Cloning Can Not Succeed

[Cimber]

What if it does not want to give it's stem cells away?

Would The clone be patented, and therby Owned by its creator, and anything goes?

Kind of Like what Monsanto is doing with its genetic crops which if It crosses with a natural The natural does not produce seeds Then you will have to buy your seed from Monsanto , Because they own the rights to your Food ?

This is a Disgusting Buisness, in My eyes.

Check out what has gone on behind Closed Lab doors in the freedom of information act, with the Govmt Aproval, and you will see How ethical they are.

Love Omnaka

You don't have to have a full human to obtain stem cells. This obviously shows your poor understanding of science which means your whole argument is highly suspect.

This business you are speaking of doesn't even exist yet, manufacturing humans. Theres a huge difference between food and humans

Edited January 20, 2008 by Cimber

[Raptor]

What if it does not want to give it's stem cells away?

Would The clone be patented, and therby Owned by its creator, and anything goes?

Kind of Like what Monsanto is doing with its genetic crops which if It crosses with a natural The natural does not produce seeds Then you will have to buy your seed from Monsanto , Because they own the rights to your Food ?

This is a Disgusting Buisness, in My eyes.

Check out what has gone on behind Closed Lab doors in the freedom of information act, with the Govmt Aproval, and you will see How ethical they are.

Love Omnaka

Stem cells can be extracted from a blastocyst, a collection of cells.

[Saraswati]

You seriously have no idea what the scientific community is about or how it goes about research. There are tremendous walls in the scope of ethics that must be observed.

No, full humans will not be experimented on, at least as long there isn't a totalitarian government that rules the world within the next few years.

Full humans wouldn't be used or experimented on.

Full humans wouldn't be used or experimented on.

*Full* humans wouldn't be used or experimented on.

Emphasis on the word "Full". One of the articles someone linked to, mentioned that the chinese made a human-rabbit hybrid embryo. What is that, creation of a Rabbit-Boy? And in doing so, it is no longer a full human, is it? Oh, no human rights for you, child, this is the future of Dr Moreau, where lots of underpeople are the new slaves. And what happens when someone invents a genetic cure for cystic fibrosis, then they announce a few generations later that all descendents are no longer full humans because they now have a gene from some other lifeform?

[Omnaka]

You have to remember He is speaking For the whole scientific comunity , I may not Have The science Backround He does , But I don't need It to see the atrocities which have been performed on Humans In the name Of Science.

I can Guarantee That most of the sick inventions of Science Have been used On Humans and animals, Just to see what the effects are.

This is bad science Imo.

Dr meurau was a Good analogy, Frankenstien is another.

Love Omnaka

Love Omnaka

[Cimber]

Full humans wouldn't be used or experimented on.

*Full* humans wouldn't be used or experimented on.

Emphasis on the word "Full". One of the articles someone linked to, mentioned that the chinese made a human-rabbit hybrid embryo. What is that, creation of a Rabbit-Boy? And in doing so, it is no longer a full human, is it? Oh, no human rights for you, child, this is the future of Dr Moreau, where lots of underpeople are the new slaves. And what happens when someone invents a genetic cure for cystic fibrosis, then they announce a few generations later that all descendents are no longer full humans because they now have a gene from some other lifeform?

By full humans, we are not referring to a living being, but the embryo.

The embryo is not yet a living human, it should therefor not be subject to controversy surrounding such things as stem cell research.

You are seriously over reacting to issues surrounding cloning. Theres a reason why laws are in place for this, and why such crazy notions some people are bringing up will never happen.

But, if you wish, you can continue to protect that which is not a living being, while refusing to save those who are already struggling to survive with serious illnesses.

Edited January 20, 2008 by Cimber

[Omnaka]

By full humans, we are not referring to a living being, but the embryo.

The embryo is not yet a living human, it should therefor not be subject to controversy surrounding such things as stem cell research.

You are seriously over reacting to issues surrounding cloning. Theres a reason why laws are in place for this, and why such crazy notions some people are bringing up will never happen.

But, if you wish, you can continue to protect that which is not a living being, while refusing to save those who are already struggling to survive with serious illnesses.

The spirit is Inserted at conception in a regular Making of a Baby, Equalling Life, Your speculation that an embrio is not Life is another sick twist on science, Making it Ok to do what ever one wants in the name ofscience.

At what stage do you think Life Begins?

Some might say Puberty.

Others might say when You stick it with a needle and it cries.

Love Omnaka

[Cimber]

The spirit is Inserted at conception in a regular Making of a Baby, Equalling Life, Your speculation that an embrio is not Life is another sick twist on science, Making it Ok to do what ever one wants in the name ofscience.

At what stage do you think Life Begins?

Some might say Puberty.

Others might say when You stick it with a needle and it cries.

Love Omnaka

Calling science sick? I would rather call your so-called beliefs sick for refusing to give medical care to those in need of it.

Its more than sick when you reject the notion of possibly saving millions of lives, because you 'believe' that a spirit inhabits an embryo.

You continually say that you love others, but this couldn't be further from the truth when you refuse to save living people's lives.

An embryo is not a living human

End of story

Laypeople have no business telling scientists what to research. Politicians also have no business messing with what should be studied when they have no idea what an embryo is or what cloning entails.

What do you think Scientific Ethics Committees are for? You obviously have never heard of them.

Edited January 20, 2008 by Cimber

[Omnaka]

Calling science sick? I would rather call your so-called beliefs sick for refusing to give medical care to those in need of it.

Its more than sick when you reject the notion of possibly saving millions of lives, because you 'believe' that a spirit inhabits an embryo.

You continually say that you love others, but this couldn't be further from the truth when you refuse to save living people's lives.

An embryo is not a living human

End of story

Laypeople have no business telling scientists what to research. Politicians also have no business messing with what should be studied when they have no idea what an embryo is or what cloning entails.

What do you think Scientific Ethics Committees are for? You obviously have never heard of them.

I have No problem With Kids getting Medical atention they need, If it is niot at the expence and Or Pain Of another Unwilling subject, which if you had it your way the subject would be owned In Whole or Part by it's creator, and then anything Goes,

Scientific ethecs comittee, Would this be Like the watchdogs Bush has watching over the environment, The same ones who polute it.

Yes lets get a bunch of scientists to Rein in their contemporaries, Fat chance, Is this Scientific watch dog comittee A new thing Or was it around when they were feeding Babies Radio active Milk, and infecting Black people with Ghonoreah, Just to see the results ?

When was this ethicks comittee formed. and By who?

Omnaka

Ps as much as you would like it to be the end Of story On when an Life begins, it is not the end Of story, Thats why the debate Of abortion continues Today. At what point does the scientific Comunity think Life begins?

First breath maybe?

Edited January 20, 2008 by Omnaka

[Cimber]

Ethics plays a huge role in what you can do research wise. I know because I am involved in it on a daily basis. The reason I am responding to this topic is because I know what research entails, and everyone is totally blowing this out of the water.

This is a serious topic for me, because its people who understand nothing about scientific research, that is keeping it back.

In fact, its people like Bush, who you claim to be similar to the ethics committees, who is keeping research back.

There are literally tons of organizations who serve as whistle blowers in research.

Whistle blowing on stem cell research is totally unfounded, and is mainly done by politicians and religious people. You and I are in agreement that experiments should not be done on living clones for example, but embryos, for example, are not yet living humans. Stem cell research on the embryonic level is totally acceptable by most scientists in most countries.

Scientific Ethics has made great leaps and bounds within the last few decades. Theres a reason why no such moral-breaking experiments have been done in the recent past. Psychological experiments done on children are some of the reasons why ethics committees came into existance.

[Omnaka]

Ethics plays a huge role in what you can do research wise. I know because I am involved in it on a daily basis. The reason I am responding to this topic is because I know what research entails, and everyone is totally blowing this out of the water.

This is a serious topic for me, because its people who understand nothing about scientific research, that is keeping it back.

In fact, its people like Bush, who you claim to be similar to the ethics committees, who is keeping research back.

There are literally tons of organizations who serve as whistle blowers in research.

Whistle blowing on stem cell research is totally unfounded, and is mainly done by politicians and religious people. You and I are in agreement that experiments should not be done on living clones for example, but embryos, for example, are not yet living humans. Stem cell research on the embryonic level is totally acceptable by most scientists in most countries.

Scientific Ethics has made great leaps and bounds within the last few decades. Theres a reason why no such moral-breaking experiments have been done in the recent past. Psychological experiments done on children are some of the reasons why ethics committees came into existance.

At what point do you and your Coleagues Deem Life is in Existance?

When it gets its first breath of Air?

LOve Omnaka

[Cimber]

At what point do you and your Coleagues Deem Life is in Existance?

When it gets its first breath of Air?

LOve Omnaka

I personally don't specialize in research with stem cells or embryology. I specialize in cancer research.

However, for the sake of this topic lets put this into perspective. Using real world issues that will arise with potential clones

Embryonic stem cells are taken from embryos that are about 5 days old after fertilization.

Its not until the 6th week that brain activity can be observed.

Organogensis occurs during the 7th week and after the 8th week, the fetal stage begins.

Taking all this into account, an embryo is not human life in terms of stem cell research because it has to be conscious. An embryo 5 days after fertilization doesn't even have major organs or brain activity.

[Omnaka]

I personally don't specialize in research with stem cells or embryology. I specialize in cancer research.

However, for the sake of this topic lets put this into perspective. Using real world issues that will arise with potential clones

Embryonic stem cells are taken from embryos that are about 5 days old after fertilization.

Its not until the 6th week that brain activity can be observed.

Organogensis occurs during the 7th week and after the 8th week, the fetal stage begins.

Taking all this into account, an embryo is not human life in terms of stem cell research because it has to be conscious. An embryo 5 days after fertilization doesn't even have major organs or brain activity.

And do you believe Consciousness can exist outside Of A Human Brain?

How would You feel If You found Out That It can rxist outside a Brain, and Or Inside an Egg, for example, That the thing you stick needles in to can actually feel , That the aborted Baby can actually Feel everything that has happened to it,Ans said about it Why is it Most only think something can feel if it creis out.

THis is what is missing In scienceImo, Once they learn about spirit and consciousness, It wil be a whole nother ball Game, with the emphisis on Life Love and spirit, You think this can not happen But once it is , And It will be found out, Ethics will be on the individual, and what he does and thinks, Now thinking That an embrio has no consciousness, gives scientists free reign to Do anything To a living Entity.

Would you feel Bad if you found this out?

Are You Positive Consciousness can not Live In an embrio?

Do you believe in Reincarnation?

If science Is going to err I think It should err Without Hurting another life form.

Yes spirit has feelings.

Love Omnaka

Spirit is pure Consciousness, And does not need a brain to Think and or Feel

[KissMyTwinkies]

I'm curious when God told you that "science is playing god without the proper degree."

About two years ago.

Does god speak to you regularly?

If I pray and call on Father , He will come. (Manifest), But I know Father and Mother( God) are with Me always.

and what happens to a clone without this god given spirit?

I answered That in the opening Post.

Love Omnaka

Are you hallucinating Omnaka?

[HAJiME]

An embryo is life, but so are the cells that made it. Where do you draw the line? Birth is a nice clean line as far as I'm concerned.

Personally, I think it's fairly bloody obvious that as a creature grows in the womb it grows in consciousness... But since a 3 year old child has the same mental ability as a Macaw, I'm not too worried about something that hasn't even been born yet.

It's not got a lot to do with "can it feel it" to me. You poor salt on a slug and it can CLEARLY feel it, but it's not weeping seeing it's "life flash before it's eyes" or considering death. It can't do that. It has no idea what the hell is going on. It hurts, but the pain animals with higher cognitive ability feel is completely different. When we are in pain we don't just react to the pain, we react emotionally based on other reasoning. Pain is no more than a survival mechanism. It's your body going "if you keep doing whatever it is you're doing you're going to die and not pass on your genes!"

When any being is first conceived, it is no more "aware" of the world around it than the cells that made it.

Spirit is pure Consciousness, And does not need a brain to Think and or Feel

This is a conclusion you have reached without any evidence, at all. Not just lack of scientific proof, but a lack of religious texts to support it too.

We can prove that the embryo doesn't have any brain activity that we can measure, yet. Like Cimber explained. So you have no reason to think that it would have a consciousness, if tests show it does not. They only thing we KNOW as being consciousness is brain activity. Until we know otherwise, you're wrong.

Anyway, clones not having souls? Sounds like a very Islamic thing to say to me. http://discuss.riseforislam.com/index.php?showtopic=429

Edited April 28, 2008 by HAJiME

[Omnaka]

An embryo is life, but so are the cells that made it. Where do you draw the line? Birth is a nice clean line as far as I'm concerned.

Personally, I think it's fairly bloody obvious that as a creature grows in the womb it grows in consciousness... But since a 3 year old child has the same mental ability as a Macaw, I'm not too worried about something that hasn't even been born yet.

It's not got a lot to do with "can it feel it" to me. You poor salt on a slug and it can CLEARLY feel it, but it's not weeping seeing it's "life flash before it's eyes" or considering death. It can't do that. It has no idea what the hell is going on. It hurts, but the pain animals with higher cognitive ability feel is completely different. When we are in pain we don't just react to the pain, we react emotionally based on other reasoning. Pain is no more than a survival mechanism. It's your body going "if you keep doing whatever it is you're doing you're going to die and not pass on your genes!"

When any being is first conceived, it is no more "aware" of the world around it than the cells that made it.

This is a conclusion you have reached without any evidence, at all. Not just lack of scientific proof, but a lack of religious texts to support it too.

We can prove that the embryo doesn't have any brain activity that we can measure, yet. Like Cimber explained. So you have no reason to think that it would have a consciousness, if tests show it does not. They only thing we KNOW as being consciousness is brain activity. Until we know otherwise, you're wrong.

Anyway, clones not having souls? Sounds like a very Islamic thing to say to me. http://discuss.riseforislam.com/index.php?showtopic=429When any being is first conceived, it is no more "aware" of the world around it than the cells that made it.[/color]"://http://discuss.riseforislam.com/ind...olor]"[/b]

"

Spirit is pure consciousness, and enters the womb at conception, What you said is pure speculation, what I said I have learned frm Heavenly Father and Going to the Spirit world, seeing where aborted Baby spirits dwell, and felt their Pain, all this I have witnessed. call me anything you want, after this life you will know what I say is true.

I feel for you and any other s who have had a hand in this and justified it with science or what you percieve.

You judge your own spirit After this life, God won't do it, your spirit will be self acountable, with no body to lie for or justify for.

I feel for you bro. You Reep what you sow.

Love Omnaka

Edited April 29, 2008 by Omnaka

[The Silver Thong]

So is it your postition then, that breaking the 10 commandments is not wrong? Is it wrong to kill and rape? If your assertion is that man can do no wring because God knwos we are doing it and asw it before our creation, does that mean war is good?

I don't believe god wrote the ten commandments ! Man wrote them as a social tool. The ten comandments are what I would call common sense. Not devine intervention

[archangel_josh]

Father said, "Science Is Playing God With out a Proper Degree". (I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be Quoting God)

What this means is Because Father and Mother (God) Put The spirit in the body, He will not Put one in A clone, And it will be doomed to Failier. Without a spirit which has been properly Unconditionally loved By God First , If another spirit jumps in to this body , it would inherently Be doomed to be Evil

There are spirits Which after this life, Shied away from Fathers love Light, which will stay earth bound untill the Last day, These spirits, would be the likely candidates For jumping in to a Clone.

Please don't get Me wrong, THere are Good Earth bound Spirits also, that interact with Us every day, But after Death, These sirits which can Travel between Both worlds Heaven and Earth, Have after Death of the body, Joind with Fathers love Light. Many will backpeddle away from this light ot of shame or fear.

Those who pass through the veil, can pass back To continue Loving his bro On Earth as well as in Heaven.

(Funny My disclaimer is longer than my OP)

Love Omnaka

The fact that we can clone PROVES that there is no soul!

While it's interesting that you think such things, I find it dangerous that you think that cloned people are 'evil' and 'doomed to failure'.

I'm sure that there are cloned people out there on Earth today - no real evidence, but many claims and it's quite easy to do for our most advanced scientists.

You need to remember that clones are people too - they just have to same genetic code as their donor. They are born just like you and I, however they are a new individual. They just have to same genetic make up and they look the same as their donor did when they were a baby. They will be raised differently, in a different time and will have different experiences.

Cloned people will have morals, will laugh and will cry. There is nothing special about a clone - they are a normal person like you and I.

So when cloning becomes the norm (say a baby dies in an accident and it's parents want to let the genetic code have another go at life) I hope that you won't think of them as being doomed.

The fact that we can clone people shows that there is no soul. Two of the same people having the same genetic code shows that they don't have the same 'soul'. If they are the same person, then where is the soul?

-Josh

[Omnaka]

The fact that we can clone PROVES that there is no soul!

While it's interesting that you think such things, I find it dangerous that you think that cloned people are 'evil' and 'doomed to failure'.

I'm sure that there are cloned people out there on Earth today - no real evidence, but many claims and it's quite easy to do for our most advanced scientists.

You need to remember that clones are people too - they just have to same genetic code as their donor. They are born just like you and I, however they are a new individual. They just have to same genetic make up and they look the same as their donor did when they were a baby. They will be raised differently, in a different time and will have different experiences.

Cloned people will have morals, will laugh and will cry. There is nothing special about a clone - they are a normal person like you and I.

So when cloning becomes the norm (say a baby dies in an accident and it's parents want to let the genetic code have another go at life) I hope that you won't think of them as being doomed.

The fact that we can clone people shows that there is no soul. Two of the same people having the same genetic code shows that they don't have the same 'soul'. If they are the same person, then where is the soul?

-Josh

I have yet to meet or see a cloned person. Maybe cause there aren't any.

There is one spirit per body. Father (God) wont put one in a clone.

Man is not Enlightened enough to make a Spirit to run a body.

This is a mute conversation, cause It won't ever get out of the lab, Then you can blame scientists for how they treat their creation, not me Or God. we have nothing to do with it.and won't have anything to do with it.

If science treats it anything like they do other animals and research, You can blame them .

But again, Man knows nothing about Creating spirit , which makes a mans Body tick, Mute point, aint gonna happen

God wont put a spirit in a clone.

Enjoy your argument, I'm done with this one, I have stated in many posts what Father(God) has told me, If you don't believe me Thats fine also.

Love Omnaka

[Nik Xues]

if i remember correctly.

most cells self clone [Mitosis]

now some cells like the zygotes split in half [Meiosis]

these latter cells [eggs and sperm] are ment to blend with another half {fertilise} to create a source cell which will become an embryo

now i beleive in some odd cases in nature A-sexual reproduction uses a cloned cell to form an embryo.

if there is any animal that self clones [A-sexual] im sure that its child has a soul. remember mankind is an animal so if you cloned him his clone would have a soul.

remember pride is for fools and truth is for men.

[Omnaka]

if i remember correctly.

most cells self clone [Mitosis]

now some cells like the zygotes split in half [Meiosis]

these latter cells [eggs and sperm] are ment to blend with another half {fertilise} to create a source cell which will become an embryo

now i beleive in some odd cases in nature A-sexual reproduction uses a cloned cell to form an embryo.

if there is any animal that self clones [A-sexual] im sure that its child has a soul. remember mankind is an animal so if you cloned him his clone would have a soul.

remember pride is for fools and truth is for men.

As Iv'e said, What I shared with you is what The Father of This Universe has shared with Me.

I did not tell you Father would not put a Spirit in a Human Clone as a Source of pride.

I was Just sharing What Father told me.

If your truth says diferent than Father (God) Then thats your truth.

My truth is as Fathers, No spirit will be put in a Human clone.

Iam a Spirit First, An eternal mspirit just like My Father, Iam a man second, and only for a Short while.

This is the truth.

My original post did not refer to animals reproducing in nature. and if an animal reproduces by itself, it is because Father and Mother (GOD) made it that way.

Again My post is about Humans cloning Humans and spirit , which Humans Have no clue.(SPIRIT) (Some do) But scientists and science has a Long way to Go

Love Omnaka

[Thisisnotmyname]

if i remember correctly.

most cells self clone [Mitosis]

now some cells like the zygotes split in half [Meiosis]

these latter cells [eggs and sperm] are ment to blend with another half {fertilise} to create a source cell which will become an embryo

now i beleive in some odd cases in nature A-sexual reproduction uses a cloned cell to form an embryo.

if there is any animal that self clones [A-sexual] im sure that its child has a soul. remember mankind is an animal so if you cloned him his clone would have a soul.

remember pride is for fools and truth is for men.

If I remember correctly, most (if not all) organisms that reproduce truly asexually are not very complex. Bacteria are a good example. I could be wrong, but I really don't think there is anything of the complexity level of an ANIMAL that reproduces asexually.

[Nik Xues]

bacteria dont count in the a-sex because it does not have an embryonic stage.

insects and reptiles are the mainstay.theres a story about a komodo somewhere

although it could explain virgin births [if the child was female].

omnaka no worries just like to debate.

i beleive even a machine can receive a soul. if i can truelly peg humanity i should be able to copy my soul.

[HAJiME]

"

Spirit is pure consciousness, and enters the womb at conception, What you said is pure speculation, what I said I have learned frm Heavenly Father and Going to the Spirit world, seeing where aborted Baby spirits dwell, and felt their Pain, all this I have witnessed. call me anything you want, after this life you will know what I say is true.

I feel for you and any other s who have had a hand in this and justified it with science or what you percieve.

You judge your own spirit After this life, God won't do it, your spirit will be self acountable, with no body to lie for or justify for.

I feel for you bro. You Reep what you sow.

Love Omnaka

If you can justify preventing saving lives filled experience, knowledge, thought and personalty - claiming those are equal to a fetus, then I think that you are sick.

I do not justify anything with bloody "science". I justify with moral logic.

Speculation? You hypocrite.

Edited April 30, 2008 by HAJiME

[Omnaka]

If you can justify preventing saving lives filled experience, knowledge, thought and personalty - claiming those are equal to a fetus, then I think that you are sick.

I do not justify anything with bloody "science". I justify with moral logic.

Speculation? You hypocrite.

Where does your Moral logic end, Can You justify saving an adult over a Child born with Mental impairments, Cloning "another human" To satisfy ones own grandure (EGO) or say a lost child, Or for body parts is whats sick in My Eyes.

If you find My beliefs hipocritical, Then that's Your belief. I stand by what I say and will not Go back on it.

Maybe read the rest Of the thread.

I see nothing wrong with cloning a Body part minus the Human, as in stem sell research.

But will it stop there, I think not, and Frankenstein is right around the corner, Only thing is he wont Make it out of the lab.

Love Omnaka.

[Nik Xues]

i find it sad to say.

right is simply choices that you can sleep soundly with.

as for hipocracies

in nature the weak die

yet we insist on sparing lives.

remember there is cost to everything.

and sometimes saving a life damns another.

to clone out of curiosity to learn about life. or to clone to cheapen it. this is what we must know.