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UK; 66,000 Women and Girls


libertyworld

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January 3, 2008

UK: 66,000 women and girls have undergone female genital mutilation

Eurabia Alert. "The unspeakable practice of female circumcision that's destroying young women's lives in Britain," by Jo-Ann Goodwin and David Jones in the Daily Mail (thanks to Sugiero):

...During a highly disturbing, four-month investigation, however, we uncovered evidence that thousands of British-African girls, in towns and cities throughout the country, have been forcibly "cut".

By conservative estimates, 66,000 women and girls living in Britain have been mutilated. This figure, accepted by the Metropolitan Police, came in a report by a volunteer organisation funded by the Department of Health and carried out with academics from the London School of Tropical Hygiene and the City University.

And thousands more girls are at imminent risk as families club together to fly professional "cutters" from Africa to Britain.

These women "elders" perform the crude operation for up to £40 a time, often on kitchen tables or floors, without anaesthetic, using filthy, blunt knives, razor blades or scalpels.[...]

But of course, the increasingly dhimmi Daily Mail hastens to assure us, it has nothing to do with Islam:

Attempts are also made to justify this iniquitous practice on religious grounds. Some hard-line Muslims insist that women must undergo genital cutting to remain faithful to the purest teachings of Islam - although, in truth, it is not even mentioned in the Koran, and only ambiguously in the Hadith (a collection of oral traditions about the life of the prophet Mohammed).[...]

In reality, while many say that there is nothing in Islam which requires female circumcision, one of Sunni Islam’s “Four Great Imams,” Ahmad ibn Hanbal (from whom the Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence takes its name) quotes Muhammed as saying: “Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women.”

Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi of Egypt’s Al-Azhar University has called circumcision “a laudable practice that did honor to women.”

But the Daily Mail either doesn't know or doesn't care to know about such Islamic justifications for this practice. Yet as long as they remain unconfronted, this barbarity will continue.

Posted by Robert Spencer, January 3, 2008 7:55 AM

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019427.php

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Why do we easily let this b******* into this country... They should be kicked out, and the women allowed to stay - due to husband barbariety.

And they say arranged marriages work... Yeah... Because finding someone you love also means you'd do that... >.>

Edited by Chokmah
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So they cut off their clitorises, that's female circumcision, right?

I'm torn over this. I mean, it's barbaric, but do people have a right to be barbaric in their own cultures? If it's one's culture, how far do we go in allowing one to practice that culture? Should we prevent jews from doing male circumcisions too? Are they even on the same level?

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yep, now there's something the liberal left doesn't want to address.

Still, it's part of there culture and we must respect it for the greater good of a 'multicultural-diverse society.'

Strokes beard, organic green-leaf tea anyone?

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yep, now there's something the liberal left doesn't want to address.

Ahem...I'm adressing it. I dont' think that the "liberal left" is not addressing this. Can we have a discussion without libeling a political ideology for once, please?

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So they cut off their clitorises, that's female circumcision, right?

I'm torn over this. I mean, it's barbaric, but do people have a right to be barbaric in their own cultures? If it's one's culture, how far do we go in allowing one to practice that culture? Should we prevent jews from doing male circumcisions too? Are they even on the same level?

Not even on the same level.

How far should we go? A reasonable question.

I don't care if it is "their culture".

I say to look at such barbarity and not condemn it is wrong and spineless.

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Not even on the same level.

How far should we go? A reasonable question.

I don't care if it is "their culture".

I say to look at such barbarity and not condemn it is wrong and spineless.

From what i gather, it is non- consensual mutilation for which i'm fairly sure there are laws in this country preventing such.

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So they cut off their clitorises, that's female circumcision, right?

I'm torn over this.

:lol: good one! you sly old dog you... thought we wouldn't notice.. ^_^

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From what i gather, it is non- consensual mutilation for which i'm fairly sure there are laws in this country preventing such.

Except they don't care about your laws, do they.

...because they consider you an infidel anyway.

...and consider it their country now.

Edited by libertyworld
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:lol: good one! you sly old dog you... thought we wouldn't notice.. ^_^

lol. Usually, the labia and clitoris are cut away before the remaining cavity is sewn up, leaving a tiny hole for urination which often gets infected. When a female circumsee is married, she is usuall 'opened up' by her loving husband.

It has often gone from being a tribal/cultural practice to one confused with islamic belief generally as a result of misinformation by proponents of female circumcision.

Edited by 1.618
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Ahem...I'm adressing it. I dont' think that the "liberal left" is not addressing this. Can we have a discussion without libeling a political ideology for once, please?

er why reply unless you class yourself as the liberal-left?

If you notice, we actually posted at the same time (407)...so I didn't notice your reply.

And yet, I was still able to predict your response or what a 'liberal leftie' would say... :lol:

Still, it's part of there culture and we must respect it for the greater good of a 'multicultural-diverse society.'

Strokes beard, organic green-leaf tea anyone?

sniff, it's all too easy...

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I say to look at such barbarity and not condemn it is wrong and spineless.

I'm condemning it, but I don't know enough about it to declare that it should not be allowed if it is within one's culture.

Male circumcision isn't consensual when it's done to infants either.

Surely, I find female circumcision barbaric and disgusting, reprehensible even. But I am not sure where to put the line. People have a right to be disgusting and barbaric to some extent. Is this the line that we decide is the point where we don't allow a custom, as horrible as it is, to be practiced? I'm open to hearing the argument.

er why reply unless you class yourself as the liberal-left?

I don't belong to a political party, but I do have many left leaning opinions.

If you had read my response more carefully, you would notice that I didn't say:

Still, it's part of there culture and we must respect it for the greater good of a 'multicultural-diverse society.'

but I did say:

I mean, it's barbaric, but do people have a right to be barbaric in their own cultures? If it's one's culture, how far do we go in allowing one to practice that culture?

I didn't mention anything about a multicultural diverse society. It's a question of freedom to practice one's own culture or religious beliefs.

See, even though I find it reprehensible, the idea of religious/cultural freedom enters here. I'm open to learning more before deciding this is where the line gets drawn when it's done on british or american soil.

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So they cut off their clitorises, that's female circumcision, right?

I'm torn over this. I mean, it's barbaric, but do people have a right to be barbaric in their own cultures? If it's one's culture, how far do we go in allowing one to practice that culture? Should we prevent jews from doing male circumcisions too? Are they even on the same level?

Male circumcisions are the removel of the foreskin only.

If you wanna compare female circumcision to male circumcision; it'd be like removing the penis head.

So drastic is the mutilation involved in the latter operation that young brides have to be cut open to allow penetration on their wedding night and are customarily sewn up afterwards.

The aim of the process is to ensure the woman is faithful to her future husband. Some communities consider girls ineligible for marriage if they have not been circumcised.

Girls as young as three undergo the process, but the age at which the operation is performed varies according to country and culture.

Health workers say that the operation is often carried out in unsanitary conditions.

Razor blades, scissors, kitchen knives and even pieces of glass are used, often on more than one girl, which increases the risk of infection.

Anaesthesia is rarely used.

Some girls die as a result of haemorraging, septicemia and shock.

It can also lead to long-term urinary and reproductive problems.

However, girls who have not been circumcised are considered "unclean" in many cultures, and can be treated as harlots by other women. Many men believe the folklore which says they will die if their penis touches a clitoris.

BBC - Female genital multilation. <<< Linkage to rest.

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I didn't mention anything about a multicultural diverse society. It's a question of freedom to practice one's own culture or religious beliefs.

See, even though I find it reprehensible, the idea of religious/cultural freedom enters here. I'm open to learning more before deciding this is where the line gets drawn when it's done on british or american soil.

So what if my culture involves cannibilism? Am I allowed to do it if it's part of my belief system?

And what difference does it make whether it's on UK or USA soil? Does it make it any less brutal or barbaric if it's carried out in some far off place?

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This is just totally discusting. Considering religions and cultures are MAN-MADE this is just WRONG! I feel it should be banned to mutilate any human in any way for religious/cultural reasons. I don't car what anyone else says... this is just horridly WRONG!

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From what I can see, it's not the same as a male circumcision.... it seems to play into the whole "men are greater than women" obsession that cultures of the middle east commonly warrant. It's removing their ability to be pleasured by intercourse and removing any free will in deciding what THEY get to do with THEIR body...

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So what if my culture involves cannibilism? Am I allowed to do it if it's part of my belief system?

Canibalism? There are cultures that eat their own dead. And cultures that leave them in a little stone room without a ceiling for the vultures to pick clean. (zoroastrians). I'm not aware of any cultures that are living in the US and GB right now that eat their own dead, though, so it's not an issue.

And what difference does it make whether it's on UK or USA soil? Does it make it any less brutal or barbaric if it's carried out in some far off place?

While I will entertain the idea that we can dictate behavior in our own countries, I don't believe any culture can dictate another culture's practices on their own soil, short of genocide.

This is just totally discusting. Considering religions and cultures are MAN-MADE this is just WRONG! I feel it should be banned to mutilate any human in any way for religious/cultural reasons.

Are you also agains jewish circumcision?

My initial thoughts are that the female circumcision should be illegal and enforced on US and GB soil, but I'm not positive it doesn't cross the line where I'm willing to impose my culture or morality. I'm leaning toward the idea that it is crossing the line, I'm just not as sure about that as some of you. Keep debating, I'm not ready to declare an opinion yet.

If there was a culture that cut off teenager's penis heads, I would feel the same way.

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Are you also agains jewish circumcision?

I've already told you and also linked you to, why female circumcision is very different to male circumcision.

Male circumcision make no difference to the man. However it does dull the sensitivity slightly. But doesn't lead to death, infection, pain as female circumcision does.

When you go to a country, you obey their laws. Whether something is in your religion, should make no difference. No one made them come here, if they want to toture women, do it in their own islamic countries. But in the west, we're more advanced than the M.E.

Edited by Chokmah
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I'm condemning it, but I don't know enough about it to declare that it should not be allowed if it is within one's culture.

well, try a bit of research.. you could go to your local library, but true, sometimes this can be a inconvenience, so instead I use something called the internet.

But I'm not sure whether you have internet access or maybe you're a novice? :lol:

Edited by Billy of the Hill
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I've already told you and also linked you to, why female circumcision is very different to male circumcision.

I'm responding to the poster who said this:

I feel it should be banned to mutilate any human in any way for religious/cultural reasons.

Male circumcision make no difference to the man.

That's not accurate. Being circumcised as a man decreases sensation and leaves the most sensitive skin exposed to friction with udnergarments, further reducing sensation. Clearly, it's not on par with female circumcision, and I'm not arguing that it is. But it does make a difference.

But doesn't lead to death, infection, pain as female circumcision does.

That's right. But someone else said:

I feel it should be banned to mutilate any human in any way for religious/cultural reasons.

and I was curious if this applied to jewish circumcision as well.

When you go to a country, you obey their laws. Whether something is in your religion, should make no difference.

Do you feel that way when a westerner is arrested for not wearing the proper head covering? Or when a missionary is arrested for preaching christianity? Or when a westerner is arrested for exposing her ankle, or any of the other ridiculous things westerners get in trouble for over there?

It has to go both ways, then.

I'm not undecided that female circumcision is reprehensible, i'm just not as eager to impose a restriction on a culture or religion as some of you appear to be, although I am leaning more and more that way for this particular instance.

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In Canada, this practice is banned, but it still occurs within the community. It is a cultural issue and as such is very difficult to eradicate

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link

Since the 1985 Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act it has been against the law for anyone to perform female genital mutilation in the UK. However, through a legal loophole young girls could still be taken out of the country to have this procedure performed overseas. This loophole was closed in England, Wales and Northern Ireland in 2004 and in Scotland in 2005, when it became a criminal offence to take or arrange for a girl child to be taken out of the UK for this purpose. The penalty on conviction was also extended from five to 14 years; though to date there have been no prosecutions in the UK.

mmmh wonder why?

A. due to leftie-liberals being somewhat confused on the matter?

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Any unnecessary surgery should be banned from being performed on those who haven't reached the age where they can make their own informed decisions, this goes for cosmetic as well as the barbaric cutting off of genitalia discussed here. A number, small I grant you, of young jewish infants die in the UK every year from circumcision complications God only knows what the figures are for countries with bigger jewish populations or countries where it is the norm or for home female circumcisions.

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A. due to leftie-liberals being somewhat confused on the matter?

When you slip and fall down the stairs, do you also blame liberals?

There probably have been no prosecutions, I'm speculating, because, like Goblin-5 stated,

It is a cultural issue and as such is very difficult to eradicate

If it is against the law, then they should prosecute. But for that, you would need to find out who it's been done to and when. You would need testimony about who preformed the circumcision. I imagine that a culture that views women this way probably don't take them to the gynocologist or to a doctor that would examine their genitals. Their women probably don't talk about it, and probably won't testify, as doing so would most likely render them outcast from their society. So how do you go about catching people who are doing this?

Edited by Neognosis
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