Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #26 Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) Peace will prevail if Israel ends occupation: Hamas PM May 23, 2006 | 413 words , 1 images JERUSALEM (AFP) — The prime minister of the Hamas-led Palestinian government, Ismail Haniya, said in an interview peace would prevail if Israel withdrew from all the land it captured in 1967. Haniya told Israel's liberal Haaretz daily that the Islamist movement which does not recognise the Jewish state's right to exist would institute a long-term ceasefire, or hudna, if Israel pulled out of the whole of the West Bank and east Jerusalem, captured in the 1967 Middle East war. "If Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, peace will prevail and we will implement a hudna for many years," Haniya said during an interview in Gaza. "Our government is prepared to maintain a long-term ceasefire with Israel." http://www.mywire.com/pubs/AFP/2006/05/23/...81?&pbl=222 Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #27 Share Posted December 23, 2007 http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/rte.html What 'Israel's right to exist' means to Palestinians Recognition would imply acceptance that they deserve to be treated as subhumans. JEDDAH, SAUDI ARABIA – Since the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel and much of the West have asserted that the principal obstacle to any progress toward Israeli-Palestinian peace is the refusal of Hamas to "recognize Israel," or to "recognize Israel's existence," or to "recognize Israel's right to exist." These three verbal formulations have been used by Israel, the United States, and the European Union as a rationale for collective punishment of the Palestinian people. The phrases are also used by the media, politicians, and even diplomats interchangeably, as though they mean the same thing. They do not. "Recognizing Israel" or any other state is a formal legal and diplomatic act by one state with respect to another state. It is inappropriate – indeed, nonsensical – to talk about a political party or movement extending diplomatic recognition to a state. To talk of Hamas "recognizing Israel" is simply to use sloppy, confusing, and deceptive shorthand for the real demand being made of the Palestinians. "Recognizing Israel's existence" appears on first impression to involve a relatively straightforward acknowledgment of a fact of life. Yet there are serious practical problems with this language. What Israel, within what borders, is involved? Is it the 55 percent of historical Palestine recommended for a Jewish state by the UN General Assembly in 1947? The 78 percent of historical Palestine occupied by the Zionist movement in 1948 and now viewed by most of the world as "Israel" or "Israel proper"? The 100 percent of historical Palestine occupied by Israel since June 1967 and shown as "Israel" (without any "Green Line") on maps in Israeli schoolbooks? Israel has never defined its own borders, since doing so would necessarily place limits on them. Still, if this were all that was being demanded of Hamas, it might be possible for the ruling political party to acknowledge, as a fact of life, that a state of Israel exists today within some specified borders. Indeed, Hamas leadership has effectively done so in recent weeks. "Recognizing Israel's right to exist," the actual demand being made of Hamas and Palestinians, is in an entirely different league. This formulation does not address diplomatic formalities or a simple acceptance of present realities. It calls for a moral judgment. There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist." From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to concede that the Holocaust was morally justified. For Palestinians to acknowledge the occurrence of the Nakba – the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homeland between 1947 and 1949 – is one thing. For them to publicly concede that it was "right" for the Nakba to have happened would be something else entirely. For the Jewish and Palestinian peoples, the Holocaust and the Nakba, respectively, represent catastrophes and injustices on an unimaginable scale that can neither be forgotten nor forgiven. To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have been treated as subhumans unworthy of basic human rights publicly proclaim that they are subhumans. It would imply Palestinians' acceptance that they deserve what has been done and continues to be done to them. Even 19th-century US governments did not require the surviving native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by European colonists as a condition precedent to even discussing what sort of land reservation they might receive. Nor did native Americans have to live under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed whatever pride they had left and conceded the point. Some believe that Yasser Arafat did concede the point in order to buy his ticket out of the wilderness of demonization and earn the right to be lectured directly by the Americans. But in fact, in his famous 1988 statement in Stockholm, he accepted "Israel's right to exist in peace and security." This language, significantly, addresses the conditions of existence of a state which, as a matter of fact, exists. It does not address the existential question of the "rightness" of the dispossession and dispersal of the Palestinian people from their homeland to make way for another people coming from abroad. The original conception of the phrase "Israel's right to exist" and of its use as an excuse for not talking with any Palestinian leaders who still stood up for the rights of their people are attributed to former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. It is highly likely that those countries that still employ this phrase do so in full awareness of what it entails, morally and psychologically, for the Palestinian people. However, many people of goodwill and decent values may well be taken in by the surface simplicity of the words, "Israel's right to exist," and believe that they constitute a reasonable demand. And if the "right to exist" is reasonable, then refusing to accept it must represent perversity, rather than Palestinians' deeply felt need to cling to their self-respect and dignity as full-fledged human beings. That this need is deeply felt is evidenced by polls showing that the percentage of the Palestinian population that approves of Hamas's refusal to bow to this demand substantially exceeds the percentage that voted for Hamas in January 2006. Those who recognize the critical importance of Israeli-Palestinian peace and truly seek a decent future for both peoples must recognize that the demand that Hamas recognize "Israel's right to exist" is unreasonable, immoral, and impossible to meet. Then, they must insist that this roadblock to peace be removed, the economic siege of the Palestinian territories be lifted, and the pursuit of peace with some measure of justice be resumed with the urgency it deserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #28 Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) I guess you share the binladen ideaology?...the palestinians plight is what really fuels you?...radical islamics are your best friends?... Oh yeah, you got it. You are so smart, you have figured me out. pffffffft Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #29 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Oh yeah, you got it. You are so smart, you have figured me out. pffffffft ya bugs bunnys on.. but your funnier defending hamas...these are machine gun wielding thugs! and somehow you've turned them into poor little kittens.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #30 Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) ya bugs bunnys on.. but your funnier defending hamas...these are machine gun wielding thugs! and somehow you've turned them into poor little kittens.. Dude, if you want to be ignorant of the reality of the situation and history, that is up to you............... I don't care, be as ignorant as you want. Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #31 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I have reported you Unlimited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #32 Share Posted December 23, 2007 so hamas recognizes israels right to exist?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #33 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I have reported you Unlimited. you reported me for what?.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #34 Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) like olmert said today.."we are at war"...it's a war bob people die...why dont you check your hamas handbook on how to run the jews into the sea... I guess you share the binladen ideaology?...the palestinians plight is what really fuels you?...radical islamics are your best friends?... For these Childish gems If you are not going to debate, but rather just toss around silly and childish accusations, why even respond? Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ships-cat Posted December 23, 2007 #35 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Dude, if you want to be ignorant of the reality of the situation and history, that is up to you............... I don't care, be as ignorant as you want. W Bob, it sometimes seems as though the only solution you would find acceptable is if Israel dissolved itself, and all it's citizens commited suicide. (which is what the Right of Return would amount to anyway. ) In your post #17, you cited the AimIslam website to support your position. Did you read the banner of this website ? It is the AhluBayt Islamic Mission. Their motto.. "awakening the Ummah" e.g. the world community of Muslims, or muslim interests. Did you REALLY expect them to take anything other than an anti-Israeli stance ? What's next ? Quotes from the HAMAS website ? Or how about the Klu Klux Klan ? Meow Purr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #36 Share Posted December 23, 2007 because i dont agree with radical islamics; and you do so we run into this impasse...fine report me to your hamas friends also.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #37 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Bob, it sometimes seems as though the only solution you would find acceptable is if Israel dissolved itself, and all it's citizens commited suicide. (which is what the Right of Return would amount to anyway. ) In your post #17, you cited the AimIslam website to support your position. Did you read the banner of this website ? It is the AhluBayt Islamic Mission. Their motto.. "awakening the Ummah" e.g. the world community of Muslims, or muslim interests. Did you REALLY expect them to take anything other than an anti-Israeli stance ? What's next ? Quotes from the HAMAS website ? Or how about the Klu Klux Klan ? Meow Purr. Oh Please, now you are nitpicking ships. I dont know anything about that site. Also, did you even look at the OTHER 10 posts I made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #38 Share Posted December 23, 2007 because i dont agree with radical islamics; and you do so we run into this impasse...fine report me to your hamas friends also.. So now the Mods are Hamas terrorists as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #39 Share Posted December 23, 2007 So now the Mods are Hamas terrorists as well? bob because your sided with a terrorist org, it's best if we conclude this discussion...like the cat said you wont be happy til all the jews are dead,,,check the hamas charter. thats what it's all about friend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #40 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Wait Wait Wait How do you connect "Waking the Muslim World" with the KKK? Come on now ships....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #41 Share Posted December 23, 2007 bob because your sided with a terrorist org, it's best if we conclude this discussion...like the cat said you wont be happy til all the jews are dead,,,check the hamas charter. thats what it's all about friend... So now I want all the Jews dead eh? It just doesn't stop with you does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #42 Share Posted December 23, 2007 So now I want all the Jews dead eh? It just doesn't stop with you does it? no hamas supports the destruction of israel...dont you know what your defending?...or is it just anti-israel-anti-US so your onboard?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #43 Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) no hamas supports the destruction of israel...dont you know what your defending?...or is it just anti-israel-anti-US so your onboard?.... and Israel is actively engaged in the destruction of the Palestinian people............ Also, please provide some evidence to back up your claim. Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #44 Share Posted December 23, 2007 and Israel supports the destruction of the Palestinian people............ Also, please provide some evidence to back up your claim. right thats why they are at war...you just dont like the israelis war tactics...because they are winning.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #45 Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) I give up, its impossible to try to have a civil debate with you Unlimited. You refuse to provide any evidence...... I give up, I just give up. You just keep repeating the same ol soundbites. Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #46 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I give up, its impossible to try to have a civil debate with you Unlimited. You refuse to provide any evidence...... I give up, I just give up. evidence of what?...bob have some eggnog...merry christmas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cradle of Fish Posted December 23, 2007 #47 Share Posted December 23, 2007 bob because your sided with a terrorist org, it's best if we conclude this discussion...like the cat said you wont be happy til all the jews are dead,,,check the hamas charter. thats what it's all about friend... You need to stop trying to put words in bobs mouth. He's right here, Israel isn't an innocent victim, the Israeli people are, same with the palestinian people. A criticism of the policies of a nations leaders is not a criticism of the people who live there. Criticising the elements in the Israeli government who do not want peace with palestine doesn't mean you want "all the jews dead". It would be for everyone if Israel wasn't in the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlimited Posted December 23, 2007 #48 Share Posted December 23, 2007 You need to stop trying to put words in bobs mouth. He's right here, Israel isn't an innocent victim, who said their an innocent victim?...they are in a war with radical islamics...putting words in his mouth?..look at his body of work..he's clearly sided with the jihadis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtemperate Posted December 23, 2007 #49 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Some people need to stop throwing accusations around, and actually discuss the topic at hand. If you dont feel like discussion and all you want to do is insult/antagonise another poster, then feel free to take a short holiday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob26003 Posted December 23, 2007 #50 Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) Another point to remember: Groups like Hamas (founded in 1987) arose BECAUSE of the brutal occupation and systematic destruction of the Palestinian people. Hezbollah for instance arose due to the horrible slaughter of Lebanese civilians that took place in Israel's 1982 offensive against Lebanon I believe. These groups arose for one purpose: Self Defense. After 30 years of brutal occupation and denial of even the most basic Human Rights, many have taken the stance that fighting back is the only option. Is this really all that suprising? It is truly a shame though, because the emergence of these groups has given Israel an excuse to continue the oppression. Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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