WACO

[sandee]

I know its an old story but I was thinking about how it was handled and how many were killed by our very own government and why.

Did they deserve what the FBI did and were they doing what the government say they were or was this just a persecution of beliefs?

The use of military troops against United States citizens violated federal law right? What actions have been taken if any to prevent this from happening again?

Are there similarities between the branch davidians and scientologist? I have to wonder if the actions taken by the government and FBI then and how they were viewed for their actions has any impact on how they would handle a similar situation today. What do you think?

Always a pleasure

On February 28, 1993, the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) launched the largest assault in its history against a small religious community in central Texas. Approximately eighty armed agents invaded the compound, purportedly to execute a single search and arrest warrant. The raid went badly; six Branch Davidians and four agents were killed, and after a fifty-one-day standoff, the United States Justice Department approved a plan to use CS gas against those barricaded inside. Tanks carrying the CS gas entered the compound. Later that day, fire broke out, and all seventy-four men, women and children inside perished.

Could tragedy have been prevented? Was it necessary for the BATF agents to do what they did? What could have been done differently?

Edited February 13, 2008 by sandee

[danielost]

I know its an old story but I was thinking about how it was handled and how many were killed by our very own government and why.

Did they deserve what the FBI did and were they doing what the government say they were or was this just a persecution of beliefs?

The use of military troops against United States citizens violated federal law right? What actions have been taken if any to prevent this from happening again?

Are there similarities between the branch davidians and scientologist? I have to wonder if the actions taken by the government and FBI then and how they were viewed for their actions has any impact on how they would handle a similar situation today. What do you think?

Always a pleasure

On February 28, 1993, the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) launched the largest assault in its history against a small religious community in central Texas. Approximately eighty armed agents invaded the compound, purportedly to execute a single search and arrest warrant. The raid went badly; six Branch Davidians and four agents were killed, and after a fifty-one-day standoff, the United States Justice Department approved a plan to use CS gas against those barricaded inside. Tanks carrying the CS gas entered the compound. Later that day, fire broke out, and all seventy-four men, women and children inside perished.

Could tragedy have been prevented? Was it necessary for the BATF agents to do what they did? What could have been done differently?

In the cases of waco and ruby ridge. These groups either were not criminals, ruby ridge. or were only doing something semi-illegal waco. But when it came to a real criminal group. In wyoming this group had put hit contracts out on federal judges and other officials. Clintion decided to handle them with kid gloves.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Yeah, just a peace loving bunch of religious folk...........Thats why 4 Federal agents died.

Or do you suspect that the agents killed themselves?

Ruby Ridge however, was a total SNAFU on the part of the Federals.

[danielost]

Yeah, just a peace loving bunch of religious folk...........Thats why 4 Federal agents died.

Or do you suspect that the agents killed themselves?

Ruby Ridge however, was a total SNAFU on the part of the Federals.

the 4 federal agents I believe were killed when they attacked the group.

The family at Ruby Ridge were targeted by the FBI or which ever government group it was at least 3 months prior to the incident. They tried for 3 months to sell the man an illegal weapon. He finally bought the thing to get them to leave him alone. Or, at least that is what the documentary on it several years later said.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Try to be cognizant of your facts please. The Agents approached the compund, near the entrance when shots rang out from the building. The agents never got out of the front yard.

But of course YOU know that the government agents are the "bad guys", and the mindless sheep who believed the claims of their leader that he was the reincarnated Christ were the "good guys", so I won't even try to change your mind with facts.

Enjoy your delusions and paranoia.

Peace out, enjoy your beliefs.

[danielost]

Try to be cognizant of your facts please. The Agents approached the compund, near the entrance when shots rang out from the building. The agents never got out of the front yard.

But of course YOU know that the government agents are the "bad guys", and the mindless sheep who believed the claims of their leader that he was the reincarnated Christ were the "good guys", so I won't even try to change your mind with facts.

Enjoy your delusions and paranoia.

Peace out, enjoy your beliefs.

All I know is that the Branch Devidians are still here in Waco.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I remember this event. I do not think that it had to do with religion. I think it was more of a concern, that they were storing illegal weaponary and there was rumors of child abuse. When it looked apparent to them, from what I read and watched, that the group was a danger to society, (the stash of illegal weaponary) and to the children, (child abuse among the children by David Koresh) I think the authorities had to act. Some years later, there was another cult who committed suicide, thinking they were going to fly away on a comet that was seen in the sky that year. I didn't know about them, until authorities found their bodies neatly lined up in their beds. There were no kids with them, and no weapons. They were left alone.

Maybe it could have been done differently, I don't know. There was loss of life, and it hurts to think there were children's lives that were loss. But I do believe something had to be done to save the children, and to make sure that the group gave up their illegal weapons and were not a harm to anyone. I remember bits and pieces, that before hand, there were rumors of what they would be doing with thier weapons.

[darkbreed]

Jonestown, Guyana, CIA woho.

Rings some bells

[sandee]

Try to be cognizant of your facts please. The Agents approached the compund, near the entrance when shots rang out from the building. The agents never got out of the front yard.

But of course YOU know that the government agents are the "bad guys", and the mindless sheep who believed the claims of their leader that he was the reincarnated Christ were the "good guys", so I won't even try to change your mind with facts.

Enjoy your delusions and paranoia.

Peace out, enjoy your beliefs.

I don't think they were peace loving or God like in any way JMPD, I should have made myself more clear, Sorry.

Always a pleasure

Edited February 14, 2008 by sandee

[Cradle of Fish]

Are there similarities between the branch davidians and scientologist?

While they could both be called cults, not really. Scientology resembles a moneymaking evangelist church. The Branch Davidians on the other hand were a splinter from the Seventh Day adventists, a group claiming that the end of the world was imminent in the late 1800s. After a few revisions when the dates came and went they split up into a bunch of different end time sects.

[danielost]

Try to be cognizant of your facts please. The Agents approached the compund, near the entrance when shots rang out from the building. The agents never got out of the front yard.

But of course YOU know that the government agents are the "bad guys", and the mindless sheep who believed the claims of their leader that he was the reincarnated Christ were the "good guys", so I won't even try to change your mind with facts.

Enjoy your delusions and paranoia.

Peace out, enjoy your beliefs.

so you claim that the dividians fired first

but here is what wikipedia says

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The ATF mounted the raid on a Sunday morning, February 28, 1993. Any advantage of surprise was lost as a reporter, who had been tipped off on the raid, asked for directions from a U.S. Postal Service mail carrier who was Koresh's brother-in-law.[4] Koresh then confronted the ATF agent who had infiltrated the Branch Davidians and told him that they knew a raid was coming. Koresh and his male followers then began arming and taking up defensive positions, while the women and children were told to take cover in their rooms.[4]

Despite being informed that the Davidians knew the raid was coming, the ATF commander ordered that the raid go ahead, even though their plan had depended on reaching the compound without the Davidians having been armed.[4]

Agents approached the site in cattle trailers pulled by pickup trucks owned by individual ATF agents. It is not known who fired the first shots.[4] It is reported that the first firing occurred at the double front entry doors. ATF agents stated that they heard shots coming from within the building, while Branch Davidian survivors claimed that the first shots came from the ATF agents outside.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

================================================================================

============

If I am not mistaken when you use any type of armored vehicile that is an attack no matter who fired the first shoot. The fed. government was attacking them because they had legal semi-automatic weapons.

================================================================================

=============

Within a minute of the raid starting, a Davidian, Wayne Martin, called 911 pleading for them to stop shooting. The resident asked for a ceasefire, and audiotapes clearly caught him saying "Here they come again!" and "That's them shooting, that's not us!"

[fullywired]

I know its an old story but I was thinking about how it was handled and how many were killed by our very own government and why.

Did they deserve what the FBI did and were they doing what the government say they were or was this just a persecution of beliefs?

The use of military troops against United States citizens violated federal law right? What actions have been taken if any to prevent this from happening again?

Are there similarities between the branch davidians and scientologist? I have to wonder if the actions taken by the government and FBI then and how they were viewed for their actions has any impact on how they would handle a similar situation today. What do you think?

Always a pleasure

On February 28, 1993, the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) launched the largest assault in its history against a small religious community in central Texas. Approximately eighty armed agents invaded the compound, purportedly to execute a single search and arrest warrant. The raid went badly; six Branch Davidians and four agents were killed, and after a fifty-one-day standoff, the United States Justice Department approved a plan to use CS gas against those barricaded inside. Tanks carrying the CS gas entered the compound. Later that day, fire broke out, and all seventy-four men, women and children inside perished.

Could tragedy have been prevented? Was it necessary for the BATF agents to do what they did? What could have been done differently?

What was a "small religious group doing with weapons ?were they to fight Satan ?

fullywired

[sandee]

I remember this event. I do not think that it had to do with religion. I think it was more of a concern, that they were storing illegal weaponary and there was rumors of child abuse. When it looked apparent to them, from what I read and watched, that the group was a danger to society, (the stash of illegal weaponary) and to the children, (child abuse among the children by David Koresh) I think the authorities had to act. Some years later, there was another cult who committed suicide, thinking they were going to fly away on a comet that was seen in the sky that year. I didn't know about them, until authorities found their bodies neatly lined up in their beds. There were no kids with them, and no weapons. They were left alone.

Maybe it could have been done differently, I don't know. There was loss of life, and it hurts to think there were children's lives that were loss. But I do believe something had to be done to save the children, and to make sure that the group gave up their illegal weapons and were not a harm to anyone. I remember bits and pieces, that before hand, there were rumors of what they would be doing with thier weapons.

I remember they wouldn't let the social workers in for them to examine the children to make sure they were not abused. Its is very sad that the children was mixed up in the non sense and that some died for something they probably didn't even understand

What was a "small religious group doing with weapons ?were they to fight Satan ?

fullywired

I think they thought the end of the world was at hand, Right? Maybe they had them because they knew they would be destroyed at some point, Kore sh was out of his mind there's no telling what he had them believing.

[danielost]

What was a "small religious group doing with weapons ?were they to fight Satan ?

fullywired

you will have to ask them.

[Lt_Ripley]

I remember this event. I do not think that it had to do with religion. I think it was more of a concern, that they were storing illegal weaponary and there was rumors of child abuse. When it looked apparent to them, from what I read and watched, that the group was a danger to society, (the stash of illegal weaponary) and to the children, (child abuse among the children by David Koresh) I think the authorities had to act. Some years later, there was another cult who committed suicide, thinking they were going to fly away on a comet that was seen in the sky that year. I didn't know about them, until authorities found their bodies neatly lined up in their beds. There were no kids with them, and no weapons. They were left alone.

Maybe it could have been done differently, I don't know. There was loss of life, and it hurts to think there were children's lives that were loss. But I do believe something had to be done to save the children, and to make sure that the group gave up their illegal weapons and were not a harm to anyone. I remember bits and pieces, that before hand, there were rumors of what they would be doing with thier weapons.

exactly. former members left because of sexual abuse of children by Koresh who claimed to be Jesus and of weaponery that was illegal to own.

while it could have been handled better ( how ? with threats of killing from inside) there was no deaths until the FBI went into to yard. When shots started firing. and Koresh made good his threat by lighting the place ablaze.

the FBI should have sat it out in my opinion. But who knows how Koresh would have delt with that in the long run. either way it may have ended the same.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/wa...tonerpt.html#vi

[fullywired]

you will have to ask them.

I thought they were killed

fullywired

[Rocket88]

Glad i"m an atheist.This religion stuff is way too violent for me.

[SunDogDayze]

There is such a fine line between what happened and what should have been done, this was always a very gray area for me, even though I am pretty opinionated.

I think the main factor involved in this was the children, because without them, I don't think it would have been so disastrous. The adults that were involved all had a choice whether to follow Koresh to death or to walk out. The kids didn't. I don't know if anything could have been different. Koresh was not stable, he was not about to compromise, and the Gov't tried to do what they had to do to save the kids. It backfired on them badly, and even though they knew there was a chance of that happening, they also could not just sit and wait to let that insane man hurt them, or show an example to the rest of the world that you can break the law and get away with it.

I don't know, its so touchy. I swing back and forth. If the gov't had just sat back, who knows how many other crazy cult leaders would have pulled something like that, knowing there was no repercussion as long as they had kids as a shield? On the other hand, didn't the BATF know from experience with this guy that he was not stable, and that he was not going to give up without a fight?

I don't think the kids had a chance from the beginning. No matter what was done, their stupid parents were going to let them be the ones to suffer.

[eqgumby]

Glad i"m an atheist.This religion stuff is way too violent for me.

He he. Smart-butt.

Anytime anyone insists on sporting automatic weapons in the name of religion, you know the crap is going to hit the fan. Especially if the head honcho says he's Jesus and insists upon "marrying" the teenage daughters of his followers.

I think the Gov. mishandled the case, but I think they were on the right track, if that makes any sense.

[HammeroftheGods]

He he. Smart-butt.

Anytime anyone insists on sporting automatic weapons in the name of religion, you know the crap is going to hit the fan. Especially if the head honcho says he's Jesus and insists upon "marrying" the teenage daughters of his followers.

I think the Gov. mishandled the case, but I think they were on the right track, if that makes any sense.

I wonder why the government does nothing about a similar situation at Gold Base? L. Ron Hubbard also said he was "God". The main difference is that you have to pay $300,000+ to "learn" this....and disconnect from anyone close to you who may try to open your eyes and expose his con-game.

[eqgumby]

I wonder why the government does nothing about a similar situation at Gold Base? L. Ron Hubbard also said he was "God". The main difference is that you have to pay $300,000+ to "learn" this....and disconnect from anyone close to you who may try to open your eyes and expose his con-game.

I think if the government believed they were stockpiling illegal weapons on US soil, they would act on that information, provided it was not all hearsay.

[HammeroftheGods]

I think if the government believed they were stockpiling illegal weapons on US soil, they would act on that information, provided it was not all hearsay.

If you read the link, you will see a portion of the declaration from a former member(Andre Tabayoyon) who has knowledge of the weapons cache at Gold Base(2nd post down in the thread). I personally have never been there.

[danielost]

I thought they were killed

fullywired

No some survived and are doing good right here in Waco on the same property in fact. I drove a reporter from england out to their compound a couple of years ago.