Birth of Kalki

[Ozi]

Thank you. anything else? if you have, get it over.

Im well over it, i know im telling the truth, i know my sources are far more credible. why would i not be over it.

[The Maharaja]

Ahem attenion my fellow asians get a grip why are you getting so emotional these forums are supposed to be about reasoned debate and not to use religion as a way to continue the India vs pakistan grudge match keep it for the cricket man were india allways wins he he he

Edited February 27, 2008 by The Maharaja

[Ozi]

Ahem attenion my fellow asians get a grip why are you getting so emotional these forums are supposed to be about reasoned debate and not to use religion as a way to continue the India vs pakistan grudge match keep it for the cricket man were india allways wins he he he

I love cricket. I originally from Kashmir. However, personally i class myself being indian, as once we were all apart of the same nation. Although, Kashmir even historically, remained pretty much independant all the time. Only in recent history since the brits cut it to pieces, has Kashmir not been indendant. Hey thats a whole diff debate. Back to cricket, i support england, since i have been here for many years.

[Saru]

Da Verminator and Ozi, please refer back to the PM you both received a few days ago, lets not turn this thread in to another case of bickering between the two of you.

Lets keep this thread civil please.

[prisha]

after reading these posts by ozi and enlightened by the info, i did a little digging and found these good articles which i enjoyed much

http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/bharath...vedicpast1.html

http://vedicearth.com/veda-islam.php

http://www.hindunet.com/home/social_contem...an/muhammad.htm

The Vishnu Purana does not say that the Kalki Avatar will be the last messenger. This Purana does say that the Kalki Avatar:

1. Exists of his own spiritual nature in the character of Brahma

2. Is the beginning and the end

3. Comprehends all things

4. Will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent Brahmin of Sambhala village

5. Will be endowed with the eight superhuman faculties

None of these descriptions apply to Muhammad.

Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar is a god [Vishnu] who has been reincarnated 10 times and not a mere messenger. Muhammad claimed to be a messenger and would have been grossly offended by the suggestion that he was the incarnation of a Pagan god. There is a huge difference between the concept of Prophethood in Islam and the concept of the Avatar in Hinduism and one cannot impose an Islamic meaning on a Hindu title.

Nearly every hero in the ancient world used swords and horses, therefore, this criteria doesn't point out anyone in particular. However, some Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar will be a machine-man, who will come to earth on a white horse with a blazing sword in his hands. This future incarnation of Vishnu will appear at the end of Kali Yuga (evil eon) and would solve the problem of Adharma (unrighteousness). He will punish all evil people in this world, destroy the world, and recreate a golden age of peace and harmony. Clearly, Muhammad did none of these things.

I also have a question for "ozi", if kalki is muhammed (i do not think kalki is here yet so it is going to be tough to be accepted) but i am curious how about the previous 9 avatars of Lord Maha Vishnu. are they correlated with Islam too. please do provide a link and i would enjoy reading them immensely.

For your convenience i am giving the 10 avatars of Vishnu, so that u can prove their origin in islam and muhammed

http://www.crystalinks.com/avatars.html

Regarding your comment about me using the word Hindu (with arabic origin) to describe my religion is for a matter convenience so that other folks will understand. My way of life is sanathana dharma and i have no qualms about it.

let me know if you want more links

Its no about me considering any ideas, its about facts, proclaimed by Pandits, you know who they are, and Professors. Reliable and authentic information, when you dont have any answers left, its easy to say things like those you have said above. they normally come out, when is lost for words and cant construct a compelling rebuttal, like i was alleged of , when i simply cut and paste a small portion of an article. You were all quick to jump on a band wagon that i cant do anything my self. Well wats the problem now. What u dont realise is this, opinions are all welcome and good, but to accept one as reliable and authentic, its has to pass certian criteria. Like you would look for, if we were talking about scientific stuff, you wont accept any tom , dick and harries thought as the end all be all of it, you would want credible evidence, you make claims like, "well he just wont accept anything else as right, apart from what he thinks is right", RUBBISH!, you would be the same, if presented unreliable evidence.

Look out for more to come, because muhammed was mentioned in the hindu scriptures over a 100 times..... this was scratching the surface and i have satisfied my suspitions of prejudice amongst many of you, and shown your prejudice clearly, too. You fail to accept you were wrong, the articles were unreliable and that you dont know as much as you think or claim. I have also pointed out that, when you seek evidence yourself, it has to be credible to be accepted, yet you post rubbish yourself, with hardly any research in to it, infact i had to point out from your second article to the author and yourself, who translation Dr Haq used, even the author of article was clueless, showing his academic ability, and the fact you said "he looks as though he has done some thorough research", clearly you did not. I had to point out to you and him, the link he posted for the translation he used, also showed a translation far more superior and reliable, yet proving his in ability to look at things objectively and justly, as well as his devious nature, to ignore the more reliable sources and opt for unreliable sources. What more proof do you need, the truth, even if it hits most of you in the face repeatedly, you still miss it.

I think it was about time i addressed the Verminator on this thread, he has said many things, with out a response from me. the posts are from another forum i created based on this notion of muhammed in the hindu scriptures. It got closed, because things got outta hand on both sides, but i dint realise he was posting the same stuff on this thread. Cheeky.

[The Maharaja]

after reading these posts by ozi and enlightened by the info, i did a little digging and found these good articles which i enjoyed much

http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/bharath...vedicpast1.html

http://vedicearth.com/veda-islam.php

http://www.hindunet.com/home/social_contem...an/muhammad.htm

The Vishnu Purana does not say that the Kalki Avatar will be the last messenger. This Purana does say that the Kalki Avatar:

1. Exists of his own spiritual nature in the character of Brahma

2. Is the beginning and the end

3. Comprehends all things

4. Will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent Brahmin of Sambhala village

5. Will be endowed with the eight superhuman faculties

None of these descriptions apply to Muhammad.

Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar is a god [Vishnu] who has been reincarnated 10 times and not a mere messenger. Muhammad claimed to be a messenger and would have been grossly offended by the suggestion that he was the incarnation of a Pagan god. There is a huge difference between the concept of Prophethood in Islam and the concept of the Avatar in Hinduism and one cannot impose an Islamic meaning on a Hindu title.

Nearly every hero in the ancient world used swords and horses, therefore, this criteria doesn't point out anyone in particular. However, some Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar will be a machine-man, who will come to earth on a white horse with a blazing sword in his hands. This future incarnation of Vishnu will appear at the end of Kali Yuga (evil eon) and would solve the problem of Adharma (unrighteousness). He will punish all evil people in this world, destroy the world, and recreate a golden age of peace and harmony. Clearly, Muhammad did none of these things.

I also have a question for "ozi", if kalki is muhammed (i do not think kalki is here yet so it is going to be tough to be accepted) but i am curious how about the previous 9 avatars of Lord Maha Vishnu. are they correlated with Islam too. please do provide a link and i would enjoy reading them immensely.

For your convenience i am giving the 10 avatars of Vishnu, so that u can prove their origin in islam and muhammed

http://www.crystalinks.com/avatars.html

Regarding your comment about me using the word Hindu (with arabic origin) to describe my religion is for a matter convenience so that other folks will understand. My way of life is sanathana dharma and i have no qualms about it.

let me know if you want more links

Wow now thats a rebuttal

[Ozi]

after reading these posts by ozi and enlightened by the info, i did a little digging and found these good articles which i enjoyed much

http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/bharath...vedicpast1.html

Im glad you read the articles, but first things first. Regarding evidence, we both agree, that it should be credible, YES! Good. Now for example if we were talking about history, science or anything, in a debate, one has to present credible evidence. What is classed as Credible. Well, credible evidence should be from the most reliable and most authentic source, ideally it should come from experts regarded as the best in their field and the most reliable. For example, the translation i posted on the Kalki Avatar is from Pandit Rajaram, now you as a hindu, tell me who has more authority than a pandit in sanskrit and the scriptures, and Pandit Rajaram is the known as one of the most reliable and authentic sources, combine this with Professor Griffith, and you will find the most reliable and authentic translation of the scriptures. Now lets examine how credible your evidence is, firstly im glad you dint use Wiki, like most here, thinking its a credible academic source, when its nothing but that.

I will deal with you first link......

The author of the article is Aditi Chaturvedi, who is she. Is she a professor, or sanskrit expert, maybe she is a hindu scholar, or guru or is she a panidt. Well guess what, she is none of them. So how credible is her article, lets see. Her is a an extract from her article.

"In learning about this most ancient heritage, let's begin with the word Arabistan itself. Arabistan is derived from the original Sanskrit term Arvasthan which means The Land of Horses. Since time immemorial proponents of the Vedic culture used to breed exceptional horses in this region. Thus eventually the land itself began to be called Arva (Horses) -Sthan (place). The people who lived in this land were called Semitic. Semitic comes from the Sanskrit word Smritic. Arabs followed the ancient Vedic Smritis such as Manu-Smriti as their revered religious guides and thus they were identified as Smritic which has been corrupted into Semitic"

She gives a detailed explanation here, or at least she attempts to do so. But at no point does she mention her references, where this can be verified etc, and guess what the whole article is like that. You see no one is going to accept such an article as evidence unless it provided solid proof as she claims at the start to do so, "I will prove to you point by point that pre-Islamic Arabia was in fact a flourishing civilization which revered Vedic culture.", but at no point does she actually provide any solid proof. She also makes claims that the kabbah is shiva shrine, the foot prints are of a reincarnated version of vishnu and that the black stone, is also to do with vedic tradition and an idol for muslims to worship, at no point does she provide any hard evidence, Please refrain from such rubbish articles, i like to debate as you know, but i do try and use credible evidence or articles, from credible sources. in this instance you did neither. As for the kabbah being hindu shrine, i will post a link to refute that later, and the foot prints etc. Asfor idol worship, before the advent of islam, the arabs were pagan, the kabbah was used not for worship, but to place stone idol gods etc, the advent of islam, changed this, and gave the kabah its true status, for which abraham and ishmael built it for, worshipping one god, a place of direction for the ummah, the global muslim community, making concentric circles around the globe, five times a day. The idols were thrown out, some gods, they could not even defend themselves. the author goes on a wild imaginative journey to ancient arabia, and makes so many hollow claims with no evidence , it becomes impossible as a muslim to address them all. For this reason, i expose the credibility of the author instead, i could go through each wild claim she made, but its time consuming, therefore lets see what she as to say about herself.

"

Let's start at the very beginning! I was born on July 12th, 1988 in a place called Pune in Maharashtra. I have been born and brought up as an 'Army kid',so basically I've been all over India: literally from Kashmir to Kanyakumari! I've lived in Dehradun 5 years now-the longest I've lived anywhere-so I guess I could say I 'belong' here. I'm in school in the 11th, doing humanities, and the three great loves of my life are music books and animals. I'm also deeply into History, Wildlife and Philosophy.

I'm an atheist, an iconoclast,a feminist, and an animal rights activist.I'm a debater and I love to write. I want to be either a historian or a writer. My greatest love, however, is my music and my piano. I've been playing since I was very young and was weaned on a diet of western classical music. When I was 12, I was introduced (courtsey MTV, Channel [V] and my brother) to the magic world of rock. I was hooked and have remained hooked ever since!

That's a whole lot of sentences beginning with "I.." so I guess I'd better call it a day! "

LOL. I think she better call it a day, dont you think so. She is atheist too......

her link

Clearly she is really a credible academic source of information. LOL. Luckily at the bottom of her article, she does credit the true authors of the information she provided, who are none other than P.N Oak and Robert Morey. So the question becomes, who are these guys. Well i know of Morey, but dint much of P.N Oak, but it was his assertion about the Kabbah being a shiva shrine and vedic culture in ancient arabia. Before i go in to this, i need to make a few things clear, I personally believe in an ancient hindu empire, infact i also believe, via credible sources and translations that the ancienct Rama empire and maybe later ones, did engulf large parts of the middle east and mesopotamia. But Arabia, was usually left alone, although trade etc would be done with them, but most empire saw its usless to go there, the pre-islamic arabs, were ignorant pagans living in a desert, there was nothing there for these empires, they were barbaric, killed their daughters, pretty much as they do today in India, but in arabia, they buried them alive etc, the advent of islam brought them back to their true potential as the decedants of ishmeal, the brethrens of the jews. I believe india once had a glorious empire, when islam came, it ruled india for a 1000 years, most people accepted them and the rule, and many religious authorities accepted islam, due to vedic prophecies. Now on to the topic, P.N Oak, here is alink to refute his notion on the kabbah, i have more , but this will suffice for now, i dont think i really need to address Aditi, she is clueless and just posting what she has read, pretty much like yourself. Exposition of her credibility as a viable source, is enough to refute her and her article, so let me adress Oak for now...link. Also, P N Oak, does not have the same credibility as Professor Griffith or Pandit Ramaraj, i have more credible sources too, if you want them.

Now on to my favourite, Robert Morey, you see what frustrates me about people on UM, they think that searching the net, just find something in opposition to anothers point is enough as research, and usually just post any old rubbish as evidence. Only when you research such evidence, you find out its just opinionated stuff based on another dubious source, coming from a dodgy translation, which they often dont quote and instead give their interpretation of the translation. Call yourself just. Yeh right, none of you know how to debate really, so far i would say, stella, capeo, sometime sundogdaze usually stick to credible material. Right, now i have that off my chest, Rober Morey, is one of the biggest, frauds and liars out there, but you will say, because im muslim, im bias, so lets see what pakistani christians say, where robert morey works out of as a christian missionary, not even a hindu scholar, or a scholar of any sort...link. You might say, well that from pakistan, although they are christian, they are bias, so lets see what other christians say about him, remember im not even using muslims....Link. interesting stuff, that ought to show clearly now, how credible your evidence was, which by the way i enjoyed reading, oh by the way, i have a big intrest in the vedas and ancient india. But when to say things like Aditi claimed for example, to find an idol in the kabbah means automatically that it belonged to a vedic culture is totally wrong, if for example, a quran was found in an ancient hindu temple, would that mean they were once muslim shrines, thats the sort of basis she debates on, purely opinion, nothing academic. She used two unkown dudes, people with no credibility or authority on the matter. How do you expect me to take it seriously.

Once i read the first the article, i was very afraid, afraid that you will have posted more, unreliable articles and sources, you dint let me down did you.

http://vedicearth.com/veda-islam.php

This one is even worse than first article, and all the one you use, they never seem to know DR Haqs source , which is professor Griffith, Pandit Rajaram, showing the authors ability to research, or they prejudice, you decide, i think it a bit of both.

"Who was Allah? A god created from the imagination of Hajrat Mohammad? We know now, that the name existed before. That Allah was the name of a local goddess in the pre Islamic Arab world. Now, was she only a God of the pre Islamic Arab world? In Veda, we find the mention of this name. The wife of Lord Shiva. Aliases - Allah, Ilah, Parvati, etc. "

This is the allegation about the moon god, originally maybe done by Oak too, its basically saying that the arabs worshipped a moon god, which is the same name that muslims use for god Allah. but here you are anyway. i will give you a link with a comprehensive rebuttal, which shows the nature of the author and his dubious sources and tactics, please read, i have read all the rubbish you posted, now at least read some credible stuff....link. And i tell you what, before you do it, here is a rebuttal to the other alleged pagan god that muslims worship , called RHMNN, here is the link, please have the courtesy to read them all, as it answers your articles and misconceptions, so its only right that you read them...link

We know that Arab countries were a part of India in the past, and one of the India emperors who ruled there (proof has been found) was King Vikramaditya. He was an avid worshipper of Lord Shiva, and founded many temples of Shiva across the Arab world. Does that mean, if Mohammad was really asked by the God Allah to spread his message, that basically he was contacted by Lord Allah, the wife of Lord Shiva?

LOL. do you expect me to take these claims seriously, they are ridiculous, not evidence, just a small phrase of fantasy and imagination. Just because ancient arabia was once pagan, does not mean it was vedic, just because they had pagan gods once does not mean they are the same god in the quran or worshipped today etc. Its pathetic, expecially when there is no credible evidence. If i wanted to could make this post so lengthy and address every minute point in these futile unreliable articles and their sources.

What about the astonishing similarities between the Quaran and Veda? Why some phrases seem to be direct translation from the later? Simple coincidence?

What about them, i believe, that the vedas were once divine revelation from the same one god. As was the bible, the torah the psalm etc, each of these religions carry common teaching and similarities between them, this shows the consistency with which god sent messenger and revelations, and what you find common amongst them can be verified as the true part of gods revelation, due to consistency in the message over the centuries etc.

Their holy place, Kaaba was nothing but a Shiva temple, this has been proved. That Mohammad was worshipping Lord Shiva and carried the message of Lord Allah, and if that is true, does that mean that all that Mahammad wanted was to spread the Vedic philosophy in the middle east?

Already addressed this point further up and provided links, also exposed the Oak to be unreliable and not credible at all. See what i mean i often have to keep repeating myself, due to the lack of research you have done before debating.

Now why Mohammad was so violent compared to other prophets? In Veda, they speak about the last reincarnation of Lord Chrisno or Lord Chesto, who will be violent and will spread his message with sword, as the world will be full of criminals and not so nice people at that time. Did Mohammad consider himself as the same reincarnation, and went violent to justify Veda's writings

Some opinion that, it claims that the propephcy relates to a period when the kalki avatar will come, and spread his message, the vedas do refer to the sword, as muhammed was allowed to fight back the pagan and his enemies, unlike jesus, who commanded to turn the other cheek, but what muhammed did was defend himself and his followers against persecution, what about the Ashoka, now thats a violent reign of blood and war, throughout indias ancient history, infact the vedic scriptures tell krishna to fight, if not he will not be rewarded by god, and if he fights, he will either attain heaven if he dies in the path of god, or he will gain the booty of war, its the same principle in islam, when muslims have to defend. Do you want me to bring the verse of warfare etc from the vedas. The above goes as far as acknowleding the prophecy is refering to muhammed, but never uses the words from the book or even a translation, instead a twisted opinionated version of the prophecy, and then it goes on to say the maybe muhammed fought with the sword and allegedly a violent reign in order to fulfil that prophecy, LOL. He was iliterate, lol. Any way its some connection, it just make me laugh that im supposed to take it seriously.

http://www.hindunet.com/home/social_contem...an/muhammad.htm

Again the same applies to this as the first artcle. The author of no credibility, do i really need to prove it on this one. She is trying to keep hold of her heritage at any cost, and will use material like yourself, from people who have no credibility. Again this another source which does not know Pandit Ramaraj, or Professor Griffith, infact she does not even know or mention the translation used by Dr Haq, to me its seems the articles of Oak and Morey are used widely on the net by such people and they just put in to their own words. This also shows their bias and prejudice, because they dont even attempt to discredit the source of translation used by Dr Haq, infact they dont even find out who he is using. How can you really accept such rubbish, or how do expect me to accept it. Do i look like mug, no, i do things properly. I think thats enough said about that article, if you really insist on a more indepth rebuttal on this one, let me know.

The Vishnu Purana does not say that the Kalki Avatar will be the last messenger. This Purana does say that the Kalki Avatar:

1. Exists of his own spiritual nature in the character of Brahma

2. Is the beginning and the end

3. Comprehends all things

4. Will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent Brahmin of Sambhala village

5. Will be endowed with the eight superhuman faculties

None of these descriptions apply to Muhammad.

Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar is a god [Vishnu] who has been reincarnated 10 times and not a mere messenger. Muhammad claimed to be a messenger and would have been grossly offended by the suggestion that he was the incarnation of a Pagan god. There is a huge difference between the concept of Prophethood in Islam and the concept of the Avatar in Hinduism and one cannot impose an Islamic meaning on a Hindu title.

Nearly every hero in the ancient world used swords and horses, therefore, this criteria doesn't point out anyone in particular. However, some Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar will be a machine-man, who will come to earth on a white horse with a blazing sword in his hands. This future incarnation of Vishnu will appear at the end of Kali Yuga (evil eon) and would solve the problem of Adharma (unrighteousness). He will punish all evil people in this world, destroy the world, and recreate a golden age of peace and harmony. Clearly, Muhammad did none of these things.

I also have a question for "ozi", if kalki is muhammed (i do not think kalki is here yet so it is going to be tough to be accepted) but i am curious how about the previous 9 avatars of Lord Maha Vishnu. are they correlated with Islam too. please do provide a link and i would enjoy reading them immensely.

For your convenience i am giving the 10 avatars of Vishnu, so that u can prove their origin in islam and muhammed

http://www.crystalinks.com/avatars.html

Regarding your comment about me using the word Hindu (with arabic origin) to describe my religion is for a matter convenience so that other folks will understand. My way of life is sanathana dharma and i have no qualms about it.

let me know if you want more links

Right before i post you the translation from Pandit Rajaram, i will address your points.

Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar is a god [Vishnu] who has been reincarnated 10 times and not a mere messenger. Muhammad claimed to be a messenger and would have been grossly offended by the suggestion that he was the incarnation of a Pagan god. There is a huge difference between the concept of Prophethood in Islam and the concept of the Avatar in Hinduism and one cannot impose an Islamic meaning on a Hindu title.

You see thats the hindus believing that Kalki Avatar is a god, Vishnu. You see most hindus dont really know the concept of god which is actaully in the vedas. If you want i can bring verse from credible sources, which will show the true nature of god in the vedas, and see how similar it is to islam, judaism, and even christianity, although the latter, in some cases practise paganistic beliefs, like the trinity. We dont believe in re-incarnation, muhammed was the kalki avatar, with out even imposing islamic meaning on a hindu one, i can show that you are only supposed to worship one god, make no idols, or pictures of him etc. But its different topic set it up and i will address it.

Nearly every hero in the ancient world used swords and horses, therefore, this criteria doesn't point out anyone in particular. However, some Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar will be a machine-man, who will come to earth on a white horse with a blazing sword in his hands. This future incarnation of Vishnu will appear at the end of Kali Yuga (evil eon) and would solve the problem of Adharma (unrighteousness). He will punish all evil people in this world, destroy the world, and recreate a golden age of peace and harmony. Clearly, Muhammad did none of these things.

Clearly you dont know islamic history. The advent of islam, and its spread was so quick, it ruled from indonesia to spain, in between you had no borders and great wealth, materially and knowledge wise, we progressed in science, by ourselves and translating ancient greek, latin and sanskrit works in india, and then made further progressions on them. This allowed islamic empire to flourish, the europeans, used to send the roylity to study in islamic universities in morroca and spain and baghdad. Islam brought the reneissance to europe, with out it, it would have remained in the dark ages for longer, when most of the world was in the dark ages, especially in europe, the islamic empire was progressing like no other. So it did create a golden age. The rest of what you say is opinion and intpretation of some translation. I can comment on that.

I also have a question for "ozi", if kalki is muhammed (i do not think kalki is here yet so it is going to be tough to be accepted) but i am curious how about the previous 9 avatars of Lord Maha Vishnu. are they correlated with Islam too. please do provide a link and i would enjoy reading them immensely

The Kalki avatar is muhammed, as for the other 9, i recall that even jesus was mentioned, but the other could have been prophets of god too. Sometimes god sent prophet after prophet, sometime two at once, or more, like when jesus was around, you had john the baptist, thts just one example, both were prophets of god. They simply might be referring to other prophets of god, like bhudda, jesus, moses maybe, i dont know, i need to do further research on them. But regarding the kalki, its the final, and if it the final messenger, only one man fits it, muhammed.

Now for the Prof. Pundit Vaid Parkash translation. Remember this guys is a professor and a pandit, what more do you want......

A recently published book in Hindi has raised a lot of hue and cry all over India. In the event of the author being Muslim, he would have been jailed AND a strict ban would have certainly been imposed on the printing and the publishing of the book.

The author of this important research work "Kalki Autar" i.e. "Guide and Prophet of whole universe" comes of a Bengali race and holds an important portfolio at Ilahabad University. Pundit Vaid Parkash is a Brahman Hindu and a well known Sanskrit scholar and research workder.

Pundit Vaid Parkash, after a great deal of toil and hard-work, presented the work to as many as eight great Pundits who are themselves very well known in the field of research in India, and are amongst the learned religious leaders. Their Pundits, after thorough study of the book, have acknowledged this to be true and authentic research work.

Important religious books of India mention the guide and prophet by the specific name of "Kalki Autar" it denotes the great man Muhammed (saw) who was born in Makkah. Hence, all Hindus where-ever they may be, should wait no longer for any other 'kalik autar' but to embrace Islam and follow in the footsteps of the last Messenger of Allah (swt) who was sent in the world about fourteen hundred years ago with a mission from Him and after accomplishing it has long ago departed this world. As an argument to prove the authenticity of his research, Pundit Vaid Parkash quotes from the Veda, a sacred book among Hindus:

1. Veda mentions that 'kalki autar' will be the last Messenger/Prophet of Bhagwan (Allah) to guide the whole world. Afer quoting this reference the Pundit Parkash says that this comes true only in the case of Muhammed (saw).

2. According to a prophecy of Hinduism, 'kalki autar' will be born in an island and that is the Arab territory which is known as 'jazeeratul Arab'.

3. In the 'sacred' book of Hindus the father's name of 'kalki autar' is mentioned as 'Vishnu Bhagat' and his mother's name as 'somanib'. In sanskrit, 'vishnu' stands for Allah (swt) and the literal meaning of 'bhagat' is slave.

'Vishnu Bhagat' therefore, in the Arabic language will mean Allah's slave (Abdullah). 'Somanib' in Sanskrit means peace and tranquilty which in arabic is denoted by the word 'Amina'. Whereas the last Messenger Muhammed's (saw) father and mother's names were Abdullah and Amina respectively.

4. In the big books of Hindus, it is mentioned that 'kalki autar' will live on olive and dates and he will be true to his words and honest. In this regard Pundit Parkash writes, "This is true and established only in the case of Muhammed (saw)".

5. Veda mentions that 'kalki autar' will be born in the respected and noble dynasty of his land. And this is also true as regards Muhammed (saw) as he was born in the respected tribe of Quraish who enjoyed great respect and high place in Makkah.

6. 'Kalki Autar' will be taught in the cave by Bhagwan through his own messenger. And it is very true in this matter. Muhammed (saw) was the only one person in Makkah who has taught by Allah's Messenger Gabriel in the cave of Hira.

7. It is written in the books which Hindus believe that Bhagwan will provide 'Kalki autar' with the fastest of a horse and with the help of which he will ride around the world and the seven skies/heavens. The riding on 'Buraq' and 'Meraj' by the Prophet Muhammed (saw) proves that

8. It is also written in the Hindus' books that 'kalki autar' will be strengthened and heavily helped by Bhagwan. And we know this fact that Muhammed (saw) was aided and reinforced by Allah (swt) through His angels in the battle of Badr.

9. Hindus' books also mention that 'kalki autar' will be an expert in horse riding, arrow shooting, and swordsmanship. What Pundit Vaid Parkash comments in this regard is very important and worth attention and consideration. He writes that the age of horses, swords, and spears is long ago gone and now is the age of modern weapons like tanks, missiles, and guns, and therefore it will be unwise to wait for 'kalki autar' bearing sword and arrows or spears. In reality, the mention in our books of 'kalki autar' is clearly indicative of Muhammed (saw) who was given the heavenly book known as Al-Qur'an

I hope that clear things up for you....., now to avatars...........

There is no concept of Messengers of God in Hinduism. However they have a concept of Avtaar. Avtaar is the Sanskrit term where ‘Av’ means down and ‘tr’ means passover. Thus Avtar means to descend down or to come down. The meaning of Avtaar in the oxford Dictionary is, “(In Hindu Mythology) the descent of a diety of a released soul to earth in bodily form”. In simple words, Avtaar means God Almighty coming down to earth in bodily form.

In Hinduism, It is believed that God Almighty comes down to the earth in some bodily form to protect the religion or to set an example or set the rules for the human beings.

There is no reference of Avtaars anywhere in the Vedas. The most sacred of the Hindu Scriptures i.e. Sruti. However it is found in the Smrti i.e. the Puranas and the Itihasas.

It is mentioned in the most popular and widely read book of Hinduism.

Bhagavad Geeta, Chapter 4, Verse 7-8

“Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendent of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion at that time I descend Myself”.

“To deliver the Pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I myself appear, millenium after millennium”.

Thus according to Bhagavad Geeta, God takes Avtaar to deliver the pious and annihilate miscreants and to reestablish the principles or religion.

According to the Puranas there are hundreds of Avtaars, but the Vishnu the sustainer has 10 Avtaars.

1. Matsya-avatar, in the form of a fish

2. Kurm-avatar, in the form of a tortoise

3. Varah-avatar, in the form of a boar or a pig

4. Narasimha-avatar, in the form of a monster, half man half lion

5. Vamana-avatar, in the form of a Brahmin dwarf named Vamana

6. Parashuaram-avatar, in the form of Parashurama

7. Rama-avatar, in the form of Rama, the hero of Ramayana

8. Krishna-avatar, in the form of Krishna, the hero of Gita

9. Buddha-avatar, in the form of Gautam Buddha

10. Kalki-avatar, in the form of Kalki

(Rigveda Samhiti, Volume XII, page 4309 by Swami Satyaprakash Saraswati and Satyakam Vidhyalank)

All these Scriptures are telling its reader that though the things are made so clear yet they divert away from the truth.

Source COMPARATIVE STUDY BETWEEN ISLAM AND HINDUISM by Dr Zakir Naik, he uses Griffith, Pandit Ramaraj and many others. Unfortunately i do not have link or anything as it is from an e- book i have.

thats jsut a brief thing about it, i will look in to it more indepth. But i just wanted to point out, that the vedas dont refer to re-incarnation literally, or that vishnu re-incarnates etc. The word which often thought as re-incarnation in hinduism is this, Punarjanam. In Sanskrit Punar or Puna means ‘next time’ or ‘again’ and Janam means ‘life’. Therefore Punarjanam means next life or the life here after. It does not means coming to life again and again. We can go in this and the concept of god in the vedas in another thread if you wish.

Now thats it im cream crackered after this rebuttal, a shame though, you probably wont read it all, or the links etc and will just flog me off with some random excuse like i simply dont hear the other side etc and then you may get personal like some poeple have done in the past and recently, to derail the thread and get it closed, i hope you dont adopt that method.

Now thats a rebuttal Maharajah.....

[The Maharaja]

Right before i post you the translation from Pandit Rajaram, i will address your points.

Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar is a god [Vishnu] who has been reincarnated 10 times and not a mere messenger. Muhammad claimed to be a messenger and would have been grossly offended by the suggestion that he was the incarnation of a Pagan god. There is a huge difference between the concept of Prophethood in Islam and the concept of the Avatar in Hinduism and one cannot impose an Islamic meaning on a Hindu title.

You see thats the hindus believing that Kalki Avatar is a god, Vishnu. You see most hindus dont really know the concept of god which is actaully in the vedas. If you want i can bring verse from credible sources, which will show the true nature of god in the vedas, and see how similar it is to islam, judaism, and even christianity, although the latter, in some cases practise paganistic beliefs, like the trinity. We dont believe in re-incarnation, muhammed was the kalki avatar, with out even imposing islamic meaning on a hindu one, i can show that you are only supposed to worship one god, make no idols, or pictures of him etc. But its different topic set it up and i will address it.

Nearly every hero in the ancient world used swords and horses, therefore, this criteria doesn't point out anyone in particular. However, some Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar will be a machine-man, who will come to earth on a white horse with a blazing sword in his hands. This future incarnation of Vishnu will appear at the end of Kali Yuga (evil eon) and would solve the problem of Adharma (unrighteousness). He will punish all evil people in this world, destroy the world, and recreate a golden age of peace and harmony. Clearly, Muhammad did none of these things.

Clearly you dont know islamic history. The advent of islam, and its spread was so quick, it ruled from indonesia to spain, in between you had no borders and great wealth, materially and knowledge wise, we progressed in science, by ourselves and translating ancient greek, latin and sanskrit works in india, and then made further progressions on them. This allowed islamic empire to flourish, the europeans, used to send the roylity to study in islamic universities in morroca and spain and baghdad. Islam brought the reneissance to europe, with out it, it would have remained in the dark ages for longer, when most of the world was in the dark ages, especially in europe, the islamic empire was progressing like no other. So it did create a golden age. The rest of what you say is opinion and intpretation of some translation. I can comment on that.

I also have a question for "ozi", if kalki is muhammed (i do not think kalki is here yet so it is going to be tough to be accepted) but i am curious how about the previous 9 avatars of Lord Maha Vishnu. are they correlated with Islam too. please do provide a link and i would enjoy reading them immensely

The Kalki avatar is muhammed, as for the other 9, i recall that even jesus was mentioned, but the other could have been prophets of god too. Sometimes god sent prophet after prophet, sometime two at once, or more, like when jesus was around, you had john the baptist, thts just one example, both were prophets of god. They simply might be referring to other prophets of god, like bhudda, jesus, moses maybe, i dont know, i need to do further research on them. But regarding the kalki, its the final, and if it the final messenger, only one man fits it, muhammed.

Now for the Prof. Pundit Vaid Parkash translation. Remember this guys is a professor and a pandit, what more do you want......

A recently published book in Hindi has raised a lot of hue and cry all over India. In the event of the author being Muslim, he would have been jailed AND a strict ban would have certainly been imposed on the printing and the publishing of the book.

The author of this important research work "Kalki Autar" i.e. "Guide and Prophet of whole universe" comes of a Bengali race and holds an important portfolio at Ilahabad University. Pundit Vaid Parkash is a Brahman Hindu and a well known Sanskrit scholar and research workder.

Pundit Vaid Parkash, after a great deal of toil and hard-work, presented the work to as many as eight great Pundits who are themselves very well known in the field of research in India, and are amongst the learned religious leaders. Their Pundits, after thorough study of the book, have acknowledged this to be true and authentic research work.

Important religious books of India mention the guide and prophet by the specific name of "Kalki Autar" it denotes the great man Muhammed (saw) who was born in Makkah. Hence, all Hindus where-ever they may be, should wait no longer for any other 'kalik autar' but to embrace Islam and follow in the footsteps of the last Messenger of Allah (swt) who was sent in the world about fourteen hundred years ago with a mission from Him and after accomplishing it has long ago departed this world. As an argument to prove the authenticity of his research, Pundit Vaid Parkash quotes from the Veda, a sacred book among Hindus:

1. Veda mentions that 'kalki autar' will be the last Messenger/Prophet of Bhagwan (Allah) to guide the whole world. Afer quoting this reference the Pundit Parkash says that this comes true only in the case of Muhammed (saw).

2. According to a prophecy of Hinduism, 'kalki autar' will be born in an island and that is the Arab territory which is known as 'jazeeratul Arab'.

3. In the 'sacred' book of Hindus the father's name of 'kalki autar' is mentioned as 'Vishnu Bhagat' and his mother's name as 'somanib'. In sanskrit, 'vishnu' stands for Allah (swt) and the literal meaning of 'bhagat' is slave.

'Vishnu Bhagat' therefore, in the Arabic language will mean Allah's slave (Abdullah). 'Somanib' in Sanskrit means peace and tranquilty which in arabic is denoted by the word 'Amina'. Whereas the last Messenger Muhammed's (saw) father and mother's names were Abdullah and Amina respectively.

4. In the big books of Hindus, it is mentioned that 'kalki autar' will live on olive and dates and he will be true to his words and honest. In this regard Pundit Parkash writes, "This is true and established only in the case of Muhammed (saw)".

5. Veda mentions that 'kalki autar' will be born in the respected and noble dynasty of his land. And this is also true as regards Muhammed (saw) as he was born in the respected tribe of Quraish who enjoyed great respect and high place in Makkah.

6. 'Kalki Autar' will be taught in the cave by Bhagwan through his own messenger. And it is very true in this matter. Muhammed (saw) was the only one person in Makkah who has taught by Allah's Messenger Gabriel in the cave of Hira.

7. It is written in the books which Hindus believe that Bhagwan will provide 'Kalki autar' with the fastest of a horse and with the help of which he will ride around the world and the seven skies/heavens. The riding on 'Buraq' and 'Meraj' by the Prophet Muhammed (saw) proves that

8. It is also written in the Hindus' books that 'kalki autar' will be strengthened and heavily helped by Bhagwan. And we know this fact that Muhammed (saw) was aided and reinforced by Allah (swt) through His angels in the battle of Badr.

9. Hindus' books also mention that 'kalki autar' will be an expert in horse riding, arrow shooting, and swordsmanship. What Pundit Vaid Parkash comments in this regard is very important and worth attention and consideration. He writes that the age of horses, swords, and spears is long ago gone and now is the age of modern weapons like tanks, missiles, and guns, and therefore it will be unwise to wait for 'kalki autar' bearing sword and arrows or spears. In reality, the mention in our books of 'kalki autar' is clearly indicative of Muhammed (saw) who was given the heavenly book known as Al-Qur'an

I hope that clear things up for you....., now to avatars...........

There is no concept of Messengers of God in Hinduism. However they have a concept of Avtaar. Avtaar is the Sanskrit term where ‘Av’ means down and ‘tr’ means passover. Thus Avtar means to descend down or to come down. The meaning of Avtaar in the oxford Dictionary is, “(In Hindu Mythology) the descent of a diety of a released soul to earth in bodily form”. In simple words, Avtaar means God Almighty coming down to earth in bodily form.

In Hinduism, It is believed that God Almighty comes down to the earth in some bodily form to protect the religion or to set an example or set the rules for the human beings.

There is no reference of Avtaars anywhere in the Vedas. The most sacred of the Hindu Scriptures i.e. Sruti. However it is found in the Smrti i.e. the Puranas and the Itihasas.

It is mentioned in the most popular and widely read book of Hinduism.

Bhagavad Geeta, Chapter 4, Verse 7-8

“Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendent of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion at that time I descend Myself”.

“To deliver the Pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I myself appear, millenium after millennium”.

Thus according to Bhagavad Geeta, God takes Avtaar to deliver the pious and annihilate miscreants and to reestablish the principles or religion.

According to the Puranas there are hundreds of Avtaars, but the Vishnu the sustainer has 10 Avtaars.

1. Matsya-avatar, in the form of a fish

2. Kurm-avatar, in the form of a tortoise

3. Varah-avatar, in the form of a boar or a pig

4. Narasimha-avatar, in the form of a monster, half man half lion

5. Vamana-avatar, in the form of a Brahmin dwarf named Vamana

6. Parashuaram-avatar, in the form of Parashurama

7. Rama-avatar, in the form of Rama, the hero of Ramayana

8. Krishna-avatar, in the form of Krishna, the hero of Gita

9. Buddha-avatar, in the form of Gautam Buddha

10. Kalki-avatar, in the form of Kalki

(Rigveda Samhiti, Volume XII, page 4309 by Swami Satyaprakash Saraswati and Satyakam Vidhyalank)

All these Scriptures are telling its reader that though the things are made so clear yet they divert away from the truth.

Source COMPARATIVE STUDY BETWEEN ISLAM AND HINDUISM by Dr Zakir Naik, he uses Griffith, Pandit Ramaraj and many others. Unfortunately i do not have link or anything as it is from an e- book i have.

thats jsut a brief thing about it, i will look in to it more indepth. But i just wanted to point out, that the vedas dont refer to re-incarnation literally, or that vishnu re-incarnates etc. The word which often thought as re-incarnation in hinduism is this, Punarjanam. In Sanskrit Punar or Puna means ‘next time’ or ‘again’ and Janam means ‘life’. Therefore Punarjanam means next life or the life here after. It does not means coming to life again and again. We can go in this and the concept of god in the vedas in another thread if you wish.

Now thats it im cream crackered after this rebuttal, a shame though, you probably wont read it all, or the links etc and will just flog me off with some random excuse like i simply dont hear the other side etc and then you may get personal like some poeple have done in the past and recently, to derail the thread and get it closed, i hope you dont adopt that method.

Now thats a rebuttal Maharajah.....

Hmm i liked that i think it was qutie imformative and ive got to agree with oz that hindu culture did not effect the formation of islam and the holy Khabba was not a former hindu temple all you have to do is look at the design to see that in general i dont think that this thread should be closed im learning way to much

[Ozi]

Hmm i liked that i think it was qutie imformative and ive got to agree with oz that hindu culture did not effect the formation of islam and the holy Khabba was not a former hindu temple all you have to do is look at the design to see that in general i dont think that this thread should be closed im learning way to much

Thank you, i think it is an informative thread. what i found interesting was prisha's idea of the ancient hindu empire. I too believe that this ancient empire was huge, maybe a rival to atlantis at one time. Within the hindu scriptures in ancient sanskrit, you have reference to modern technology and ideas aswell as scientific concepts. The only unfortunate thing in my opinion is that, much of the original works in the vast library of hindu scriptures, some have lost everything it once was originally. The ones that have been well preserved seem to be the source for information on several things. But that is different dicussion. I remember one of my earliest participation in UM was to debate modern technology in the hindu scriptures, you had the usual suspects that we see all the time as skeptos, even then i realised those skeptos, dont really know which translation they are relating to and instead were just trying to find anything to oppose me. it was an interesting thread.

If anyone has more to add on this please do so, otherwise are we accepting that muhammed was foretold in the hindu scriptures.

[The Maharaja]

I think alot more effort should be made towards decyphering the ancient indus valley texts i think they would be very informative

[The_Spartan]

I think alot more effort should be made towards decyphering the ancient indus valley texts i think they would be very informative

Its my understanding that the vedas or any of the hindu scared/mythological boosk were never related to the indus valley script.

The indus valley script is proto-dravidian.

The closest script that is related to the indus valley script is the tamil script.

The Russian scholar Yuri V. Knorozov (or Knorosov), who has edited a multi-volumed corpus of the inscriptions, surmises that the symbols represent a logosyllabic script, with an underlying Dravidian language as the most likely linguistic substrate.[5] Knorozov is perhaps best known for his decisive contributions towards the decipherment of the Maya script, a pre-Columbian writing system of the Mesoamerican Maya civilization. Knorozov's investigations were the first to conclusively demonstrate that the Maya script was logosyllabic in character, an interpretation now confirmed in the subsequent decades of Mayanist epigraphic research.

The Finnish scholar Asko Parpola repeated several of these suggested Indus script readings. The discovery in Tamil Nadu of a late Neolithic (early 2nd millennium BC, i.e. post-dating Harappan decline) stone celt adorned with Indus script markings has been considered to be significant for this identification.[6][7]

But we can never be sure, since the indus script has never been decipehered.

[Ozi]

Interesting stuff. I have stuck to the vedas, because to date they are the most sacred and amongst the oldest scriptures available to us today. The indus Valley inscriptions are interesting and worth a look. I will see what i can dig up on the topic.

[prisha]

Dialogue between Raj and Pundit VaidPrakash Upadhyaya

Raj : Namaskar Panditji.

Pundit : Assalama Lekum Bhaijaan ! Oh ho. I am sorry; I get calls only from Islamic Websites and Islam Enthusiasts who want to prove to world kalki is muhamed

Raj : My name is Raj. I have an M.A from Sri Venkateswara University, Tirupathi. I am Working as Asst Education officer for TTD(Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanam). They are

also big publishers of Hindu Religious material. I am holding in my hand 'kalki purana' published by them. I understand, I heard from a muslim colleague you wrote a book saying kalki is Muhamed

Pundit : yes I did. it is my token of service to great Hindu faith

aj : is it so but it looks like other way around

Pundit : but it is how I planned

Raj : so what is your so called plan

Pundit: I wanted to start this comparison with their fore fathers religion, as you know all muslims in India were once belonged to Vedic religion

Raj: how does it help sanathana dharma

Pundit : this is just for people who already were not happy with islam and want to find out a way to correlate something which will make more sense

Raj : as we all know the Vedas are the oldest scriptures in world. some estimate them to be 1.3 billions of years old. Acharyas tell them as ageless as told by 'Vedas' themselves

Pundit : Vedas have so much to offer but some people who are unable to see it, so I wanted to tell them in a way it makes sense to islam followers. This is not for Hindus who have

knowledge of the truth.

Raj : so they are saying in a twisted fashion the truth, it is amusing to read, for example

they are saying Kalki's father name is 'Vishnu Bhagath' and the meaning of that name

is 'slave of allah' or abdulah, but in truth his name is 'Vishnu Yasha' which means

glory to Vishnu! is it not

Pundit : yes it is. but it is never written for true Hindus who had read 'Bhagavatha Purana' or 'kalki purana' or 'Vishnu purana'. let me give you the true meanings

kalki's Father - Vishnu Yasha - Glory to Vishnu

kalki's Mother - Sumathi - Good Sense or Intelligence

kalki's home - Shambala - A Village in South India

kalki's guru - Parushurama - incarnation of Lord Vishnu

kalki's place of study - holy mountain 'Mahendra Parvata'

and also remember I have intentionally left few important details like

kalki's wives - Padmavathi and Roma

Kalkis Brothers - 3 of them - kavi, praagna, sumanthraka

kalki's sons : Jaya and Vijaya

kalki's horse - devadatta

I know for these they won’t be able to correlate so I left them out

Raj: you haven't still told me what your intention of this charade is

Pundit : I want to sow seeds so that when these islam followers realize that there is no one to protect them, they will remember this saying kalki is muhamed and know

that kalki is Lord Vishnu's Avatar. lord Vishnu who promised us in Bhagavad-Gita as

Lord Krishna he will be born again and again to help us

"Yada Yada Hi Dharmasya

Glanirva Bhavathi Bharatha,

Abhyuthanam Adharmaysya

Tadatmanam Srijami Aham".

Bhagavad Gita (Chapter IV-7)

"Whenever there is decay

of righteousness O! Bharatha

And a rise of unrighteousness

then I manifest Myself!"

so they will start praying to Lord Vishnu and come back to their forefathers

religion of Hinduism.

Raj : Not bad for a guy who is a professor in a fictious university called

'Illahabad University'. ha

Pundit : I want this whole charade to be inconsistent to any person with any sense

and little research for facts. This is only to fanatics who just want to believe

they can twist anything to their needs with no truth in it.

Raj : so you know muslim sites wont like this answer and i see the demise of your book quotes from their websites

Pandit : dont ever underestimate for their passion for twisting facts, i am counting on that factor

Raj : I remember Thomas Nagel's philosophical essay 'what is it to be a bat'. you

will never know it because you can never be a bat. I should add they will never know

to be a Hindu because they can never be Hindus.

Pundit : I have lot of hope on this Rajji! it is a slow start but Vishnu will do the

rest. he is 'leela nataka sutrdhari'. have a good day. i hope onday all the allah's followers will follow the true path of vishnu.

Edited March 4, 2008 by prisha

[prisha]

Right before i post you the translation from Pandit Rajaram, i will address your points.

Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar is a god [Vishnu] who has been reincarnated 10 times and not a mere messenger. Muhammad claimed to be a messenger and would have been grossly offended by the suggestion that he was the incarnation of a Pagan god. There is a huge difference between the concept of Prophethood in Islam and the concept of the Avatar in Hinduism and one cannot impose an Islamic meaning on a Hindu title.

You see thats the hindus believing that Kalki Avatar is a god, Vishnu. You see most hindus dont really know the concept of god which is actaully in the vedas. If you want i can bring verse from credible sources, which will show the true nature of god in the vedas, and see how similar it is to islam, judaism, and even christianity, although the latter, in some cases practise paganistic beliefs, like the trinity. We dont believe in re-incarnation, muhammed was the kalki avatar, with out even imposing islamic meaning on a hindu one, i can show that you are

only supposed to worship one god, make no idols, or pictures of him etc. But its different topic set it up and i will address it.

So you are trying to enlighten hindus about their own faith and make them better hindus. so what do u know about vedas and i am afraid your credible sources are going to come from islamic websites (you got A+ for cut and paste) whose whole purpose is proselytizing. so when you see so many similarities of hinduism with people of book what is this need to prove muhamed as kalki. Who are you to tell millions of people who followed sanathana dharma for hundreds of generations that their practices are wrong. anyway atleast let me give you a primer on vedas from hindu sites

Regarding Vedas : This is a discourse of His Holiness ‘Parama Pujya Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswathi’ of Kanch Kamakiti Peetham, kancheepuram, India.

The Vedic literature is composed of many books. The oldest texts are the Rig-veda, Yajur-veda, Sama-veda, and the Atharva-veda..

"Anantah vai Vedah", the Vedas are unending. The seers have, however, revealed to us only a small part of them but it is sufficient for our welfare in this world and next. We are not going to create many universes like Brahma that we should know all the Vedas. We need to know only as many as are necessary to ensure our good in this world.

In each of the four Vedas there are different "pathas" and "pathabhedas" or "pathantaras". Each pathantra or each version is called a sakha or recension. The various sakhas are branches of the Vedic tree, indeed a great tree like the Adyar banyan [in Madras]. The branches big and small belong to one or another of the four Vedas, Rg, Yajur, Saman and Atharvan.

In the Rgveda itself the Yajurveda and the Samaveda are mentioned in a number of passages. In Purusasuktha occuring in the Rgveda (tenth mandala, 90th suktha) there is a reference to the other Vedas. We learn from this, don't we, that one Veda does not belong to a period prior to, or later than another?

I stated that each recension consisted of the Samhita, the Brahmana and the Aranyaka. When we speak of "Veda-adhyayana" (the study or chanting of the Vedas) we normally have in mind the Samhita part only. When we bring out a book consisting of the Samhita alone of the Rgveda we still call it the "Rgveda". The Samhita is indeed the very basis of asakha, its life-breath. The word means "systematised and collected together".

The Rgveda Samhita as all in the form of poetry. What came to be saled "sloka" in later times is the"rk" of the Vedas. "Rk" means a "stotra", a hymn. The Rgveda Samhita is made up entirely of hymns in praise of various deities. Each rk is a mantra and a number of rks in praise of a deity constitute a sukta.

The Rgveda, that is its Samhita, has 10, 170 rks and 1, 028 suktas. It is divided into ten mandalas or eight astakas. It begins with a sukta to Agni and concludes with as ukta to the same deity. The concluding sukta of the Rgveda contains a hymn "May mankind be of one mind, " it goes. "May it have a common goal. May all hearts be united in love. And with the mind and the goal being one may all of us live in happiness. "

Yajur Veda

"Yajus" is derived from the word "yaj" meaning "to worship". "Yajna" (as we have already noted) is also from the same root. Just as "rk" means a hymn, "yajus" means the worship associated with sacrifices. The chief purpose of the Yajurveda is the practical application of the Rgvedic hymns in the religious work called yajna or sacrifice. The Yajurveda describes in prose the actual conduct of the rites. If the Rgveda serves the purpose of adoring deities verbally the Yajurveda serves the same purpose through rites.

The Yajurveda is different from the other Vedas in that it may be said to be divided into two Vedas which are considerably different from one another: the Sukla-Yajurveda and the Krsna-Yajurveda. "Sukla" means white, while "Krsna" means black. The Samhita of the Sukls-Yajurveda is also called "Vajasaneyi Samhita". "Vajasaneyi" is one of the names of the sun god. It was the sun god who taught this Samhita to the sage Yajnavalkya. In the Krsna-Yajurveda, the Samhita and the abrahmanas do not form entirely different parts. The Brahmanas are appended here and there to the mantras of the Samhita.

The glory of the Rgveda is that it is replete with hymns to all deities. Scholars are of the opinion, besides, it contains teachings for our life. The wedding rites are based on tht part of this Veda which pertains to the marriage of the daughter of the sun god. There are also passages of a dramatic character like the dialogue between Pururavas and Urvasi. In later times Kalidasa based one of his dramatic works on this [the Vikramorvasiyam]. The hymn to Usas, the goddess of dawn, and similiar mantras are considered to be of high poetic beauty by men of aesthetic discernment.

Since the Rgveda is placed first among the four Vedas it must naturally have an exalted position. It is the matrix of the works (karma) of the Yajurveda and the songs of the Samaveda.

The importance of the Yajurveda is that it systematises the karmayoga, the path of works. The Tattitiriya Samhita of the Krsna-Yajurveda deals with sacrifices like darsa-purnamasa, somayaga, vajapeya, rajasuya, asvamedha. Besides it has a number of hymnic mantras of a high order not found in the Rgveda. For example, the popular Sri Rudra mantras are from the Yajurveda. The Rgveda does contain five suktas known as "Pancarudra", but when we mention Sri Rudra we at once think of the mantras to this deity in the Yajurveda. That is why a supreme Saiva like Appayya Diksita laments that he was not born a Yajurvedin - he was a Samavedin.

Sama Veda

"Sama" denotes that which brings equipoise or tranquillity to the mind. There are four well-known ways of dealing with an opponent or rival: sama, dana, bheda and danda. The first method is that of conciliation, making an enemy a friend through affection. THe Samaveda enables us to befriend the divine forces, even the Paramatman. How do we make a person happy? By praising him. If the panegyricis set to music and sung he would be doubly pleased. Many of the mantras of the Rgveda are intoned with a cadence in the Samaveda; thus we have Samagana. While the rks are chanted with the tonal differences of udatta, anudatta and svarita, the samans are intoned musically according to certain rules. Our music, based on the seven notes (saptasvara), has its origin in Samaveda. All deities are pleased with Samagana. We become recipients of their grace not only through the offerings made in the sacrificial fire but through the intoning of the samans by the udgata. Samagana is particularly important to soma sacrifices in which the essence of the soma plant is offered as oblation.

Though the samans are indeed Rgvedic mantras, they are specially capable of pleasing the deities and creating Atmic uplift because they are intoned musically. This is what gives distinction to the Samaveda. Sri Krsna Paramatman says in the Gita : "Vedanam Samavedosmi"(Of Vedas Iam samaveda). The Lord is everything, including good as well as bad. Even so, as he speaks to Arjuna about the things in which his divine quality specially shines forth, he mentions the Samaveda among them. In the Lalitha-Sahasranama (The One Thousand Names of the Goddess Lalitha), Amba has the name of "Samagana-priya (one who delights in Samagana); she is not called "Rgveda-priya" or "Yajurveda-priya". Syamasastri refers to the Goddess Minaksi as "Samagana-vinodhini" in one of his compositions. In the Siva-astottaram ["Siva astottara-satam, the 108 names of Siva], Siva is worshipped thus:"Samapriyaya namah" And all three have a special relationship with Samaveda.

Atharvana Veda

"Atharvan" means a purohita, a priest. There was a sage with this name. That which was revealed by the seer Athrvan is the Atharvaveda. It contains mantras with which one wards off misfortunes and disasters and brings about the destruction of one's enemies. The Atharvaveda is a mixture of prose and poetry. The mantras of other Vedas also serve the same purpose as those of the Atharvaveda. But what is special about the latter is that it has references to deities not mentioned in the others and has mantras addressed to fierce spirits. What has come to be known as "mantrikam" (magical rites) has its source in this Veda.

But it is to be noted that the Atharvaveda also contains mantras that speak of lofty truths. It has the Prithvi-sukta, the hymn to earth, which glorifies this planet with all its creatures.

The Atharvaveda is noteworthy for the fact that the brahma, the supervisor of sacrifices, is its representative .But we must remember that of the ten important Upanishads three belong to this Veda - Prasna, Mundaka and Mandukya. It is believed that those who seek liberation need nothing to realise their goal other than Madukya Upanishad.

Gayatri is the mantra of mantras and it is believed to be the essence of the three Vedas - which means that the Atharvaveda is excluded here. According to one view, before he starts learning the Atharvaveda, a brahmacharin must go through a second upanayana ceremony. Generaly, the Gayatri imparted to a child at Brahmopadesa ceremony is called "Tripada- Gayatri" - it is so called because it has three padas or three feet. Each foot encompasses the essential spirit of one Veda, The Atharvaveda has a seperate Gayatri and if people belonging to other Vedas want to learn this Veda they have to go through a second upanayana to receive instruction in it. For the followers of the first three Vedas, however there is only one Gayatri and those belonging to any one of them can learn the other two Vedas without another upanayana.

Nearly every hero in the ancient world used swords and horses, therefore, this criteria doesn't point out anyone in particular. However, some Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar will be a machine-man, who will come to earth on a white horse with a blazing sword in his hands. This future incarnation of Vishnu will appear at the end of Kali Yuga (evil eon) and would solve the problem of Adharma (unrighteousness). He will punish all evil people in this world, destroy the world, and recreate a golden age of peace and harmony. Clearly, Muhammad did none of these things.

Clearly you dont know islamic history. The advent of islam, and its spread was so quick, it ruled from indonesia to spain, in between you had no borders and great wealth, materially and knowledge wise, we progressed in science, by ourselves and translating ancient greek, latin and sanskrit works in india, and then made further progressions on them. This allowed islamic empire to flourish, the europeans, used to send the roylity to study in islamic universities in morroca and spain and baghdad. Islam brought the reneissance to europe, with out it, it would have remained in the dark ages for longer, when most of the world was in the dark ages, especially in europe, the islamic empire was progressing like no other. So it did create a golden age. The rest of what you say is opinion and intpretation of some translation. I can comment on that.

Prisha : Oh Pluzee What are you talking about ozi. Are you day dreaming of an alternate Islamic history out of this earth. These are the sample of atrocities of islam on india alone

Alain Danielou in Histoire de la Inde: "From the time Muslims started arriving, around 632 AD, the history of India becomes a long, monotonous series of murders, massacres, spoilations, destructions. It is, as usual, in the name of 'a holy war' of their faith, of their sole God, that the barbarians have destroyed civilisations, wiped out entire races."

The Magnitude of Muslim Atrocities

(Ghazanavi to Amir Timur)

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The world famous historian, Will Durant has written in his Story of Civilisation that "the Mohammedan conquest of India was probably the bloodiest story in history".

India before the advent of Islamic imperialism was not exactly a zone of peace. There were plenty of wars fought by Hindu princes. But in all their wars, the Hindus had observed some time-honoured conventions sanctioned by the Sastras. The Brahmins and the Bhikshus were never molested. The cows were never killed. The temples were never touched. The chastity of women was never violated. The non-combatants were never killed or captured. A human habitation was never attacked unless it was a fort. The civil population was never plundered. War booty was an unknown item in the calculations of conquerors. The martial classes who clashed, mostly in open spaces, had a code of honor. Sacrifice of honor for victory or material gain was deemed as worse than death.

Islamic imperialism came with a different code--the Sunnah of the Prophet. It required its warriors to fall upon the helpless civil population after a decisive victory had been won on the battlefield. It required them to sack and burn down villages and towns after the defenders had died fighting or had fled. The cows, the Brahmins, and the Bhikshus invited their special attention in mass murders of non-combatants. The temples and monasteries were their special targets in an orgy of pillage and arson. Those whom they did not kill, they captured and sold as slaves. The magnitude of the booty looted even from the bodies of the dead, was a measure of the success of a military mission. And they did all this as mujahids (holy warriors) and ghazls (kafir-killers) in the service of Allah and his Last Prophet.

Hindus found it very hard to understand the psychology of this new invader. For the first time in their history, Hindus were witnessing a scene which was described by Kanhadade Prabandha (1456 AD) in the following words:

"The conquering army burnt villages, devastated the land, plundered people's wealth, took Brahmins and children and women of all classes captive, flogged with thongs of raw hide, carried a moving prison with it, and converted the prisoners into obsequious Turks."

That was written in remembrance of Alauddin Khalji's invasion of Gujarat in the year l298 AD. But the gruesome game had started three centuries earlier when Mahmud Ghaznavi had vowed to invade India every year in order to destroy idolatry, kill the kafirs, capture prisoners of war, and plunder vast wealth for which India was well-known.

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MAHMUD AND MASOOD GHAZNAVI

In 1000 AD Mahmud defeated Raja Jaipal, a scion of the Hindu Shahiya dynasty of Kabul. This dynasty had been for long the doorkeeper of India in the Northwest. Mahmud collected 250,000 dinars as indemnity. That perhaps was normal business of an empire builder. But in 1004 AD he stormed Bhatiya and plundered the place. He stayed there for some time to convert the Hindus to Islam with the help of mullahs he had brought with him.

In 1008 AD he captured Nagarkot (Kangra). The loot amounted to 70,000,000 dirhams in coins and 700,400 mans of gold and silver, besides plenty of precious stones and embroidered cloths. In 1011 AD he plundered Thanesar which was undefended, destroyed many temples, and broke a large number of idols. The chief idol, that of Chakraswamin, was taken to Ghazni and thrown into the public square for defilement under the feet of the faithful. According to Tarikh-i-Yamini of Utbi, Mahmud's secretary,

"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously [at Thanesar] that the stream was discolored, notwithstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise he to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."

In 1013 AD Mahmud advanced against Nandana where the Shahiya king, Anandapal, had established his new capital. The Hindus fought very hard but lost. Again, the temples were destroyed, and innocent citizens slaughtered. Utbi provides an account of the plunder and the prisoners of war:

"The Sultan returned in the rear of immense booty, and slaves were so plentiful that they became very cheap and men of respectability in their native land were degraded by becoming slaves of common shopkeepers. But this is the goodness of Allah, who bestows honor on his own religion and degrades infidelity."

The road was now clear for an assault on the heartland of Hindustan. In December 1018 AD Mahmud crossed the Yamuna, collected 1,000,000 dirhams from Baran (Bulandshahar), and marched to Mahaban in Mathura district. Utbi records:

"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."

Mathura was the next victim. Mahmud seized five gold idols weighing 89,300 missals and 200 silver idols. According to Utbi, "The Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naptha and fire, and levelled with the ground." The pillage of the city continued for 20 days. Mahmud now turned towards Kanauj which had been the seat of several Hindu dynasties. Utbi continues: "In Kanauj there were nearly ten thousand temples... Many of the inhabitants of the place fled in consequence of witnessing the fate of their deaf and dumb idols. Those who did not fly were put to death. The Sultan gave his soldiers leave to plunder and take prisoners."

The Brahmins of Munj, which was attacked next, fought to the last man after throwing their wives and children into fire. The fate of Asi was sealed when its ruler took fright and fled. According to Utbi, ".... the Sultan ordered that his five forts should be demolished from their foundations, the inhabitants buried in their ruins, and the soldiers of the garrison plundered, slain and captured".

Shrawa, the next important place to be invaded, met the same fate. Utbi concludes:

"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire. The friends of Allah searched the bodies of the slain for three days in order to obtain booty...The booty amounted in gold and silver, rubies and pearls nearly to three hundred thousand dirhams, and the number of prisoners may be conceived from the fact that each was sold for two to ten dirhams. These were afterwards taken to Ghazni and merchants came from distant cities to purchase them, so that the countries of Mawaraun-Nahr, Iraq and Khurasan were filled with them, and the fair and the dark, the rich and the poor, were commingled in one common slavery."

Mahmud's sack of Somnath is too well-known to be retold here. What needs emphasizing is that the fragments of the famous Sivalinga were carried to Ghazni. Some of them were turned into steps of the Jama Masjid in that city. The rest were sent to Mecca, Medina, and Baghdad to be desecrated in the same manner.

Mahmud's son Masud tried to follow in the footsteps of his father. In 1037 AD he succeeded in sacking the fort of Hansi which was defended very bravely by the Hindus. The Tarikh-us-Subuktigin records: "The Brahmins and other high ranking men were slain, and their women and children were carried away captive, and all the treasure which was found was distributed among the army."

Masud could not repeat the performance due to his preoccupations elsewhere.

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MUHAMMAD GHORI AND HIS LEUTENANTS

Invasion of India by Islamic imperialism was renewed by Muhmmad Ghori in the last quarter of the 12th century. After Prithiviraj Chauhan had been defeated in 1192 AD, Ghori took Ajmer by assault.

According the Taj-ul-Ma'sir of Hasan Nizami, "While the Sultan remained at Ajmer, he destroyed the pillars and foundations of the idol temples and built in their stead mosques and colleges and precepts of Islam, and the customs of the law were divulged and established."

Next year he defeated Jayachandra of Kanauj. A general massacre, rapine, and pillage followed. The Gahadvad treasuries at Asni and Varanasi were plundered. Hasan Nizami rejoices that "in Benares which is the centre of the country of Hind, they destroyed one thousand temples and raised mosques on their foundations".

According to Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir, "The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children, and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."

The women and children were spared so that they could be enslaved and sold all over the Islamic world. It may be added that the Buddhist complex at Sarnath was sacked at this time, and the Bhikshus were slaughtered.

Ghori's lieutenant Qutbuddin Aibak was also busy meanwhile. Hasan Nizami writes that after the suppression of a Hindu revolt at Kol (modern day Aligarh) in 1193 AD, Aibak raised "three bastions as high as heaven with their heads, and their carcases became food for beasts of prey. The tract was freed from idols and idol worship and the foundations of infidelism were destroyed."

In 1194 AD Aibak destroyed 27 Hindu temples at Delhi and built the Quwwat-ul-lslam mosque with their debris. According to Nizami, Aibak "adorned it with the stones and gold obtained from the temples which had been demolished by elephants".

In 1195 AD the Mher tribe of Ajmer rose in revolt, and the Chaulukyas of Gujarat came to their assistance. Aibak had to invite reinforcements from Ghazni before he could meet the challenge. In 1196 AD he advanced against Anahilwar Patan, the capital of Gujarat. Nizami writes that after Raja Karan was defeated and forced to flee, "fifty thousand infidels were dispatched to hell by the sword" and "more than twenty thousand slaves, and cattle beyond all calculation fell into the hands of the victors".

The city was sacked, its temples demolished, and its palaces plundered. On his return to Ajmer, Aibak destroyed the Sanskrit College of Visaladeva, and laid the foundations of a mosque which came to be known as 'Adhai Din ka Jhompada'.

Conquest of Kalinjar in 1202 AD was Aibak's crowning achievement. Nizami concludes: "The temples were converted into mosques... Fifty thousand men came under the collar of slavery and the plain became black as pitch with Hindus."

A free-lance adventurer, Muhammad Bakhtyar Khalji, was moving further east. In 1200 AD he sacked the undefended university town of Odantpuri in Bihar and massacred the Buddhist monks in the monasteries. In 1202 AD he took Nadiya by surprise. Badauni records in his Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh that "property and booty beyond computation fell into the hands of the Muslims and Muhammad Bakhtyar having destroyed the places of worship and idol temples of the infidels founded mosques and Khanqahs".

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THE SLAVE (MAMLUK) SULTANS

Shamsuddin Iltutmish who succeeded Aibak at Delhi invaded Malwa in 1234 AD. He destroyed an ancient temple at Vidisha. Badauni reports in his 'Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh':

"Having destroyed the idol temple of Ujjain which had been built six hundred years previously, and was called Mahakal, he levelled it to its foundations, and threw down the image of Rai Vikramajit from whom the Hindus reckon their era, and brought certain images of cast molten brass and placed them on the ground in front of the doors of mosques of old Delhi, and ordered the people of trample them under foot."

Muslim power in India suffered a serious setback after Iltutmish. Balkan had to battle against a revival of Hindu power. The Katehar Rajputs of what came to be known as Rohilkhand in later history, had so far refused to submit to Islamic imperialism. Balkan led an expedition across the Ganges in 1254 AD. According to Badauni,

"In two days after leaving Delhi, he arrived in the midst of the territory of Katihar and put to death every male, even those of eight years of age, and bound the women."

But in spite of such wanton cruelty, Muslim power continued to decline till the Khaljis revived it after 1290 AD.

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THE KHALJIS

Jalaluddin Khalji led an expedition to Ranthambhor in 1291 AD. On the way he destroyed Hindu temples at Chain. The broken idols were sent to Delhi to be spread before the gates of the Jama Masjid. His nephew Alauddin led an expedition to Vidisha in 1292 AD. According to Badauni in Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh, Alauddin "brought much booty to the Sultan and the idol which was the object of worship of the Hindus, he caused to be cast in front of the Badaun gate to be trampled upon by the people. The services of Alauddin were highly appreciated, the jagir of Oudh (or Avadh - Central U.P.) also was added to his other estates."

Alauddin became Sultan in 1296 AD after murdering his uncle and father-in-law, Jalaluddin. In 1298 AD he equipped an expedition to Gujarat under his generals Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan. The invaders plundered the ports of Surat and Cambay. The temple of Somnath, which had been rebuilt by the Hindus, was plundered and the idol taken to Delhi for being trodden upon by the Muslims. The whole region was subjected to fire and sword, and Hindus were slaughtered en masse. Kampala Devi, the queen of Gujarat, was captured along with the royal treasury, brought to Delhi and forced into Alauddin's harem. The doings of the Malik Naib during his expedition to South India in 1310-1311 AD have already mentioned in earlier parts.

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THE TUGHLAQS

Muslim power again suffered a setback after the death of Alauddin Khalji in 1316 AD. But it was soon revived by the Tughlaqs. By now most of the famous temples over the length and breadth of the Islamic occupation in India had been demolished, except in Orissa and Rajasthan which had retained their independence. By now most of the rich treasuries had been plundered and shared between the Islamic state and its swordsmen. Firuz Shah Tughlaq led an expedition to Orissa in 1360 AD. He destroyed the temple of Jagannath at Puri, and desecrated many other Hindu shrines. According to 'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' which he himself wrote or dictated,

"Allah who is the only true God and has no other emanation, endowed the king of Islam with the strength to destroy this ancient shrine on the eastern sea-coast and to plunge it into the sea, and after its destruction he ordered the image of Jagannath to be perforated, and disgraced it by casting it down on the ground. They dug out other idols which were worshipped by the polytheists in the kingdom of Jajnagar and overthrew them as they did the image of Jagannath, for being laid in front of the mosques along the path of the Sunnis and the way of the 'musallis' (Muslim congregation for namaz) and stretched them in front of the portals of every mosque, so that the body and sides of the images might be trampled at the time of ascent and descent, entrance and exit, by the shoes on the feet of the Muslims."

After the sack of the temples in Orissa, Firoz Shah Tughlaq attacked an island on the sea-coast where "nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations". The swordsmen of Islam turned "the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers".

A worse fate overtook the Hindu women. Sirat-i-Firuz Shahs records: "Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."

Still more horrible scenes were enacted by Firuz Shah Tughlaq at Nagarkot (Kangra) where he sacked the shrine of Jvalamukhi. Firishta records that the Sultan "broke the idols of Jvalamukhi, mixed their fragments with the flesh of cows and hung them in nose bags round the necks of Brahmins. He sent the principal idol as trophy to Medina."

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THE PROVINCIAL MUSLIM SATRAPS

In 1931 AD the Muslims of Gujarat complained to Nasiruddin Muhammad, the Tughlaq Sultan of Delhi, that the local governor, Kurhat-ul-Mulk, was practising tolerance towards the Hindus. The Sultan immediately appointed Muzzaffar Khan as the new Governor. He became independent after the death of the Delhi Sultan and assumed the title of Muzzaffar Shah in 1392 AD. Next year he led an expidition to Somnath and sacked the temple which the Hindus had built once again. He killed many Hindus to chastise them for this "impudence," and raised a mosque on the site of the ancient temple. The Hindus, however, restarted restoring the temple soon after. In 1401 AD Muzaffar came back with a huge army. He again killed many Hindus, demolished the temple once more, and erected another mosque.

Muzaffar was succeeded by his grandson, Ahmad Shah, in 1411 AD. Three years later Ahmad appointed a special darogah to destroy all temples throughout Gujarat. In 1415 AD Ahmad invaded Sidhpur where he destroyed the images in Rudramahalaya, and converted the grand temple into a mosque. Sidhpur was renamed Sayyadpur.

Mahmud Begrha who became the Sultan of Gujarat in 1458 AD was the worst fanatic of this dynasty. One of his vassals was the Mandalika of Junagadh who had never withheld the regular tribute. Yet in 1469 AD Mahmud invaded Junagadh. In reply to the Mandalika's protests, Mahmud said that he was not interested in money as much as in the spread of Islam. The Mandalika was forcibly converted to Islam and Junagadh was renamed Mustafabad. In 1472 AD Mahmud attacked Dwarka, destroyed the local temples, and plundered the city. Raja Jaya Singh, the ruler of Champaner, and his minister were murdered by Mahmud in cold blood for refusing to embrace Islam after they had been defeated and their country pillaged and plundered. Champaner was renamed Mahmudabad.

Mahmud Khalji of Malwa (1436-69 AD) also destroyed Hindu temples and built mosques on their sites. He heaped many more insults on the Hindus. Ilyas Shah of Bengal (1339-1379 AD) invaded Nepal and destroyed the temple of Svayambhunath at Kathmandu. He also invaded Orissa, demolished many temples, and plundered many places. The Bahmani sultans of Gulbarga and Bidar considered it meritorious to kill a hundred thousand Hindu men, women, and children every year. They demolished and desecrated temples all over South India.

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AMlR TIMUR

The climax came during the invasion of Timur in 1399 AD. He starts by quoting the Quran in his Tuzk-i-Timuri: "O Prophet, make war upon the infidels and unbelievers, and treat them severely."

He continues: "My great object in invading Hindustan had been to wage a religious war against the infidel Hindus...[so that] the army of Islam might gain something by plundering the wealth and valuables of the Hindus." To start with he stormed the fort of Kator on the border of Kashmir. He ordered his soldiers "to kill all the men, to make prisoners of women and children, and to plunder and lay waste all their property". Next, he "directed towers to be built on the mountain of the skulls of those obstinate unbelievers". Soon after, he laid siege to Bhatnir defended by Rajputs. They surrendered after some fight, and were pardoned. But Islam did not bind Timur to keep his word given to the "unbelievers". His Tuzk-i-Timuri records:

"In a short space of time all the people in the fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground."

At Sarsuti, the next city to be sacked, "all these infidel Hindus were slain, their wives and children were made prisoners and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors". Timur was now moving through (modern day) Haryana, the land of the Jats. He directed his soldiers to "plunder and destroy and kill every one whom they met". And so the soldiers "plundered every village, killed the men, and carried a number of Hindu prisoners, both male and female".

Loni which was captured before he arrived at Delhi was predominantly a Hindu town. But some Muslim inhabitants were also taken prisoners. Timur ordered that "the Musulman prisoners should be separated and saved, but the infidels should all be dispatched to hell with the proselytizing sword".

By now Timur had captured 100,000 Hindus. As he prepared for battle against the Tughlaq army after crossing the Yamuna, his Amirs advised him "that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolators and enemies of Islam at liberty". Therefore, "no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword".

Tuzk-i-Timuri continues:

"I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. One hundred thousand infidels, impious idolators, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiruddin Umar, a counselor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives."

The Tughlaq army was defeated in the battle that ensued next day. Timur entered Delhi and learnt that a "great number of Hindus with their wives and children, and goods and valuables, had come into the city from all the country round".

He directed his soldiers to seize these Hindus and their property. Tuzk-i-Timuri concludes:

"Many of them (Hindus) drew their swords and resisted...The flames of strife were thus lighted and spread through the whole city from Jahanpanah and Siri to Old Delhi, burning up all it reached. The Hindus set fire to their houses with their own hands, burned their wives and children in them and rushed into the fight and were killed...On that day, Thursday, and all the night of Friday, nearly 15,000 Turks were engaged in slaying, plundering and destroying. When morning broke on Friday, all my army ...went off to the city and thought of nothing but killing, plundering and making prisoners....The following day, Saturday the 17th, all passed in the same way, and the spoil was so great.that each man secured from fifty to a hundred prisoners, men, women, and children. There was no man who took less than twenty. The other booty was immense in rubies, diamonds, garnets, pearls, and other gems and jewels; ashrafis, tankas of gold and silver of the celebrated Alai coinage: vessels of gold and silver; and brocades and silks of great value. Gold and silver ornaments of Hindu women were obtained in such quantities as to exceed all account. Excepting the quarter of the Saiyids, the Ulama and the other Musulmans, the whole city was sacked."

I also have a question for "ozi", if kalki is muhammed (i do not think kalki is here yet so it is going to be tough to be accepted) but i am curious how about the previous 9 avatars of Lord Maha Vishnu. are they correlated with Islam too. please do provide a link and i would enjoy reading them immensely

The Kalki avatar is muhammed, as for the other 9, i recall that even jesus was mentioned, but the other could have been prophets of god too. Sometimes god sent prophet after prophet, sometime two at once, or more, like when jesus was around, you had john the baptist, thts just one example, both were prophets of god. They simply might be referring to other prophets of god, like bhudda, jesus, moses maybe, i dont know, i need to do further research on them. But regarding the kalki, its the final, and if it the final messenger, only one man fits it, muhammed.

Prisha : OK ozi first let us understand what both ‘Avatar’ and ‘Prophet’ mean, so that we will know we are on the same page, like comparing apples to apples.

In Hindu philosophy, an avatar (also spelled as avatara) (Sanskrit: अवतार, avatāra), most commonly refers to the incarnation (bodily manifestation) of a divine being (deva), or the Supreme Being (God) onto planet Earth.

In religion, a prophet (or prophetess) is a person who has directly encountered the numinous or the divine and serves as an intermediary with humanity. In Abrahamic religion, a prophet is seen as a person who is encountered by, and speaks as a formal representative of God, and the intention of the message is always to effect a social change to conform to God's desired standards initially specified in the Torah dictated to Moses.

Now for the Prof. Pundit Vaid Parkash translation. Remember this guys is a professor and a pandit, what more do you want......

This so called Prof and Pundit Vaid Parkash upadhyaya seems to be existing in the Islamic website universe. I would love to see his own website with all the 8 pundits who vouched for the authenticity of his translation. His book I think is sold only in Pakistan and this Pandit Rajaram’s reference also I could not find. Do include in your rebuttal their websites (don’t include any Islamic sites with reference). In the same note I was thinking if at all these pundits belonged to islam and spoken against them like Salman Rushdie or Taslima nasreen have done there would be fatwas on the so called pandits heads or they would be dead for the sake of islam.

post the 'original' sanskrit slokas and and not english mistranslations, I have the kalki purana with me right now published by TTD (Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanam) who are renowned publishers of hindu religious material.

After the advent of Kalki kali yuga will end and krita yuga will start, as Mohamed has come and gone this is muslims ‘krita yuga’. So they are done with everything. Krita yuga is supposed to be the golden age where peace and tranquility is the norm of the day. Time is cyclical in the Vedic conception and there is never a last. After Kalki arrives, the Satya Yuga will begin, and Ashvathama will take the post as Vyasa Muni to guide the world in spiritual knowledge.

Para-1 : It has been wrongly said that Kalki has been mentioned in the Vedas. Nowhere in the four Vedas has Kalki been ever mentioned. Kalki has been mentioned in the “Puranas” – namely, the “Vishnu Puran” (one of the 18 major Puran) and the “Kalki Puran” (a minor Puran).

Para-2: I have not heard any hue and cry about this purported book in India in Hindi and I’m a Hindi speaking guy. About putting the author in jail had he been a Muslim, well many Muslims in India regularly write such things about Hindu religion and still go scot-free. And when Muslims write such things about Islam, their books get banned. Example – Salman Rushdie for writing “Satanic Verses”. You see, in a democracy, politicians are overtly conscious about minority rights but forget about majority sentiments.

Para-3: No one has ever heard of a “Pundit Vaid Parkash” in India. It’s a concocted name and there is surely no renowned Sanskrit scholar of that name in India. He is said to be holding an important portfolio in “Ilahabad University”, which I take to be Allahabad University. The website of that University is http://www.allduniv.edu . Check out the faculty list of that university (I hope he was not a student  ). No such person in the faculty. The guy writing the article thought he was clever. But everything’s online these days.

The said “Pundit Vaid Parkash” is said to be coming from the “Bengali race”. The fact is that Bengalis don’t have names like “Pundit Vaid Parkash”. Ask any Bengali. And why would a Bengali write a book in Hindi? He could have used English (which would have a greater readership all over India) or even Bengali.

Para-4: Here comes “Eight great Pundits”. Who are they and what are their names? Maybe the author of the article could not devise more Hindu names other than “Pundit Vaid Parkash”.

Para-5: “All Hindus should embrace Islam … should not wait for any other Kalki Autar” – Ha ! that’s the whole idea behind this (mis)information, isn’t it? Caught ya !

In Kalki Puran the birth place of Kalki is in a village called “Sambhal”. Do you think it is a codename for Mecca in some way? Beats me.

Para-6 (Sl.1) : It is the Purans, namely the Vishnu Puran and Kalki Puran and not the Vedas which said that Kalki will be the last Avtar of Vishnu. How does it make him Mohammed? Islamic texts themselves prophesize the second coming of the Christ (Isa, son of Mariam) in the future! This “well known scholar” cannot distinguish between the Vedas and the Puranas which every ordinary Hindu can !

Para-7 (Sl.2): Which Hindu prophecy says that Kalki will be born in an Island? Kalki Purana mentions that Kalki will be born in “Sambhal” village which is in the mainland; only during his marriage with “Padma” he will travel to the island “Sinhala”.

Para-8 (Sl.3): Absolute .! The father of Kalki, according to both Vishnu Puran and Kalki Puram is “Vishnujasha” (not Vishnu Bhagat, as the Islamic rumormongers claim) and the name of his mother is “Sumati”, not Somanib. To quote Kalki Puran -

Afterwards, Sumati, the wife of Vishnujasha became pregnant.... Kalki descended to earth (as a human) in the month of Baisakha on the 12th day after the full moon

~ Kalki Purana, I[2], Verses 11 and 15

Obviously, the twisting of the names had been done to make their names look like the translation of the names of the parents of Prophet Mohammad. Even that translation is faulty.

Para-9 (Sl.4): Every avtar of God is true and honest. That’s not the sole prerogative of Prophet Mohammed. As for Kalki living on olive and dates, this is completely fictitious. In fact in Kalki Purana Chapter III[17], Verse 43, Kalki and his wife is shown to have been feasting on rice, curd and other milk products.

Para-10 (Sl.5): All avtars are born in a noble and respected family (not dynasty – the term is applied to royal families. Kalki was not born in a royal family). How does that make Kalki the same person as Prophet Mohammed? Was Mohammed the only person to be born in a noble and respected family?

Para-11 (Sl.6): Kalki was taught by his “Guru” named ParushuRam in the “mahendra” mountain. Nowhere is it said in Kalki Puran that his Guru was a messenger of God. ParushuRam lived on a mountain – but nowhere is it mentioned that either he or Kalki lived in a cave.

Para-12 (Sl.7): Did Prophet Mohammed have two horses? Well Kalki will be provided only one. And I do not think Mohammed managed to ride to heaven and skies with his horses.

Para-13 (Sl.8): It’s a foregone conclusion that an incarnation of God on earth will have the powers of God. How does that make Kalki the same as Prophet Mohammed? By the way, Kalki is an incarnation of God Himself. As per Islamic tradition, Mohammed was God’s messenger.

Para-14 (Sl.9): A very foolish conclusion. Even today, military personnel in many parts of the world are taught horse riding and swordsmanship during their training as part of military tradition and valour. Does that mean that they fight with these weapons? In a prophecy, weapons of the future are described in the nearest term understandable at that time. Similar terms had been used by Nostradamus too in his prophecies. And if you think that Kalki Puran mentions Kalki fighting with ancient weapons, how about this?

Soon they entered the city of Bishasan, the capital of Koli, and burnt down the city using fiery missile. Alongwith the city, Koli too was burnt and his sons and relatives were destroyed.

~ Kalki Purana, III[7], Verses 9 & 10

I hope that the para-wise rebuttal above is sufficient to prove that the concocted article, purportedly written by a Hindu Pundit yet prominently being displayed in various Islamic websites is nothing but a trash of lies and was devised with an obvious ulterior motive in mind.

Before concluding I will provide some more quotes from Kalki Purana to show its modern context and that it could not have spoken about Prophet Mohammed –

1. Soon, Garga (an associate of Kalki) and his army killed 6000 Buddhist soldiers. Bharga and his soldiers killed and injured 11 million enemy soldiers and his mighty allies killed 2500 of them. Kobi along with his sons killed 2 million enemy soldiers, Pragya killed 1 million and Sumantu killed 5 million soldiers ~ Kalki Purana, II[7], Verses 5, 6, 8, 9

It seems that Kalki and his allies kill or injure an army which is almost 20 million strong. How many million men did Mohammed kill in his battles? In fact this type of huge army can be conceived in the modern times only. Also, did Mohammed ever fight this many Buddhists or anyone at all?

2. This island (Sinhala) is situated on the other side of the shore. The island has pure water and is full of people. Full of various types of Aircrafts and decorated with jewellery. The beauty of the island is enhanced by huge buildings and flags and gates decorated in front of them ~ Kalki Purana, II[1], Verses 39, 40, 41

The interesting part of the description of the island where Kalki's wife-to-be stays is that apart from the huge buildings that the island city has, its sky is also full of Aircrafts! Was there aircrafts in Prophet Mohammad’s time? In the later chapters of Kalki Puran, Kalki himself was said to be traveling on such an Aircraft. Did Mohammed do that?

3. Lord Kalki, along with his soldiers armed with various types of weapons engaged in war with Kok and Bikok. These two brothers are supreme demons, great fanatics and adept in the art of war. These brothers are intimately connected, powerful, hard to defeat and are even feared by the Gods.

~ Kalki Purana, III[6], Verses 43 & 44

The surprise elements here are the description of the war with brothers called "Kok and Bikok", who are allied with Koli. These are surely Gog and Magog described in the Biblical book of Revelations and "Yajooj and Majooj" described in the Islamic prophecies. This is the final nail in the coffin for the mischievous article. The Yajooj/Majooj war (Gog/Magog in the Bible) is the war, in which Christ during His second coming will fight during the end of the world. Prophet Mohammed did not fight this war. This war is predicted for the future in the Islamic and Biblical prophecies.

We can thus definitely conclude that Kalki will appear in the future and is not Prophet Mohammed by any means. Claiming so can only be the work of a deceiver. However, it is the Muslims who are only deceived by all these ., not the Hindus.

2. According to a prophecy of Hinduism, 'kalki autar' will be born in an island and that is the Arab territory which is known as 'jazeeratul Arab'.

Again I am telling you he is born in ‘Shambala’ Village and not on island. Read Kalki Puran not published by Islamic sites and proofs that came from Zakir Naik.

There is no concept of Messengers of God in Hinduism. However they have a concept of Avtaar. Avtaar is the Sanskrit term where ‘Av’ means down and ‘tr’ means passover. Thus Avtar means to descend down or to come down. The meaning of Avtaar in the oxford Dictionary is, “(In Hindu Mythology) the descent of a diety of a released soul to earth in bodily form”. In simple words, Avtaar means God Almighty coming down to earth in bodily form.

In Hinduism, It is believed that God Almighty comes down to the earth in some bodily form to protect the religion or to set an example or set the rules for the human beings.

There is no reference of Avtaars anywhere in the Vedas. The most sacred of the Hindu Scriptures i.e. Sruti. However it is found in the Smrti i.e. the Puranas and the Itihasas.

Prisha : Hey ozi if as per you Vedas does not have any reference of avatars then how come kalki/muhamed is mentioned, r u contradicting yourself that is the problem with cut and paste from different sites.

It is mentioned in the most popular and widely read book of Hinduism.

Bhagavad Geeta, Chapter 4, Verse 7-8

“Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendent of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion at that time I descend Myself”.

“To deliver the Pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I myself appear, millenium after millennium”.

Thus according to Bhagavad Geeta, God takes Avtaar to deliver the pious and annihilate miscreants and to reestablish the principles or religion.

According to the Puranas there are hundreds of Avtaars, but the Vishnu the sustainer has 10 Avtaars.

1. Matsya-avatar, in the form of a fish

2. Kurm-avatar, in the form of a tortoise

3. Varah-avatar, in the form of a boar or a pig

4. Narasimha-avatar, in the form of a monster, half man half lion

5. Vamana-avatar, in the form of a Brahmin dwarf named Vamana

6. Parashuaram-avatar, in the form of Parashurama

7. Rama-avatar, in the form of Rama, the hero of Ramayana

8. Krishna-avatar, in the form of Krishna, the hero of Gita

9. Buddha-avatar, in the form of Gautam Buddha

10. Kalki-avatar, in the form of Kalki

(Rigveda Samhiti, Volume XII, page 4309 by Swami Satyaprakash Saraswati and Satyakam Vidhyalank)

Welcome Ozi for your choosen path to Hinduism (as per you) or sanathana dharma (as per me). May Lord Krishna show mercy on you

"Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare

Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare"

Edited March 4, 2008 by prisha

[puruhit]

The Kali Yuga has Just Begun.

Religious Riots are getting worse and worse.

Hinduism has been believed as Men-made by Muslims. Then how on the earth You can establish This type of Opinion that someone who triggered Divisions among all the people on this planet?

They say hindus don't have holy scriptures. How come you starting to believe that all of a sudden?

Evils have already been destroyed? Then how come you all are still calling other religious people Evils?

You believe in the Last Avatara (Kalki Avatara) but Not on the First 9? Isn't it?

Listening from Zakir Naik or some Newly Hindu Scholars, you can assert the Truth? Don't you know that It's Hypnotizing you?

What Evils have gone? Still Long Long Way To Go. These Scholars are just a part of Syndicate. Later On you would see they are wrong in many different ways.

You destroy the Evil and Come to Destroy our Religions too? If that Belief is true, it means you are simply misunderstanding and destroying the MYTHS That Have been developed for Millions of Years? Destroying the Parent RELIGION THAT COULD FORESEE THE FUTURE?

Suppose (SUPPOSE) we take Zakir Naik's comments into Account --- "Born on the 12 of the first part of the month", "Riding Fleet Horse", "8 Different Qualities", "Father's Name and Mother's Name" and so forth.

THEN READ THIS: (Just a Click Away)

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hoaxes/kalkiavatar.html

[The_Spartan]

could you folks take this discussion to the religious forum?

[Ozi]

Dialogue between Raj and Pundit VaidPrakash Upadhyaya

Raj : Namaskar Panditji.

Pundit : Assalama Lekum Bhaijaan ! Oh ho. I am sorry; I get calls only from Islamic Websites and Islam Enthusiasts who want to prove to world kalki is muhamed

Raj : My name is Raj. I have an M.A from Sri Venkateswara University, Tirupathi. I am Working as Asst Education officer for TTD(Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanam). They are

also big publishers of Hindu Religious material. I am holding in my hand 'kalki purana' published by them. I understand, I heard from a muslim colleague you wrote a book saying kalki is Muhamed

Pundit : yes I did. it is my token of service to great Hindu faith

aj : is it so but it looks like other way around

Pundit : but it is how I planned

Raj : so what is your so called plan

Pundit: I wanted to start this comparison with their fore fathers religion, as you know all muslims in India were once belonged to Vedic religion

Raj: how does it help sanathana dharma

Pundit : this is just for people who already were not happy with islam and want to find out a way to correlate something which will make more sense

Raj : as we all know the Vedas are the oldest scriptures in world. some estimate them to be 1.3 billions of years old. Acharyas tell them as ageless as told by 'Vedas' themselves

Pundit : Vedas have so much to offer but some people who are unable to see it, so I wanted to tell them in a way it makes sense to islam followers. This is not for Hindus who have

knowledge of the truth.

Raj : so they are saying in a twisted fashion the truth, it is amusing to read, for example

they are saying Kalki's father name is 'Vishnu Bhagath' and the meaning of that name

is 'slave of allah' or abdulah, but in truth his name is 'Vishnu Yasha' which means

glory to Vishnu! is it not

Pundit : yes it is. but it is never written for true Hindus who had read 'Bhagavatha Purana' or 'kalki purana' or 'Vishnu purana'. let me give you the true meanings

kalki's Father - Vishnu Yasha - Glory to Vishnu

kalki's Mother - Sumathi - Good Sense or Intelligence

kalki's home - Shambala - A Village in South India

kalki's guru - Parushurama - incarnation of Lord Vishnu

kalki's place of study - holy mountain 'Mahendra Parvata'

and also remember I have intentionally left few important details like

kalki's wives - Padmavathi and Roma

Kalkis Brothers - 3 of them - kavi, praagna, sumanthraka

kalki's sons : Jaya and Vijaya

kalki's horse - devadatta

I know for these they won’t be able to correlate so I left them out

Raj: you haven't still told me what your intention of this charade is

Pundit : I want to sow seeds so that when these islam followers realize that there is no one to protect them, they will remember this saying kalki is muhamed and know

that kalki is Lord Vishnu's Avatar. lord Vishnu who promised us in Bhagavad-Gita as

Lord Krishna he will be born again and again to help us

"Yada Yada Hi Dharmasya

Glanirva Bhavathi Bharatha,

Abhyuthanam Adharmaysya

Tadatmanam Srijami Aham".

Bhagavad Gita (Chapter IV-7)

"Whenever there is decay

of righteousness O! Bharatha

And a rise of unrighteousness

then I manifest Myself!"

so they will start praying to Lord Vishnu and come back to their forefathers

religion of Hinduism.

Raj : Not bad for a guy who is a professor in a fictious university called

'Illahabad University'. ha

Pundit : I want this whole charade to be inconsistent to any person with any sense

and little research for facts. This is only to fanatics who just want to believe

they can twist anything to their needs with no truth in it.

Raj : so you know muslim sites wont like this answer and i see the demise of your book quotes from their websites

Pandit : dont ever underestimate for their passion for twisting facts, i am counting on that factor

Raj : I remember Thomas Nagel's philosophical essay 'what is it to be a bat'. you

will never know it because you can never be a bat. I should add they will never know

to be a Hindu because they can never be Hindus.

Pundit : I have lot of hope on this Rajji! it is a slow start but Vishnu will do the

rest. he is 'leela nataka sutrdhari'. have a good day. i hope onday all the allah's followers will follow the true path of vishnu.

Its quite easy to Doctor a discourse between two poeple. Where is the source so i can address it properly. As for the pundit he agrees the kalki is muhammed, and the reason he mentioned it was, in order to move muslims towards hinduism. When infact, the vedas may have been a true message from god or krishna call him wat you will, and now what you find is heavily contradictory and full of errors and mistakes, aspects of the vedas are still in their original format, such as the fundamental principles, the concept of god, which hindus dont actually follow, and instead follow the later introduced contradictory to the original concept of god. In his aim to try and push muslim towards hinduism, inadvertantly he has shown the quran and muhammed was a true prophet of god, you call him avatar, will call him nabi in arabic, principly, the avatar is a prophet, not reincarnated version of krishna, as the would nullify his divinity inorder to become creation, the creator is not the creation and they dont become each other, this true concept of god is also available in the vedas, which i can quote if you want, just ask, Im sure there is verse which says that god is one, there is nothing like him, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, literally very similar. I can show this too. As for the prophecy itself, it clearly showed muhammed was going to come, and wen you take together the prophecy of the kalki along with the hundred other times muhammed was mentioned, (would you like me to show you), when seen as a collective whole, is seen as the final messenger , with a truth above all, the quran.

So what i comes down to is if the prophecy of kalki is genuine, does mean that muslim should follow hindusim, first, the latter term is an arabic terms given to poeple of india during islamic rule, secondly, if a prophecy states an avatar will come and establish the truth and that people ought to follow him, then its should be hindus adopting islam, as there is alot common amongs the religions at their core, what you practise, are latter corruptions of vedas and deviated concepts introduced. Originally at its core, hinduism is monotheistic and has laws common with islam, christianity and judaism. The message from god has remained constant, worship one god, even the vedas say this, and when all scriptures are compared, there is this common theme, meaning what is common amongst them all is, verifably authentic and original. Now, the vedas, the bible, the torah and all other books were sent to man with prophets, which you now worship as gods too, were for those poeple of that time. Jesus, moses, krishna, etc, did bring the message from god, to people of those times, the quran however, has been revealed as the last book to remian till the end, and its universal in its message, its does not apply to only people of the past, but present and future. The other books today have lost the credibility to be fully authentic and true, as well as divine, because if they were, they would be free of error, contradictions mistakes, etc, and they are not free of those, because man has tampered with the original message. The quran however remains the same, and authentic and free of any error, which is a whole different debate.

Now to you, no reference to post, and you have not shown the authors, plus, you expect me to take seriously. Maybe you worried about the source and have copy and pasted from all over.

Oh yeh working on your other post, its interesting, but very flawed and you will see why.

Edited March 7, 2008 by Ozi

[Ozi]

Right before i post you the translation from Pandit Rajaram, i will address your points.

Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar is a god [Vishnu] who has been reincarnated 10 times and not a mere messenger. Muhammad claimed to be a messenger and would have been grossly offended by the suggestion that he was the incarnation of a Pagan god. There is a huge difference between the concept of Prophethood in Islam and the concept of the Avatar in Hinduism and one cannot impose an Islamic meaning on a Hindu title.

You see thats the hindus believing that Kalki Avatar is a god, Vishnu. You see most hindus dont really know the concept of god which is actaully in the vedas. If you want i can bring verse from credible sources, which will show the true nature of god in the vedas, and see how similar it is to islam, judaism, and even christianity, although the latter, in some cases practise paganistic beliefs, like the trinity. We dont believe in re-incarnation, muhammed was the kalki avatar, with out even imposing islamic meaning on a hindu one, i can show that you are

only supposed to worship one god, make no idols, or pictures of him etc. But its different topic set it up and i will address it.

So you are trying to enlighten hindus about their own faith and make them better hindus. so what do u know about vedas and i am afraid your credible sources are going to come from islamic websites (you got A+ for cut and paste) whose whole purpose is proselytizing. so when you see so many similarities of hinduism with people of book what is this need to prove muhamed as kalki. Who are you to tell millions of people who followed sanathana dharma for hundreds of generations that their practices are wrong. anyway atleast let me give you a primer on vedas from hindusites

ARE YOU KIDDING ME, I KNOW MORE ABOUT VEDAS THAN YOU THINK. AS FOR CUTTING AND PASTING, LOOKS LIKE YOU HAVE GONE OUT OF YOU WAY ON THIS ONE, AND THEN YOU HAVE CHEEK TO SAY THAT I HAVE, WELL IN MY LAST POST, PLEASE SHOW ME BESIDES DIRECT QUOTES, WHICH PARTS ARE CUT AND PASTE, WHERE AS YOUR ENTIRE POSTS ARE CUT AND PASTE, WITH A SHORT PARAGRAPH FROM YOURSELF AT THE END. NOW YOU POST BECOMES SO RDICULOUS THAT IT WORRIES ME, YOU WERE SO AFFECTED BY MY LAST POST, THAT YOU HAVE DECIDED NOT POST REFERENCES, OR AGAIN ANY CREDIBLE MATERIAL. YOU TRY AND SHOW ME WHAT THE VEDAS ARE, JUST TO REINFORCE YOUR POINT. JUST BECAUSE OUR FORETFATHER, BECAUSE I AM ORIGINALLY FROM THE SUBCONTINENT, PRACTISED BELIEFS WHICH YOU THINK IS TRUE HINDUISM, IS NOT ENOUGH, OUR FOREFATHER WERE HUMAN AND COULD HAVE GOT THINGS WRONG, DONT DEPEND ON THEM, FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF.

Regarding Vedas : This is a discourse of His Holiness ‘Parama Pujya Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswathi’ of Kanch Kamakiti Peetham, kancheepuram, India.

The Vedic literature is composed of many books. The oldest texts are the Rig-veda, Yajur-veda, Sama-veda, and the Atharva-veda..

"Anantah vai Vedah", the Vedas are unending. The seers have, however, revealed to us only a small part of them but it is sufficient for our welfare in this world and next. We are not going to create many universes like Brahma that we should know all the Vedas. We need to know only as many as are necessary to ensure our good in this world.

In each of the four Vedas there are different "pathas" and "pathabhedas" or "pathantaras". Each pathantra or each version is called a sakha or recension. The various sakhas are branches of the Vedic tree, indeed a great tree like the Adyar banyan [in Madras]. The branches big and small belong to one or another of the four Vedas, Rg, Yajur, Saman and Atharvan.

In the Rgveda itself the Yajurveda and the Samaveda are mentioned in a number of passages. In Purusasuktha occuring in the Rgveda (tenth mandala, 90th suktha) there is a reference to the other Vedas. We learn from this, don't we, that one Veda does not belong to a period prior to, or later than another?

I stated that each recension consisted of the Samhita, the Brahmana and the Aranyaka. When we speak of "Veda-adhyayana" (the study or chanting of the Vedas) we normally have in mind the Samhita part only. When we bring out a book consisting of the Samhita alone of the Rgveda we still call it the "Rgveda". The Samhita is indeed the very basis of asakha, its life-breath. The word means "systematised and collected together".

The Rgveda Samhita as all in the form of poetry. What came to be saled "sloka" in later times is the"rk" of the Vedas. "Rk" means a "stotra", a hymn. The Rgveda Samhita is made up entirely of hymns in praise of various deities. Each rk is a mantra and a number of rks in praise of a deity constitute a sukta.

The Rgveda, that is its Samhita, has 10, 170 rks and 1, 028 suktas. It is divided into ten mandalas or eight astakas. It begins with a sukta to Agni and concludes with as ukta to the same deity. The concluding sukta of the Rgveda contains a hymn "May mankind be of one mind, " it goes. "May it have a common goal. May all hearts be united in love. And with the mind and the goal being one may all of us live in happiness. "

Yajur Veda

"Yajus" is derived from the word "yaj" meaning "to worship". "Yajna" (as we have already noted) is also from the same root. Just as "rk" means a hymn, "yajus" means the worship associated with sacrifices. The chief purpose of the Yajurveda is the practical application of the Rgvedic hymns in the religious work called yajna or sacrifice. The Yajurveda describes in prose the actual conduct of the rites. If the Rgveda serves the purpose of adoring deities verbally the Yajurveda serves the same purpose through rites.

The Yajurveda is different from the other Vedas in that it may be said to be divided into two Vedas which are considerably different from one another: the Sukla-Yajurveda and the Krsna-Yajurveda. "Sukla" means white, while "Krsna" means black. The Samhita of the Sukls-Yajurveda is also called "Vajasaneyi Samhita". "Vajasaneyi" is one of the names of the sun god. It was the sun god who taught this Samhita to the sage Yajnavalkya. In the Krsna-Yajurveda, the Samhita and the abrahmanas do not form entirely different parts. The Brahmanas are appended here and there to the mantras of the Samhita.

The glory of the Rgveda is that it is replete with hymns to all deities. Scholars are of the opinion, besides, it contains teachings for our life. The wedding rites are based on tht part of this Veda which pertains to the marriage of the daughter of the sun god. There are also passages of a dramatic character like the dialogue between Pururavas and Urvasi. In later times Kalidasa based one of his dramatic works on this [the Vikramorvasiyam]. The hymn to Usas, the goddess of dawn, and similiar mantras are considered to be of high poetic beauty by men of aesthetic discernment.

Since the Rgveda is placed first among the four Vedas it must naturally have an exalted position. It is the matrix of the works (karma) of the Yajurveda and the songs of the Samaveda.

The importance of the Yajurveda is that it systematises the karmayoga, the path of works. The Tattitiriya Samhita of the Krsna-Yajurveda deals with sacrifices like darsa-purnamasa, somayaga, vajapeya, rajasuya, asvamedha. Besides it has a number of hymnic mantras of a high order not found in the Rgveda. For example, the popular Sri Rudra mantras are from the Yajurveda. The Rgveda does contain five suktas known as "Pancarudra", but when we mention Sri Rudra we at once think of the mantras to this deity in the Yajurveda. That is why a supreme Saiva like Appayya Diksita laments that he was not born a Yajurvedin - he was a Samavedin.

Sama Veda

"Sama" denotes that which brings equipoise or tranquillity to the mind. There are four well-known ways of dealing with an opponent or rival: sama, dana, bheda and danda. The first method is that of conciliation, making an enemy a friend through affection. THe Samaveda enables us to befriend the divine forces, even the Paramatman. How do we make a person happy? By praising him. If the panegyricis set to music and sung he would be doubly pleased. Many of the mantras of the Rgveda are intoned with a cadence in the Samaveda; thus we have Samagana. While the rks are chanted with the tonal differences of udatta, anudatta and svarita, the samans are intoned musically according to certain rules. Our music, based on the seven notes (saptasvara), has its origin in Samaveda. All deities are pleased with Samagana. We become recipients of their grace not only through the offerings made in the sacrificial fire but through the intoning of the samans by the udgata. Samagana is particularly important to soma sacrifices in which the essence of the soma plant is offered as oblation.

Though the samans are indeed Rgvedic mantras, they are specially capable of pleasing the deities and creating Atmic uplift because they are intoned musically. This is what gives distinction to the Samaveda. Sri Krsna Paramatman says in the Gita : "Vedanam Samavedosmi"(Of Vedas Iam samaveda). The Lord is everything, including good as well as bad. Even so, as he speaks to Arjuna about the things in which his divine quality specially shines forth, he mentions the Samaveda among them. In the Lalitha-Sahasranama (The One Thousand Names of the Goddess Lalitha), Amba has the name of "Samagana-priya (one who delights in Samagana); she is not called "Rgveda-priya" or "Yajurveda-priya". Syamasastri refers to the Goddess Minaksi as "Samagana-vinodhini" in one of his compositions. In the Siva-astottaram ["Siva astottara-satam, the 108 names of Siva], Siva is worshipped thus:"Samapriyaya namah" And all three have a special relationship with Samaveda.

Atharvana Veda

"Atharvan" means a purohita, a priest. There was a sage with this name. That which was revealed by the seer Athrvan is the Atharvaveda. It contains mantras with which one wards off misfortunes and disasters and brings about the destruction of one's enemies. The Atharvaveda is a mixture of prose and poetry. The mantras of other Vedas also serve the same purpose as those of the Atharvaveda. But what is special about the latter is that it has references to deities not mentioned in the others and has mantras addressed to fierce spirits. What has come to be known as "mantrikam" (magical rites) has its source in this Veda.

But it is to be noted that the Atharvaveda also contains mantras that speak of lofty truths. It has the Prithvi-sukta, the hymn to earth, which glorifies this planet with all its creatures.

The Atharvaveda is noteworthy for the fact that the brahma, the supervisor of sacrifices, is its representative .But we must remember that of the ten important Upanishads three belong to this Veda - Prasna, Mundaka and Mandukya. It is believed that those who seek liberation need nothing to realise their goal other than Madukya Upanishad.

Gayatri is the mantra of mantras and it is believed to be the essence of the three Vedas - which means that the Atharvaveda is excluded here. According to one view, before he starts learning the Atharvaveda, a brahmacharin must go through a second upanayana ceremony. Generaly, the Gayatri imparted to a child at Brahmopadesa ceremony is called "Tripada- Gayatri" - it is so called because it has three padas or three feet. Each foot encompasses the essential spirit of one Veda, The Atharvaveda has a seperate Gayatri and if people belonging to other Vedas want to learn this Veda they have to go through a second upanayana to receive instruction in it. For the followers of the first three Vedas, however there is only one Gayatri and those belonging to any one of them can learn the other two Vedas without another upanayana.

Nearly every hero in the ancient world used swords and horses, therefore, this criteria doesn't point out anyone in particular. However, some Hindus believe that the Kalki Avatar will be a machine-man, who will come to earth on a white horse with a blazing sword in his hands. This future incarnation of Vishnu will appear at the end of Kali Yuga (evil eon) and would solve the problem of Adharma (unrighteousness). He will punish all evil people in this world, destroy the world, and recreate a golden age of peace and harmony. Clearly, Muhammad did none of these things.

Clearly you dont know islamic history. The advent of islam, and its spread was so quick, it ruled from indonesia to spain, in between you had no borders and great wealth, materially and knowledge wise, we progressed in science, by ourselves and translating ancient greek, latin and sanskrit works in india, and then made further progressions on them. This allowed islamic empire to flourish, the europeans, used to send the roylity to study in islamic universities in morroca and spain and baghdad. Islam brought the reneissance to europe, with out it, it would have remained in the dark ages for longer, when most of the world was in the dark ages, especially in europe, the islamic empire was progressing like no other. So it did create a golden age. The rest of what you say is opinion and intpretation of some translation. I can comment on that.

Prisha : Oh Pluzee What are you talking about ozi. Are you day dreaming of an alternate Islamic history out of this earth. These are the sample of atrocities of islam on india alone

LOL, SO NOW FROM NOT BEING ABLE TO PROVE THAT PROHECY DOES NOT APPLY TO MUHAMMED, YOU HAVE DECIDED TO PROPAGATE A FALSE HISTORY OF ISLAM. LET ME GET A FEW THINGS RIGHT FOR YOU FIRST. SURE THERE WERE SOME MUSLIM LEADERS WHO COMMITED ATTROCITIES, JUST LIKE HINDUS, CHRISTIAN, JEWS, ETC ETC. ON WHOLE THE MUSLIMS AND HINDUS HAVE LIVED TOGETHER IN PEACE IN INDIA. YOU HAD THE MOGHULS AND MAHARAJAS, BOTH HAD THEIR RULE, YOUR TEMPLES ARE STILL THERE, AS FOR THIS FALSE NOTION KILLIN ALL HINDUS, AND DESTROYING TEMPLES, IS MYTH, PROPAGATED BY THE BRITISH EMPIRE, BEFORE AND DURING ITS RULE OF INDIA, BECAUSE THE ONLY CREDIBLE THREAT THE BRITS HAD WAS MUSLIMS FIGHTING BACK. YOU ALSO BARE WITNESS TO THIS MYTH, IF MUSLIMS RULED INDIA FOR A 1000 YRS, THEN THAT IS AMPLE TIME, TO ETHINICALLY CLEANSE ANY NATION, NEVER MIND INDIA, IF MUSLIMS WERE TRULY SUPPOSED TO KILL NON MUSLIMS, THEN TODAY THERE WOULD BE NO HINDU IN INDIA OR A TEMPLE, WE HAD A 1000 YRS TO WIPTE IT ALL OUT, THE FACT YOU ARE THERE AND YOUR TEMPLES IS ENOUGH TO SHOW THAT WHAT YOU CLAIM IS SIMPLY A MYTH, LIKE THAT OF ARABIA, WHERE MUSLIMS APPARENTLY KILLED ALL THE CHRISTIANS AND JEWS, THATS WHY YOU FIND THEM IN THE HEART OF MUSLIM LANDS WITH THEIR PLACES OF WORSHIP. THE MYTH OF ISLAM SPREAD BY A SWORD IS BORING, AND PROVEN TO BE A MYTH.

Alain Danielou in Histoire de la Inde: "From the time Muslims started arriving, around 632 AD, the history of India becomes a long, monotonous series of murders, massacres, spoilations, destructions. It is, as usual, in the name of 'a holy war' of their faith, of their sole God, that the barbarians have destroyed civilisations, wiped out entire races."

The Magnitude of Muslim Atrocities

(Ghazanavi to Amir Timur)

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The world famous historian, Will Durant has written in his Story of Civilisation that "the Mohammedan conquest of India was probably the bloodiest story in history".

India before the advent of Islamic imperialism was not exactly a zone of peace. There were plenty of wars fought by Hindu princes. But in all their wars, the Hindus had observed some time-honoured conventions sanctioned by the Sastras. The Brahmins and the Bhikshus were never molested. The cows were never killed. The temples were never touched. The chastity of women was never violated. The non-combatants were never killed or captured. A human habitation was never attacked unless it was a fort. The civil population was never plundered. War booty was an unknown item in the calculations of conquerors. The martial classes who clashed, mostly in open spaces, had a code of honor. Sacrifice of honor for victory or material gain was deemed as worse than death.

Islamic imperialism came with a different code--the Sunnah of the Prophet. It required its warriors to fall upon the helpless civil population after a decisive victory had been won on the battlefield. It required them to sack and burn down villages and towns after the defenders had died fighting or had fled. The cows, the Brahmins, and the Bhikshus invited their special attention in mass murders of non-combatants. The temples and monasteries were their special targets in an orgy of pillage and arson. Those whom they did not kill, they captured and sold as slaves. The magnitude of the booty looted even from the bodies of the dead, was a measure of the success of a military mission. And they did all this as mujahids (holy warriors) and ghazls (kafir-killers) in the service of Allah and his Last Prophet.

Hindus found it very hard to understand the psychology of this new invader. For the first time in their history, Hindus were witnessing a scene which was described by Kanhadade Prabandha (1456 AD) in the following words:

"The conquering army burnt villages, devastated the land, plundered people's wealth, took Brahmins and children and women of all classes captive, flogged with thongs of raw hide, carried a moving prison with it, and converted the prisoners into obsequious Turks."

That was written in remembrance of Alauddin Khalji's invasion of Gujarat in the year l298 AD. But the gruesome game had started three centuries earlier when Mahmud Ghaznavi had vowed to invade India every year in order to destroy idolatry, kill the kafirs, capture prisoners of war, and plunder vast wealth for which India was well-known.

SEE THIS IS SO FALSE IT STINKS OVER HERE IN THE UK OF IT. FIRSTLY, THERE IS NO SUCH TERM AS HOLY WAR IN ISLAM, THIS MISCONCEPTION OF JIHAD BEING HOLY WAR, MAKES ME LAUGH, HOLY WAR WAS INTRODUCED BY THE CHRISTIANS, CALLED THE CRUSADES. JIHAD MEANS TO STRUGGLE AND STRIVE, WHETHER SPIRITUALLY OR PHYSICALLY IN BATTLE. MUJAHIDS ARE PEOPLE WHO FIGHT WARS, GHAZI'S ARE THOSE WHO WIN THEM, SO WHEN A MUJAHID WINS A BATTLE OR A WAR, THEY BECOME GHAZI, VITCTORIOUS. LOL. SEE HOW YOUR TWISTED MIND WORKS, YOU TRY IN A DESPERATE ATTEMPT TO GET ME BACK FOR MY LAST REBUTTAL, THAT YOU WILL POST ANY OLD RUBBISH, EVEN THOUGH THE SOURCE IS NOT TOO CREDIBLE, CLEARLY THE AUTHOR DOES NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. BOOTY WAS A REWARD TO ANYONE WHO WINS A WAR, THIS BOOTY NEVER CAME FROM THE DEAD, NEITHER ARE MUSLIM SUPPOSED TO KILL AND PLUNGE AND BURN VILLAGES DOWN. NOW IM NOT SAYING THIS NEVER HAPPENED, IT MAY HAVE, BUT THAT WOULD BE THE FAULT OF AN INDIVIDUAL, NOT ISLAM. ISLAM SAYS YOU CANT KILL ELDERLY PEOPLE, WOMEN, CHILDREN, ANIMALS OR BURN CROPS ETC. YET IF THE AUTHOR KNEW THE ISLAMIC CODE OF JIHAD PROPERLY HE WOULD KNOW THIS, OBVIOUSLY HE HAD A DIFFERENT AGENDA.

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MAHMUD AND MASOOD GHAZNAVI

In 1000 AD Mahmud defeated Raja Jaipal, a scion of the Hindu Shahiya dynasty of Kabul. This dynasty had been for long the doorkeeper of India in the Northwest. Mahmud collected 250,000 dinars as indemnity. That perhaps was normal business of an empire builder. But in 1004 AD he stormed Bhatiya and plundered the place. He stayed there for some time to convert the Hindus to Islam with the help of mullahs he had brought with him.

In 1008 AD he captured Nagarkot (Kangra). The loot amounted to 70,000,000 dirhams in coins and 700,400 mans of gold and silver, besides plenty of precious stones and embroidered cloths. In 1011 AD he plundered Thanesar which was undefended, destroyed many temples, and broke a large number of idols. The chief idol, that of Chakraswamin, was taken to Ghazni and thrown into the public square for defilement under the feet of the faithful. According to Tarikh-i-Yamini of Utbi, Mahmud's secretary,

"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously [at Thanesar] that the stream was discolored, notwithstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise he to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."

In 1013 AD Mahmud advanced against Nandana where the Shahiya king, Anandapal, had established his new capital. The Hindus fought very hard but lost. Again, the temples were destroyed, and innocent citizens slaughtered. Utbi provides an account of the plunder and the prisoners of war:

"The Sultan returned in the rear of immense booty, and slaves were so plentiful that they became very cheap and men of respectability in their native land were degraded by becoming slaves of common shopkeepers. But this is the goodness of Allah, who bestows honor on his own religion and degrades infidelity."

The road was now clear for an assault on the heartland of Hindustan. In December 1018 AD Mahmud crossed the Yamuna, collected 1,000,000 dirhams from Baran (Bulandshahar), and marched to Mahaban in Mathura district. Utbi records:

"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."

Mathura was the next victim. Mahmud seized five gold idols weighing 89,300 missals and 200 silver idols. According to Utbi, "The Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naptha and fire, and levelled with the ground." The pillage of the city continued for 20 days. Mahmud now turned towards Kanauj which had been the seat of several Hindu dynasties. Utbi continues: "In Kanauj there were nearly ten thousand temples... Many of the inhabitants of the place fled in consequence of witnessing the fate of their deaf and dumb idols. Those who did not fly were put to death. The Sultan gave his soldiers leave to plunder and take prisoners."

The Brahmins of Munj, which was attacked next, fought to the last man after throwing their wives and children into fire. The fate of Asi was sealed when its ruler took fright and fled. According to Utbi, ".... the Sultan ordered that his five forts should be demolished from their foundations, the inhabitants buried in their ruins, and the soldiers of the garrison plundered, slain and captured".

Shrawa, the next important place to be invaded, met the same fate. Utbi concludes:

"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire. The friends of Allah searched the bodies of the slain for three days in order to obtain booty...The booty amounted in gold and silver, rubies and pearls nearly to three hundred thousand dirhams, and the number of prisoners may be conceived from the fact that each was sold for two to ten dirhams. These were afterwards taken to Ghazni and merchants came from distant cities to purchase them, so that the countries of Mawaraun-Nahr, Iraq and Khurasan were filled with them, and the fair and the dark, the rich and the poor, were commingled in one common slavery."

Mahmud's sack of Somnath is too well-known to be retold here. What needs emphasizing is that the fragments of the famous Sivalinga were carried to Ghazni. Some of them were turned into steps of the Jama Masjid in that city. The rest were sent to Mecca, Medina, and Baghdad to be desecrated in the same manner.

Mahmud's son Masud tried to follow in the footsteps of his father. In 1037 AD he succeeded in sacking the fort of Hansi which was defended very bravely by the Hindus. The Tarikh-us-Subuktigin records: "The Brahmins and other high ranking men were slain, and their women and children were carried away captive, and all the treasure which was found was distributed among the army."

Masud could not repeat the performance due to his preoccupations elsewhere.

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MUHAMMAD GHORI AND HIS LEUTENANTS

Invasion of India by Islamic imperialism was renewed by Muhmmad Ghori in the last quarter of the 12th century. After Prithiviraj Chauhan had been defeated in 1192 AD, Ghori took Ajmer by assault.

According the Taj-ul-Ma'sir of Hasan Nizami, "While the Sultan remained at Ajmer, he destroyed the pillars and foundations of the idol temples and built in their stead mosques and colleges and precepts of Islam, and the customs of the law were divulged and established."

Next year he defeated Jayachandra of Kanauj. A general massacre, rapine, and pillage followed. The Gahadvad treasuries at Asni and Varanasi were plundered. Hasan Nizami rejoices that "in Benares which is the centre of the country of Hind, they destroyed one thousand temples and raised mosques on their foundations".

According to Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir, "The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children, and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."

The women and children were spared so that they could be enslaved and sold all over the Islamic world. It may be added that the Buddhist complex at Sarnath was sacked at this time, and the Bhikshus were slaughtered.

Ghori's lieutenant Qutbuddin Aibak was also busy meanwhile. Hasan Nizami writes that after the suppression of a Hindu revolt at Kol (modern day Aligarh) in 1193 AD, Aibak raised "three bastions as high as heaven with their heads, and their carcases became food for beasts of prey. The tract was freed from idols and idol worship and the foundations of infidelism were destroyed."

In 1194 AD Aibak destroyed 27 Hindu temples at Delhi and built the Quwwat-ul-lslam mosque with their debris. According to Nizami, Aibak "adorned it with the stones and gold obtained from the temples which had been demolished by elephants".

In 1195 AD the Mher tribe of Ajmer rose in revolt, and the Chaulukyas of Gujarat came to their assistance. Aibak had to invite reinforcements from Ghazni before he could meet the challenge. In 1196 AD he advanced against Anahilwar Patan, the capital of Gujarat. Nizami writes that after Raja Karan was defeated and forced to flee, "fifty thousand infidels were dispatched to hell by the sword" and "more than twenty thousand slaves, and cattle beyond all calculation fell into the hands of the victors".

The city was sacked, its temples demolished, and its palaces plundered. On his return to Ajmer, Aibak destroyed the Sanskrit College of Visaladeva, and laid the foundations of a mosque which came to be known as 'Adhai Din ka Jhompada'.

Conquest of Kalinjar in 1202 AD was Aibak's crowning achievement. Nizami concludes: "The temples were converted into mosques... Fifty thousand men came under the collar of slavery and the plain became black as pitch with Hindus."

A free-lance adventurer, Muhammad Bakhtyar Khalji, was moving further east. In 1200 AD he sacked the undefended university town of Odantpuri in Bihar and massacred the Buddhist monks in the monasteries. In 1202 AD he took Nadiya by surprise. Badauni records in his Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh that "property and booty beyond computation fell into the hands of the Muslims and Muhammad Bakhtyar having destroyed the places of worship and idol temples of the infidels founded mosques and Khanqahs".

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THE SLAVE (MAMLUK) SULTANS

Shamsuddin Iltutmish who succeeded Aibak at Delhi invaded Malwa in 1234 AD. He destroyed an ancient temple at Vidisha. Badauni reports in his 'Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh':

"Having destroyed the idol temple of Ujjain which had been built six hundred years previously, and was called Mahakal, he levelled it to its foundations, and threw down the image of Rai Vikramajit from whom the Hindus reckon their era, and brought certain images of cast molten brass and placed them on the ground in front of the doors of mosques of old Delhi, and ordered the people of trample them under foot."

Muslim power in India suffered a serious setback after Iltutmish. Balkan had to battle against a revival of Hindu power. The Katehar Rajputs of what came to be known as Rohilkhand in later history, had so far refused to submit to Islamic imperialism. Balkan led an expedition across the Ganges in 1254 AD. According to Badauni,

"In two days after leaving Delhi, he arrived in the midst of the territory of Katihar and put to death every male, even those of eight years of age, and bound the women."

But in spite of such wanton cruelty, Muslim power continued to decline till the Khaljis revived it after 1290 AD.

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THE KHALJIS

Jalaluddin Khalji led an expedition to Ranthambhor in 1291 AD. On the way he destroyed Hindu temples at Chain. The broken idols were sent to Delhi to be spread before the gates of the Jama Masjid. His nephew Alauddin led an expedition to Vidisha in 1292 AD. According to Badauni in Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh, Alauddin "brought much booty to the Sultan and the idol which was the object of worship of the Hindus, he caused to be cast in front of the Badaun gate to be trampled upon by the people. The services of Alauddin were highly appreciated, the jagir of Oudh (or Avadh - Central U.P.) also was added to his other estates."

Alauddin became Sultan in 1296 AD after murdering his uncle and father-in-law, Jalaluddin. In 1298 AD he equipped an expedition to Gujarat under his generals Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan. The invaders plundered the ports of Surat and Cambay. The temple of Somnath, which had been rebuilt by the Hindus, was plundered and the idol taken to Delhi for being trodden upon by the Muslims. The whole region was subjected to fire and sword, and Hindus were slaughtered en masse. Kampala Devi, the queen of Gujarat, was captured along with the royal treasury, brought to Delhi and forced into Alauddin's harem. The doings of the Malik Naib during his expedition to South India in 1310-1311 AD have already mentioned in earlier parts.

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THE TUGHLAQS

Muslim power again suffered a setback after the death of Alauddin Khalji in 1316 AD. But it was soon revived by the Tughlaqs. By now most of the famous temples over the length and breadth of the Islamic occupation in India had been demolished, except in Orissa and Rajasthan which had retained their independence. By now most of the rich treasuries had been plundered and shared between the Islamic state and its swordsmen. Firuz Shah Tughlaq led an expedition to Orissa in 1360 AD. He destroyed the temple of Jagannath at Puri, and desecrated many other Hindu shrines. According to 'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' which he himself wrote or dictated,

"Allah who is the only true God and has no other emanation, endowed the king of Islam with the strength to destroy this ancient shrine on the eastern sea-coast and to plunge it into the sea, and after its destruction he ordered the image of Jagannath to be perforated, and disgraced it by casting it down on the ground. They dug out other idols which were worshipped by the polytheists in the kingdom of Jajnagar and overthrew them as they did the image of Jagannath, for being laid in front of the mosques along the path of the Sunnis and the way of the 'musallis' (Muslim congregation for namaz) and stretched them in front of the portals of every mosque, so that the body and sides of the images might be trampled at the time of ascent and descent, entrance and exit, by the shoes on the feet of the Muslims."

After the sack of the temples in Orissa, Firoz Shah Tughlaq attacked an island on the sea-coast where "nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations". The swordsmen of Islam turned "the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers".

A worse fate overtook the Hindu women. Sirat-i-Firuz Shahs records: "Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."

Still more horrible scenes were enacted by Firuz Shah Tughlaq at Nagarkot (Kangra) where he sacked the shrine of Jvalamukhi. Firishta records that the Sultan "broke the idols of Jvalamukhi, mixed their fragments with the flesh of cows and hung them in nose bags round the necks of Brahmins. He sent the principal idol as trophy to Medina."

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THE PROVINCIAL MUSLIM SATRAPS

In 1931 AD the Muslims of Gujarat complained to Nasiruddin Muhammad, the Tughlaq Sultan of Delhi, that the local governor, Kurhat-ul-Mulk, was practising tolerance towards the Hindus. The Sultan immediately appointed Muzzaffar Khan as the new Governor. He became independent after the death of the Delhi Sultan and assumed the title of Muzzaffar Shah in 1392 AD. Next year he led an expidition to Somnath and sacked the temple which the Hindus had built once again. He killed many Hindus to chastise them for this "impudence," and raised a mosque on the site of the ancient temple. The Hindus, however, restarted restoring the temple soon after. In 1401 AD Muzaffar came back with a huge army. He again killed many Hindus, demolished the temple once more, and erected another mosque.

Muzaffar was succeeded by his grandson, Ahmad Shah, in 1411 AD. Three years later Ahmad appointed a special darogah to destroy all temples throughout Gujarat. In 1415 AD Ahmad invaded Sidhpur where he destroyed the images in Rudramahalaya, and converted the grand temple into a mosque. Sidhpur was renamed Sayyadpur.

Mahmud Begrha who became the Sultan of Gujarat in 1458 AD was the worst fanatic of this dynasty. One of his vassals was the Mandalika of Junagadh who had never withheld the regular tribute. Yet in 1469 AD Mahmud invaded Junagadh. In reply to the Mandalika's protests, Mahmud said that he was not interested in money as much as in the spread of Islam. The Mandalika was forcibly converted to Islam and Junagadh was renamed Mustafabad. In 1472 AD Mahmud attacked Dwarka, destroyed the local temples, and plundered the city. Raja Jaya Singh, the ruler of Champaner, and his minister were murdered by Mahmud in cold blood for refusing to embrace Islam after they had been defeated and their country pillaged and plundered. Champaner was renamed Mahmudabad.

Mahmud Khalji of Malwa (1436-69 AD) also destroyed Hindu temples and built mosques on their sites. He heaped many more insults on the Hindus. Ilyas Shah of Bengal (1339-1379 AD) invaded Nepal and destroyed the temple of Svayambhunath at Kathmandu. He also invaded Orissa, demolished many temples, and plundered many places. The Bahmani sultans of Gulbarga and Bidar considered it meritorious to kill a hundred thousand Hindu men, women, and children every year. They demolished and desecrated temples all over South India.

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AMlR TIMUR

The climax came during the invasion of Timur in 1399 AD. He starts by quoting the Quran in his Tuzk-i-Timuri: "O Prophet, make war upon the infidels and unbelievers, and treat them severely."

He continues: "My great object in invading Hindustan had been to wage a religious war against the infidel Hindus...[so that] the army of Islam might gain something by plundering the wealth and valuables of the Hindus." To start with he stormed the fort of Kator on the border of Kashmir. He ordered his soldiers "to kill all the men, to make prisoners of women and children, and to plunder and lay waste all their property". Next, he "directed towers to be built on the mountain of the skulls of those obstinate unbelievers". Soon after, he laid siege to Bhatnir defended by Rajputs. They surrendered after some fight, and were pardoned. But Islam did not bind Timur to keep his word given to the "unbelievers". His Tuzk-i-Timuri records:

"In a short space of time all the people in the fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground."

At Sarsuti, the next city to be sacked, "all these infidel Hindus were slain, their wives and children were made prisoners and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors". Timur was now moving through (modern day) Haryana, the land of the Jats. He directed his soldiers to "plunder and destroy and kill every one whom they met". And so the soldiers "plundered every village, killed the men, and carried a number of Hindu prisoners, both male and female".

Loni which was captured before he arrived at Delhi was predominantly a Hindu town. But some Muslim inhabitants were also taken prisoners. Timur ordered that "the Musulman prisoners should be separated and saved, but the infidels should all be dispatched to hell with the proselytizing sword".

By now Timur had captured 100,000 Hindus. As he prepared for battle against the Tughlaq army after crossing the Yamuna, his Amirs advised him "that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolators and enemies of Islam at liberty". Therefore, "no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword".

Tuzk-i-Timuri continues:

"I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. One hundred thousand infidels, impious idolators, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiruddin Umar, a counselor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives."

The Tughlaq army was defeated in the battle that ensued next day. Timur entered Delhi and learnt that a "great number of Hindus with their wives and children, and goods and valuables, had come into the city from all the country round".

He directed his soldiers to seize these Hindus and their property. Tuzk-i-Timuri concludes:

"Many of them (Hindus) drew their swords and resisted...The flames of strife were thus lighted and spread through the whole city from Jahanpanah and Siri to Old Delhi, burning up all it reached. The Hindus set fire to their houses with their own hands, burned their wives and children in them and rushed into the fight and were killed...On that day, Thursday, and all the night of Friday, nearly 15,000 Turks were engaged in slaying, plundering and destroying. When morning broke on Friday, all my army ...went off to the city and thought of nothing but killing, plundering and making prisoners....The following day, Saturday the 17th, all passed in the same way, and the spoil was so great.that each man secured from fifty to a hundred prisoners, men, women, and children. There was no man who took less than twenty. The other booty was immense in rubies, diamonds, garnets, pearls, and other gems and jewels; ashrafis, tankas of gold and silver of the celebrated Alai coinage: vessels of gold and silver; and brocades and silks of great value. Gold and silver ornaments of Hindu women were obtained in such quantities as to exceed all account. Excepting the quarter of the Saiyids, the Ulama and the other Musulmans, the whole city was sacked."

NO SOURCES, NO REFERENCES ETC AND YOU EXPECT ME TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. I TELL YOU WHAT, SINCE THIS ASPECT ABOVE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KALKI, WHY DONT YOU SET UP A THREAD SEPERATE, ABOUT HOW MUSLIMS TOOK OVER INDIA, AND I WILL COME AND PUT YOU RIGHT THERE. WITH CREDIBLE AND REFERNCED MATERIAL. AGAIN A 1000 YRS IS MORE THAN ENOUGHT TO WIPE OUT ANY NATIONS OR THEIR TRACE, THE FACT YOU STILL EXIST AND THE TEMPLES AND A LARGER HINDU POPULACE THAN MUSLIM, SHOWS YOUR POSTING RUBBISH AND MYTHS.

I also have a question for "ozi", if kalki is muhammed (i do not think kalki is here yet so it is going to be tough to be accepted) but i am curious how about the previous 9 avatars of Lord Maha Vishnu. are they correlated with Islam too. please do provide a link and i would enjoy reading them immensely

The Kalki avatar is muhammed, as for the other 9, i recall that even jesus was mentioned, but the other could have been prophets of god too. Sometimes god sent prophet after prophet, sometime two at once, or more, like when jesus was around, you had john the baptist, thts just one example, both were prophets of god. They simply might be referring to other prophets of god, like bhudda, jesus, moses maybe, i dont know, i need to do further research on them. But regarding the kalki, its the final, and if it the final messenger, only one man fits it, muhammed.

Prisha : OK ozi first let us understand what both ‘Avatar’ and ‘Prophet’ mean, so that we will know we are on the same page, like comparing apples to apples.

In Hindu philosophy, an avatar (also spelled as avatara) (Sanskrit: अवतार, avatāra), most commonly refers to the incarnation (bodily manifestation) of a divine being (deva), or the Supreme Being (God) onto planet Earth.

In religion, a prophet (or prophetess) is a person who has directly encountered the numinous or the divine and serves as an intermediary with humanity. In Abrahamic religion, a prophet is seen as a person who is encountered by, and speaks as a formal representative of God, and the intention of the message is always to effect a social change to conform to God's desired standards initially specified in the Torah dictated to Moses.

REALLY, PLEASE SHOW ME A CREDIBLE TRANSLATION OF THE WORD AVATAAR, MEANING RE-INCARNATED, BECAUSE I CAN ASSURE THIS CONCEPT IS NOT EVEN PRESENT AT THE CORE OF YOUR FAITH, DONT WORRY THAT I WILL SHOW FURTHER ON. AVATAAR, PROPHETS ARE THE SAME, REPRESENTITIVES OF GOD ON EARTH, PEOPLE LIKE ME AND YOU, NOT HUMAN GODS, OR GOD MANIFESTING HIMSELF AS GOD, TRUST GOD IS NOT EVERYWHERE, LIKE YOU BELIEVE, IF HE IS, IS THERE WHEN YOU TAKE DUMP IN THE TOILET, IS HE IN EVERYTHING, IS THAT A FITTING PLACE FOR A GOD TO BE TOO. THE CREATOR DOES NOT BECOME THE CREATION AND VICA VERSA, IF I CAN SHOW THAT THE VEDAS SAY, WORSHIP ONE GOD, THERE IS NOTHING LIKE HIM, SO EVENT EVEN THE AVATAARS ARE NOT LIKE HIM, AND DONT MAKE IDOLS OF HIM ETC, WHAT THEN, WOULD YOU STILL THINK YOUR PRACTISING YOUR RELIGION PROPERLY. IF I SHOW WHAT IS COMMON AMONGST ISLAM AND HINDUISM, IF YOU PRACTISE THOSE COMMON TERMS, YOU WILL SEE THAT YOUR ARE CLOSER TO ISLAM THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

Now for the Prof. Pundit Vaid Parkash translation. Remember this guys is a professor and a pandit, what more do you want......

This so called Prof and Pundit Vaid Parkash upadhyaya seems to be existing in the Islamic website universe. I would love to see his own website with all the 8 pundits who vouched for the authenticity of his translation. His book I think is sold only in Pakistan and this Pandit Rajaram’s reference also I could not find. Do include in your rebuttal their websites (don’t include any Islamic sites with reference). In the same note I was thinking if at all these pundits belonged to islam and spoken against them like Salman Rushdie or Taslima nasreen have done there would be fatwas on the so called pandits heads or they would be dead for the sake of islam.

FIRST POINT ADDRESS HERE IS ABOUT RUSHDIE, HE MADE FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT ISLAM, IRAN GAVE A FATWA ON HIM, BY KHOMENI. NOW IF MOST MUSLIMS KNEW SHIITE ISLAM, THEY WOULD KNOW THAT WHAT KHOMENI HAD WRITTEN AGAINST MUHAMMED WAS FAR WORSE THAN RUSHDIE, YET THE GUY HAD THE CHEEK TO GIVE A FATWA ON HIM. MOST MUSLIMS WANTED THE OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS RUSHDIE IN THE OPEN AND HIS POINTS, IN A DEBATE MANNER, CAUSE HE WAS 100% WRONG, BUT SINCE KHOMENI GAVE THE FATWA HE HAS REMAINED IN HIDING. SO DONT COMPARE TO RUSHDIE, IF PANDITS DID WRITE SIMILAR, SO WHAT, IT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN PUT TO THE TEST BY MUSLIMS WHO WOULD RESPONSD WITH LITERATURE ASWE DID AGAINST RUSHDIE. YOUR POINT ABOVE NOT BEING ABLE TO FIND THE PANDITS, CLEARLY SHOWS THAT YOUR EXPECTING TO FIND THEM ON THE NET. HOW MANY PANDITS ARE ON THE NET, AND REAL RESEARCH DOES NOT COME FROM THE NET. PANDITS ARE RELIGIOUS MEN, OFTEN KEEP THEMSELVES OUT THE WAY, SECLUDED ETC, DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO WORSHIP ETC. DO YOU REALLY EXPECT TO FIND THEM ON THE NET, MAYBE YOU SHOULD GO TO INDIA IF NOT ALREADY THERE, AND SEEK THEM.

post the 'original' sanskrit slokas and and not english mistranslations, I have the kalki purana with me right now published by TTD (Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanam) who are renowned publishers of hindu religious material.

After the advent of Kalki kali yuga will end and krita yuga will start, as Mohamed has come and gone this is muslims ‘krita yuga’. So they are done with everything. Krita yuga is supposed to be the golden age where peace and tranquility is the norm of the day. Time is cyclical in the Vedic conception and there is never a last. After Kalki arrives, the Satya Yuga will begin, and Ashvathama will take the post as Vyasa Muni to guide the world in spiritual knowledge.

Para-1 : It has been wrongly said that Kalki has been mentioned in the Vedas. Nowhere in the four Vedas has Kalki been ever mentioned. Kalki has been mentioned in the “Puranas” – namely, the “Vishnu Puran” (one of the 18 major Puran) and the “Kalki Puran” (a minor Puran).

WHO IS WHEN HE IS HOME. AGAIN YOU KEEP CITING PEOPLE WITH NO CREDIBILITY, A TRUST WHICH WORKS WITH THE RICHEST AND MOST VISITED RELIGIOUS CENTRE IN THE WORLD, WHAT AUTHORITY DO THEY HAVE IN THIS MATTER, NON. NOT EVEN PANDITS OR PROFESSORS OR SCHOLARS. YOUR GETTING DESPERATE AND THROWING EVERYTHING, INCLUDING THE KITCHEN SINK.

Para-2: I have not heard any hue and cry about this purported book in India in Hindi and I’m a Hindi speaking guy. About putting the author in jail had he been a Muslim, well many Muslims in India regularly write such things about Hindu religion and still go scot-free. And when Muslims write such things about Islam, their books get banned. Example – Salman Rushdie for writing “Satanic Verses”. You see, in a democracy, politicians are overtly conscious about minority rights but forget about majority sentiments.

THIS IS MORE DESPERATE THAN I THOUGHT, THESE POEPLE ARE COMPLAING THAT, IF THE SAME PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAID MUHAMMED WAS KALKI WROTE SOMETHING AGAINST ISLAM, THEN WOULD MUSLIMS FEEL THE SAME ABOUT THEM, WELL MUSLIMS DINT FORCE THEM TO ACCEPT MUHAMMED AS KALKI, ITS THEIR EXPERTISE THAT BROUGHT THEM TO THIS CONCLUSION.

Para-3: No one has ever heard of a “Pundit Vaid Parkash” in India. It’s a concocted name and there is surely no renowned Sanskrit scholar of that name in India. He is said to be holding an important portfolio in “Ilahabad University”, which I take to be Allahabad University. The website of that University is http://www.allduniv.edu . Check out the faculty list of that university (I hope he was not a student  ). No such person in the faculty. The guy writing the article thought he was clever. But everything’s online these days.

THE LAST LINE SAYS IT ALL, SURELY EVERYTHING IS ONLINE TODAY. BAD RESEARCHERS THATS ALL I CAN SAY.

The said “Pundit Vaid Parkash” is said to be coming from the “Bengali race”. The fact is that Bengalis don’t have names like “Pundit Vaid Parkash”. Ask any Bengali. And why would a Bengali write a book in Hindi? He could have used English (which would have a greater readership all over India) or even Bengali.

THEN WHY DO POEPLE MAKE MOVIES IN HINDI, THERE ARE SO MANY LANGUAGES IN INDIA, HINDI IS CENTRAL GROUND AND UNDERSTOOD BY MANY. AGAIN DESPERATE.

Para-4: Here comes “Eight great Pundits”. Who are they and what are their names? Maybe the author of the article could not devise more Hindu names other than “Pundit Vaid Parkash”.

MAYBE THE AUTHOR OF THIS POINT SHOULD GET OFF THE NET AND DO SOME PROPER RESEARCH.

Para-5: “All Hindus should embrace Islam … should not wait for any other Kalki Autar” – Ha ! that’s the whole idea behind this (mis)information, isn’t it? Caught ya !

YOU MEAN CORRECT INFORMATION, YES HINDUS SHOULD ACCEPT ISLAM AS THEY ALREADY ARE IN NUMBERS IN INDIA. THE QURAN, ISLAM, ARE UNIVERSAL, ITS A RELIGION FOR EVERYONE. HINDUISM WAS FOR ITS POEPLE OF ITS TIME, ITS SOURCE THE SCRIPTURES NEVER CLAIM TO BE UNIVERSAL MESSAGE OR EVEN FOR ALL TIME, THE QURAN DOES, AND THE VEDAS CONFIRM THAT THE KALKI WOULD BRING THE WHOLE TRUTH.

In Kalki Puran the birth place of Kalki is in a village called “Sambhal”. Do you think it is a codename for Mecca in some way? Beats me.

Para-6 (Sl.1) : It is the Purans, namely the Vishnu Puran and Kalki Puran and not the Vedas which said that Kalki will be the last Avtar of Vishnu. How does it make him Mohammed? Islamic texts themselves prophesize the second coming of the Christ (Isa, son of Mariam) in the future! This “well known scholar” cannot distinguish between the Vedas and the Puranas which every ordinary Hindu can !

LOL. YES THATS TRUE, JESUS WILL COME.UNLIKE CHRISTIAN, WE DONT BELIEVE HE DIED ON THE CROSS, GOD SAVED HIM AND REPLACE HIM WITH SOME ONE ELSE ON THE CROSS, A ROMAN MADE TO LOOK LIKE JESUS. ACCORDING ISLAM, JESUS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN, WHERE HE IS NOW, HE HAS YET TO TASTE DEATH, AS ALL SOULS WILL. hE WILL COME DOWN IN DAMASCUS, WE EVEN KNOW THE SPOT, HE WILL KILL THE ANTICHRIST. BUT WHEN HE WILL COME, THE MAHDI WILL BE THE LEADER OF THE MUSLIM, HE WILL BE ABOUT TO LEAD THEM IN PRAYER, WHEN JESUS WILL ARRIVE, NATURALLY THEY WILL ASK HIM TO LEAD THE PRAYER, AND HE WILL SAY NO AND TELL THE MAHDI TO LEAD THE PRAYER, AS HE IS A FOLLOWER HIMSELF(JESUS) OF MUHAMMED AND HE WILL FOLLOW THE MAHDI' LEAD. HE WILL DESTROY THE CROSS AND KILL ALL SWINE. BASICALLY JESUS WILL COME AGAIN, NOT WITH A NEW RELIGION, EVEN HIS FIRST COMEING HE CAME WITH NO NEW LAWS, IN HIS SECOND COMING HE WILL COME TO CONFIRM ISLAM, AND AS A RESULT WHEN CHRISTIAN WILL SEE THIS, MOST OF THEM WILL THEN ACCEPT ISLAM TOO. NOW THAT ROUGHLY THE ISLAMIC PROPHECY, TO CLAIM THAT JESUS COMING AGAIN MEANS THE MUHAMMED WAS NOT THE LAST PROPHET, IS ENTIRELY FALSE. HE WAS, THE QURAN SAYS SO TOO. JESUS HAS BEEN WILL COME AGAIN, LIVE AND BREATH AS MUSLIMS (SOMEONE WHO SUBMITS HIS WILL TO ALLAH) AND FOLLOW MUHAMMED LAW. SO IF YOUR RELIABLE SOURCE IS SAYING KALKI IS THE LAST AVATAAR, AND PANDITS SAY IT MUAHMMED, THEN WHICH IS MORE CREDIBLE..AS FO THE PURANAS, AND THE VEDAS, THE VEDAS ARE THE HOLIEST AND MOST AUTHENTIC OUT OF ALL HINDU SCRIPTURE, AS THEY ARE THE OLDEST TOO, SO WHICH ONE IS THE CREDIBLE SOURCE. ARE PICKING AND CHOOSING WHAT TO FOLLOW.

Para-7 (Sl.2): Which Hindu prophecy says that Kalki will be born in an Island? Kalki Purana mentions that Kalki will be born in “Sambhal” village which is in the mainland; only during his marriage with “Padma” he will travel to the island “Sinhala”.

Para-8 (Sl.3): Absolute .! The father of Kalki, according to both Vishnu Puran and Kalki Puram is “Vishnujasha” (not Vishnu Bhagat, as the Islamic rumormongers claim) and the name of his mother is “Sumati”, not Somanib. To quote Kalki Puran -

Afterwards, Sumati, the wife of Vishnujasha became pregnant.... Kalki descended to earth (as a human) in the month of Baisakha on the 12th day after the full moon

~ Kalki Purana, I[2], Verses 11 and 15

Obviously, the twisting of the names had been done to make their names look like the translation of the names of the parents of Prophet Mohammad. Even that translation is faulty.

Para-9 (Sl.4): Every avtar of God is true and honest. That’s not the sole prerogative of Prophet Mohammed. As for Kalki living on olive and dates, this is completely fictitious. In fact in Kalki Purana Chapter III[17], Verse 43, Kalki and his wife is shown to have been feasting on rice, curd and other milk products.

Para-10 (Sl.5): All avtars are born in a noble and respected family (not dynasty – the term is applied to royal families. Kalki was not born in a royal family). How does that make Kalki the same person as Prophet Mohammed? Was Mohammed the only person to be born in a noble and respected family?

KALKI, MUHAMMED WAS BORN IN A FAMILY WHICH WAS THE LEADERS IN MECCA, THE NOBILITY. AS FOR THE ABOVE NOTIONS THAT NAMES WERE MISTRANSLATED ETC, YOU DONT EVEN PROVIDE EVIDENCE YOU HAVE JUST CUT AND PASTE ASSUMPTIONS, NO REFERENCE FOR THE SOURCE OR ANYTHING, ARE YOU WORRIED I MIGHT EXPOSE THEM TOO.

Para-11 (Sl.6): Kalki was taught by his “Guru” named ParushuRam in the “mahendra” mountain. Nowhere is it said in Kalki Puran that his Guru was a messenger of God. ParushuRam lived on a mountain – but nowhere is it mentioned that either he or Kalki lived in a cave.

MUHAMMED RECEIVED REVELATION IN CAVE HIRA IN ARABIA VIA GABRIEL.

HE USED TO STAY TEHRE FOR LONG TIMES TOO, MEDITATING , WORSHIPPING ETC.

Para-12 (Sl.7): Did Prophet Mohammed have two horses? Well Kalki will be provided only one. And I do not think Mohammed managed to ride to heaven and skies with his horses.

MUHAMMED HAD HIS HORSE, AND THEN HE ALSO HAD HIS WHITE WINGED HORSE WHICH TOOK HIM ON THE NIGHT JOURNEY TO HEAVENS.

Para-13 (Sl.8): It’s a foregone conclusion that an incarnation of God on earth will have the powers of God. How does that make Kalki the same as Prophet Mohammed? By the way, Kalki is an incarnation of God Himself. As per Islamic tradition, Mohammed was God’s messenger.

THATS AN ASSUMPTION THAT AN AVATAAR IS INCARNATION OF GOD, LIKE I SAID, GOD DOES NOT BECOME THE CREATION AND VICA VERSA. IF THE VEDAS SAY HE IS ONE AND NOTHING IS LIKE HIM, THEN THE AVATAARS CANNOT BE INCARNATION OF GOD, THEY ARE MEN, BECAUSE NOTHING IS LIKE GOD.

Para-14 (Sl.9): A very foolish conclusion. Even today, military personnel in many parts of the world are taught horse riding and swordsmanship during their training as part of military tradition and valour. Does that mean that they fight with these weapons? In a prophecy, weapons of the future are described in the nearest term understandable at that time. Similar terms had been used by Nostradamus too in his prophecies. And if you think that Kalki Puran mentions Kalki fighting with ancient weapons, how about this?

WELL THE PROPHECY MENTIONS SWORD AND HORSES ETC...NOT MUCH MORE TO SAY.

Soon they entered the city of Bishasan, the capital of Koli, and burnt down the city using fiery missile. Alongwith the city, Koli too was burnt and his sons and relatives were destroyed.

HMM INTERESTING. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I BELIEVE THE HINDU EMPIRE WAS ONCE A GREAT ONE AND THEY HAD TECHNOLOGY FAR GREATER THAN OURS TODAY IN SOME ASPECTS, AND THE SCRIPTURES RELAY TO THEM TOO, ALSO ABOUT NUKES ETC TOO. THAT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.

~ Kalki Purana, III[7], Verses 9 & 10

I hope that the para-wise rebuttal above is sufficient to prove that the concocted article, purportedly written by a Hindu Pundit yet prominently being displayed in various Islamic websites is nothing but a trash of lies and was devised with an obvious ulterior motive in mind.

LOL, FIRSTLY YOU HAVE NO REFERNCES, NO SOURCES, SECONDLY PARA THE WISE, WHO IS HE OR SHE, AND THEIR CREDIBILITY. YOU SEEM TO TAKE THE WORD OF UNRELIABLE POEPLE OVER PANDITS AND YOUR SCRIPTURES, I WILL SHOW YOU HOW FURTHER ON.

Before concluding I will provide some more quotes from Kalki Purana to show its modern context and that it could not have spoken about Prophet Mohammed –

1. Soon, Garga (an associate of Kalki) and his army killed 6000 Buddhist soldiers. Bharga and his soldiers killed and injured 11 million enemy soldiers and his mighty allies killed 2500 of them. Kobi along with his sons killed 2 million enemy soldiers, Pragya killed 1 million and Sumantu killed 5 million soldiers ~ Kalki Purana, II[7], Verses 5, 6, 8, 9

It seems that Kalki and his allies kill or injure an army which is almost 20 million strong. How many million men did Mohammed kill in his battles? In fact this type of huge army can be conceived in the modern times only. Also, did Mohammed ever fight this many Buddhists or anyone at all?

MILLION OR LAKH, YOU WORK OUT WHAT A LAKH IN INDIA EQUATES TO IN ENGLISH NUMBERS.

2. This island (Sinhala) is situated on the other side of the shore. The island has pure water and is full of people. Full of various types of Aircrafts and decorated with jewellery. The beauty of the island is enhanced by huge buildings and flags and gates decorated in front of them ~ Kalki Purana, II[1], Verses 39, 40, 41

AND WHO'S TRANSLATION IS THIS, IM SURE YOU WONT EVEN EXPOSE THAT, YOUR WORRIED I MIGHT EXPOSE THEM, YOUR GETTING DESPERATE NOW.

The interesting part of the description of the island where Kalki's wife-to-be stays is that apart from the huge buildings that the island city has, its sky is also full of Aircrafts! Was there aircrafts in Prophet Mohammad’s time? In the later chapters of Kalki Puran, Kalki himself was said to be traveling on such an Aircraft. Did Mohammed do that?

3. Lord Kalki, along with his soldiers armed with various types of weapons engaged in war with Kok and Bikok. These two brothers are supreme demons, great fanatics and adept in the art of war. These brothers are intimately connected, powerful, hard to defeat and are even feared by the Gods.

~ Kalki Purana, III[6], Verses 43 & 44

The surprise elements here are the description of the war with brothers called "Kok and Bikok", who are allied with Koli. These are surely Gog and Magog described in the Biblical book of Revelations and "Yajooj and Majooj" described in the Islamic prophecies. This is the final nail in the coffin for the mischievous article. The Yajooj/Majooj war (Gog/Magog in the Bible) is the war, in which Christ during His second coming will fight during the end of the world. Prophet Mohammed did not fight this war. This war is predicted for the future in the Islamic and Biblical prophecies.

ITS DEPENDANT ON THE SOURCE OF TRANSLATION, I CANT IT TAKE IT SERIOUSLY UNTIL YOU PROVIDE SOURCES AND REFERENCES.

We can thus definitely conclude that Kalki will appear in the future and is not Prophet Mohammed by any means. Claiming so can only be the work of a deceiver. However, it is the Muslims who are only deceived by all these ., not the Hindus.

2. According to a prophecy of Hinduism, 'kalki autar' will be born in an island and that is the Arab territory which is known as 'jazeeratul Arab'.

Again I am telling you he is born in ‘Shambala’ Village and not on island. Read Kalki Puran not published by Islamic sites and proofs that came from Zakir Naik.

ZAKIR TAKES THE INFORMATION FROM PROFESSOR GRIFFITH AND PANDITS ETC, WHO DO YOU TAKE IT FROM, UNKNOW SOURCES, AFRAID OF SHOWING THEM TOO, AND WHEN YOU DO,THEIR EITHER AMATUER ENTHUSIASTS AND HAVE NO CREDIBILITY AT ALL.

There is no concept of Messengers of God in Hinduism. However they have a concept of Avtaar. Avtaar is the Sanskrit term where ‘Av’ means down and ‘tr’ means passover. Thus Avtar means to descend down or to come down. The meaning of Avtaar in the oxford Dictionary is, “(In Hindu Mythology) the descent of a diety of a released soul to earth in bodily form”. In simple words, Avtaar means God Almighty coming down to earth in bodily form.

AV, MEAN DOWN, TR, MEANS PASSOVER. THUS EXACTLY WHAT MESSENGERS DO, THEY COME DOWN AS MESSENGERS FROM GOD, IN ALL RELIGIONS WITH PROPHETS OR AVATAARS, GOD SENDS DOWN HELPERS, MESSENGERS ETC. JUST YOU THINK GOD COMES HIMSELF. LIKE I SAID, YOUR VEDAS CONTRADICT THIS NOTION, EITHER YOUR RIGHT AND YOUR VEDAS IS WRONG, YOU DECIDE.

In Hinduism, It is believed that God Almighty comes down to the earth in some bodily form to protect the religion or to set an example or set the rules for the human beings.

There is no reference of Avtaars anywhere in the Vedas. The most sacred of the Hindu Scriptures i.e. Sruti. However it is found in the Smrti i.e. the Puranas and the Itihasas.

THERE IS NO REFERNCE TO THE ABOVE, INFACT GOD SAYS THERE IS ONLY ONE OF HIM, AND NOTHING LIKE HIM, THEN TO COME DOWN AS A MAN, MAEANS THERE IS SOMETHIGN LIKE HIM, THIS IS A CONTRADICTION WITH YOUR BELIEF,WHICH IS RIGHT, THE VEDAS OR YOU.

Prisha : Hey ozi if as per you Vedas does not have any reference of avatars then how come kalki/muhamed is mentioned, r u contradicting yourself that is the problem with cut and paste from different sites.

It is mentioned in the most popular and widely read book of Hinduism.

Bhagavad Geeta, Chapter 4, Verse 7-8

“Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendent of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion at that time I descend Myself”.

“To deliver the Pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I myself appear, millenium after millennium”.

Thus according to Bhagavad Geeta, God takes Avtaar to deliver the pious and annihilate miscreants and to reestablish the principles or religion.

According to the Puranas there are hundreds of Avtaars, but the Vishnu the sustainer has 10 Avtaars.

1. Matsya-avatar, in the form of a fish

2. Kurm-avatar, in the form of a tortoise

3. Varah-avatar, in the form of a boar or a pig

4. Narasimha-avatar, in the form of a monster, half man half lion

5. Vamana-avatar, in the form of a Brahmin dwarf named Vamana

6. Parashuaram-avatar, in the form of Parashurama

7. Rama-avatar, in the form of Rama, the hero of Ramayana

8. Krishna-avatar, in the form of Krishna, the hero of Gita

9. Buddha-avatar, in the form of Gautam Buddha

10. Kalki-avatar, in the form of Kalki

(Rigveda Samhiti, Volume XII, page 4309 by Swami Satyaprakash Saraswati and Satyakam Vidhyalank)

Welcome Ozi for your choosen path to Hinduism (as per you) or sanathana dharma (as per me). May Lord Krishna show mercy on you

"Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare

Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare"

MY PATH IS ISLAM, AS PROPHECISED BY YOUR RELIGION AND SCRIPTURE, INFACT IF I WANTED I WOULD SHOW YOU SO MUCH COMMON AMONGST ISLAM AND HINSUISM, THAT IF YOU FOLLOWED THOSE ASPECT OF HINDUISM, YOU WOULD BE MORE LIKE A MUSLIM.

for example lets see what BHAGAVAD GITA says : The most popular amongst all the Hindu scriptures is the Bhagavad Gita.

Consider the following verse from the Gita:

"Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."

[bhagavad Gita 7:20]

The Gita states that people who are materialistic worship demigods i.e. ‘gods’ besides the True God.

The difference between islama nd hinduism regarding god is (the muslims say Everything is ‘God’s’ - the hindu say everything is ‘God’): Pantheism i.e everything is God, the tree is God, the sun is God, the moon is God, the snake is God, the monkey is God, the human being is God.

Upanishad. Upanishad are also one of the sacred scriptures of the Hindus.

(i) Chandogya Upanishad, Chapter 6, Section 2, Verse 1

It is mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad, Prapathaka(Chapter) 6, Khanda(Section)2, Shloka(Verse) “Ekam evaditiyam”, “He is one only without a second”.

The principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan, page 447 and 448(sacred books of the east Volume 1 the Upanishads, part I, page 93)

Do you see where im going with this, how many gods do you worship. It should be one, this is just a taster as to what i was saying earlier, im actually quite sick of debating with poeple with unreliable sources, assumptions, lack of research and knowledge. See how similar it is to the quranic verse:

Holy Qur’an in Surah Ikhlas, Chapter 112, Verse 1, “Say he is Allah one and only”.

You want more....

It is mentioned in the Svetasvatara Upanishad, Adhyaya(Chapter) 6, Shloka(Verse) 9, “Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah” “Of him there is neither parents nor lord”.

“na tasya kascit patir asti loke, na cesita naiva ca tasya lingam, na karanam karanadhipadhipo na casya kascij janita na cadhipah”.

“Of him there is no master in the world, no ruler, nor is there any mark of him. He is the cause, the lord of the lords of the sense organs; of him there is neither progenitor nor lord”.

(The principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 745 and in sacred books of the east Volume 15, the Upanishads, part II, page 263)

Holy Qur’an in Surah Ikhlas, Chapter 112, Verse 3,

“He begets not, nor is he begotten”.

see the similarity.

It is mentioned in Svetasvatara Upanishad, Adhyaya(Chapter) 4, Shloka(Verse) 19,

“Na tasya pratima asti” “There is no likeness of him”.

“nainam urdhvam na tiryancam na madhye na parijagrabhat na tasya pratima asti yasya nama mahad yasah” “There is no likeness of him whose name is great glory”.

(The principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 736 & 737 and in sacred books of the east Volume 15, the Upanishad, part II, page 253)

Holy Qur’an in Surah Ikhlas, Chapter 112, Verse 4,

“And there is none like unto him”.

again similar.

It is mentioned in Svetasvatara Upanishad, Adhyaya(Chapter) 4, Shloka(Verse) 20,

“na samdrse tishati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam” “his form cannot be seen, no one sees him with the eye”

“nasamdrse tishati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam. Hrda hrdistham manasa ya enam, evam vidur amrtas te bhavanti”

“His form is not to be seen; no one sees him with the eye. Those who through heart and mind know him as abiding in the heart become immortal”.

(The principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 737 & in sacred books of the east Volume 15, the Upanishad part II, page 253)

Similar message is given in the Holy Qur’an in Surah Anam, Chapter 6, Verse 103,

“No vision can grasp him. But his grasp is over all vision: he is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things”.

Vedas are the most sacred amongst all the Hindu scriptures, there are principally 4 Vedas, Rigved, Yajurved, Samved and Atharvaved.

a) Yajurveda, Chapter 32, Verse 3

It is mentioned in Yajurved, Chapter 32, Verse 3

“na tasya pratima asti” “There is no image of Him”

It further says as “He is unborn, He deserves our worship”

There is no image of him whose glory verily is great. He sustains within himself all luminous objects like the sun etc. may he not harm me, this is my prayer. As he is unborn, he deserves our worship”.

(The Yajurveda by Devi Chand M.A. page 377)

So where do you bring the images and idols from, on what basis , when your most sacred books teach otherwise. This often a common problem with religions and its followers, they pick and choose what they like to follow.

It is mentioned in Yajurved, Chapter 40, Verse 9

“Andhatma pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste”

“They enter darkness, those who worship natural things” For e.g. air, water, fire etc.

It further continues and says, “They sink deeper in darkness those who worship Sambhuti i.e. created things”, For example table, chair, idol etc.

“Deep into shade of blinding gloom fall asambhuti’s worshippers. They sink to darkness deeper yet who on sambhuti are intent”

(Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph T.H. Griffith page 538)

i think this ought to give you enough food for thought, i have not even gone deep in to it yet, the concept of god. I think i might just set up another thread on the concept of god in hinduism.

i could have gone so deep in to this, but i have better things to do, so i finish with a few quatations about muslims in india.....

Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru (India's Prime Minsiter 1947-64) in ‘The Discovery of India,’ 1946, p. 218, 225.

“The coming of Islam and of a considerable number of people from outside with different ways of living and thought affected these beliefs and structure. A foreign conquest, with all its evils, has one advantage: it widens the mental horizon of the people and compels them to look out of their shells. They realize that the world is a much bigger and a more variegated place than they had imagined. So the Afghan conquest had affected India and many changes had taken place. Even more so the Moghals, who were far more cultured and advanced in the ways of living than the Afghans, brought changes to India. In particular, they introduced the refinements for which Iran was famous.”

Dr. Pattabhi Sitaramayya, Presidential Address to the Fifty-fifth Session of the Indian Congress, Jaipur, 1948.

“(The Muslims had) enriched our culture, strengthened our administration, and brought near distant parts of the country... It (the Muslim Period) touched deeply the social life and the literature of the land.”

Dr. Gustav le Bon in 'Les Civilisations de L'Inde' (translated by S.A. Bilgrami).

"There does not exist a history of ancient India. Their books contain no historical data whatever, except for a few religious books in which historical information is buried under a heap of parables and folk-lore, and their buildings and other monuments also do nothing to fill the void for the oldest among them do not go beyond the third century B.C. To discover facts about India of the ancient times is as difficult a task as the discovery of the island of Atlantis, which, according to Plato, was destroyed due to the changes of the earth... The historical phase of India began with the Muslim invasion. Muslims were India's first historians."

thats just a small snippet of muslims in india, liek you posted hordes of rubbish against it, i could easily bring hordes of quotes to counter it. The poit is i accept some muslims may have treated poeple bad, but to paint everyone with the same brush is just ridiculous, it would be like me saying all hindus are warriors and fighters, who plunge and kill in the same ashoka did and other warrior kings of the past, this would be entirely unfair.

[VEER-AA]

HOW CAN U B SO SURE ---THAT LORD KALKI IS GOING TO COME IN 2012 --- ENLIGHTEN ME

[Probe]

hinduism in general does not encourage people to disrespect other religions and that has been the reason why many muslim/other religion folks took advantage and started this absolute propaganda of mohammed/jesus being foretold by hindu scriptures etc. i am well read in hinduism and as a practicing hindu never even read any where this muhammed being kalki. kalki is supposed to be the last avathar of Lord Vishnu. he will come on a white horse, wearing white clothes with a white sword from the sky. he will kill all the bad people with 'asura'(demonic) qualities and establish a rule of just. Lord Krishna himself told clearly in Bhagavadgita

"Parithrana Sadhunam, Vinashaya Cha dushkrutam

Dharma Sansthapanaarthaya, Sambhavami Yuge Yuge”

meaning

For the up-liftment of the good and virtuous,

For the destruction of evil,

For the re-establishment of the natural law,

I advent Myself millennium after millennium.

But now hindus are realizing that the good words spoken to them over centuries ago by saints and wise men are twisted by muslim fundamentalists and christian evangelicals for their advantage. i know 'bhavishya purana' and 'vishnu purana' mentions the arrival of god but i dont think he is here right now.

I didn't know Muslims and Christians were twisting Hindu scriptures. If they are doing it they are contradicting their fundamental beliefs. Muslims and Christians are not supposed to worship idols are condone the teaching of idol worshipers. They believe in Monotheism. It is ridiculous that some Muslims and Christian attempt to find religious connection with Hinduism. The 10 commandments is very clear about this. The first four commandments clearly emphasize on this importance of believing in one God.

1. I am the Lord your God

2. You shall have no other gods before me

3. You shall not make for yourself an idol

4. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God

Hinduism violates the first four commandments. There is absolutely no connection between religions based on Judaism and Hinduism.

[shayrekhan]

I didn't know Muslims and Christians were twisting Hindu scriptures. If they are doing it they are contradicting their fundamental beliefs. Muslims and Christians are not supposed to worship idols are condone the teaching of idol worshipers. They believe in Monotheism. It is ridiculous that some Muslims and Christian attempt to find religious connection with Hinduism. The 10 commandments is very clear about this. The first four commandments clearly emphasize on this importance of believing in one God.

1. I am the Lord your God

2. You shall have no other gods before me

3. You shall not make for yourself an idol

4. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God

Hinduism violates the first four commandments. There is absolutely no connection between religions based on Judaism and Hinduism.

They not saying that, from what I have read of all this thread, they saying that hinduism was monotheistic and lost its way. Its scriptures refers to worship of one god, so they not contradicting, they are telling the hindus the similarities in the religions.

The connection is there once you study their scriptures.

However I must say what a read this thread was, and if anyone needs to learn how to debate, then Ozi is the man. Where is this guy?

I have not seen anyone rebuttal point by point, with sources, references, intelligence, confidence and facts. Unbelievable!

He has had loads thrown at him, but bang, bang, bang, bang, he answers them all with no comebacks. This is guy is GOOD!

[Enigmatic Annasawzi]

WOW read the first page, wasn't brave enough to go through the last four good idea I didn't though.

Visnu enlightenign 60k, sounds alot like Jonestown all over again, only much larger.

EA

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Surely the smilarities between Islam and Hinduism could be chalked up to the whole "there is a God and he's trying to get the basics of his Laws out to as many folk as he can" rather then "I'm right, my religion is right, and you're wrong"?

It's far more in-tune with the idea of an All Loving God that He'd try and get everyone "on side" through their own "paths" or religions rather then saying "this is right, you're a pillock if you don't agree"?

[Enigmatic Annasawzi]

Surely the smilarities between Islam and Hinduism could be chalked up to the whole "there is a God and he's trying to get the basics of his Laws out to as many folk as he can" rather then "I'm right, my religion is right, and you're wrong"?

It's far more in-tune with the idea of an All Loving God that He'd try and get everyone "on side" through their own "paths" or religions rather then saying "this is right, you're a pillock if you don't agree"?

Yeah, right god is real, real fake if you ask me, it's just a bunch of people who can't admit to their own insanity, IT's ALL IN YOUR HEADS PEOPLE!

EA

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Yeah, right god is real, real fake if you ask me, it's just a bunch of people who can't admit to their own insanity, IT's ALL IN YOUR HEADS PEOPLE!

EA

Thank you so much for being able to engage with a concept that you disagree with in order to have a debate or a discourse of ideas.