One legend says that the lake monster scared the Tatar-Mongol army that headed for Novgorod to death in the 13th century. Batu Khan stopped the troops on the sides of Lake Brosno to rest. Horses were allowed to drink water from the lake. However, when the horses ventured down to the lake, a huge roaring creature emerged from the water and started devouring horses and soldiers. The Batu-khan troops were so terrified that they turned back, and Novgorod was saved. Old legends describe an "enormous mouth" devouring fishermen. Chronicles mention a "sand mountain" that appeared on the lake surface from time to time. According to another legend, some Varangians (Swedish mercenaries) wanted to hide stolen treasure in the lake. When they approached the small island, a dragon came to the surface from the lake and swallowed the the island up. The terrible monster haunted people's minds over the 18th - 19th century. It was rumored that the giant creature emerged on the lake surface in the evening, but immediately submerged when people approached. It is said that during World War II the beast swallowed up a German airplane. Today, there are lots of witnesses who say they chanced to see Brosnya walking in the water. Locals say that it turns boats upside-down and has to do with disappearance of people.

Ideas

Many people treat the existence of Brosnya sceptically and still say that the creature may be a mutant beaver or a giant pike of 100-150 years. Others conjecture that groups of wild boars and elks cross the lake from time to time.

There are some more scientific hypotheses concerning Brosnya. One of them is a gas version saying that when hydrogen sulfide goes up from the lake bottom it makes water boil up; this boiling in its turn resembles a dragon head. But the amount of hydrogen sulfide must be considerable to produce this effect. Other version says that there is a volcano in Lake Brosno that makes ejections on the water surface from time to time. It is well-known that there are several fractures at the bottom of the lake, the depth and the direction of the fractures cannot be defined. It is not ruled out that the volcano crater is inside of one of the fractures. This explains why the volcano, if it actually exists, has not been discovered yet. See limnic eruption.

Fishermen say that the underwater world of Lake Brosno has a structure of several levels. From time to time burbots and yellow perch can be found in the lake. For example, herring can be found in a lake in Peno District in the Tver Region. Some consider it strange that sea fish may live in the lake at all. Smelt shoals from time to time can be found in Lake Brosno as well. The phenomenon of Brosnya can be explained from the physical point of view: huge smelt shoals are reflected on the water surface through refraction of light and produces the effect of a huge reptile head. Physicists say that any mirage appears in hot weather. Indeed, witnesses say that they came across Brosnya in summer. However, the origin of the rumours of this strange monster remain a mystery.

From American Monsters:

Laying just 250-miles north-west of Moscow is a relatively small body of water known as Lake Brosno. According to the locals, accounts of a bizarre, glowing, reptilian creature - which reportedly lurks near the bottom of their lake - date back to at least 1854.

Described as being a 16-foot long, "iridescent", dragon-like creature, with a fish-like or serpentine head, this animal has spread terror throughout the small fishing communities located not only on Lake Brosno, but situated on the Volgo river as well. This bizarre form of bioluminescence is rare among cryptids, and has been reported in only two other animals, the winged predators known as the DUAH and the ROPEN.

In 1996, the Itar-Tass news agency reported that many of the residents of Brosno Lake are terrified of what the local press has dubbed "Brosnie," and that many of the citizens of these small villages have taken to fortifying there homes, as quoted from an article released by Reuters News Service:

"I'm afraid," said one elderly woman, Varya, who lives in the small lakeside village of Benyok about 400 km northwest of Moscow. "I do not feel comfortable staying in this place. The monster could crawl into my house any day."

Although there have been some (admittedly blurry) photos taken of this creature, not everyone is taking the reports of this animal so seriously. This was evidenced by the flippant remark made by an obviously skeptical scientist - Lyudmila Bolshakova, of Moscow's Institute of Paleontology - in the same article, who refused to even entertain the notion of investigating this phenomenon:

"It sounds like a country fairy tale, the kind of story told over the years in the countryside."

Thankfully, not all scientists seemed to share Bolshakova's limited assessment of the situation. Tver region paleontologist, Nikolai Dikov, was quoted as saying that, based upon the photographs, this creature was probably related to an animal of decidedly prehistoric origin:

"The creature's alleged shape suggested an extinct order of reptiles with teeth like mammals."

The "extinct order of reptiles," which Dikov was referring to is probably of the family known as Synapsids, whose teeth were differentiated into molars, canines, and incisors, similar to mammal's teeth. In 1997, additional reports of this animal swimming close to onshore settlements caused yet another frenzy of terror along Brosno's coast.

From Laika the Space Dog blog:

Lake Brosno, 50 miles north of Moscow near the city of Tver, is Russia's last hope of a decent monster panic. Far from one isolated sighting, it has a long history of mystery and intrigue from legends of giant snakes and dragons living in the water to underwater volcanoes.

A local caravan magazine, Karavan + Ya (caravan and me), boosted its sales in 1987 by reporting stories of a 'dinosaur' in the lake. Journalists from around Russia and the wider world descended on the place and, as elsewhere in the former USSR, a little hard currency can buy any story you wish to hear. The magazine stills runs small expeditions to seach for the beast. Witnesses report the classic mock-plesiosaur small head on a long neck perching out of the water, a long tail and, unusually, reptilian scales. The monster is reputed to be around 5 metres long.

Members of the 'Kosmopoisk Research Association' carried out echo sounding in the lake in conjunction with the caravan magazine in 2002. On finding a 'huge jelly like mass the size of a railway car about five metres from the bottom' they did what any self respecting Russian naturalist would do and dropped a grenade on it, Vadim Chernobrov, the Kosmopoisk coordinator told Moscow based Argumenty i Facty (Arguments and Facts). The mass moved, but no monster was seen.

The lake, like Loch Ness, is too small at just six miles long to hold a breeding population of a large predator.

Legends of the lake Brosno monster supposedly date from the 8th (or 13th) century, when the creature saved a Russian city from the mongol horde. A Tatar-Mongol army, heading for Novgorod, stopped to water its horses by the lake when a huge beast reared up from its depths, terrifying man and steed alike, and began to devour everything in its path. The Batukhan troops promptly turned tail and fled back to the steppes. Other legends tell of an 'enormous mouth' devouring unwary fishermen and of 'sand mountains' that emerged from time to time. One chronicle relates how a group of Swedish mercenaries (Varangians) planned on hiding stolen treasures in the lake but when they approached the small island they had chosen, a dragon came to the surface and swallowed the small island up.

'Brosnya' was seen again in the 18th and 19th centuries, appearing on the surface during the evening only to disappear when approached. It is even said to have swallowed a German plane during World War II. Locals still say it turns boats upside-down and is involved in the disappearances of people.

As at Loch Ness, the lake is too small and barren to support a breeding population of large carnivores, so theories abound that the creature is actually a freakishly large pike or beaver, or a misidentified deer swimming through the waters. Others favour geological explanations, surmising that the venting of volcanic gases creates disturbances on the surface from time to time.

Lyudmila Bolshakova, an expert at Moscow's Institute of Paleontology, dismissed ideas of a Brosno 'dragon', saying "It sounds like a country fairy tale, the kind of story told over the years in the countryside" but trips to the lake to search for the monster are increasingly popular among young Muscovites, so though Russia may lack a 'Nessie' a similar tourist trap industry might be just around the corner in these enterprising times.

My Verdict: False. The lake is clearly too small, and the story is typical of ancient dragon legends, this one survivng only because of Nessies popularity and its similarities to the scottish beastie. But the tale is an intriguing one nevertheless and I am temporarily extremely interested. What do you think?

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capoeiranger

Somehow, it's just come to my mind, should DC ever post in this thread, he'll talk like "yes, it's a dragon, it's been there for gazillions of years, but the beast is too intelligent to show us itself etc etc etc"...

Nice story anyway, can anyone come up with a pic?

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Matt121

I've never heard of this thanks! I love lake monster stuff intresting read.

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draconic chronicler
Somehow, it's just come to my mind, should DC ever post in this thread, he'll talk like "yes, it's a dragon, it's been there for gazillions of years, but the beast is too intelligent to show us itself etc etc etc"...

Nice story anyway, can anyone come up with a pic?

Exactly. And this was posted here before, less than a year ago when I did say this. Of course its a dragon. The lake is its refuge like all dragons these days that are not in the oceans but probably hunts far afield on dark nights.

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Primeval
Many people treat the existence of Brosnya sceptically and still say that the creature may be a mutant beaver or a giant pike of 100-150 years.

That really brings the lulz!

One word... Tourism!

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capoeiranger
Exactly. And this was posted here before, less than a year ago when I did say this. Of course its a dragon. The lake is its refuge like all dragons these days that are not in the oceans but probably hunts far afield on dark nights.

No wonder I feel familiar.

Many people treat the existence of Brosnya sceptically and still say that the creature may be a mutant beaver or a giant pike of 100-150 years.

Yo man, that's naaastttyyy y'all....

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Juan2k7nyc
I hope some day there could be a pic that could end this debate once and for all..............

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The Skeptic Eric Raven
Somehow, it's just come to my mind, should DC ever post in this thread, he'll talk like "yes, it's a dragon, it's been there for gazillions of years, but the beast is too intelligent to show us itself etc etc etc"...

Nice story anyway, can anyone come up with a pic?

Of course. Don't you know everything are dragons. Heck, your a dragon. I'm a dragon. Wouldn't you like to be a dragon too?

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Undeadskeptic

Well Im new so Im just taking a stab in the dark, but Im guessing DC believes strongly in dragons? Riiiggghhht...

There is a pic, but its not a photo, just a sketch, heres the link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b...osno_dragon.jpg

The only reason this really intrests a skeptic like me is because its unique of lake monsters as its not a plesiosaur or any other cliche, its actually ment to be a carnivorus, sorry for bad spelling, dinosaur! Its ridiculous!

Edited by Undeadskeptic

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The Skeptic Eric Raven
Well Im new so Im just taking a stab in the dark, but Im guessing DC believes strongly in dragons? Riiiggghhht...

There is a pic, but its not a photo, just a sketch, heres the link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b...osno_dragon.jpg

The only reason this really intrests a skeptic like me is because its unique of lake monsters as its not a plesiosaur or any other cliche, its actually ment to be a carnivorus, sorry for bad spelling, dinosaur! Its ridiculous!

Oh yes. Any sighting that has a reptile appearance is a dragon. :no:

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Undeadskeptic

Uh oh, that is actually quite distressing. Is he just joking?

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The Skeptic Eric Raven
Uh oh, that is actually quite distressing. Is he just joking?

No. He believes in dragons and is supposedly writing a book about them.

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DieChecker
No. He believes in dragons and is supposedly writing a book about them.

A book, I believe, that he said would be out for Christmas two years ago. C'mon DC where's the book?

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Undeadskeptic

Wow, sad.

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capoeiranger

It seems that DC need to interview two more dragons before he finished his book.

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draconic chronicler
Well Im new so Im just taking a stab in the dark, but Im guessing DC believes strongly in dragons? Riiiggghhht...

There is a pic, but its not a photo, just a sketch, heres the link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b...osno_dragon.jpg

The only reason this really intrests a skeptic like me is because its unique of lake monsters as its not a plesiosaur or any other cliche, its actually ment to be a carnivorus, sorry for bad spelling, dinosaur! Its ridiculous!

Welcome to UM, Undead.

What our ancestors called "Dragons" are the only plausible explanation for the many lake monster, sea serpent sightings witnessed by thousands of very reliable witnesses from the dawn of recorded history until modern times. But this is accepting the premise that dragons are not simply "a big dumb lizard", but as world wide beliefs attest are connected to mankinds belief in Gods and the supernatural. They can only be sentient creatures in order to escape scientific efforts to detect them, and still be continously seen by thousands of people all over the world every year.

The majority of humans still believe in a creator god. Something like 3 billion believe in the Biblical God. Few today realize His origins were a Sumerian Dragon God, that built the Garden of Eden, warned the original "Noah" about a flood, etc. And even in bible he is described spewing fire from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils, hoards gold and accepts virgin sacrifices as well as animals, carefully cooked and seasoned with salt.

Cultures all over the world all have the same stories of large intelligent reptiles teaching them things like agriculture, domestication, laws, etc. This doesn't mean the intelligence behind the universe is a dragon, of course, but perhaps some kind of perhistoric reptile was "enhanced" by this creator to insure the survival of our species. Or maybe our ancient ancestors who knew so much about astronomy and architecture, just made up the same story all over the world.

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Incorrigible1
It seems that DC need to interview two more dragons before he finished his book.

The darned things keep burning his notes and recorder with their breath.

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Undeadskeptic

Thank you DC for the welcome, but I have top correct you when you say that the majority of Earths population believe in a creator god. In a recent National geographic a very large survey discovered that 30% of people worldwide did not accept modern scientific theories of evolution and that the remaining 70% were either religious, but accepted evolution, or atheist and accepted evolution. Unless you merely meant a God that created Earth and allowed for evolution because then I am mistaken to correct you and should apologise.

Im thinking I should do a name change for this topic, everyones talking bout dragons, or DC rather than the relatively intriguing Brosnya!

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draconic chronicler
Thank you DC for the welcome, but I have top correct you when you say that the majority of Earths population believe in a creator god. In a recent National geographic a very large survey discovered that 30% of people worldwide did not accept modern scientific theories of evolution and that the remaining 70% were either religious, but accepted evolution, or atheist and accepted evolution. Unless you merely meant a God that created Earth and allowed for evolution because then I am mistaken to correct you and should apologise.

Im thinking I should do a name change for this topic, everyones talking bout dragons, or DC rather than the relatively intriguing Brosnya!

Ummm, I wasn't the one who changed the subject, you were. But to clarify what I said, yes, it is silly to dismiss the fossil record and proof of evolution as do "fundamentalists". In fact the world wide beliefs of dragons" as mankind's earliest "gods" are actually quite compatible with evolution and the fossil evidence. Consider that there was some intelligence behind the universe as even many top scientists believe. With the millions of planets, this "creator" may have only been here once, millions of years ago when the most intelligent, best designed life form to watch over this planet was some large, flying reptiles. Perhaps these creatures were somehow enhanced with greater intelligence and other abilities to "watch over" some future sentient life form that might develop here. In some of the ancient legends, including Judaism, one of these creatures looked after each human "tribe/culture".

But back to Brosno, if the legends are true, it suggests an intelligent creature that savagely attacked invaders but largely left the local population alone.

And intelligent creatures can easily avoid humans because we are so arrogant we believe every other creature is a mere "dumb" animal.

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Undeadskeptic

Ah, that is what you mean't, right, yes I am completely fine with the idea of their being some sort of spiritual other-wordly being that created this universe, however I do not personally believe it, although I guess there could be some giant robot or somthing, some advanced living being floating through space which is the real life equavilent of fictious earth "Gods".

Brosno: But then why do none of these intelligent creatures leave behind physical evidence?

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draconic chronicler
Ah, that is what you mean't, right, yes I am completely fine with the idea of their being some sort of spiritual other-wordly being that created this universe, however I do not personally believe it, although I guess there could be some giant robot or somthing, some advanced living being floating through space which is the real life equavilent of fictious earth "Gods".

Brosno: But then why do none of these intelligent creatures leave behind physical evidence?

Whales and dolphins are quite intelligent yet they have left no physical evidence. As far as the "trained" dragons, perhaps part of their "improvement" was "turning off" the aging process, so future generations would not have to be "retrained". But I agree, there probably have not been aliens here or we would have found physical evidence. Some people interpret the world wide "dragon god" legends to believe reptilian aliens coming here by spaceship were mistaken for our earliest Gods, that gradually evolved in todays impressions. But the creator is probably not a phyiscal creature becuae "it" existed before matter, so he would have to "modify" existing creatures to do its "work" on indiviual planets.

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Undeadskeptic
:P Whales and Dolphins leave no physical evidence? I would have to disagree there, seeing as I see the skeleton of one every time I go to my local museum, and the Japanese definatly aren't whaling thin air.

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dethstalker

Hmmmm... if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... then... it must be....

A. Duck

B. Don't be an idiot... its a Duck!

C. Duck stupid! Freeeeking Duck!

D. A Dragon God with a best selling novel and a motion picture: Passion of the Dragon, staring Spyro. Original score by Dragon Force.

Hmmmmmmmm... this is a tough one... I'll phone a friend...

Hello? DC? I have a tough question. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck what is it? ;)

Edited by dethstalker

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Archosaur

Well, it looks like the Russians (as well as the Chinese, Japanese, Indians, and English, among countless others) have a local dragon-protector legend. The story usually goes like: big dragon in sacred/haunted (depending on one's persuasion) lake. Occasionally people may disappear in the area or sacrifices may have been involved. Every major invading force was challenged by it (with varying degrees of impact). DC is actually accurate when he says that this, along with many lake monster sotries, do fit in with the template of the dragon legends.

So either:

everyone came up with the same fairy tale.

prehistoric reptiles somehow survived without evidence, in tiny isolated environments.

some supernatural (or at least highly intelligent) creature does lurk there, occaisonally.

or, something we haven't thought of yet...

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zandore
A book, I believe, that he said would be out for Christmas two years ago. C'mon DC where's the book?

Quite right......and after all of this time I am beginning to think the book is all in his head.

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