27 Years of Zen destroyed my life

[+joc]

Who are you, then?

I think I am a man...over 6 foot...around 200 lbs. I think I am musically inclined. I think I am artistically inclined.

I think I am somewhat intelligent...........

.......but who am I really? I think I am me. But am I? Really? Am I really me? Are any of my thoughts 'original' to me? Aren't all of my thoughts just rethinking already existing thoughts? Is my mind me? Is my body me?

....so for instance...Suppose that I fall off my lawnmower and loose both of my arms and legs. Now who am I? I thought I was a man, musically and artistically inclined....am I still...without the appendages which allow me my expression? Then, through loss of blood, I slip into a coma...who am I now? A brain dead piece of meat? When do I cease to be a 'who' and become a 'what'? Now, my brain dead state looses electric impulse. Who or what am I now? A dead man?

I am what I have always been. I am what I will always be. Always changing....completely unchangeable.

I am an illusion...

[metacast]

I like what Joc says about death.

Think about this: My uncle always use to tell me jokingly that he ownded the same axe that President Lincoln had once used when he was growing up on the farm -- except the handle of the axe has been replaced 14 times, and the head of the axe has been replaced 8 times.

How many here would say that my uncle's axe was actually the same axe as the one used by President Lincoln? Probably everyone here would agree that it's not the same axe.

But let's say that my uncle wasn't joking. Let's say his axe could follow a kind of unbroken chain back to Lincoln's original axe. In a sense it would be the same axe. Some aspect of "axe" always followed that particular 'real" axe through it's travels across the past century and a half.

But you might object: "No physical aspect of the original axe is now present! It's not the same axe!"

But now look at your own physical body. Every cell in your body only lasts a certain amount of time. Every cell in your body is eventually replaced with an exact copy of the one that just died -- 'and the copy is not even exact, because your cells change as you grow older. So, like Lincoln's axe, there is none of the same "stuff" in your body that was there just a few years ago. But you wouldn't say this is not the real "you" any more, would you?

In fact, the body you came into the world with as a baby is long "dead" in a sense, right?

So, if you're going to say my uncle's axe was not really Lincoln's axe, then you would have to say that the person you are today is not the person you were a few years ago. Who are you, then?

here are some thoughts.. just for fun. ** i edited it so its not as butchered.

my good friend and I argue this all the time.

The thing we call the axe exists outside of us, but within us we have constructed an idea of that thing. As an idea the axe can remain the same even-though the material that composes the axe has changes. Or the idea of the axe can be altered by the change-- the axe as an idea is within you and is bound to your perspective. So if you think Old Abe's axe HAS to be composed of the same original material than as soon as the first replacement part 'Abes axe' become 'Abe's refurbished axe'. If identity of the axe is understood such as that it is "Abe's axe" only as long as Abe possesses it-- the the axe that Uncle holds cannot be 'Abe's Axe' because it is 'Uncle's Axe'. yadi-di-dada

now if there is an idea- that this is a unique axe-- because it is called an axe and there is none just like it. then no matter what is done to it-- the axe is still unique and it is still an axe-- and uncle is in the right place to say he now owns the same axe that Abe owned. that axe always persisting as an axe and always being unique to all other axes.

moving further with what ironghost said. The human changes. cells die and are reborn. you change in a series of ideas dying and new ideas coming into being. life is in the loving awareness through it.

identity' works like 'time' in which it becomes a marker for understanding where we are in the movement of things. identity becomes an argument of perspective.

I am an illusion...

good post. you are a living spirit that navigates the illusion relative to you. spirit belonging to the soul of the like grand spirit that navigates the grand progressive illusion.. if claimed. what do you think? what would be the case if not claimed?

Edited December 31, 2007 by ADbox

[+joc]

you are a living spirit that navigates the illusion relative to you.

This is the grandest illusion of all...living spirits. Define living. Define spirits.

We are exactly what we think we are. We can never be anything else. Of course, we can always be something else.

[metacast]

This is the grandest illusion of all...living spirits. Define living. Define spirits.

We are exactly what we think we are. We can never be anything else. Of course, we can always be something else.

spirit like movement.

life like experience.

momentary spirits can be an illusion of momentary self but the great spirit is the foundation for everything-it is alive as it is the realtime experience- it moved through you as you wrote those words and it will move through you as you read these. spirit that come from you are of your culture though-- but spirit is given to you as a gift of life from the great spirit.

here is something i wrote awhile back when documenting semantics i liked.

Spirit

Spirit is a expression of being. "I want to talk to her, but my spirits do not empower my will." "We are in the spirit of giving". We tolerate evil spirits the come from inside the heart of our being. Evil being offensive to greater self. Greater self being the part of you that does not offend . Spirit can be looked at as the nature of one's will power-- "I want to eat your face." may mean "I am in the spirit of face eating!" -- I am in the spirit of progression and growth. I am in the spirit of understanding. The spirit of truth taught me these things--because I am a hunter of truth--a gatherer of like things. movement in the name of an idea.

when does is imagination of self and delusion of self differ?

Edited December 31, 2007 by ADbox

[ravergirl]

how are you reaching Zen or enlightenment if you are talking yourself in circles all the time? isn't that just frustrating? or is that the point....to be so confused you don't care any more so you just let go of it and reach inner peace....I'd rather have the fight..im not being a smarty...i want to know.

[Leonardo]

But the real nature of the universe is a paradox -- for example, the universe is both infinitely complex, can contain infinite space and variation -- yet it can do so within a finite space.

Take the number 1, for example. You could divide it in half, and get 1/2, then divide that in half and get 1/4, then divide that in half and get 1/8 ..... and you could keep doing that forever. You would create an infinite set of numbers -- there would be no end to them -- yet if you added up all of those millions and billions and trillions of numbers, they could all still be "contained" by the Number 1. They would all "fit inside" 1.

So there we have an example of inifinty contained within a finite space. It seems like a paradox, but its not, really. In reality, there are no paradoxes. That's just an illusion. When we come to see a paradox for what it is, it stops being a paradox.

Or let me ask you this: Let's say that the Universe was the size of a dime. Would there be room enough inside that dime for infinite variation? The answer is yes. Go look up something called "Mandelbrot Sets." This proves that infinite variety can exist within finite space -- space that is bounded.

The universe, however defies imagining 'from the outside' because there is no outside to imagine it from, hence there is no boundary and no limit. Any analogy we use to describe the universe in terms of 'infinity bound within a finite space' is false.

[+joc]

how are you reaching Zen or enlightenment if you are talking yourself in circles all the time? isn't that just frustrating? or is that the point....to be so confused you don't care any more so you just let go of it and reach inner peace....I'd rather have the fight..im not being a smarty...i want to know.

It is frustrating. It isn't all that confusing however. Although it is confusion that makes it seem frustrating. Then again frustration confuses everything. In order to reach Zen, one first would have to know where Zen is....then one would have to follow the path that leads there. Since all paths lead nowhere, it is frustrating and confusing to follow them. So, it is safe to assume that one therefore cannot reach Zen. However; Zen is everywhere and the paths that lead out from Zen lead everywhere, making it therefore possible for Zen to find us. But then if it did...we wouldn't know where we are, since we don't know where Zen is. Therefore we are lost. But since we haven't gone down any paths, we know where we are...so, we are found. We are lost and found at the same time. This is not where Zen is.

[ravergirl]

It is frustrating. It isn't all that confusing however. Although it is confusion that makes it seem frustrating. Then again frustration confuses everything. In order to reach Zen, one first would have to know where Zen is....then one would have to follow the path that leads there. Since all paths lead nowhere, it is frustrating and confusing to follow them. So, it is safe to assume that one therefore cannot reach Zen. However; Zen is everywhere and the paths that lead out from Zen lead everywhere, making it therefore possible for Zen to find us. But then if it did...we wouldn't know where we are, since we don't know where Zen is. Therefore we are lost. But since we haven't gone down any paths, we know where we are...so, we are found. We are lost and found at the same time. This is not where Zen is.

wow....so im gonna think on that and see if that makes sense.....to me.

[metacast]

The universe, however defies imagining 'from the outside' because there is no outside to imagine it from, hence there is no boundary and no limit. Any analogy we use to describe the universe in terms of 'infinity bound within a finite space' is false.

ultimately i agree with you and see infinite association as the the truth i attempt to set in my mind -- but there seems to be another cousin form of thought that is infinite disassociation- and in that they are disassociated.

what i think IronGhost is trying to paint is infinity can exist within any illusion of point within infinity. Say "infinity in the tip of a pin" which is also within infinity. Which brings me to say that infinity that exists on the tip of the pin contains that same exact pin within it-- and on top of that pin lies the same infinity. and so on and so on for infinity

but even saying it like(so on add so forth forever and ever) that implies that one infinity is dissociated from the other and that is not the case.

there is one infinity and it is infinitively infinite.

it is so 'is' that i cant conceive it myself fully

Edited January 1, 2008 by ADbox

[+joc]

what i think IronGhost is trying to paint is infinity can exist within any illusion of point within infinity.

I don't know what Ironghost is trying to paint...

....it is important to consider that when we are talking about infinity, we are talking about something that doesn't exist. Infinity does not exist. Everything is finite. Nothing goes on forever. Infinity is finite. The only thing that is finite is infinity. If nothing goes on forever, then everything goes on forever. If nothing and everything go on forever...they can only exist at a single finite point. Within that finite point lies the power to explain a concept of infinity...but outside that finite point there is nothing.

[metacast]

I don't know what Ironghost is trying to paint...

....it is important to consider that when we are talking about infinity, we are talking about something that doesn't exist. Infinity does not exist. Everything is finite. Nothing goes on forever. Infinity is finite. The only thing that is finite is infinity. If nothing goes on forever, then everything goes on forever. If nothing and everything go on forever...they can only exist at a single finite point. Within that finite point lies the power to explain a concept of infinity...but outside that finite point there is nothing.

that makes some sense in reading it.

no thing is infinite. nothing is infinite.

so this implies that all things from the infinite perspective are no things at all because things are finite and therby will become nothing with is infinite.

so everything is infinite by itself being finite.

so what is the life that perpetuates through all things? It will not end. Is it the life of the nothing that can never be coined- The eternal progression through finite things? If we humans have common being within that life and that life being within us - then how can our life die-- seeing that it comes from the eternal? Are we saved or do we die with our moments. If we move like god then we we are like his children- versions of his likeness riding the finite forever --saved. This is the beginning of Christian faith

Edited January 1, 2008 by ADbox

[+joc]

so what is the life that perpetuates through all things?

It is nothing.

What is the difference between a dead man and a living man? The only real tangible difference is that the spark of electricity that keeps the living man alive is no longer available to the dead man. What then is that spark of electricity?

Is that spark really any different from the spark of electricity that creates light on your desk? When you turn off the light...did the lamp die? The spark that keeps it lit is no longer available to the lamp. So it remains dark. You have the power to turn the spark on again with the lamp. You do not have the power to reignite the spark that keeps you alive. So...what then is the spark? It is what keeps the living alive. But what is the spark? It is electricity. What is electricity? It is energy. What is energy? It is what keeps the rock, a rock. It is what makes the wind blow. It is the wind blowing. But what is energy? Can you see it? Can you smell it? Can you grasp it? Can you point to it and say, 'there it is'? It is. Or it isn't. If it isn't then it is nothing. If it is, then it is everything. Since everything is nothing...then energy is nothing.

It is nothing.

Nothing.

[Mbyte]

It is nothing.

What is the difference between a dead man and a living man? The only real tangible difference is that the spark of electricity that keeps the living man alive is no longer available to the dead man. What then is that spark of electricity?

Is that spark really any different from the spark of electricity that creates light on your desk? When you turn off the light...did the lamp die? The spark that keeps it lit is no longer available to the lamp. So it remains dark. You have the power to turn the spark on again with the lamp. You do not have the power to reignite the spark that keeps you alive. So...what then is the spark? It is what keeps the living alive. But what is the spark? It is electricity. What is electricity? It is energy. What is energy? It is what keeps the rock, a rock. It is what makes the wind blow. It is the wind blowing. But what is energy? Can you see it? Can you smell it? Can you grasp it? Can you point to it and say, 'there it is'? It is. Or it isn't. If it isn't then it is nothing. If it is, then it is everything. Since everything is nothing...then energy is nothing.

It is nothing.

Nothing.

If it's nothing then why is there energy? you go around in circles becasue you can't comprehend reality. We don't have sufficient knowledge to understand. What are morals in zen terms?

If your mother died you would care but you wouldn't care becasue it's an illusion. Thats hard to do when you understand it. How could you care if you understand it's an illusion. Why would you waist you time caring. Zen is bollacks, thats why I persue to experience or understand paranormal and spirituality. I can't understand this... if you understand this paradox crap then why do you do things. Whats your reason to do something. Why do you get up in the morning? Don't answer that with Zen crap, a human answer. A spark for the light bulb can't experience. We can.

Edited January 1, 2008 by Mbyte

[IronGhost]

If it's nothing then why is there energy? you go around in circles becasue you can't comprehend reality. We don't have sufficient knowledge to understand. What are morals in zen terms?

If your mother died you would care but you wouldn't care becasue it's an illusion. Thats hard to do when you understand it. How could you care if you understand it's an illusion. Why would you waist you time caring. Zen is bollacks, thats why I persue to experience or understand paranormal and spirituality. I can't understand this... if you understand this paradox crap then why do you do things. Whats your reason to do something. Why do you get up in the morning? Don't answer that with Zen crap, a human answer. A spark for the light bulb can't experience. We can.

But the answer is so very simple and so very obvious: You don't need a reason to get up in the morning. You're going to get up in the morning anyway, right? You're going to be doing something anyway, right? You just get up in the morning and do something.

You can have a reason if you want to. Nobody's stopping you.

EDIT: I forgot to answer your question about caring about your mother dying. You would still care about your mother even if you fully understood she was an illusion. We care about all kinds of stuff right now that are not real.

For example, why do people cry at a very sad movie? The characters in the movie are fictional, right? Yet, a movie can evoke very strong emotions in us.

A lot of people think it's silly for a person to cry at a sad movie, or if they are reading a fictional book. They say: "They're crying over something that is not real!"

Some people say they even cry when they saw the movie Bambi -- they cried when Bambi's mother got shot. Imagine! They were crying about a cartoon. How unreal is that!?

So, your mother is a much more real and persistent illusion then, say, Bambi -- so naturally we care about our mother's and grieve if she dies.

Edited January 1, 2008 by IronGhost

[Mbyte]

But the answer is so very simple and so very obvious: You don't need a reason to get up in the morning. You're going to get up in the morning anyway, right? You're going to be doing something anyway, right? You just get up in the morning and do something.

You can have a reason if you want to. Nobody's stopping you.

EDIT: I forgot to answer your question about caring about your mother dying. You would still care about your mother even if you fully understood she was an illusion. We care about all kinds of stuff right now that are not real.

For example, why do people cry at a very sad movie? The characters in the movie are fictional, right? Yet, a movie can evoke very strong emotions in us.

A lot of people think it's silly for a person to cry at a sad movie, or if they are reading a fictional book. They say: "They're crying over something that is not real!"

Some people say they even cry when they saw the movie Bambi -- they cried when Bambi's mother got shot. Imagine! They were crying about a cartoon. How unreal is that!?

So, your mother is a much more real and persistent illusion then, say, Bambi -- so naturally we care about our mother's and grieve if she dies.

The people don't look at it as an illusion other wise they wouldn't cry. They maybe cartoons but we made them. They are physical formations of our expression. I still can't understand how you can not be depressed. The people may believe in an illusion but they do not know it's an illusion. You do! what is governing what you do? when you decide to something you must see that it doesn't matter what you do. You can do anything that you want but there is nothing governing for you to do anything. You know everythings an illusion so how can you have a reason to do something? Would you cry a bambi? lets say your answer would be "it's a cartoon it's not real" then that answer could apply to your mother. Never the less she too is an illusion so why cry? she is already dead, no?

Do you believe in life after death? whats the best way you can live your life?

Zen is like seeing things without language

Edited January 1, 2008 by Mbyte

[IronGhost]

The people don't look at it as an illusion other wise they wouldn't cry. They maybe cartoons but we made them. They are physical formations of our expression. I still can't understand how you can not be depressed. The people may believe in an illusion but they do not know it's an illusion. You do! what is governing what you do? when you decide to something you must see that it doesn't matter what you do. You can do anything that you want but there is nothing governing for you to do anything. You know everythings an illusion so how can you have a reason to do something? Would you cry a bambi? lets say your answer would be "it's a cartoon it's not real" then that answer could apply to your mother. Never the less she too is an illusion so why cry? she is already dead, no?

Do you believe in life after death? whats the best way you can live your life?

Zen is like seeing things without language

You ask a lot of amazingly good questions, but I'll speak to just one right now. You ask, "How can I not be depressed." The simple answer is, after 27 years of Zen, "things" like "depression" really start to completely lose their meaning. You basically just stop believing in depression, so it stops being a problem.

But I'm just like anybody else, I can still get depressed sometimes. The thing about something like depression, though, is that is cannot stand to be "looked at." If you get depressed, and then you sit down in a chair and do nothing else but "look at" and contemplate your depression, it sooner or later gets very wavy and hazy and just sort of evaporates. Depression does not bare up well under scrutiny.

And another thing: Something that really overwhelmes you after years of meditation is how everything changes all the time. There is nothing, mental, emotional or phsyical that does not seem to constantly change in some way. The fact that everything is constantly changing really become very vivid in your experience. Thus, you know that when you get depressed, it will soon change because eveything is always changing.

So you can't get depressed by realizing that everything is an illusion, or you can't stay depressed anyway. Eveything just moves along.

[Mbyte]

You ask a lot of amazingly good questions, but I'll speak to just one right now. You ask, "How can I not be depressed." The simple answer is, after 27 years of Zen, "things" like "depression" really start to completely lose their meaning. You basically just stop believing in depression, so it stops being a problem.

But I'm just like anybody else, I can still get depressed sometimes. The thing about something like depression, though, is that is cannot stand to be "looked at." If you get depressed, and then you sit down in a chair and do nothing else but "look at" and contemplate your depression, it sooner or later gets very wavy and hazy and just sort of evaporates. Depression does not bare up well under scrutiny.

And another thing: Something that really overwhelmes you after years of meditation is how everything changes all the time. There is nothing, mental, emotional or phsyical that does not seem to constantly change in some way. The fact that everything is constantly changing really become very vivid in your experience. Thus, you know that when you get depressed, it will soon change because eveything is always changing.

So you can't get depressed by realizing that everything is an illusion, or you can't stay depressed anyway. Eveything just moves along.

When I saw everthing as an illusion I got depressed. I can understand how everything loses it's meaning. depression still occurs though, it's a product of psycology. All your doing is stripping away the "metric system", like english. I understand it now. Zen isen't as bollacks as I thought. The question in my last post still stand.

Edited January 1, 2008 by Mbyte

[metacast]

But I'm just like anybody else, I can still get depressed sometimes. The thing about something like depression, though, is that is cannot stand to be "looked at." If you get depressed, and then you sit down in a chair and do nothing else but "look at" and contemplate your depression, it sooner or later gets very wavy and hazy and just sort of evaporates. Depression does not bare up well under scrutiny.

i want to call zen a leech philosophy. because the host finds enough substance within the game to be a part of it and yet can reduce substance to nothing with a mental bail out that from what i can see adds no stature to the character of the host.

Edited January 1, 2008 by ADbox

[+joc]

"How can I not be depressed." The simple answer is, after 27 years of Zen, "things" like "depression" really start to completely lose their meaning. You basically just stop believing in depression, so it stops being a problem.

But I'm just like anybody else, I can still get depressed sometimes. The thing about something like depression, though, is that is cannot stand to be "looked at." If you get depressed, and then you sit down in a chair and do nothing else but "look at" and contemplate your depression, it sooner or later gets very wavy and hazy and just sort of evaporates. Depression does not bare up well under scrutiny.

Very insightful Ironghost!

Consider anger for example: Many people get angry with other people for whatever reason. They blame there anger on the other person. But if you contemplate your anger with closer scrutiny, you realize that your anger is not the other person's fault at all...it is only in your head...and by examining it closely, it looses the original meaning that you attached to it in the first place. So, it ceases to be anger...it changes into an understanding of what anger symbolizes.

While we are on the subject of anger; Anger is usually obtained by an unrealized expectation. If I expect a person to do a certain thing, or act a certain way, or believe a certain way and they don't, then I might become angry. Suppose I have a meeting with you at 9:00am. I get up very early, my whole day in fact is scheduled around our meeting. You don't show up, you don't call and my whole day then is shot. I might get angry with you. Deep observation of the anger however would indicate not a problem on your part...but a problem on my part. One of expectation of something that doesn't exist. Our meeting, although scheduled didn't really exist. It only existed in my mind as an expectation. That it wasn't realized is not a reason for anger. It is what it is...an unrealized expectation and nothing more. Realizing this diminishes the anger altogether. It just looses meaning and fades away.

Both of my parents are still alive. I know that there will be a day when I get a call that says otherwise. I will grieve when this happens. But, like anger, I realize what grief is...it has its place, it only exists in my mind and for a particular reason...close scrutiny of that reason will diminish the grief to a point where it isn't even grief anymore. This is pretty normal and everyone experiences it in some fashion. Understanding that it is all ultimately illusion doesn't change anything.

[metacast]

r. It is what it is...an unrealized expectation and nothing more. Realizing this diminishes the anger altogether. It just looses meaning and fades away.

thats an awsome outlook. So recently I just angered on a girl for rude behavior-- she hurt my want. instead of angering on her I should of just accepted that she is a poor channel for realized expectation -- and use take that however i want to apply it. still there may be an appropriate time to let others know how you feel would you agree?

question. you pointed out that although it doesnt exist it exists within your mind as expectation - so in that moment how real is it. does it not infinitely penetrate that moment?

Edited January 2, 2008 by ADbox

[+joc]

thats an awsome outlook. So recently I just angered on a girl for rude behavior-- she hurt my want. instead of angering on her I should of just accepted that she is a poor channel for realized expectation -- and use take that however i want to apply it. still there may be an appropriate time to let others know how you feel would you agree?

question. you pointed out that although it doesnt exist it exists within your mind as expectation - so in that moment how real is it. does it not infinitely penetrate that moment?

In that moment it isn't real at all. The moment isn't even real. If you let someone know they angered you, when in fact they haven't angered you at all...where does that leave the other person? If I say, ADbox, I am angry with you because you did such and such...then I am 'blaming' you for such and such; My anger is your fault. When in fact, the anger is my own fault because I was believing in the reality of the expectation I had for you to do such and such.

This is a difficult concept for many because they are unable to disassociate the mental thought process with the physical reality.

[Mbyte]

So you are going to have grief for your perants because???

I can't figure out why you would in my head

I always understood your anger example but that only applies to materialistic points of view. It doesn't apply to living beings. If I beat up a woman with a base ball bat infront of you would you not get angry? I can't see how you could dismiss your anger with with zen.

I also can't see how "Understanding that it is all ultimately illusion doesn't change anything."... that changes everything!!! We do things diffrently when we believe and now that you know it's an illusion you do things diffrently. You say that zen doesn't change what you do, you get depressed or anrgy but by knowing it's an illusion you can dismiss it and not get angry or depressed meaning there is a diffrence becasue a person under illusion would stay depressed and angry. Your contradicting yourself. Not that it's a paradox, to me it seems something is missing which would cancel the contradiction. What i'm implying is that maybe we arent an illusion. What I mean by that is that our feelings and emotions exist as an experience unlike inanimate objects in the universe. So when I beat a women to pulp you would try to stop me, right? becasue I am not just hitting an illusion I am creating an unplesant experience becasue a painful feeling... feels painful. How can an illusion be an illusion if she experiences it?

I would short curcuit my brain if i tried to understand this I wonder if you could answer it.

If a girl cheated on me and i'm hurt and angry, how do I understand that I have made myself angry and hurt?

Edited January 2, 2008 by Mbyte

[+joc]

So you are going to have grief for your perants because???

I can't figure out why you would in my head

Because I love them very much.

I always understood your anger example but that only applies to materialistic points of view. It doesn't apply to living beings. If I beat up a woman with a base ball bat infront of you would you not get angry? I can't see how you could dismiss your anger with with zen.

I think I would be...appalled, shocked, disgusted...a whole range of emotion...anger would probably come later. It isn't like I would think...hmm...that's not real...only illusion...and just walk away and never give you and the baseball bat another thought. I'm sure I would react like most people would. That doesn't mean that it isn't all illusion. As previously mentioned...one might experience the same emotions watching Hollywood actors on a movie screen doing what you suggested with the baseball bat. They certainly aren't real are they? They are illusions....and the emotions we experience when we are watching them are also illusions.

I also can't see how "Understanding that it is all ultimately illusion doesn't change anything."... that changes everything!!! We do things diffrently when we believe and now that you know it's an illusion you do things diffrently. You say that zen doesn't change what you do, you get depressed or anrgy but by knowing it's an illusion you can dismiss it and not get angry or depressed meaning there is a diffrence becasue a person under illusion would stay depressed and angry. Your contradicting yourself

Knowing that it is all illusion does change everything. I think that is why Ironghost said that Zen has destroyed his life. But, realizing that knowledge of the illusion changes everything doesn't change anything.

If a girl cheated on me and i'm hurt and angry, how do I understand that I have made myself angry and hurt?

You have made yourself angry because of your expectations that the girl will be faithful. You expect her to be faithful. When she doesn't meet your expectations you become angry. Is it her fault that you have high expectations of her? Is it her fault if she doesn't live up to your expectations? You could just have easily expected her to cheat on you. If you expected her to cheat and she did...would you still be angry? Your expectations are fantasy...they only exist as electrical impulses in your brain...all of your experiences involving your five senses are only electrical impulses in your brain. What is pain? It is an electrical impulse in your brain. If you break down the electrical impulse far enough you will discover that it isn't even electrical impulse. Pain hurts. I am experiencing pain in my back even as I am writing this....it doesn't change anything because I know the pain is an illusion. I just look at the pain a different way.

[metacast]

Knowing that it is all illusion does change everything. I think that is why Ironghost said that Zen has destroyed his life. But, realizing that knowledge of the illusion changes everything doesn't change anything.

thats why i said this

i want to call zen a leech philosophy. because the host finds enough substance within the game to be a part of it and yet can reduce substance to nothing with a mental bail out that from what i can see adds no stature to the character of the host.

zen seems to introduce a cognitive dissonance to subjective reality. Its like a backwards vacume of truth. its like diving back into the darkness. gonna go where the light goes persist with life and follow the relevant illusions in their context because i may can mentally reduce myself to nothing but i cannot actualize this idea of self- neither can any of us- why?

Edited January 2, 2008 by ADbox

[ShaunZero]

Sure, he was speaking to number of issues. Let me put it this way:

What if there was some "thing" in your life that was of extreme importance. What if this something was "a thing" you could not live a normal life without. What if you used this "thing" dozens of times every day. What if you used this "thing" to make sense of your reality. What if you used this thing in dozens of different ways. What if our banks used this "thing" every day to make money.

Okay, now what would you think if I were to tell you that this extremely important "thing" we are talking about does not exist -- it's just an illusion.

That would seem ridiculous, wouldn't it? Your whole life is wrapped up in using this "thing" every day, you are totaly dependent upon it, yet, it doesn't really exist.

Well, there is such a thing -- it's TIME!

We're all totally dependent upon it, we use it every day, yet it doesn't exist. Banks use it to calculate interest -- that's how they make money. If we did not have time, there would be no monetary system -- yet, time is only a concept, not a reality.

But that doesn't bother any of us. We take something that has no reality and use it every day, and shape our whole lives around it. We even wish we had "more" of it -- so we could live longer. But we can't have "more" time because there is no such thing.

Einstein was the very first to consider that time is not an absolute "thing." It's very fluid and totally dependent on the viewpoint of the perceiver of time. The faster your rate of speed, the slower time goes -- but not for the traveler. He still experiences time at the same rate. But to all others, his time is moving slower.

All measurement of time is relative -- you could not measure time if you did not have two things to compare to each other. Time in an illusion created by what we perceive to be objects out there in the universe. But what if you could go to a place in the universe -- say, way deep out in space -- where there was nothing except a vacuum. You can't even see any stars. It's just all black. You don't have a watch on -- how would you tell time out there? You might try to count your own heartbeats, I suppose, but that wouldn't be very easy. When a doctor checks your pulse, he does so while looking at his watch. Why? He needs one thing to compare another thing with in order for it to exist.

But the bottom line is, there is no time. It's just a an invention -- yet we all are totally dependent on something which does not exist.

Well, "time" has always existed in my eyes. And "time" was always just a concept in my eyes, and this concept actually does exist, it's just that most people mistake it for an actual "thing". Hence, time was never an illusion to me..