'Ceasefire not an option'

[Lt_Ripley]

honestly - does anyone ever think this will be settled ?

you have jews who think based on the writings of man speaking for God that the land is theirs.

you have muslims who's ancestors lived there long before the hebrews even had a bible. and before they(hebrews) removed the people that lived on the land to take it. (Phoenicians ? I can't remember the group but suffice to say hebrews were not there 'first')

the land is considered holy by both ( not including christians who side with Israel because of the want for armageddon and jesus' return ( who was supposed to return as he stated during the life time of the disciples he was physically speaking too - which is why a second coming belief was dropped until centuries later)

so taking this into consideration. and these 'peaceful , loving ' religions --- does anyone with any logic think it will ever be satisfactory for anyone.

maybe we should move everyone out of Israel and bomb it into a parking lot so no one can have it. Like kids who can't share - no one gets it.

[Cradle of Fish]

who said their an innocent victim?...they are in a war with radical islamics...putting words in his mouth?..look at his body of work..he's clearly sided with the jihadis...

Sorry, no. Being opposed to a nation killing civilians from another nation doesn't mean he's sided with the Jihad. I'm sure bob despises the radical islamic jihad as much as anyone else, but just because the islamic jihad is bad, doesn't automatically mean israel is good. If Israel did all good, the radical muslims would have a much much harder time to recruit suicide bombers and kidnappers.

[ships-cat]

Another point to remember:

Groups like Hamas (founded in 1987) arose BECAUSE of the brutal occupation and systematic destruction of the Palestinian people.

Hezbollah for instance arose due to the horrible slaughter of Lebanese civilians that took place in Israel's 1982 offensive against Lebanon I believe.

These groups arose for one purpose: Self Defense.

After 30 years of brutal occupation and denial of even the most basic Human Rights, many have taken the stance that fighting back is the only option.

Is this really all that suprising?

It is truly a shame though, because the emergence of these groups has given Israel an excuse to continue the oppression.

OK Bob, I have a suspicioun that you have not actually researched the purpose of these groups. They are NOT created for self defence, but for the destruction of Israel and for the Islamification of the Middle East under Sharia law.

To illustrate, here are some articles from the Hamas constitution. (the first 10 articles are primarily a call to Allah, and deal with embedding the HAMAS phillosphy within an Islamic context and authority. My source for this section is Yale University ).

Article 11: The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that......... This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

So here we see that Palestine is an Islamic state by right of conquest (by the Islamic armies circa 700 AD). No mention of modern Isreal.

Article 12: Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land. Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Moslem, male or female.

So Israel is an enemy because it has caused itself to exist on 'Moslem land'. Again, no mention of the treatment of arab palestinians in modern times. We see here that HAMAS is against Isreal simply because Israel exists, regardless of it's behavior.

Article 13: Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. ...... There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Again, we see the absolutist position here. No discussion, no compromise.

To summarise: HAMAS, at a constitutional level, has only limited interest in the suffering of the arab palestinians. (although the arab palestinians ARE mentioned in some of the later Articles, but only in context of their utility in promulgating the Islamic State rather than any concern with the arab palestinian's nationalistic aspirations) HAMAS's primary goal is to "re-conquer" the region of palestine (indeed, the entire middle east) to form an Islamic state explicitly operating under Sharia law. The destruction of Israel is a necessary pre-condition of this. Not because of Israels behavior as a nation, but because palestine is an 'Islamic' state by right of conquest, and a non-Islamic nation is not permitted to exist there.

So, that is HAMAS, but how about Hezbollah ? Perhaps THEY have a genuine desire to help the needs and aspirations of the palestinian arabs ?

Well, it's slightly harder to track down, as the organisation is somewhat more diffuse. The nearest thing to a constitution is the 1985 "Hizbollah Program". This is primarily involved in creating an Islamic Sharia state in Lebannon. It does not mention the arab palestinian people AT ALL. However, when it comes to Israel, it makes the following statement.

We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated. We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity. [4]

My source here is Wikipedia .

So there we have it. Neither HAMAS or Hezbollah have any interest in the plight of the palestinian arabs, other than as pawns in their desire to create an Islamic State across the middle east. Both groups require the destruction of Israel: not because of Israels behavior, but simply because of it's existence as a non-Islamic entity.

And THAT is why "Ceasefire is not an option" (see... I got back onto the topic EVENTUALLY )

It appears that the ONLY regional power that is taking any serious PRACTICAL steps to help the arab palestinians acheive some degree of autonomy is.... Israel.

Who'da thunk it ?

Meow Purr.

[Unlimited]

thanks kitty good post..that was my whole argument with him..he doesnt know what hamas and hezbollah stand for..Terror..

[Bob26003]

Like I said ships: I do not agree with Hezbollah or Hamas. I agree that they are an obsticle to peace.

However, that being said, it is clear that Peace has never been an Israeli goal: Israeli aggression, occupation and expansion is by far the biggest obstacle to Peace

And we cannot ignore the conditions that allowed this extremism to rise: A thirty year brutal occupation.

The same thing is happening in Iraq.

When you brutally occupy and suppress a population, extremism is going to rise.......................

And after thirty years of suffering horrible indignities at the hands of the Israelis, these groups are gaining sympathy among the Palestinians.

But like I said

When you brutally occupy and suppress a Population and deny them even the most basic Human rights and dignities: What do you expect?

A rise in extremism is an entirely predictable outcome.

And as long as Israel maintains its brutal assault on the Palestinian people, extremism will rise.

The Israelis know this: But you see ships, that provides them with the justification to continue the offensive.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003

[ships-cat]

There is some truth in that Bob. However, you must agree that HAMAS and Hezbollah did NOT arise as a result of the "occupation", but out of a desire to create a new Islamic state ? They have no interest in the plight of the palestinian arabs. per se, and merely see them as useful pawns to attack Israel.

I would suggest that it is THIS that has caused the prolonged struggle with Israel, rather than Israeli attitudes per se. Groups like HAMAS and Hezbollah will not PERMIT the palestinian arabs any form of self-determination, nor allow them to form a repproachment with Israel, because that would hinder the stragegic goal of the Jihad.

Wherever it looks like peace may be breaking out (as a local initiative, perhaps), then HAMAS will launch a few rockets from that village towards Israel, and then run away to observe the Israeli reprisals. HAMAS - and it's predecessor, the PLO - have brutaly mistreated the arab palestinians, and perpetually twisted and manipulated them to the Jihadist cause.

Meow Purr.

[Bob26003]

Well ships, Hamas did offer a truce and Peace talks.

But I agree, extremists definately capitalize on the distress and suffering and powerlessness of the People.

But as I said: When you brutally occupy a People for thirty years, and deny them basic Human Rights and dignity, it creates the environment that allows extremism to flourish.

And as I said: The Israelis know this, and the use it as justification to collectively punish the entire population

Its like how poverty creates desperations which leads to crime.

Which also supports my contention that the Israelis do not want Peace. They want zion.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003

[Bob26003]

And I completely disagreee ships. Hamas and sympathy for Hamas arose as a direct result of the Occupation and brutality inflicted upon the Palestinian people.

Hezbollah and sympathy for Hezbollah arose as a result of the massive civilian dead the Israelis left behind in their 1982 attack on Lebanon.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Bob26003

[Lt_Ripley]

some interesting video on how Israeli soldiers treat Palestinians

throwing stones at , beating kids at the boarder

taking over land that is clearly Palestinian by a map approved of by Israel !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOoQwVPXa0

more stealing land by Israelis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtsqohfPDEQ

AP Erases Video of Israeli Soldier Shooting Palestinian Boy

( and not reported in one American paper)

Video Israel Doesn't Want You to See

there are multitudes of these videos - so why shouldn't they be mad ?

Edited December 23, 2007 by Lt_Ripley

[Bob26003]

some interesting video on how Israeli soldiers treat Palestinians

throwing stones at , beating kids at the boarder

taking over land that is clearly Palestinian by a map approved of by Israel !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOoQwVPXa0

more stealing land by Israelis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtsqohfPDEQ

AP Erases Video of Israeli Soldier Shooting Palestinian Boy

( and not reported in one American paper)

Video Israel Doesn't Want You to See

there are multitudes of these videos - so why shouldn't they be mad ?

A perfect example Ripley.............

How many of these kids will grow up to be extremists as a result of Israeli brutality?

This is what I am talking about ships

[ships-cat]

And I completely disagreee ships. Hamas and sympathy for Hamas arose as a direct result of the Occupation and brutality inflicted upon the Palestinian people.

Hezbollah and sympathy for Hezbollah arose as a result of the massive civilian dead the Israelis left behind in their 1982 attack on Lebanon.

Truly Bob ? Then I repeat my earlier question. Why do neither organisation make other than fleeting refference to the palestinian arabs in their charters ? Why are their charters primarily about creating an Islamic state in the region, based on the idea that the Caliphate conquered Iraq and Syria back in the eighth century BC ? (e.g. right of conquest). Why do they - at no stage - make any refference to Israeli atrociities, but merely to the fact that Israel exists as a non-Muslim entity ? (actually, the Hezbollah DOES make refference to Israeli atrocities - namely WW1, WW2, and the Rotary Club... I kid you not.. read it)

You didn't read the article, did you ?

Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Meow Purr.

[Bob26003]

Truly Bob ? Then I repeat my earlier question. Why do neither organisation make other than fleeting refference to the palestinian arabs in their charters ? Why are their charters primarily about creating an Islamic state in the region, based on the idea that the Caliphate conquered Iraq and Syria back in the eighth century BC ? (e.g. right of conquest). Why do they - at no stage - make any refference to Israeli atrociities, but merely to the fact that Israel exists as a non-Muslim entity ? (actually, the Hezbollah DOES make refference to Israeli atrocities - namely WW1, WW2, and the Rotary Club... I kid you not.. read it)

You didn't read the article, did you ?

Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Meow Purr.

No, you are right, these groups are fanatical ships.......... Can't disagree with that.

But, think of it this way:

Say you have Child and you beat him for years and years and torture him and just generally abuse him:

Well, there is a good chance that he will grow up crazy and hating your guts and wanting to put an end to you.

That is all I am saying, I have already conceded that these groups are a major obstacle to peace.

However, I firmly believe that when you brutally oppress a population, you will give rise and sympathy to extremism. And I stand by that.

I think it is a Historical constant. I mean look at Iraq.

[Bob26003]

Here is some interesting insight into Hezbollah ships

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Ending Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon was the primary focus of Hezbollah's early activities.[14] Israel had become militarily involved in Lebanon in combat with the Palestine Liberation Organization, which had moved into Southern Lebanon after being ousted from Jordan. The PLO had been attacking Israel from Southern Lebanon in the lead-up to the 1982 Lebanon War, and Israel had invaded and occupied Southern Lebanon and besieged Beirut.

Then Hezbollah tried to expel Israel from Lebanon. At the beginning, it had used suicide attacks against the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and also against Jewish and Israeli targets outside of Lebanon.[22] Hezbollah is reputed to have been among the first Islamic resistance groups to use tactical suicide bombing, assassination and capturing against foreign soldiers in the Middle East.[8][14] But gradually, Hezbollah turned into a paramilitary organization and used missiles, Katyusha and other type of rocket launchers and detonations of explosive charges[4][23][24] instead of capturings,[25][26][27] murders,[26] hijackings,[28] and bombings.[28][29][30] Hezbollah has been subject to assassination and abduction by Israel as well.[28] Hezbollah's violent acts are characterized by some countries as terrorist attacks, while others regard them as a resistance movement engaged in defensive Jihad."[31][32] Human rights organizations Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have accused Hezbollah of committing war crimes against Israeli civilians.[33]

Supporters of Hezbollah justify Hezbollah's attacks against Israel on several grounds. Firstly, Hezbollah justifies its operations against Israel as reciprocal to Israeli operations against Lebanese civilians and as retaliation for Israel's occupation of Lebanese territory.[34][35][36] Many of these attacks took place while Israel occupied the southern part of Lebanon and held it as a security zone in spite of United Nations Security Council Resolution 425. Although Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, and their complete withdrawal was verified by the United Nations, Lebanon now considers the Shebaa farms—a 26 km² (10-mi²) piece of land captured by Israel from Syria in the 1967 war and considered by the UN to be disputed territory between Syria and Israel—to be Lebanese territory. Additionally, Hezbollah has identified three Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jails who it wants released.[37] Finally, Hezbollah and others among the Muslim world consider Israel to be an illegitimate state. For these reasons, many in the Arab world consider acts performed by Hezbollah against Israel to be justified as acts of defensive Jihad.[28][38] Although some Arab states (Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia) have condemned Hezbollah's actions, saying that "the Arabs and Muslims can't afford to allow an irresponsible and adventurous organization like Hezbollah to drag the region to war" and calling it "dangerous adventurism,"[39] Hezbollah is regarded as a legitimate resistance movement throughout much of Lebanese society and the Arab and Muslim world, with an emphasis on "calls for the destruction of Israel."[40] Three-quarters of Lebanese Christians identified Hezbollah as a legitimate group in challenging Israeli aggression.[41][42]

[ships-cat]

OK Bob - I'll run with that. We disagree about the motivations of Hezbollah, but this seems like a difference of emphasis rather than core values. HAMAS is another story... albeit the OPA of this thread.

We need a space where militants and fanatics on both sides step back. This means that the Israeli government has to exert more control over the behavior of both the settlers, and of the IDF. In turn, HAMAS has got to stop firing rockets, and indocrinating the arab palestinians into a permanant state of hatred and Jihad.

Lets see who makes the first steps....

Meow Purr.