Telekinesis

[Atheist God]

But is it not true that to the people believing, this is not just assumption?

It doesn't matter what your beliefs may be saying that something has to be true just because people say it is is an assumption bottom line. You assume some cases are true and I am simply pointing out that there is no evidence for this... belief is not evidence.

[Sporkling]

Yes I understand you are just pointing out what you think. I am also pointing out what I think. I think that evidence is not everything (not to go against you though) this is my belief.

[Atheist God]

Yes I understand you are just pointing out what you think. I am also pointing out what I think. I think that evidence is not everything (not to go against you though) this is my belief.

No I am pointing out an obvious fact that I know not what i think... Of all the claims of TK made there is no evidence at all, so again what you believe or want to believe is not the issue.

You can go ahead and think what you want to but evidence is everything or at least it is when you are trying to confirm the existence of something especially something of this nature. Your belief stems from the fact there is no evidence and is clearly nothing more then a cop out by someone who can't provide anything except their word.

[CallSignWolf]

Telekinesis is make believe

[Sporkling]

No I am pointing out an obvious fact that I know not what i think... Of all the claims of TK made there is no evidence at all, so again what you believe or want to believe is not the issue.

You can go ahead and think what you want to but evidence is everything or at least it is when you are trying to confirm the existence of something especially something of this nature. Your belief stems from the fact there is no evidence and is clearly nothing more then a cop out by someone who can't provide anything except their word.

I don't feel the need of proving anything to you or to anyone else. I believe because I believe. My belief stems from the fact there is no evidence. True very true. Because of the fact I don't believe in science. People can provide more than their word but still you need to believe what they say first instead of thinking someone owes you proof. I do not owe you any proof. And nobody owes you any either. Its a matter of belief when you are talking about the paranormal. If you do not believe, then there is nothing I can do.

[eight bits]

There are so many claims from all over the place. Surely some of them are valid.

You've said something like that before. Why do you think that?

Take dreamland's report. No question that it was valid. Tom and I (and I hope others, too) verified it for ourselves. The bottlecap moves, exactly as dreamland described.

Where there is some difference is in the interpretation of the report. And there are really only two theories: gravity versus another power of the universe to be named later.

A claim, I think, is a report coupled with an interpretation. Something happened and here is why it happened.

So, people all over the world are reading us. Potentially, reports could come in from all over the world that the bottlecap moves. Great, there was no issue about the report's truth anyway.

But what of the interpretation? Some people are going to claim gravity, some people are going to claim another power. Both theories will have "many claims from all over the place," but the claims for one of the theories must be invalid, since one interpretation excludes the other.

I fully agree with you that "I do not believe X, so I know there is no X" is not a scientific argument, regardless of any scientific consensus regarding the status of X. But "Many people claim X, so X is true" cannot be a valid argument unless there was a general consensus about X.

It may not be a valid argument even then, but that doesn't matter, because it can't get over even this hurdle.

[Sporkling]

This hurdle is not a hurdle because its only one who cannot get past the hurdle.

[eight bits]

This hurdle is not a hurdle because its only one who cannot get past the hurdle.

Thank you for sharing. So are you going to do the bottlecap thing or not?

[Sporkling]

explain the process again.

[eight bits]

Here's dreamland's method:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=2144522

Basically: get a fair-sized book (I used a slightly oversized paperback), place it on a firm and more-or-less level surface. Place a cylindical bottlecap on the book, so that it can roll if the spirit moves it, so to speak. I used the bottlecap from some bottled water (cylindical shape, ridges so it sits nicely while waiting, plastic).

You place one of your hands on the book. And then you think or whatever you want to get the bottlecap to roll, except no touching the bottlecap, blowing on it, etc., obviously.

Success is that the bottlecap rolls 4 or 5 cm., and then retraces its path.

[drakonwick]

Here's dreamland's method:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=2144522

Basically: get a fair-sized book (I used a slightly oversized paperback), place it on a firm and more-or-less level surface. Place a cylindical bottlecap on the book, so that it can roll if the spirit moves it, so to speak. I used the bottlecap from some bottled water (cylindical shape, ridges so it sits nicely while waiting, plastic).

You place one of your hands on the book. And then you think or whatever you want to get the bottlecap to roll, except no touching the bottlecap, blowing on it, etc., obviously.

Success is that the bottlecap rolls 4 or 5 cm., and then retraces its path.

It's interesting how well this method works! I tried several more times with different surfaces; I pretty much got the same effect as eight bits has stated. Placing the bottle cap on the really thick, solid counter top, did not work well.

Using a good sized paper back book seems to work the best.

Regards,

Tom

Edited February 14, 2008 by Vanquish

[Atheist God]

I don't feel the need of proving anything to you or to anyone else. I believe because I believe. My belief stems from the fact there is no evidence. True very true. Because of the fact I don't believe in science. People can provide more than their word but still you need to believe what they say first instead of thinking someone owes you proof. I do not owe you any proof. And nobody owes you any either. Its a matter of belief when you are talking about the paranormal. If you do not believe, then there is nothing I can do.

I never said anyone owed me anything, however if people are going to make claims I need more then their word.

Fact is I don't need to believe what people say to look for evidence and I have. If you don't believe in scientific method to achieve progress and make new discovery then you should throw you computer in the trash, move into the wilderness and live off the land w/o any of the luxuries you enjoy today.

I have never told anyone what they can or cannot believe nor will I however I will give my opinion about those beliefs and why they are flawed. Perhaps once you get older and realize that people cannot in fact do as they claim your views will change.

If something exists there has to be evidence of some kind.

[Nik Xues]

and evidence can be measured .... somehow

question is how?

[Atheist God]

and evidence can be measured .... somehow

question is how?

While we may not be able to specifically isolate the mechanics at work such abilities like for example TK could be demonstrated in a lab setting under strict controls to ensure that hoaxing is not a possibility. You could from here measure the extent of the ability and begin to study what the possible mechanics behind such an ability are.

[Sporkling]

While we may not be able to specifically isolate the mechanics at work such abilities like for example TK could be demonstrated in a lab setting under strict controls to ensure that hoaxing is not a possibility. You could from here measure the extent of the ability and begin to study what the possible mechanics behind such an ability are.

This is an excellent statement. It shows you think before posting.

[DfizzleShizzle]

Hehe, even I will admit Chris Angel is an illusionist...He's one of the people who makes psychics look bad...He just adds to our already horrible image....THANKS CHRIS, FOR GETTING RICH, AND MAKING ALL THE REAL PSYCHICS AND PSIONS TO LOOK MORE LIKE IDOTS!!! LETS ALL THROW HIM A CONGRATULATORY BRUNCH!!!

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Hehe, even I will admit Chris Angel is an illusionist...He's one of the people who makes psychics look bad...He just adds to our already horrible image....THANKS CHRIS, FOR GETTING RICH, AND MAKING ALL THE REAL PSYCHICS AND PSIONS TO LOOK MORE LIKE IDOTS!!! LETS ALL THROW HIM A CONGRATULATORY BRUNCH!!!

I like Criss. He points how fraudulent psychics are. He calls them out.

[DfizzleShizzle]

No, he IS one of the fradulent psychics....It makes the genuine ones look like kooks...

[DfizzleShizzle]

No, he IS one of the fradulent psychics....It makes the genuine ones look like kooks...

[DfizzleShizzle]

No, he IS one of the fradulent psychics....It makes the genuine ones look like kooks...

[Atheist God]

No, he IS one of the fradulent psychics....It makes the genuine ones look like kooks...

Actually he says he's not the real deal and what he does in an act... he can replicate supposed abilities with simple trickery and special effect. Eric is right when he say the Criss points out how fraudulent other people are on TV by admitting he has no special abilities. To take it one step further he also plays off of how gullible people like you are.

[Sporkling]

I don't care what he has or does not have. Why should I? He is he I am I

[eight bits]

He is he I am I

Another good one is from the classic Flowers for Algernon:

That which is is that which is not is not

Anyway, how you coming with the bottle cap thing?

[Sporkling]

Yes it turned out well. But it did not work if I put it flat. I had to put it on its rounded side.

By the way, have you tried using a leaf?

Edited February 16, 2008 by Electrokinesis is me

[eight bits]

Yes it turned out well. But it did not work if I put it flat. I had to put it on its rounded side.

Yes, that's right.

By the way, have you tried using a leaf?

There are not many leaves around here these days. But tell me more, and I can try in a few months.

I owe you (from a promise made in another thread) whistling in a graveyard. I did this about 48 hours ago, and here is my report.

I whistled Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star repeatedly while walking past and through the local graveyard, as requested. (Harder than it sounds, continuous whistling makes for funny breathing when walking in chilly air.) No abnormal events have happened then or since.

I envy the really stunning imagery in primordial's post about his(?) graveyard experience:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=2150394

I can't report anything like that, but it was a beautiful, sunny day here, and that is something at this time of the year.

Graveyards honor life. Ours has graves that span almost two centuries. To walk through it is to immerse yourself in the possibilities of life.

Some graves have lavish monuments, others are barely marked at all. It would be nice to say that it is all the same in death, whether someone was rich or poor in life, but it is not. With a meter of accumulated snow, only the richer folks' names are visible today. The earth will have to be reborn before full equality among the dead reigns again.

Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star apparently didn't stir anything, but I hope it didn't sound out-of-place, either. Better yet, I hope it evoked a friendly memory or two if anybody happened to be listening.