WraithGod Posted March 19, 2008 #576 Share Posted March 19, 2008 fyi im getting my masters in bio and in philosiphy so yeah sorry also in the storys laid down by my tribe they never sperted fire they controlled the sesons there where many and where revered as spirits You're entitled to your beliefs, but as a biology major you should realize the physical impossibility of these creatures existing as anything more than a metaphor. I would also suggest you credit your profile picture, she is one of my favorite artists and I don't like her work spread around like that. discovery did do a show on how and why dragons may have came to be and how they lived... 1. "special bacteria" 2. "magical" 3. Hydrogen bladders are not plausible, especially in a FIRE-BREATHING creature Those are three of the issues I found in just the summary. It was meant to be fun, hypothetical. There are many holes and impossibilities still and these creatures have no place in the evolutionary course of history. I thought you said you were a biology major. This is a scientific conversation and you need to remove your religious beliefs if they are not founded in scientific fact or evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocturnal Posted March 19, 2008 #577 Share Posted March 19, 2008 3. Hydrogen bladders are not plausible, especially in a FIRE-BREATHING creature Perhaps they have hydrogen bladders, and their fire is really a fusion reaction.. resulting in harmless helium... ;p Man.. dragons off mastering cold fusion thousands of years before we entertained the idea... Of course in a more serious note, there is already precedent in known living creatures of the storing of two gasses that mix to create a volatile explosion. There's no reason a fire breathing creature couldn't have hydrogen bladders, since pure hydrogen isn't flammable, it requires an oxygen mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gremlin Posted March 19, 2008 #578 Share Posted March 19, 2008 i was intrigued about those hawaiian dragons, didnt take much digging to come up with this http://www.coffeetimes.com/geckos.htm as you may have guessed b4 clicking the link...they are linked to those cute lovely geko lizards. There is an archetypal lizard spirit, (who looks like a giant geko) that has a rich mythical tradition there...no mention of wings/breathing fire etc. It is variously good/protective, or bad. i didnt realise that snakes were not indigenous to Hawaii....guess you learn something new every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archosaur Posted March 19, 2008 #579 Share Posted March 19, 2008 (edited) ((Oh my GOD, I wasn't logged in and my post got deleted. I am -p***ed-.)) Uhm, you'd have to have not read or understood a lot of the thread or be pointlessly headstrong *coughsomepeopleweknowcough* to say it HASN'T been proven beyond reasonable doubt that dragons exist or ever have existed in more than the imagination. I don't know if it's just me, but dinosaur skulls don't resemble mammal skulls at all. They're something different. As for ancient peoples classfying dragons as reptiles, I'm sure that exact label would have come later on. Don't forget that the skeletons of ancient sea creatures, which would be very serpentine in appearance, would have been far more common than dinosaur bones. Therefore, they would have thought serpent. Also, there is a universal stigma surrounding reptiles. They are nothing like mammals of any kind in appearance; they have no comforting fur or hair, their eyes are flat and unexpressive, their expressions appear blank and cold and unaffected, tey don't respond to each other or other creatures the way mammals do. They are foreign and sinister to us, the psychopaths of the animal world if you will. From the very beginning the bad guys have been fanged and scaly. Though the ancients wouldn't have known the classification reptile, they would have grouped such big, terrifying, foreign skeletons with other creatures that represented those features. This seems to be going in circles, we've got a few kids saying they like dragons, and then there's DC who was being humored by Archie. But everyone who's made an input of some kind seems to agree that they're legends based off of fossil remains or large modern reptiles, no? And speaking of dragons, anyone else see Beowulf? That was a kick-ass drake design. P.S. Thanks for the endearing gecko-dragon story Grem! Edit: Removed unnecessary snipe. Wraith, I think you misunderstand me. I agree that dragons haven't been proven, at all. It has been proven that many early peoples believed in there existence. This forum is attempting to examine the origin of that belief. As to that, I will leave out further mention of actual existence, you probably know my ideas there, and focus on more testable hypotheses. Dr. Carl Sagen suggested, in "Dragons of Eden" that all mammals may carry a kind of biological program regarding reptiles, hearkening back to the age of the dinosaurs. Back then mammals were indeed facing the dragons of their time, bigger, faster, more intelligent, and essentially invulnerable. So, it is conceivable that this creature that haunts our dreams may have such an origin. I think that this may be part of it, but not all. I must say you are mistaken in your impression that the dragons were always the bad guys of the ancient world. There are as many or more cases where they were benign or beneficent as they were malign. Though I agree that the Boewulf dragon was beautiful. PS: Thanks for the Gecko-Dragon Grem! Edited March 19, 2008 by Archosaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gremlin Posted March 19, 2008 #580 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Wraith, I think you misunderstand me. I agree that dragons haven't been proven, at all. It has been proven that many early peoples believed in there existence. This forum is attempting to examine the origin of that belief. As to that, I will leave out further mention of actual existence, you probably know my ideas there, and focus on more testable hypotheses. Dr. Carl Sagen suggested, in "Dragons of Eden" that all mammals may carry a kind of biological program regarding reptiles, hearkening back to the age of the dinosaurs. Back then mammals were indeed facing the dragons of their time, bigger, faster, more intelligent, and essentially invulnerable. So, it is conceivable that this creature that haunts our dreams may have such an origin. I think that this may be part of it, but not all. I must say you are mistaken in your impression that the dragons were always the bad guys of the ancient world. There are as many or more cases where they were benign or beneficent as they were malign. Though I agree that the Boewulf dragon was beautiful. PS: Thanks for the Gecko-Dragon Grem! I got a problem with the enboldened statement. It suggests that dragons, like those of modern fiction were believed in by 'early peoples'....this is not the case. If we were to clarify this for argument sake perhaps it would be more accurate to say that 'early peoples believed in various reptilian archetypes' . would that be reasonable to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undeadskeptic Posted March 19, 2008 #581 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Well then they found bones of many different mammals, and called them dragons. Alligators/Crocs/Lizards got exaggerated - dragons. Distant memories of dragon-like creatures from distant lands got exaggerated -more dragons. CAN WE PLEASE END THIS MADNESS NOW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent. Mulder Posted March 20, 2008 #582 Share Posted March 20, 2008 yeah i was but ppl just cant except a differnt races veiws they just like to shoot em down ummm, no. nice try, but no. if i managed to read that correctly, you think because its a Different Races views? they didnt exist? were talking about Dragons here! do you know how many cultures have them!? lol besides, were not talking about dinos. i can Prove they existed. these are dragons, only in pics and stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocturnal Posted March 20, 2008 #583 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I'm curious one of you ancient civ buffs. I know that over history there have been 'good' dragons... but did dragons start out as good in those cultures? Or are those stories that developed after the dragon was introduced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
667-Neighbor of the Beast Posted March 20, 2008 Author #584 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I got a problem with the enboldened statement. It suggests that dragons, like those of modern fiction were believed in by 'early peoples'....this is not the case. If we were to clarify this for argument sake perhaps it would be more accurate to say that 'early peoples believed in various reptilian archetypes' . would that be reasonable to you? That is true. Like you mentioned before, the Greeks penned the term "drakon", which eventually became dragon, and the legends of these creature existed before that term was coined. But, in order to keep the different legends historically correct, we would have to all agree on the exact definitian of what a dragon is, and then seperate it from the different legends of giant snakes, crocs, geckos, or whatever other reptilian might not fit in with the definitian. Instead, people generally tend to take any legend of any type of overgrown reptile, and lable it as a dragon legend. Well then they found bones of many different mammals, and called them dragons. Alligators/Crocs/Lizards got exaggerated - dragons. Distant memories of dragon-like creatures from distant lands got exaggerated -more dragons. CAN WE PLEASE END THIS MADNESS NOW? I honestly think that those explanations only cover a small fraction of the legends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undeadskeptic Posted March 21, 2008 #585 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I honsetly think you can't prove otherwise and that all in all my theory is the best offered up so far. A large reptile comes up in every culture because reptiles are so opposite of human, and the idea of a giant one is indeed terrifying. This, added up with the above reasons caused the myth to spring up in various locations across earth, and through travel the legend eventually spread until it was a huge global phenomena. R.I.P this thread, please somebody! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted March 21, 2008 #586 Share Posted March 21, 2008 R.I.P this thread, please somebody! The problem with that, brother Undead, is that people keep coming up with such good questions, like: I'm curious one of you ancient civ buffs. I know that over history there have been 'good' dragons... but did dragons start out as good in those cultures? Or are those stories that developed after the dragon was introduced? Suppose, for the sake of argument, that "dragon" is an archetype. Then we would we expect it to be like the other archetypes we know about, and share archetypical attributes. The number one archetypical attribute is that it would correspond to an aspect or aspects of ourselves. So, "good" and "bad" get a little murky. Archetypes are what they are more than good or bad. Just like us. The same instance of an archetype could seem good or bad, depending on how you look at it, on what the situation is, and who's doing the looking. Just like us. Compare the career of that other archetype, the old woman who lives alone away from society, call her "crone." In one story, crone heals the sick, or lifts enchantments, or tells lost travelers the way on to adventure and the way back home. In another story, she bakes little children for dessert. Same archetype, different instances, all part of each of us. Did crone start good, and end up bad, or was it the other way around? Neither, probably. If dragon is an archetype, then neither is the way to bet there, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undeadskeptic Posted March 21, 2008 #587 Share Posted March 21, 2008 So thats all sorted out, good, good, now I'll get a coffin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
667-Neighbor of the Beast Posted March 21, 2008 Author #588 Share Posted March 21, 2008 So thats all sorted out, good, good, now I'll get a coffin... I am very much enjoying hearing other peoples opinions and theories on this topic. Why would we want to close a topic that is still pulling in good ideas from readers and posters?? Hell, we only just now really got into the actual topics after getting rid of an unnamed person who was hijacking the thread to promote his supposed book. I just won the topic back!! I don't want to close it after working that hard to win it back!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undeadskeptic Posted March 21, 2008 #589 Share Posted March 21, 2008 You do realise this is a topic about Dragons right? We're having serious debates over the origins of a childrens fariytale creature?! THIS IS SPARTA! Woops, can I try that one again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
667-Neighbor of the Beast Posted March 21, 2008 Author #590 Share Posted March 21, 2008 You do realise this is a topic about Dragons right? We're having serious debates over the origins of a childrens fariytale creature?! THIS IS SPARTA! Woops, can I try that one again? Well, they are alot more than just childrens fairy tales. Dragons are one of the oldest crypid creatures on earth. They make appearances in religion, history, and stories since the beginning of recorded history. They make appearances in fairy tales too, but the origins go much more in depth than just kids tales for entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undeadskeptic Posted March 21, 2008 #591 Share Posted March 21, 2008 DC? You stole 667's account? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyaneyed Posted March 21, 2008 #592 Share Posted March 21, 2008 DC? You stole 667's account? I like to stay neutral on these things and I have nothing against DC nor yourself/selves. But I have to say the amount of inane jibes at his expense in every other thread here is surely worse than anything he ever did. It's old and turns me off posting in otherwise interesting threads when they deteriorate into 'DC jokes'. Not a personal attack but I just think it needs to be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatFenris Posted March 21, 2008 #593 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I like to stay neutral on these things and I have nothing against DC nor yourself/selves. But I have to say the amount of inane jibes at his expense in every other thread here is surely worse than anything he ever did. It's old and turns me off posting in otherwise interesting threads when they deteriorate into 'DC jokes'. Not a personal attack but I just think it needs to be said. Even if I am new here I must say no. it isn't. He replied to almsot every post with a "It's like this" Then came "You're stupid and can't understand. Go play Dungeons and Dragons and watch Beowulf." That's not polite in any way, jibing him might not be the height of civility but it isn't that bad. And there are many, many cryptids we could discuss that's as old as dragons aren't there? Demons? The strange beings in the darkness we're so terrified about. Dragons are, if I may hazard a guess...A genetic memory coupled with large bones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyaneyed Posted March 21, 2008 #594 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Even if I am new here I must say no. it isn't. He replied to almsot every post with a "It's like this" Then came "You're stupid and can't understand. Go play Dungeons and Dragons and watch Beowulf." That's not polite in any way, jibing him might not be the height of civility but it isn't that bad. And there are many, many cryptids we could discuss that's as old as dragons aren't there? Demons? The strange beings in the darkness we're so terrified about. Dragons are, if I may hazard a guess...A genetic memory coupled with large bones. I understand the +1 to your popularity with this post, but the fact is that DC has stopped posting. Despite that, there are constant jibes about him which generally take over threads. I didnt make my post to question the accusations thrown at DC, those are irrelevant. I just think enough is enough with the goading. People got what they wanted, he stopped posting, so leave it at that. At present it's everywhere I look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
667-Neighbor of the Beast Posted March 21, 2008 Author #595 Share Posted March 21, 2008 DC? You stole 667's account? Nah, if he was here, he would be arguing that they aren't legends, but that they are real. I'm not saying that they are real, I am just curious as to the origins of the MYTH. I know dragons aren't real, but the legends have been around for a long time. I would just like to hear what people's opinions are on the origins of the myth. You are more than welcome to ignore any topic that you don't want to participate in. But, comparing me to him?? Man, those are harsh words!! I understand the +1 to your popularity with this post, but the fact is that DC has stopped posting. Despite that, there are constant jibes about him which generally take over threads. I didnt make my post to question the accusations thrown at DC, those are irrelevant. I just think enough is enough with the goading. People got what they wanted, he stopped posting, so leave it at that. At present it's everywhere I look. Think of it kind of like Bush. Once the idiot is gone, jokes about him will continue for a long time. It will fade. The occasional joke about him might pop up here and there, because let's face it, he is the biggest joke most of us have ever seen on here. But, if you only came into this thread to mention him, isn't that just as bad?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyaneyed Posted March 21, 2008 #596 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Think of it kind of like Bush. Once the idiot is gone, jokes about him will continue for a long time. It will fade. The occasional joke about him might pop up here and there, because let's face it, he is the biggest joke most of us have ever seen on here. But, if you only came into this thread to mention him, isn't that just as bad?? Perhaps. I wasnt trying to start a riot anyway, it just seemed like someone had to mention it was getting a bit too frequent. Anyway I digress, I wasn't trying to start a debate over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatFenris Posted March 21, 2008 #597 Share Posted March 21, 2008 I understand the +1 to your popularity with this post, but the fact is that DC has stopped posting. Despite that, there are constant jibes about him which generally take over threads. I didnt make my post to question the accusations thrown at DC, those are irrelevant. I just think enough is enough with the goading. People got what they wanted, he stopped posting, so leave it at that. At present it's everywhere I look. Ooooh. +1 Popularity. Funny I'd prefer a "Sorry, I misbehaved" from the said party, and a moving on in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Maharaja Posted March 21, 2008 #598 Share Posted March 21, 2008 Amazing, DC isn,t even here yet his name still hijacks the thread by proxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saru Posted March 21, 2008 #599 Share Posted March 21, 2008 There's far too much bashing and jibes going on here aimed at a particular member who despite not posting still seems to be attracting a lot of negative attention and it's really time that this stopped. It isn't necessary to bring him up every few posts in any thread covering dragons, by doing so you are disrupting the discussion more than he ever did. As for the thread, I think we can safely close this one down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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