Bible Questions

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

I apologize if I was being rude, Dr. Peter Venkman.

But I just realized that you came all the way from the Spirituality & Skepticism forums to the Spirituality & Beliefs forums. So, I must have offended you on those forums. Again, I apologize for being rude. I do not wish to stir up trouble. I was just asking a simple question and I wanted to know if anyone, besides skeptics knew what Heaven, Hell and Salvation were. It wasn't intended to be a judgmental post. But I find it amusing that you get so wrapped up about words like "what if" and "knowledge" as if knowledge did not exist, and as if it was a crime to make a claim statement beginning with "what if". Again, I'm sorry if I offended you. Anyone else have an answer?

What is Heaven, Hell and Salvation?

I'm just trying to get everybody to be accepting of each other's points of view man. Thats all.

My answer is, I don't know. Salvation is definitely subjective ya know? I believe I can achieve enlightenment through self examination, and following the Eightfold Path. It doesn't really deal with heaven or hell. One could call enlightenment salvation I suppose. So um yeah.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Dr. Peter Venkman

[Unorthodox Thesis]

What is the Eightfold Path?

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

What is the Eightfold Path?

Buddhism consists mainly of the Four Noble Truths. #1 there is suffering #2 There are causes for suffering. (attatchment etc...) #3 There is an end to suffering. The way to end your suffering is the 4th noble truth. The eightfold path. Consisting of #1 Right view #2 Right intention #3 right Speech #4 Right Action #5 Right Livelihood #6 Right effort #7 Right Mindfulness #8 Right Concentration.

there are also the 5 precepts, which are similar to your ten commandments. They are essentially #1 Do not take the life of anything living. #2 Don't take what isn't yours #3 Abstain from sexual misconduct and overindulgence #4 Don't Lie #5 Avoid intoxication.

This'll help more than I can if your really interested.

Here check this out

Edited December 12, 2008 by Dr. Peter Venkman

[Unorthodox Thesis]

Buddhism consists mainly of the Four Noble Truths. #1 there is suffering #2 There are causes for suffering. (attatchment etc...) #3 There is an end to suffering. The way to end your suffering is the 4th noble truth. The eightfold path. Consisting of #1 Right view #2 Right intention #3 right Speech #4 Right Action #5 Right Livelihood #6 Right effort #7 Right Mindfulness #8 Right Concentration.

there are also the 5 precepts, which are similar to your ten commandments. They are essentially #1 Do not take the life of anything living. #2 Don't take what isn't yours #3 lay Abstain from sexual misconduct and overindulgence #4 Don't Lie #5 Avoid intoxication.

This'll help more than I can if your really interested.

Here check this out

So, are you a Buddha?

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

So, are you a Buddha?

Not yet.

[Agent. Mulder]

Aww, come on! Of course, there is. There has to be. Why do people believe in it then?

why do people believe in god?

faith. hope. need.

I'm sure people who believe in Heaven and Hell could tell you reasons why they believe.

im sure they could too. but it wouldnt prove anything. other than the fact theyre looking for some hope for when they perish.

But what if heaven and hell is real? What if they aren't gimmicks? What if a few people who are simply more passionate about making money decided to

take advantage of the "threat" of the "believe or burn" paradigm? Do all Christians really believe that? I wouldn't say that.

like the Dr. said 'what if'. thats no way to live life, wondering what if somethings going to happen or not. live your life to the fullest now, not for selfish reasons to try and save you a$$ when youre deceased, incase something comes after.

and the believe or burn is a Great way to get followers. people believed Alot of what they heard back then (and still do now). so telling them "well, if you dont believe in our religion and worship 'X', then youll burn for eternity in a sea of fire. soooo, you know...just thought id tell you". great way to scare people into it. especially younger people, then have them grow up believing the same thing.

imo anyways.

[Karlis]

I apologize if I was being rude, Dr. Peter Venkman.

But I just realized that you came all the way from the Spirituality & Skepticism forums to the Spirituality & Beliefs forums. So, I must have offended you on those forums. Again, I apologize for being rude. I do not wish to stir up trouble. I was just asking a simple question and I wanted to know if anyone, besides skeptics knew what Heaven, Hell and Salvation were. Apparently, skeptics think nobody knows anything. Which does not encourage me to pursue knowledge. It wasn't intended to be a judgmental post, by the way, but your posts, however make me feel as though my questions and opinions were spoken in vain. But I find it amusing that you get so wrapped up about words like "what if" and "knowledge" as if knowledge did not exist, and as if it was a crime to make a claim statement beginning with "what if". Again, I'm sorry if I offended you. I am just a genuine pursuer of knowledge. Anyone else have an answer?

What is Heaven, Hell and Salvation?

Unorthodox, I'm not quite sure if you actually are wanting a genuine answer, or if you a have a specific agenda, but here goes:

*Heaven is the domain of God. Man after death will not be living in that heaven

*Hell has a number of specific meanings in the Bible. The most common meaning simply means the grave – a hole in the ground where one is buried. Another meaning is the second death -- eternal death. If you use the search facility of UM posts, you will find dozens of posts that clearly explain hell in detail.

*Salvation simply means “saved”. One can be saved from anything, but in the Bible the main meaning of salvation refers to receiving the gift of immortality as a spirit-being. To understand this aspect more clearly, one must come to understand that humans do not possess an immortal soul; when one dies, one is dead … end of story; until one is resurrected from the dead.

There are two forms of resurrection described in the Bible:

The first: resurrected as an immortal spirit being -- as Jesus is now -- at the first resurrection.

The second: where the dead who died without having God's Spirit within them will be resurrected as mortal human beings. These resurrected to mortal, physical bodies will live, learn and have to choose whether they wish to obey God and also be transformed into immortal spirit beings; or choose not obey God and suffer the second death for eternity. As the good book says, chooses either life or death.

I hope the above is of some value, especially regarding "salvation", which for some reason nobody seems to have addressed so far.

Karlis

[Omnaka]

Heaven, Is where our eternal spirt was created out of unconditional love, and where we hope to return.

Hell- What ever you deem nesesary as a repentant child of Unconditional love.

Salvation- If one If one sincerely repents and tries to make ammends to the one sinned against, He will know he has done all in his power to Help his eternal brother, as such will know that the creator of his spirit is pleased with the learning Of His/ Her eternal spirit child.

Infact the whole blessed Family (Holy Host) is proud of our education.God Bless you all, my Brother's and sister's.

Love Omnaka

[+Link of Hyrule]

I can spew it with the best...you are not.

Resorting to insults now, eh Z. I hope I don't cause offence here, but your quotes have never inspired me to think too highly of your research either.....

Regards,

[Karlis]

1Co 15:34 ... some have ignorance of God. I speak this to your shame.

Why not say the entire verse?

1Co 15:34

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

All right Zandore, if you like I will quote that verse back "at you".

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

As to the rest of the quotes you gave, I'll leave them out; after all, tennis is played with one ball at a time.

Game, set and match, yes?

Karlis

[Omnaka]

All right Zandore, if you like I will quote that verse back "at you".

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

As to the rest of the quotes you gave, I'll leave them out; after all, tennis is played with one ball at a time.

Game, set and match, yes?

Karlis

I could say the same. but there is no victory in it. So I won't, Unconditional love states you both are Right, as well as Relativity.

Love Omnaka

[zandore]

What is Heaven, Hell and Salvation?

Concepts to some, real places to others, goals for many more. Heaven and hell are subject to what you think they are, and what you make of them.

Myths to others.

Keep those two words in mind. "What If" exactly. i'm not going to live my life based upon a what if.

But you are living your life on a "what if".

What if Heaven, Hell and Salvation is real.

[zandore]

Resorting to insults now, eh Z.

Just stating a fact.

I hope I don't cause offence here, but your quotes have never inspired me to think too highly of your research either.....

You opinion must have changed then..

EDIT: That was coming from someone that said LUCIFER was in the OT.

BTW why did you edit your post?

All right Zandore, if you like I will quote that verse back "at you".

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Beware what you read in the Bible

Jeremiah 8:8

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Matthew 5:20

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:13

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Edited December 12, 2008 by zandore

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Concepts to some, real places to others, goals for many more. Heaven and hell are subject to what you think they are, and what you make of them.

Myths to others.

But you are living your life on a "what if".

What if Heaven, Hell and Salvation is real.

No, i'm not. you don't understand. I don't care. There is no "what if" to consider.

Clinging to your notion of heaven, or hell for that matter, is a form of attatchment. Attachment leads to suffering, etc... I just don't concern myself with the subject. Understand?

Edited December 12, 2008 by Dr. Peter Venkman

[zandore]

I am not of a religious based frame of mind. The concept of a good/evil deity no longer hold sway over me.

To those that hold a belief that "Heaven, Hell and Salvation" is real is living their life on a "what if" basis.

Some beliefs don't have any of those concepts.

There are far to many religions for one to be real/true.

Christianity is the most fractured one there has ever been.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Just stating a fact.

Though I don't exactly agree with absolutely everything Karlis wrote, he seems like he knows what he's talking about most of the time.

You opinion must have changed then..

EDIT: That was coming from someone that said LUCIFER was in the OT.

BTW why did you edit your post?

I don't see how I've changed. You and I have had countless arguments in the past, especially when you visited regularly. I don't want to turn this into a discussion on our relative merits, I was just stating my impressions. I'm sure you'd probably say something similar about myself as you did about Karlis, but that's the way things work.

As for the Lucifer issue, I already explained that in the post immediately after. It was late at night and I had just finished a long day at work. I was addressing another common argument which was that of Satan and the Devil. The Devil is not mentioned in the Old Testament, but Satan was. I edited the post because I was providing inaccurate information. It was a mistake, not a lack of information on my part. As soon as I got on the next day and saw an opposing view, I realised I had mixed my Lucifer/Satan and my Satan/Devil argument, and stated as much in the very next post after yours - HERE. I thought it was obvious why I edited it.

[A. Ben-Shema]

I've noticed that many people who are "Christians" have many misunderstandings of the Bible. If you are a Christian then one of your basics beliefs should be that the Bible is the Word of God. So, on this thread I will take any questions from anyone (Christian or other) to help those who may have been misinformed or just want more of an understanding. I'll do my best to answer them thoroughly and accurately. Objections are also welcome, anything really about the Bible.

~Apostle

How can you offer genuine Spiritual help to people when you, yourself, do not understand what the WORD of God actually means?

See (CLICK) here for a true explanation.

Shalom ~ Bob

[Apostle]

How can you offer genuine Spiritual help to people when you, yourself, do not understand what the WORD of God actually means?

See (CLICK) here for a true explanation.

Shalom ~ Bob

I don't exactly understand how your link supported your view. I probably missed something.

I never said that I would have all the answers, but I want to try and help people understand things written in the Bible, and in the process it forces me to study things and learn answers to problems/objections. Let me tell you something though - the Word of God is SO multi-faceted. I mean it is SO deep and amazing. If anything, I want to help people realize that the Bible is simply amazing, even if I don't have all the answers, I hope that it stirs people who are Christians to learn more about the Bible.

So, how can I offer help? Well, it's true that I am FAR from understanding everything there is about the Word of God. However, I do believe that the Holy Spirit has revealed somethings to me about the Word of God and maybe that bit of revelation can help someone else with their dilemma. Also, some people just take verse out of context or are just blatantly misunderstanding a verse, and I hope for these people that I would be able to help them understand.

The Bible also talks about us having answers.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

-1 Peter 3:15

Also,

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"

-2 Timothy 2:15

"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man."

-Colossians 4:6

There are answers, God's Word is not far from us, but it is near to us and we are to love it and study it. Even if I don't have an answer though, I hope it will stir someone to study it.

Hopefully that answers your question,

Apostle

[Karlis]

How can you offer genuine Spiritual help to people when you, yourself, do not understand what the WORD of God actually means?

See (CLICK) here for a true explanation.

Shalom ~ Bob

Bob, it’s been over five months since your last post on UM. There you posted an excerpt from your book, explaining a little bit about “spiritual masters”. Now you present yourself as one who has knowledge, which you claim Apostle lacks. So, may I please ask you the following?

Are you a Spiritual Master?

Have you been appointed by an inner core of Gnostics?

Have you been initiated into the Sacred Mysteries?

Kind regards,

Karlis

[Omnaka]

Bob, it’s been over five months since your last post on UM. There you posted an excerpt from your book, explaining a little bit about “spiritual masters”. Now you present yourself as one who has knowledge, which you claim Apostle lacks. So, may I please ask you the following?

Are you a Spiritual Master?

Have you been appointed by an inner core of Gnostics?

Have you been initiated into the Sacred Mysteries?

Kind regards,

Karlis

Cant speak for him, But I am One Of father and Mother's special sons, Since the birth of my eternal spirit, By Birthright, Not appointment.

, I am Initiated To the sacred enlightened Mysteries, sad To say Iam not a master in my present form, But Give the love of Father and Mother, as much as I canI have the authority Of God to do this,

It's understandable if many do not believe me. They can check my credentials after this life, and we will have a laugh over it.

Love Omnaka

[zandore]

I was addressing another common argument which was that of Satan and the Devil. The Devil is not mentioned in the Old Testament, but Satan was.

Satan is a Christian concept.

Shall we go to the source of the Christian religion....The Tanakh

A Jewish view of "satan"

Here is a bit about the Jewish view of Satan, as opposed to the Christian devil. Again, Judaism has no devil, there is no embodiment of evil who tempts us, as in Christianity. The Jewish view is very different than that portrayed by Christains. I hope this will be clear by the end of this post.

First of all, the Hebrew word satan (sin-tet-nun sofit) means an adversary or accuser. It is used this way in Numbers 22:22. "And G-d’s anger was kindled because he went; and the angel of the L-rd stood in the way as an *adversary* against him...." The word marked with *'s and translated as adversary is satan (actually l'satan, l' being a prefix that in the context gives the meaning "as"). Likewise in Numbers 22:32, part of the same story about Bilaam.

In I Samuel 29:4. "And the princes of the Philistines were angry with him; and the princes of the Philistines said to him, Make this fellow return, that he may go back to his place which you have appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an *adversary* to us; for how should he reconcile himself to his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?" Agian, the word translated as an adversary is satan. Later, in II Samuel 19:23. "And David said, What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah, that you should this day be *adversaries* to me?..." Again the word is satan and is translated as adversary. I could contiue through the Tanach with this. In each case, the word satan is translated as adversary.

The Jewish View of Satan

Christian View

In Christian belief, Satan is a fallen angel that has freedom of choice and rebels against God. Christians conveniently use the “Satan, to explain any evil or irrational behavior (such as non belief in Jesus as messiah or god). The New Testament is fertile ground for this outlook. It is only here that Satan becomes a wicked, rebellious angel, which quite likely evolved the character called Satan into an evil angel and enemy of God based on theological Persian dualism where such a construct is present.

Jewish View

He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God.

The Encyclopedia Judaica

The Christian claim that it was Satan who created evil is utterly fraudulent according to our Tanach:

I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7

God creates all things, not simply good things.

There isn't a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man's accuser in God's court.

Need more?

[Lt_Ripley]

Aww, come on! Of course, there is. There has to be. Why do people believe in it then?

people used to believe the earth was flat , in unicorns and cyclops' too. believing something doesn't make it real.

I'm sure people who believe in Heaven and Hell could tell you reasons why they believe.

reasons why but no proof thereof

But what if heaven and hell is real? What if they aren't gimmicks? What if a few people who are simply more passionate about making money decided to

take advantage of the "threat" of the "believe or burn" paradigm? Do all Christians really believe that? I wouldn't say that.

but they are blanch , they are. it's a reward punishment system/idea designed by man to keep people in line.

[Enigma wrapped in a puzzle]

I have a question...

Can you explain to me how anyone with a brain could possibly believe the fairy tale known as the tower of babel.

Let's explain how different races were formed by God smiting a huge tower people were trying to build to the sky. And when the tower was destroyed it fell to all ends of the earth and that children is how different races and cultures were formed!!!!!

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

[thaphantum]

I have a question...

Can you explain to me how anyone with a brain could possibly believe the fairy tale known as the tower of babel.

Let's explain how different races were formed by God smiting a huge tower people were trying to build to the sky. And when the tower was destroyed it fell to all ends of the earth and that children is how different races and cultures were formed!!!!!

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

Actually, you are WAY off base with the Tower Of Babel story (Genesis 11)...

That's an explanation of how languages were formed and people started to gather with others that spoke the same language. The tower NEVER fell to all ends of the earth, and I'm not sure where you got that from, but its NOT in the Bible. The people were scattered.

Its not clear in the English version, but in the Hebrew translation, its clear that the people were of one language and wanted to become gods. It wasn't just a tall tower that God destroyed. He destroyed it because they entertained the FALSE idea that they could ascend to heaven and become gods.

[thaphantum]

people used to believe the earth was flat , in unicorns and cyclops' too. believing something doesn't make it real.

Not believing doesn't make it false either.

FACT: Pandas, Mountain Gorillas, and a few other animals were considered to be mythological creatures until the late 1700s and early 1800s.

reasons why but no proof thereof

Proof lies in interpretation of the evidence. What is proof to me, may not be proof to you. Life is proof to me that there is a God. To some people it isn't. Its all the proof I need, so it just depends on how you choose to view the evidence.

but they are blanch , they are. it's a reward punishment system/idea designed by man to keep people in line.

Any PROOF that they were designed by man and not inspired by God?

Edited December 14, 2008 by thaphantum