Why was God Afraid?

[djohan]

Here's the quote:

Genesis 11

The Tower of Babel

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, [a] they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [c] —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=31;

What do you think of this story in the bible?

[MadMachine]

In this story, it does seem like God's pulling the ol' "Divide and Conquer." Perhaps he was not all that Godly, if he found the unity of humanity undesirable.

[A Portion of the Cure]

Maybe it's like the wizard of oz. God didn't want them to know he wasn't really god-like, just a bald man with a remot control and a bored mind. But then why would he allow us to go into space if climbing higher and higher could get you to heaven? If I were him, I would have said something like- "You disgrace me, mortals. i now have to make this thing called an atmosphere that protects from the universe-which I just made so you can't get to me."

Just one more reason why I'm an atheist- it doesn't make sense

[jelly metal]

its saying how the differences between peoples belifs and languages are there to allow people to learn. if we all beleived in the same thing and had similar ideas there would be no room for unconditional love. people who share the same ideas have common ground and relate to each other well but people who oppose these ideas are seen as different and condition is put on their treatmant. there has to be differences for people to learn how to love without condition. if there was no conditions you couldnt learn uncondition. we have to rise above differences and realise we are all the same and deserve as much as the next person reguardless of imagined differences/ barriers.

Edited February 9, 2008 by jelly metal

[Lt_Ripley]

interesting point. no matter how you slice it it seems God didn't want people uniting. then again , it is just a story. like the rest.

[IamsSon]

God did not want people uniting to do evil. The builders of the Tower were building it in a prideful sense that they could reach God on their own terms. God knew that this mindset would result in the loss of all mankind, so He divided mankind to show them the difference between being the Creator, who can do as He pleases and being a creation which can't even control the language it speaks.

[draconic chronicler]

As I have shown in many posts, Yahweh is NOT the Creator God of the Bible. Yahweh is an assistant 'creature' to the true heavenly creator called Anu by the sumerian, and El by the Hebrews and Canannites, who stated Yaw was a dragon. The Bible too describes Yahweh as a jealous, cruel, fire spewing, winged, gold-hoarding, calve, child, and virgin eating creature that Christian gnostics and the Persian Empire also called a "dragon".

Every culture had its dragons, and the hebrews were no different. And in cultures all over the world they appear to be "assistants" to a higher heavenly entity that looked after a specific tribe they were assigned to. Even the Bible says as much, though the dragons were called Bene Elohim (Son's of God).

These dragons were powerful, and I doubt man has ever killed one despite the boasts. But even so, it seems Enki/Yahweh did not want his humans to become too confident, and feel they were greater than their 'gods'.

Edited February 9, 2008 by draconic chronicler

[Saraswati]

-

Edited February 12, 2008 by Saraswati

[GreyWeather]

God did not want people uniting to do evil. The builders of the Tower were building it in a prideful sense that they could reach God on their own terms. God knew that this mindset would result in the loss of all mankind, so He divided mankind to show them the difference between being the Creator, who can do as He pleases and being a creation which can't even control the language it speaks.

Or... You know. The story means; You can't build yourself steps into heaven, it you haven't truly learned what it is you need to elevate yourself to be by gods side.

Nothing in the bible is literal... It's metaphorical and spiritual guidence...

Edited February 9, 2008 by Chokmah

[Grandpa Greenman]

I don't think it was God who was afraid it was clergy who wrote the scripture who didn't want people to seek God on their own. No money to be made in that.

[draconic chronicler]

But causing a lack of communication was unnecessary. A city made of bricks and tar was never going to get very high. The laws of physics would have defeated the plan, long before anyone was in danger of confidently thinking they were in heaven.

If a real account, the point was not that the humans "could reach heaven" with their tower, but that too many humans were workng together towards a common goal that was not the plan of their "god-creature".

[djohan]

Let's see closer:

Genesis 11:5-7

But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.

Based on the quotation, in my opinion - in brief it seems that God does not want His "beloved" creatures uniting and coming to Him? It's really confusing me. And the phrase let us go down ... makes me more confused ... it shows that there are more than one God. (us = plural).

Edited February 9, 2008 by djohan

[GIDEON MAGE]

Let's see closer:

Based on the quotation, in my opinion - in brief it seems that God does not want His "beloved" creatures uniting and coming to Him? It's really confusing me. And the phrase let us go down ... makes me more confused ... it shows that there are more than one God. (us = plural).

Just like in Genesis, God was speaking to the angels. "Let us", although some say it is the

1)"royal we", and

2) trinitarians make this a sick "proof text", i.e. "The Father was talking to the Son and Holy Ghost, duh",

3) the story is older than the Hebrews, and originally El was speaking to Marduk, etc.

4) we must remember that YHWH had a wife, Asherah, who the Jews had a statue of in front of the Holy of Holies.

Edited February 9, 2008 by GIDEON MAGE

[+Link of Hyrule]

I think the issue in this passage is not that humanity was united, but that it was united in a cause of evil. In their desire to build a tower that could reach heaven (the sky) they wanted to reach God on their own merits, indeed they wanted to become gods themselves. They did not seek God, did not wish to glorify him, did not desire to follow him, but instead rejected him completely and utterly. As a result of this, God divided them.

In the context of Genesis, this is the climax of the evil of mankind as they slide deeper and deeper into sin. From Cain killing Abel, to the wickedness of people before the Flood, this final act of evil shows mankind totally rejecting God in favour of setting themselves up as gods themselves. It is the final act of sin - total rejection of God. This punishment remains unresolved for some generations before God speaks to Abraham at the start of Genesis 12, which leads to God setting up a new people to follow him.

This is what i get out of the story of the Tower of Babel.

~ Regards, PA

[djohan]

Here's another story written in bible which is also confusing me.

Genesis 32:22-31 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

[NIV at IBS] [international Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Jacob Wrestles With God

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"

"Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [a] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."

But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, [c] and he was limping because of his hip.

Footnotes:

1. Genesis 32:28 Israel means he struggles with God .

2. Genesis 32:30 Peniel means face of God .

3. Genesis 32:31 Hebrew Penuel , a variant of Peniel

SOURCE:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=31;

Jacob Wrestles With God and Jacob is the winner. Is it possible? What are your opinions, then?

[churchanddestroy]

Here's another story written in bible which is also confusing me.

SOURCE:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=31;

Jacob Wrestles With God and Jacob is the winner. Is it possible? What are your opinions, then?

Traditionally the entity that Jacob wrestled with is held to be an angel, or so I was told way back when.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Here's another story written in bible which is also confusing me.

SOURCE:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=31;

Jacob Wrestles With God and Jacob is the winner. Is it possible? What are your opinions, then?

Just curious, but do you actually intend to participate in the discussion of the passages you raise, or after another dozen replies to this question are you just going to ask another question about another passage????? Just a thought....

That said, I don't think this passage shows that there was a clear "winner" in the sense of someone tapping out, though it was clear that Jacob was strong enough to hold his own (at least until his hip was wrenched). As to the question of him wrestling with God, that is a difficult one to answer. Did Jacob actually wrestle with God? Or was it someone else? This passage ends off with it appearing to be God, as Jacob does say he saw God face-to-face. But this passage is also a lot more problematic than it would seem, for multiple reasons. First - the Bible is clear that God is spirit - he has no form. Second - the Bible says that no one has seen God (John 1:18).

So, the question becomes whether these facts are compatible - can someone have wrestled God face-to-face, and yet never have been seen by anyone? And to answer this, I will point towards two well-known Old Testament stories (I could use others also, but these two stories most should know). The first is also from Genesis, in chapter 22 when God tests Abraham in asking him to sacrifice his son, Isaac. After the event, the Bible reads:

But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!". "Here I am," he replied. "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." - Genesis 22:11-12.

This passage seemingly uses the phrases "The Lord", and "The Angel of the Lord" interchangeably. The Bible speaks of the "Angel of the Lord", yet it speaks as God would speak. Not to mention that it was God who asked for the sacrfice in the first place (Genesis 22:1-2), and yet the Angel of the Lord being the one who sees it through.

The second passage is Exodus 3, and is even clearer than the first passage I quoted (you could try and argue that the Angel of the Lord is a mouthpiece in this first example, but not so with the second). The story of the Burning Bush:

There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush..... When the LORD saw that (Abraham) had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" - Exodus 3:2-4.

In verse 2, the "Angel of the Lord" appears in the burning Bush, yet in verse 4, when it speaks to Moses, it is "The Lord" who speaks. The names here are even more clearly used interchangeably.

While I did only quote two passages here, the Old Testament is filled with examples where the "Angel of the Lord" and "the Lord" are described as one and the same. So, did Jacob wrestle with God? Or was it the Angel of the Lord? Or...... and I know Gideon will hate this possibility, but was it Jesus (the Father still remaining in heaven) with whom Jacob wrestled?

Hopefully you'll stick around to respond to some posts rather than just bring up another scenario from the Bible. Cheers,

~ Regards, PA

Edited February 10, 2008 by Paranoid Android

[Sylent Nyte]

Well, since this is my first post outside of PM's, please let me introduce myself through it.

First off, to establish a constant let's assume that what was written in Scripture is somewhat accurate(this can of course, never be ascertained as we have little solid insight when it comes to societies of that time) In order to answer the question of "why was the human race divided into many tongues, by God, to ensure that we would not be able to work towards a common goal as a species," IMHO it comes down to the same question of "why don't we want our future AI becoming too smart."

What would happen if we, the human race, created Artificial Intelligence and it outstripped us in terms of processing power, logic and forethought? I believe this is the same answer we will get when asking this particular question about the Tower of Babel.

[djohan]

@ PA

Thanks for the comments. Well, based on what you've described " ... The first is also from Genesis, in chapter 22 when God tests Abraham in asking him to sacrifice his son, Isaac. ...." , especially the bold word (tests) - in my opinion I'm sure God knows everything and He does not have to test Abraham asking him to sacrifice his son. Doesn't it (the story) sound odd?

And about this one:

Just curious, but do you actually intend to participate in the discussion of the passages you raise, or after another dozen replies to this question are you just going to ask another question about another passage????? Just a thought....

Yes, I added another "similar" passage (contextually) because my sub-topic is "Is The Bible True?" as I see some passages that I cannot understand.

Edited February 10, 2008 by djohan

[WraithGod]

I interpret this as "God" creating racial and cultural divisions and therefore most of the hatred and war in history, lol.

[+Link of Hyrule]

@ PA

Thanks for the comments. Well, based on what you've described " ... The first is also from Genesis, in chapter 22 when God tests Abraham in asking him to sacrifice his son, Isaac. ...." , especially the bold word (tests) - in my opinion I'm sure God knows everything and He does not have to test Abraham asking him to sacrifice his son. Doesn't it (the story) sound odd?

And about this one:

Yes, I added another "similar" passage (contextually) because my sub-topic is "Is The Bible True?" as I see some passages that I cannot understand.

Hi djohan, I think the story makes perfect sense. You just have to read the entire story to get an idea of what's happening. First, I would say that you are absolutely right, and God does know everything, and therefore knew Abraham's response. But I guess the question I ask when I read this is who was the test for? Was it for God's benefit? Or Abraham's? Or...... ours?

If you read back in Genesis to before Isaac was born, you will note that God promised to Abraham that he would have a child through Sarah (his wife). But since Sarah was barren and past childbearing age (doubly challenged for child), Abraham did not have Faith in God's promise and so used his maidservant, Hagar, to produce a child. But God does not give up on Abraham and blesses Sarah to give birth, which she does, despite being barren AND past childbearing age. Now, God had promised that it would be through Abraham and Sarah's seed (not seeds, but seed - singular) that his line would become a great nation, and God makes it clear to Abraham that it is Isaac who is that seed. Not another child, not someone else that might come along, not another miraculous birth to come - but Isaac, and Isaac alone.

Now in chapter 22, God says "kill him". Not just that, he highlights that it is Abraham's one and only son - the son whom God promised to make into a great nation. I'm sure Abraham would have been confused by this order. God has been with Abraham for years, continually keeping promise after promise, even making his barren and old wife give birth. And he promised that Isaac would be a great nation. And now Abraham hears that he is to kill Isaac. Abraham, knowing that God always keeps his promises , having that promise confirmed through Isaac's birth (among other things), Abraham sets off to sacrifice his son, knowing with full certainty that Isaac could not possibly die.

Abraham even said to his servants as he was going up to the mountain "Wait here. We will go over there and worship, and then WE will return". He fully expected them both to return, because God had promised that Isaac would be the seed through which his line was passed. Hebrews 11 tells us that Abraham was going to kill his son and by Faith believed that God would raise him from the dead, but that is unclear from this text - it could very well be that, or it could be that Abraham was just standing there thinking "Yeah, God, now would be a good time to stop me". Whatever the case, the fact remains taht Abraham knew Isaac would not die.

And so it came to pass that indeed as the knife was about to come down, the Angel of the Lord appeared and spoke with the voice of the Lord (I spoke a little about this in my last post), telling him to stop. Isaac was not killed. Abraham's Faith is rock-solid. He knows that now, and when we read that story, we know that too.

A question I sometimes ask myself when reading the Bible is "What if that story was left out of the Bible"? In this case, we would have had Abraham doubting God about his promises of a son, and so tries to have a son through the maidservant. Abraham's Faith at this point could be described as "shaky", I would say. But then God keeps his promise, and we can imagine what that might do for Abraham's Faith, but without chapter 22, we would only know that he had a shaky Faith, and now that Faith is uncertain. With chapter 22, we know that Abraham's Faith is rock-solid.

That's how I see the importance of chapter 22. Hope that helps, djohan

~ Regards, PA

[Nik Xues]

i love this people who can read a bible and ask questions.

why in hell[pardonmoi] do the preists not discuss this. sorry if yours do.

bk2pt

my favorite line is in genesis

"Let US make man in OUR image"

who is he talking to?

is this prove that god is:

A an extra terrestrial

B married [talking to his wife]

C crazy as a fox on acid.

i wonder when they refer to him sending an angel if the discrepuncy is like the angel is like a telephone [this coincides better in the ET theories]

[momentarylapseofreason]

i love this people who can read a bible and ask questions.

why in hell[pardonmoi] do the preists not discuss this. sorry if yours do.

bk2pt

my favorite line is in genesis

"Let US make man in OUR image"

who is he talking to?

is this prove that god is:

A an extra terrestrial

B married [talking to his wife]

C crazy as a fox on acid.

i wonder when they refer to him sending an angel if the discrepuncy is like the angel is like a telephone [this coincides better in the ET theories]

Yes, who is US ???

Sounds like a group project. Anyone have an answer ?

[Lt_Ripley]

Yes, who is US ???

Sounds like a group project. Anyone have an answer ?

and you see it a few times as well. the US. I've heard people say it's the heavenly host ....... to a mistranslation.

yet never that it could be an ' US'. well why not ? Or maybe it's more proof that the bible was based on older religions .

[djohan]

and you see it a few times as well. the US. I've heard people say it's the heavenly host ....... to a mistranslation.

yet never that it could be an ' US'. well why not ? Or maybe it's more proof that the bible was based on older religions .

Mistranslation??? It's reasonable, too. But, if mistranslation happens, it makes things complicated.

And, I think it's hard to understand God's characteristics based on the bible, such as why God only chose Abraham, Moses, etc. And returning to the main topic of this thread, why did God make people confused by changing their languages? Why hadn't God created peoples with different languages earlier before the "tragedy" happened? Isn't God a Great Planner and knowing everything???