IamsSon Posted February 24, 2008 #126 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Not if we're living in a clockwork universe. It's not always about invisible omnipotent beings. Especially for Atheists. How exactly would a clockwork universe be established? Doesn't clockwork imply organization? Let's do something. Grab a cup and fill it with nice, cool water. Now drink some of the water and put the cup down. Did you do that? Why? And if you didn't, why didn't you? Were you incapable of not completing either choice? Was there something that prevented you from following through on either choice? Were you compelled to do what you did? If you were not, then that means you have the complete ability to do what you want to do, and so. in every way that counts, you have free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bacca Posted February 24, 2008 #127 Share Posted February 24, 2008 No IamsSon, free will would imply that some God didn't already know what you were going to do....If there is an all knowing god then he already knows your choice so you really don't have free will your choice is already made, the only thing is your not privy to the information....still wouldn't make it free will.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMelsWell Posted February 24, 2008 #128 Share Posted February 24, 2008 The problem I have with that type of outlook is that it can be used against ANY arguement, yet still leaves us at square one. And square one is exactly where I want to be... why make it any more complicated? In my opinion, it's not really up for argument, hence my usage of terms like "opinion", "belief" and "personal". I'm big on the KISS theory. (KISS = keep it simple stupid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Am Will Posted February 24, 2008 #129 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Obviously, you did not bother to read my previous post (although you quoted it). The whole "is there free will or not" question is about nothing other than taking responsibility. If you have no free will, then you have no control over what you do, so you're not responsible for your actions or their consequences. The thing is, just asking the question is clear indication that you are capable of making a choice. The fact, that you can choose not to believe in God is more than enough in and of itself to show there is free will. Seriously, a Christian arguing against free will would be much more believable than an atheist arguing against free will. But god already knows we will make this decision so how is it our choice if you believe god knows everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggs Posted February 24, 2008 #130 Share Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) How exactly would a clockwork universe be established? Doesn't clockwork imply organization? No. It would imply cause and effect. You drop something, it falls. Gravity's a fairly good example, as it was Newtonian physics that sparked the idea, originally. Let's do something. Grab a cup and fill it with nice, cool water. Now drink some of the water and put the cup down. Did you do that? Why? And if you didn't, why didn't you? Were you incapable of not completing either choice? Was there something that prevented you from following through on either choice? Were you compelled to do what you did? If you were not, then that means you have the complete ability to do what you want to do, and so. in every way that counts, you have free will. You believe that the ability to make a decision is based on free will. I disagree. I believe that my decision to comply to your requests or otherwise is based purely on the information that I have available to me. In short, I believe that people make the best decisions they can with the information that they have available to them. If you manipulate the information flow, then you ultimately manipulate the decision that's being made. Information does this - It changes what you know, so it changes what you do. Sometimes, if you can do it carefully and cleverly enough, people don't realise that you're changing their information, which is why so much money is spent by big businesses, pitching marketing at the masses. Why else would these bastions of capitalism spend so much money bewitching us with advertising? It's simple. It's all about information and association. Always Coca Cola. Until you ditch it when you hear on the news that the latest batch has been tampered with. You have to love the Mass Media. "It changes what everyone knows, all at once". But scratch that. The really interesting question is...are you feeling slightly itchy? And if so...how could I have possibly predicted that you would feel itchy, given that you have free will? To paraphrase the Oracle from The Matrix - What's really going to boil your noodle later on is, would you still have felt itchy if you hadn't read this reply? Edited February 24, 2008 by Tiggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted February 24, 2008 #131 Share Posted February 24, 2008 How exactly would a clockwork universe be established? Doesn't clockwork imply organization? Let's do something. Grab a cup and fill it with nice, cool water. Now drink some of the water and put the cup down. Did you do that? Why? And if you didn't, why didn't you? Were you incapable of not completing either choice? Was there something that prevented you from following through on either choice? Were you compelled to do what you did? If you were not, then that means you have the complete ability to do what you want to do, and so. in every way that counts, you have free will. I read this now reach for a ciggy!!! You have no idea what free will really is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Am Will Posted February 24, 2008 #132 Share Posted February 24, 2008 How exactly would a clockwork universe be established? Doesn't clockwork imply organization? Let's do something. Grab a cup and fill it with nice, cool water. Now drink some of the water and put the cup down. Did you do that? Why? And if you didn't, why didn't you? Were you incapable of not completing either choice? Was there something that prevented you from following through on either choice? Were you compelled to do what you did? If you were not, then that means you have the complete ability to do what you want to do, and so. in every way that counts, you have free will. and yet you believe god knew what we were going to do before we did it as he is knows all. So really what choice did you really have if God already knew your choice? saying God is all knowing goes against the idea of free will. if i choose to drink water i may believe its my choice through free will but if god already knew i would drink it then i could never have chosen not to drink, so there is no choice, no free will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted February 25, 2008 #133 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) All I can add to this interesting debate is that god knows at least the probabilities of what is going to happen to me, either through omnipetent deduction and trend analysis, or through being able to step outside the linear nature of time and observe a kind of multiverse where all potentialities are possible. However, the future is not fixed or predestined, and I still have free will (although constrained by my environmenrt and back ground this is expanded by the nature of my consciousness and self awareness, not to mention intelligence.) How do i know this? Partly through the visions, dreams and warnings of future potential events affecting me that god gives me, and partly through the reason that the purpose of those warnings is to allow me to change those future outcomes to save myself from them happening. Sometimes they are just fun/amusing glimpses of the immediate or near future, but usually they are serious events about to befall me. Finally, where i fail to recognise, or act upon, those warnings; god takes physical actions within the real world to protect me, and to change the future of myself and the world around me. Dont ask me how, or more to the point why, he does this for/with me, but it has been a universal constant in my life for over 35 years. As Ive said before, I would have been dead many times, starting in my teens, if not for this form of intervention. Perhaps he does it simply because he can, or perhaps out of love. Elements of some interventions hint at a sense of humour in the way situations are resolved. Perhaps he knew that after 35 years of a continual personal connection with him I would start to tell my stories, and provide one more witness to an alternative reality which too many modern people refuse to contemplate. Edited February 25, 2008 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted February 25, 2008 Author #134 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I think both evolution and creationism concepts are true and accept both of them. The following is my own opinion. In the beginning God created spirits. In this concept, God didn't create species, such as human-beings, animals and plants - but only spirits. God gives freedom to all spirits and let them live on their own ways; then, these community of spirits is ruled by Karma. Then the spirits are evolving based on their own Karmas. This is close to what I believe. I have read in the pearl of great price and this is alluded to in revelations or at least part of it is. That God's spiritual children were given three test's. Those who failed the first test became the animals and possible the plants. Those who failed the second test were cast out and became demons. Those who failed the third test. Well we don't know what happened because this is the third test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted February 25, 2008 Author #135 Share Posted February 25, 2008 and yet you believe god knew what we were going to do before we did it as he is knows all. So really what choice did you really have if God already knew your choice? saying God is all knowing goes against the idea of free will. if i choose to drink water i may believe its my choice through free will but if god already knew i would drink it then i could never have chosen not to drink, so there is no choice, no free will Knowing what someone is going to do is not the same as them doing it. If a police officer knows someone is going to shoot someone else and kills said person before he leaves the house to do said shooting. That officer is still going to be charged with murder even if he has a signed conffusion(spch) from the dead person. Said person can still change his mind up until he pulls the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Am Will Posted February 25, 2008 #136 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) Knowing what someone is going to do is not the same as them doing it. If a police officer knows someone is going to shoot someone else and kills said person before he leaves the house to do said shooting. That officer is still going to be charged with murder even if he has a signed conffusion(spch) from the dead person. Said person can still change his mind up until he pulls the trigger. that doesnt really make sense. God knows what we will do for definate, the policeman does not know for definate. if you change your mind god knows you will change your mind so your decision was never in doubt, you would only ever make one choice. thats why i believe the possibility of an all knowing god is improbable. If i know the lottery numbers for each week before its drawn would you say the numbers happened by chance or it was rigged? That is not to say i changed them, just i knew the outcome. In that instance those numbers were always going to be drawn so there was no alternative. If you apply this to god and us, he knows everything, so we only have the dillusion of free will, our actions or decisions are already known so what choice did we really make. That is not to say God made us do that, but his very knowing of the outcome means there cannot be an alternative, so no free will. I cant believe people still believe in dated logic regarding religion and God. there is a reason our technology, medicine etc has moved on since then. I cant understand how people think humans attained detailed knowledge about God thousands of years ago yet we have progressed in every other manner. our concepts of God are clearly wrong as they are based on dated logic that we should have surpassed as we have with medicine for example. Only problem is religions do not want peoples views to change on religion as they then lose control, power. Tell me, if you had to control a large amount of people with limited intellect or knowledge of the world, is it not plausible telling people they will be judged by an all knowing all powerful god is a way of keeping control of them? this fear is the only reason religion has outlasted everything else from its time. Edited February 25, 2008 by I Am Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt_Ripley Posted February 25, 2008 #137 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) No IamsSon, free will would imply that some God didn't already know what you were going to do....If there is an all knowing god then he already knows your choice so you really don't have free will your choice is already made, the only thing is your not privy to the information....still wouldn't make it free will.... exactly ... easy to understand. either God is all knowing or God isn't . you can't play that card both ways. we are given the illusion of free will I believe in order to live a human existance. spiritually ever step is accounted for. nothing is coincidence or accident. all happens for a reason even if we aren't aware of it. Edited February 25, 2008 by Lt_Ripley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohan Posted February 25, 2008 #138 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) This is close to what I believe. I have read in the pearl of great price and this is alluded to in revelations or at least part of it is. That God's spiritual children were given three test's. Those who failed the first test became the animals and possible the plants. Those who failed the second test were cast out and became demons. Those who failed the third test. Well we don't know what happened because this is the third test. That's okay. But, my concept is really different from what you've mentioned above. In my concept, God doesn't do any intervention to His spiritual children. He gives them freedom. So, the tests by God story is invalid in my concept. Thank you. Edited February 25, 2008 by djohan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Am Will Posted February 25, 2008 #139 Share Posted February 25, 2008 That's okay. But, my concept is really different from what you've mentioned above. In my concept, God doesn't do any intervention to His spiritual children. He gives them freedom. So, the tests by God story is invalid in my concept. Thank you. dp you believe in jesus by any chance as thats surely intervention on Gods behalf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted February 25, 2008 Author #140 Share Posted February 25, 2008 That's okay. But, my concept is really different from what you've mentioned above. In my concept, God doesn't do any intervention to His spiritual children. He gives them freedom. So, the tests by God story is invalid in my concept. Thank you. I don't see how those three tests do anything to do away with freedom or god's intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohan Posted February 26, 2008 #141 Share Posted February 26, 2008 dp you believe in jesus by any chance as thats surely intervention on Gods behalf? I've heard much about Jesus. He teaches love. I don't want to comment more about his existence in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohan Posted February 26, 2008 #142 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I don't see how those three tests do anything to do away with freedom or god's intervention. In my concept of freedom from God - God just lets us be as we wish to be. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystlylizzy Posted February 26, 2008 #143 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Evolution and creationism have to conflict with each other. It seems that no body or at least very few people on here or in real life will accept that both could have happened. God created the planet knowing that the environment was going to change from what he had designed. Meaning that the animals that he created would also need to be able to change to coop with it. The only creature that didn't have to change was humans who would be able to change the environment to their needs. Or at the very least build a fire to fight off the cold. On this forum there has been at least one person who stated that if you believe in both you have to be a hypocrite. I do not think that I am a hypocrite just because I believe that God could design animals and plants to evolve to keep up with the environmental changes that would take place. I have no links. I agree. That big bang theorie. Why do we fight so much over it without thinking it could all happend for the same reason? All these things could have happend in order to become what they are today. God could have created the big bang to start everything. That is maybe how he created everything. Just the same with evolution. To have created the animals of today or the Bible's time, it probaly had to start with evolution. So everything could have been made as it was today. They talk about birds and other mammals and animals. and we know that there was dinosaurs and the Bible don't mention it. Or not what I have read. So it could have been EVOLUTION. So we could have been APES aswell a few back. Till some apes started to become humans... like adam and eve. they say one of adam's sons search and got a woman... How could this be while they were the only humans? Bible did not say (not what I know of) that after Adam and Eve's sons there was non other humans. They did say before that that Adam and Eve was the only ones. So evolution could have been busy that time. So suddenly some apes becomes humans. What do ya think of my own thinking theorie? Oh that may have been pretty made up... I don't believe in God. But I'm not dumb, I do know what's going on. That's what I can't understand why some people can't even think so far. Probaly for safity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted February 27, 2008 Author #144 Share Posted February 27, 2008 I agree. That big bang theorie. Why do we fight so much over it without thinking it could all happend for the same reason? All these things could have happend in order to become what they are today. God could have created the big bang to start everything. That is maybe how he created everything. Just the same with evolution. To have created the animals of today or the Bible's time, it probaly had to start with evolution. So everything could have been made as it was today. They talk about birds and other mammals and animals. and we know that there was dinosaurs and the Bible don't mention it. Or not what I have read. So it could have been EVOLUTION. So we could have been APES aswell a few back. Till some apes started to become humans... like adam and eve. they say one of adam's sons search and got a woman... How could this be while they were the only humans? Bible did not say (not what I know of) that after Adam and Eve's sons there was non other humans. They did say before that that Adam and Eve was the only ones. So evolution could have been busy that time. So suddenly some apes becomes humans. What do ya think of my own thinking theorie? Oh that may have been pretty made up... I don't believe in God. But I'm not dumb, I do know what's going on. That's what I can't understand why some people can't even think so far. Probaly for safity The bible doesn't mention the Chinese or the Americas. So I guess they don't exist either. Adam and Eve lived for about 500 years have children. They didn't just have three kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCrimsonx Posted March 13, 2008 #145 Share Posted March 13, 2008 (edited) here Sir DL Ive found this read......... Evelution vs. Creation http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/ORIGINS/origins.html Beliefs About Origins. http:/www.religioustolerance.org/evolutio.htm "me no get linky to work" ^ cut 'n' paste for search on heaps of this stuff!!!! I dont know a whole lot about all this sort of thing, looks like Ive some reading to do. I myself think that we are all still dangling from Alien puppet strings, a big joke of an experiment. In this, from the evidence of evolutution we where all microrganizims once, and evolved. Im not dissing the big fellow up stairs but.............. theres evidence of dinosaurs, etc. So why is it that you dont hear about any of this in the bible?? If god created everything then if so proud of his creation why not show us evidence way back when they created the bible. We spend our time wondering where from, who, what, how we came to be here. Did he plan for us to evolve to the point of actually having evidence and one day proving it. [/i] Peace and harmony is what I thought religion was about, feed the sick and homeless, pray. Did god create us so we would have to pray for our sins and Jesus's death?? (purely just to die) To me that sounds a bit like, "I died because of humans, and I rose besause of god". "Now for the rest of exsistance you will worship me." The univers is a big place for the sake of Jesus etc, for him to die for our sins........ what has the rest of space got to do with that. God created man and woman, yadda, yadda, so wheres the rest of them, out there, billions of miles of space. I find it hard to believe we are the only ones. How crule is that if we are the only ones here, he created us, we evolved now weve wrecked our planet and where not going to find another to wreck in time before ours is unliveable. Thats my dribble.......... xcrimsonx Edited March 13, 2008 by xCrimsonx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sede-x-teh-bomb Posted March 13, 2008 #146 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Adam and Eve lived for about 500 years have children. They didn't just have three kids. o yea of course they did lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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