psi-balls

[(KP)]

Ok then tell me why did so many people laugh at the "science thing" he was inventing? It seems that they were laughing at a science expriment.

Yeah, they were, till he turned the light on.

Turn the light on for us please. Silence the skeptics.

Oh thats right....

We talk about logic a lot in here as being the dis-creditor of psionics and other phenomena. But I think it's important to note that logic is fuzzy at best on the fringes of science, even today. For instance, Stephen Hawking has himself admitted to not really grasping the enormity of subjects like black holes and cosmology, and this sentiment has been echoed by many others in the field.

We all believe a lot of things on trust, rather than personal experimentation. Before you get angry or defensive, just think about it for a moment. Have you ever seen an atom? No, of course not. You've seen what you are told are direct effects of atoms and atomic radiation. Sure, it's not much of a stretch to trust in science there.

What about neutrinos? Have you ever seen a neutrino? No, of course not. They're so small, but so plentiful, that there are trillions of them passing through our very bodies every day without leaving a trace. BUT, they apparently do have mass, but nobody knows how much really, because they're also theoretically the cause of a collapsing sun's outer layers being blown into space. Now, are you going to believe in a physicist when he or she tells you that there are neutrinos passing through your body? Sure, why not? They're scientists, after all, so they should know. Except they DON'T know. They THINK they're right, but could be completely wrong. Yet the world at large just accepts neutrinos. Sometimes, actually a LOT of the time, we accept things without actually knowing ourselves that they're true. Governments operate on that principle pretty often as well.

Look at dark matter. Apparently it makes up a vast majority of the universe. Most cosmologists and physicists acknowledge its existence. Why? Have they seen dark matter? Have they tested it? No, certainly not. They're not sure what it is, actually. Sure, a lot of people are pretty sure they know, but those people are busy disagreeing with each other entirely at the moment. Hey, wait a second. Why do we even think that there's dark matter? Well, we think there's dark matter because the math used in calculating the energy output from the completely theoretical big bang shows that we're missing a lot of mass in the universe. Well jeez, maybe we're just wrong about a lot of things in the field of astronomy and there is no dark matter at all. Well, who knows? I certainly don't, but I'm certainly not going to go saying that any of these scientists are full of crap or fulfilling foolish pre-adolescent fantasies. I certainly wouldn't call a physicist a condescending name if he or she suggested to me that neutrinos might be the primary substance of dark matter.

My point is that we all accept a lot of things on day to day life without really digging for proof. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm not saying that these people really have psionic powers, but I am saying that people are being a little too harsh about laughing in their faces.

We have experiments, videos of experiments, many reputable people vouch for the experiments, to prove the atom, the nucleus, the electrons, protons.. all of it. On the other hand, we do not have any of these things for the things being discussed here. When there is, people will take it more seriously.

The things in science have been passed through very stringent tests to even become accepted like you are saying. Other things, like discussed here, have not. That is why we use science to help us disprove. Because to become scientifically accepted, it does have to be passed through these tests. Sure some make it through and turn out to be wrong, but look at all the amazing things we have because of science, that was true. And no telling the amount of crap that has been disproved. Though errors are always possible, we are humans after all.

If there is, ANYONE, out there who can move things with their mind. WHY has no one stepped up to any reputable scientists like say.. at a university, or something of that sort. And PROVED that they can do these things?

I know if I had the ability to move things with my mind, I would get a hold of everyone possible to prove that it is possible. I would be going to universities, mailing people, all sorts of things. I would be famous by now.

Yet NO ONE has done this, no one has proved anything!

If you can do it, for gods sake go to your local university and show them there! They will know how to get a hold of people so we can put this crap to rest once and for all.

Edited March 4, 2008 by the sky is falling!

[Papaver]

If you can do it, for gods sake go to your local university and show them there! They will know how to get a hold of people so we can put this crap to rest once and for all.

Cue excuses...

[eight bits]

An additional problem has recently arisen with the bottlecap trick. Its original proponent, dreamland, has disclosed on another thread

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=2179115

that he has a decade of experience in stage magic.

Given the elementary nature of the book-and-bottlecap demonstration, it is simply impossible that a seasoned student of magic could have been unaware that it was an illusion, and not paranormal.

There really is no remaining point in filming this.

[Future]

Has anybody seen that really cool trick where you make an "empty" soda can fill up? I freaked out some of my friends with it, but especially when I did it with a beer can.

[bleedingelite]

Yeah, they were, till he turned the light on.

Turn the light on for us please. Silence the skeptics.

Oh thats right....

We have experiments, videos of experiments, many reputable people vouch for the experiments, to prove the atom, the nucleus, the electrons, protons.. all of it. On the other hand, we do not have any of these things for the things being discussed here. When there is, people will take it more seriously.

The things in science have been passed through very stringent tests to even become accepted like you are saying. Other things, like discussed here, have not. That is why we use science to help us disprove. Because to become scientifically accepted, it does have to be passed through these tests. Sure some make it through and turn out to be wrong, but look at all the amazing things we have because of science, that was true. And no telling the amount of crap that has been disproved. Though errors are always possible, we are humans after all.

If there is, ANYONE, out there who can move things with their mind. WHY has no one stepped up to any reputable scientists like say.. at a university, or something of that sort. And PROVED that they can do these things?

I know if I had the ability to move things with my mind, I would get a hold of everyone possible to prove that it is possible. I would be going to universities, mailing people, all sorts of things. I would be famous by now.

Yet NO ONE has done this, no one has proved anything!

If you can do it, for gods sake go to your local university and show them there! They will know how to get a hold of people so we can put this crap to rest once and for all.

Yes, but the fact remains that we, as non-scientists, basically just take their (scientists') word on it ("it" being pretty much any topic out there). Ask them to show you an atom, or to demonstrate the effects of a neutrino. They're credible sources because we believe in them and we believe that they've done the experiments and we tend to just totally ignore the fact that most of what we take as being given truths about reality set in stone are actually known by the experimenters to be things that seem to be true about reality but which could be shown to be completely false at any given moment.

And it doesn't just extend to science. How could you possibly know for a fact that anything that we are told on the news or by the government is true? It's simply not possible. We take their word for it. We see a video of Osama bin Laden talking about all kinds of bullcrap and we don't say "Hey, how do I know that's really him?" or "How do I know that this guy isn't just working for our government to play the heel in a complicated plot?" We see and and we, for the most part, believe it. It's possible that almost nothing that our officials tell us is true. It's possible. Do most of us question every single thing that we're told by the news stations about what's happening wherever? No, of course not. That would be edging pretty close to paranoid insanity.

If my friend comes up to me on Monday and says "Man, I had a threesome with two Miller Lite girls on Saturday night. You should have come!" am I going to say "That's bull! I want proof!"? No, I'm going to slap him on the back and tell him good job. Why? Is it because it's something that's just not important enough for me to care about? Partially. Just like I don't see why you care that these younger kids think that they have psionic powers. Why is it such a big deal to you. Do I not question my friend because he's my friend and I trust him? Yeah, partially for that reason too. I don't want to be that irritating jerk who wants to see proof to validate everything that anybody says. I'll just pick and choose what I believe in on my own terms, just like everybody should.

I don't think heartagram has powers. But I can't say for sure that he doesn't, and I don't mind that he thinks he does. Hey, good for him, you know? Life for him is probably all the more interesting because of it.

And if he makes this video, and it's successful and shows him doing his thing, I'm still not going to be one hundred percent convinced, and I'm sure that none of you will be either. At best, it will be a neat video that shows something that might possibly be telekinesis. You guys are going to give him crap either way.

And if he makes this v

[eight bits]

You guys are going to give him crap either way

If H does what he said he is going to do, then I hope not. There is precedent for the korps expressing respect for "stepping up," even if they remain unconvinced. Before your time, but it has happened (Tanenisis' "readings").

[Atheist God]

If H does what he said he is going to do, then I hope not. There is precedent for the korps expressing respect for "stepping up," even if they remain unconvinced. Before your time, but it has happened (Tanenisis' "readings").

It has happened however not very often.

If the video shows up here on Friday while I may not be convinced I ill give respect where respect is due and have before.

[(KP)]

Yes, but the fact remains that we, as non-scientists, basically just take their (scientists') word on it ("it" being pretty much any topic out there). Ask them to show you an atom, or to demonstrate the effects of a neutrino. They're credible sources because we believe in them and we believe that they've done the experiments and we tend to just totally ignore the fact that most of what we take as being given truths about reality set in stone are actually known by the experimenters to be things that seem to be true about reality but which could be shown to be completely false at any given moment.

And you're saying that a reputable scientist wouldn't be able to conclude if something was truly magic or not? If there is real magic, then clearly they would have no possible way of disproving it. Just putting up youtube videos and crap on messages boards saying you are magic isn't good enough, and of course no one can prove or disprove themselves that way. I don't think I have to explain why. The things that are actually "set in stone" as you say are pretty much true. Most of the things that they turn out to be wrong about are actually theories, and not "set in stone" as you so put it.

And it doesn't just extend to science. How could you possibly know for a fact that anything that we are told on the news or by the government is true? It's simply not possible. We take their word for it. We see a video of Osama bin Laden talking about all kinds of bullcrap and we don't say "Hey, how do I know that's really him?" or "How do I know that this guy isn't just working for our government to play the heel in a complicated plot?" We see and and we, for the most part, believe it. It's possible that almost nothing that our officials tell us is true. It's possible. Do most of us question every single thing that we're told by the news stations about what's happening wherever? No, of course not. That would be edging pretty close to paranoid insanity.

What does this have to do with magic? The government and a reputable scientific academy are too completely different things. I'm not sure where you are going with this one. Scientific findings have certain criteria to match, things the government say, does not. And you are right, I do believe they lie a lot to further their means.

If my friend comes up to me on Monday and says "Man, I had a threesome with two Miller Lite girls on Saturday night. You should have come!" am I going to say "That's bull! I want proof!"? No, I'm going to slap him on the back and tell him good job. Why? Is it because it's something that's just not important enough for me to care about? Partially. Just like I don't see why you care that these younger kids think that they have psionic powers. Why is it such a big deal to you. Do I not question my friend because he's my friend and I trust him? Yeah, partially for that reason too. I don't want to be that irritating jerk who wants to see proof to validate everything that anybody says. I'll just pick and choose what I believe in on my own terms, just like everybody should.

Yeah well to pick and choose, the more intelligent people don't just go on "faith" they need something to back up what they believe and don't believe.

And again, I'm not sure what you are trying to say about your friend. Again what does that have to do with a reputable scientific academy, and some kid?

The reason this matters is because magic like being described here simply does not exist. And if it did, like I said, someone would have "stepped up".

I don't think heartagram has powers. But I can't say for sure that he doesn't, and I don't mind that he thinks he does. Hey, good for him, you know? Life for him is probably all the more interesting because of it.

I suppose, or him believing things that aren't true could lead to him developing other problems later on in life. I'm not sure what type of people believe things like this, but they apparently have some issues that needs to be resolved. Just like a schizophrenic person doesn't need to go through life believing his friend Greg is real, someone needs to tell him he isn't. Otherwise he will just have problems throughout life because of it, and could possibly be humiliated. No telling what could come of it. Just like a kid going around saying he is magic, and truly believes he is. People will think less of him.

And if he makes this video, and it's successful and shows him doing his thing, I'm still not going to be one hundred percent convinced, and I'm sure that none of you will be either. At best, it will be a neat video that shows something that might possibly be telekinesis. You guys are going to give him crap either way.

And if he makes this v

He cannot be successful because it IS a video. Like I said, if you are magic, go to someplace where they can without a doubt, say that you have magical powers. You can find some pretty crazy videos and tricks on the internet. I mean take the top magicians for example, many people probably believe they truly are magic. When actually, they aren't and it is all just very well put together illusions. I'm sure if I was standing right in front of some of them, I wouldn't be able to pick out how they did it. Especially over a video. But if they truly were performing magic, why not have a team of experts come in, take out all the possible things that could aid you, then have you do it. Then I would believe. But they do not do that, because they are professional and they know they are not magic, they are simply illusionists. Tricksters. Same as anyone who posts videos claiming to be magic is. Like I said, go to a reputable scientific academy. Then we will have proof.

(but this would have been done long ago if magic did exist. People like to believe in a fairy tale world though, probably because the real world is so damn sh**ty.)

Edited March 4, 2008 by the sky is falling!

[DfizzleShizzle]

And you're saying that a reputable scientist wouldn't be able to conclude if something was truly magic or not? If there is real magic, then clearly they would have no possible way of disproving it. Just putting up youtube videos and crap on messages boards saying you are magic isn't good enough, and of course no one can prove or disprove themselves that way. I don't think I have to explain why. The things that are actually "set in stone" as you say are pretty much true. Most of the things that they turn out to be wrong about are actually theories, and not "set in stone" as you so put it.

What does this have to do with magic? The government and a reputable scientific academy are too completely different things. I'm not sure where you are going with this one. Scientific findings have certain criteria to match, things the government say, does not. And you are right, I do believe they lie a lot to further their means.

Yeah well to pick and choose, the more intelligent people don't just go on "faith" they need something to back up what they believe and don't believe.

And again, I'm not sure what you are trying to say about your friend. Again what does that have to do with a reputable scientific academy, and some kid?

The reason this matters is because magic like being described here simply does not exist. And if it did, like I said, someone would have "stepped up".

I suppose, or him believing things that aren't true could lead to him developing other problems later on in life. I'm not sure what type of people believe things like this, but they apparently have some issues that needs to be resolved. Just like a schizophrenic person doesn't need to go through life believing his friend Greg is real, someone needs to tell him he isn't. Otherwise he will just have problems throughout life because of it, and could possibly be humiliated. No telling what could come of it. Just like a kid going around saying he is magic, and truly believes he is. People will think less of him.

He cannot be successful because it IS a video. Like I said, if you are magic, go to someplace where they can without a doubt, say that you have magical powers. You can find some pretty crazy videos and tricks on the internet. I mean take the top magicians for example, many people probably believe they truly are magic. When actually, they aren't and it is all just very well put together illusions. I'm sure if I was standing right in front of some of them, I wouldn't be able to pick out how they did it. Especially over a video. But if they truly were performing magic, why not have a team of experts come in, take out all the possible things that could aid you, then have you do it. Then I would believe. But they do not do that, because they are professional and they know they are not magic, they are simply illusionists. Tricksters. Same as anyone who posts videos claiming to be magic is. Like I said, go to a reputable scientific academy. Then we will have proof.

(but this would have been done long ago if magic did exist. People like to believe in a fairy tale world though, probably because the real world is so damn sh**ty.)

I'm not "magic"...These are just normal abilities, that have to be awakened...

[bleedingelite]

And you're saying that a reputable scientist wouldn't be able to conclude if something was truly magic or not? If there is real magic, then clearly they would have no possible way of disproving it. Just putting up youtube videos and crap on messages boards saying you are magic isn't good enough, and of course no one can prove or disprove themselves that way. I don't think I have to explain why. The things that are actually "set in stone" as you say are pretty much true. Most of the things that they turn out to be wrong about are actually theories, and not "set in stone" as you so put it.

No, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that we accept things without seeing or demanding proof on a daily basis. Granted, we judge by the claim-makers' reputation, status and education. Yet in here, we demand proof, or we ridicule the person making the claim in a massive bombardment of challenges and namecalling in the name of upholding some kind of logical standard rather than just ignoring the person and moving on to other things.

What does this have to do with magic? The government and a reputable scientific academy are too completely different things. I'm not sure where you are going with this one. Scientific findings have certain criteria to match, things the government say, does not. And you are right, I do believe they lie a lot to further their means.

See above. They are linked in that both entities tell us things that we, for the most part, accept as reality. In this light, "There are neutrinos passing through your body by the trillions," and "There is a large, well organized evil entity focused solely on the destruction of your rights to liberty looming at large in the world" are like statements. Because none of us, the general public, are able to prove either statement, so we must rely on taking these statements and deciding for ourselves whether or not to believe them. I wasn't trying to make any commentary on whether or not our government is lying to us.

Yeah well to pick and choose, the more intelligent people don't just go on "faith" they need something to back up what they believe and don't believe.

And again, I'm not sure what you are trying to say about your friend. Again what does that have to do with a reputable scientific academy, and some kid?

The reason this matters is because magic like being described here simply does not exist. And if it did, like I said, someone would have "stepped up".

I don't understand your difficulty with the analogy. But I can assure you that everybody relies on faith to an extent, and there have been many incredibly intelligent figures throughout history who have believed in many things based on faith, especially of the spiritual kind.

I suppose, or him believing things that aren't true could lead to him developing other problems later on in life. I'm not sure what type of people believe things like this, but they apparently have some issues that needs to be resolved. Just like a schizophrenic person doesn't need to go through life believing his friend Greg is real, someone needs to tell him he isn't. Otherwise he will just have problems throughout life because of it, and could possibly be humiliated. No telling what could come of it. Just like a kid going around saying he is magic, and truly believes he is. People will think less of him.

I would put more credit into this risk that you're describing were it backed up by an accredited psychologist.

He cannot be successful because it IS a video. Like I said, if you are magic, go to someplace where they can without a doubt, say that you have magical powers. You can find some pretty crazy videos and tricks on the internet. I mean take the top magicians for example, many people probably believe they truly are magic. When actually, they aren't and it is all just very well put together illusions. I'm sure if I was standing right in front of some of them, I wouldn't be able to pick out how they did it. Especially over a video. But if they truly were performing magic, why not have a team of experts come in, take out all the possible things that could aid you, then have you do it. Then I would believe. But they do not do that, because they are professional and they know they are not magic, they are simply illusionists. Tricksters. Same as anyone who posts videos claiming to be magic is. Like I said, go to a reputable scientific academy. Then we will have proof.

(but this would have been done long ago if magic did exist. People like to believe in a fairy tale world though, probably because the real world is so damn sh**ty.)

Sounds to me like you're talking about religious belief, which just won't go away no matter how much we agnostics and atheists would like it to.

[Papaver]

Yes, but the fact remains that we, as non-scientists, basically just take their (scientists') word on it ("it" being pretty much any topic out there).

You are totally discounting the system of peer-review of published studies. There would have to be an immense cover-up on an impossible scale for scientists to publish heaps of lies and not be found out.

[eight bits]

Peer-review is not necessarily a safeguard against unreliable results being published, nor is it especially rigorous in the vast majority of cases. Many scientists accept, for instance, that about half the contents of the peer-reviewed literature is simply wrong.

In part, this is because the objectives of peer-review vary from journal to journal, and within journals, can change as editorial personnel changes. Another part is that service as a referee is usually an unpaid and episodic volunteer activity. There is a limit to how much can be asked of anybody in those circumstances.

Science has many institutionalized safegurards for quality control, many of which do not become active until after a "result" has appeared in the open literature.

The matter is important because finding anomalous results in the peer-reviewed literature is like shooting fish in a barrel. Non-scientist believers are forever coming up with this or that paper in a prestigious journal as "proof" that science really does support this or that.

And it just isn't. To claim that peer review is effective "quality control," or even is intended to be a check on reliability in all cases, is simply to invite pointless debate.

Edited March 5, 2008 by eight bits

[bleedingelite]

You are totally discounting the system of peer-review of published studies. There would have to be an immense cover-up on an impossible scale for scientists to publish heaps of lies and not be found out.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that scientists are lying to us. I'm saying that a lot of what science tells us, MOST of it actually, is theory. Sure, it is often theory that is strongly supported, but in no way proven. Often it is theory that is highly contested, but also highly popular.

And peer-reviewed papers aren't always conclusive. In fact, peer-reviewed papers are often "Here's what we think" papers, and are almost always met with criticism and challenges from other members of the community. Look at all the different feasible models of the universe that are coexisting right now as an example.

[Papaver]

Well, Eight Bits just blew my argument out if the water!

Bleedingelite, I see what you are saying but I see no other way to procede. I am happy with my belief system being comprised of current best knowlege and I don't get upset when something new comes along to change what I believe. The way my mind works I cannot see any better way of trying to understand the Cosmos and the phenomena within it.

Sure, we can believe things for all different kinds of reasons but the scientific method, for all its faults, has won us a lot of knowledge and gained us a lot in out everyday lives too.

What I am saying is that I believe in the Scientific Method as a tool for discovery. It is not infallible because it is wielded as a tool by fallible humans. I must reiterate that I cannot think of a more useful way to learn truths, or at least to try to get to a truth.

What alternative do you suggest we use as our means fact-finding? I am incapable of acts of faith in when it comes to extraordinary claims so I have the scientific method as my means of satiating my desire for truth and knowledge. I understand that not everybody is wired the same way that I am.

[bleedingelite]

Well, Eight Bits just blew my argument out if the water!

Bleedingelite, I see what you are saying but I see no other way to procede. I am happy with my belief system being comprised of current best knowlege and I don't get upset when something new comes along to change what I believe. The way my mind works I cannot see any better way of trying to understand the Cosmos and the phenomena within it.

Sure, we can believe things for all different kinds of reasons but the scientific method, for all its faults, has won us a lot of knowledge and gained us a lot in out everyday lives too.

What I am saying is that I believe in the Scientific Method as a tool for discovery. It is not infallible because it is wielded as a tool by fallible humans. I must reiterate that I cannot think of a more useful way to learn truths, or at least to try to get to a truth.

What alternative do you suggest we use as our means fact-finding? I am incapable of acts of faith in when it comes to extraordinary claims so I have the scientific method as my means of satiating my desire for truth and knowledge. I understand that not everybody is wired the same way that I am.

I can only think of one feasible alternative: psychic scrying.

Just kidding.

But what I'm saying is that there is faith involved in just about every belief. Sometimes you just have to dig a little deeper to see it, but it's there; a nasty little microbe of faith rooted deeply in just about every belief we hold dear.

[eight bits]

Just to be clear, H, this video will appear on Friday, 7 March 2008, right?

Yes...It will, I'm currently still practicing..I will start actually making the vid wednesday, and it will be done friday...If all goes weel...=)

It's showtime, H.

The audience takes their seats. The lights dim. The curtains part ....

[drakonwick]

Yes...It will, I'm currently still practicing..I will start actually making the vid wednesday, and it will be done friday...If all goes weel...=)

It's showtime, H.

The audience takes their seats. The lights dim. The curtains part ....

Hey, it is friday isn't it! WOW, I almost forgot about it. oops...

Alright then, lets see what you got Heart, this should be interesting.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

I am waiting.

[Kevin A.]

I am waiting.

Aren't we all......

Kevin A.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Hmm. The day is running out and no show so far. He is not been back in 2 days either.

[Atheist God]

Well my thready was closed down.

Apparently it's not productive to out frauds and liars when they make extraordinary claims.

[drakonwick]

Well, there is just two and half hours left by my time for Heart to post his video. So, it appears as though time is running out.

[Atheist God]

Well, there is just two and half hours left by my time for Heart to post his video. So, it appears as though time is running out.

3 hours left here it is now 9:04 PM.

[(KP)]

..but... magic isn't real.

If it was, we would all know by now.. to think otherwise is

(12:18 Central )

Edited March 8, 2008 by the sky is falling!

[Mattshark]

I don't care what you like.

I don't believe in science. What can you do?

I have said many things of what I believe it is my right.

Well at least this proves one thing. Your incomprehensibly stupid.