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To those who believe the 911 official story


Zaus

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Nonsense. The simple fact is that...

You said Rodriguez "questions the reality of the fireball"

You said Rodriguez "suggests that there was no fireball"

You said Rodriguez "mentions the fireball only to question whether it was real"

You said Rodriguez "is again now claiming that there was no fireball"

It's your claim. You made this very same claim, repeatedly.

Now, if you didn't really mean it (in that exact way), then at least show some backbone and admit to your mistake. But don't try and twist it around as if I'm the one at fault here, because you'll just end up looking like a weasel.

You call Rodriguez a liar, claiming that he changed his story. But with your comments, I could already make a better case against you for changing your story. It's quite ironic.

OK, it's the theory that the fireball came down the liftshaft rather than the fireball coming out of the liftshaft that Rodriguez changed his story about, satisfied? In context, I think it was obvious which of these I was using "fireball" as shorthand for, and I still think this is a quibble on your part, petty and irrelevant as you say.

But that would be petty and irrelevant to the main issue, so I'll move along...

What you (now) claim is...

"In his early statements Rodriguez says that a fireball came down the liftshaft, in his later statements he denies this. The basic question of his reliability as a witness is right there."

I assume his comments below are still considered to be your evidence?.....

The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building. And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A person comes running into the office saying explosion, explosion, explosion. When I look at this guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th (50A) – freight elevator, the biggest freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his skin vaporized.

He says-A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators. The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground- Very strange indeed ,since there were only one elevator shaft (the 50A car) that went all the way to B6, the operator was inside, Mr. Griffith and he survived with a broken ankles. He should have died burnt since on this theory the ball of fire went down. He is alive and well and I will interview him in the future to clear the disinformation.

This was taken from his first comments above...

"And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force.."

Rodriguez asked the man who suffered these horrific burns ... "what happened?".

And so, the man tells him - "He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force.."

Now, think carefully - Is this Rodriguez' first-hand account of the event, or is Rodriguez recalling what the burned man told him at the time?

There is no possible way Rodriguez is giving his own account here. Rodriguez didn't know what had happened. He specifically asked the burned man "what happened?", so the burned man told him.

Your claim that this was Rodriguez' personal account of the event is wrong. It's the burned man's account of the event, as told to Rodriguez at the time, and Rodriguez is recalling what he was told by the burned man, in his statement to NIST.

That was your basis for accusing Rodriguez of changing his story later on. It's invalid, because it was not Rodriguez' original claim to begin with.

The 1692 Salem witch trials look respectable, compared to Roberts' smear campaign against Rodriguez. What you don't yet realize is just how much of a smear campaign it is.

Anything else, or is this despicable non-issue finally settled?

It looks to me as if Rodriguez is interpreting the burned man's evidence and providing his own explanation for it, first as a fireball coming down the shaft, later denying it. If he is relying on other peoples stories and has no first-hand experience, how is he so certain now that those other people were wrong? If he always thought the fireball was actually a bomb at a low level in the building, why didn't he say so in his NIST interview? Why didn't he mention it among all his claims in his 2004 lawsuit?

That apart, what are your opinions on the other areas where Roberts says that Rodriguez has lied? His conflicting accounts of his lawsuit? That he was the only witness before the 9/11 commission not to be questioned in public? How about this from Roberts, quoting Rodruigez:

"My story has not changed." But, "It is a well known fact that I was believeing the goverment official story early on. As I asked questions and put things together, the whole thing changed from their side and also from mine." Then, "I do not say there were bombs in the building."

Two incompatible statements followed by a false statement. Rodriguez does say that there were bombs in the WTC towers, and several aspects of his story have changed drastically. His account of what he heard in the basements has changed. Perhaps the greatest change is that Rodriguez used to blame al Qaeda for the 9/11 attacks. Now he blames George Bush for sponsoring the terrorist attacks as an excuse to invade Iraq. His distrust of the government began more than a year after the attacks when he learned that the 9/11 Commission wouldn't include any family members of victims...or did that distrust begin within days, or weeks?

Edited by flyingswan
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Damn it, silly me, I forgot about GRAVITY! Oh no, wait, I remember what I was thinking now… the 47 floors between the roof and basement… how does the debris of an explosion pass through all of them?

Sorry, the CD charges are in the basement now? I thought you were claiming that the puffs of smoke high up were CD charges? Do you really think you could CD the top floor of a building without causing damage to the floors beneath? Why do you think that the demolition firms don't use such a technique?

And which of those ‘contributors’ made any significant input to the conclusions of NIST’s investigation? Most of these are just the technical support staffs that work for NIST, not the core of the team, and could have played a minor role such as in data input or calculations on pre-specified parameters. As I said, there are only two staff ultimately responsible for the conclusions of arguably the most important of NIST’s papers.

Most of those people are from outside structural engineering consultancies, universities and such, only one page is NIST support staff, and what makes you think that NIST staff were only capable of playing a minor role? You don't get your name on a big report like that unless you make a contribution.

NIST did follow the process you describe above and found that the expected impact did not cause collapse. NIST then all at once increased the airliner speed, weight and failure strain, whilst reducing the Tower’s weight and failure strain from the base case to reach a collapse situation. All NIST have done in effect is to supply the figures that would cause collapse; a better example of ‘fixing’ the data to support a desired conclusion could not be found.

Check the actual sequence of events: NIST realised there were uncertainties in the impact parameters and also in some of the building properties, so they set up three sets of input data for their simulations, and ran all three. The baseline case was their best estimate for these input parameters, the other two cases covered the low and high ends of the plausible variation. The best fit to the data happened to be intermediate between their baseline and more severe case. They did not change the input parameters to fit the results, though on the other long thread you seemed to think it suspicious that they didn't. Now you are claiming that they did and that this is also suspicious. As I've said many times before, you can fit anything you like to your theory because it is unfalsifiable.

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Some have incorrectly tried to say there is no way the penthouse collapse fits a controlled demolition but really the only nonsense idea I have heard is that limited fire at a low level caused the penthouse to burrow its way down internally through 47 odd floors 'hollowing out' the building. :huh:

The witnesses on the spot didn't see the fire as limited or confined to low levels:

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/eyewitness...untsofwtc7fires

and structural engineers don't seem to have your problem with the fires causing the collapse:

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-...lsanz-Nov07.pdf

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I don't know what's in the water, but I found a website listing the names and opinions, of what I can only describe as a populace affected by some sort of general paranoia syndrome. They represent a cross-section of Washington bureaucrats and ex-military ( I assume ex-military), who think the President outdid himself by helping to kill all those who died on 9-11.

This is my last ever post on this subject. You can play patty-cakes with loonies just so long, before you get sick to your stomach. And, from what I see, Washington is where a lot of cream rose to the top- and went sour.

This whole idea of twisting some historical events, playing those videos of that day in New York while outright fabricating stupid explanations for the obvious, is just so much idiocy that I have had my fill of it.

Lunatics. Young and old! Kids and grown ups, alike! Crazies! God help us. I don't know how we manage, sometimes...

Edited by merril
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I take what hazzard has to say very seriously, and I'm glad that finally someone came out to show everyone how ridiculous the conspiracy claims actually are. In fact, my greatest reason for not believing the conspiracy theories is the fact that so many people would have to be quieted, or have to agree with the motive in the first place. It would be sociologically impossible for the conspiracy claims to be true. However, most theorists do not take into account this fact, and as I have noticed:

All of those loony exaggerations of yours have already been responded to many times, I did so as well in a previous thread months ago when I was last on this site. Perhaps you would do better by avoiding posting such a blatant misrepresentation of what other peoople are saying.

some take immediate offense when counter-evidence is presented. I still have yet to see how it would be possible so many people to be involved in this, and so far the people I have discussed with have merely put off explaining this, or gave explanations such as bribery, or fear of death. But they have not yet made any valid arguments as to how this would be at all likely.

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Perhaps you'd better check with q24 as to how large the supposed CD charges are supposed to be. He says the molten cascade down WTC2 was a misplaced charge going off, and estimates of the amount of material in the cascade range from severl hundred kgs to several tonnes. He's also posted a link to a video of a thermite device that can cut a column, and it's much bigger than the column it cuts.

If turbs is talking about linear shaped charges or similar which can be

, then they could easily be concealed beneath the fireproofing. The thermite charges would need to be larger units though. Anyhow, selective placement, whatever the charge type, is sufficient for concealment of the controlled demolition providing that WTC security and/or maintenance was overviewed by the ‘correct’ people.
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Sorry, the CD charges are in the basement now? I thought you were claiming that the puffs of smoke high up were CD charges? Do you really think you could CD the top floor of a building without causing damage to the floors beneath? Why do you think that the demolition firms don't use such a technique?

It makes me laugh how you ‘act dumb’ when it suits. You know very well that in a controlled demolition the charges may be placed throughout the building, including at high levels to break up the structure and basement levels to destroy the supports. I am asking how a charge at the roof level could pass through up to 47 levels to damage the setup possibly at ground or basement level. Yes I really do know (not think) that demolition charges go off at high levels prior to the main supports being cut low down – as can be witnessed in many conventional controlled demolitions.

You don't get your name on a big report like that unless you make a contribution.

Of course… but what level and area of contribution is key. As for instance in movies where hundreds of crew are involved, the make-up artists and soundtrack composers are listed in the credits, obviously without ever getting close to having a say in the plot – they are just there to make someone else’s fiction look and sound good. ;)

Check the actual sequence of events: NIST realised there were uncertainties in the impact parameters and also in some of the building properties, so they set up three sets of input data for their simulations, and ran all three. The baseline case was their best estimate for these input parameters, the other two cases covered the low and high ends of the plausible variation. The best fit to the data happened to be intermediate between their baseline and more severe case. They did not change the input parameters to fit the results, though on the other long thread you seemed to think it suspicious that they didn't.

The order of events is irrelevant – we don’t know if NIST really created their extreme case in the inception stage or added it afterwards. If NIST had originally ran only with the expected case and found it did not initiate collapse they would soon have increased the damage parameters until it did. Likewise, even if the severe case as we know it did not initiate collapse I have absolutely no doubt they would have cranked up the damage levels another few notches to give the desired result… and some would still be championing how the “best fit was intermediate to the plausible variations”.

As in the other thread, let’s not miss the point here that NIST’s severe case exceeded the damage to the Towers that is observable in video evidence, ie the only damage case that NIST proved to initiate collapse was undeniably an exaggeration of reality.

and structural engineers don't seem to have your problem with the fires causing the collapse:

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-...lsanz-Nov07.pdf

Ah, Gilsanz again. Not only has he released his own ‘paper’ that happens to be so vague and inconclusive it would be laughable if held up as evidence for the ‘official’ story, but he was also a member of FEMA’s original investigation team and is listed as one of NIST’s ‘contributors’ – he gets about a bit then and is hardly the most unbiased of sources.

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I take what hazzard has to say very seriously, and I'm glad that finally someone came out to show everyone how ridiculous the conspiracy claims actually are. In fact, my greatest reason for not believing the conspiracy theories is the fact that so many people would have to be quieted, or have to agree with the motive in the first place. It would be sociologically impossible for the conspiracy claims to be true. However, most theorists do not take into account this fact, and as I have noticed:

some take immediate offense when counter-evidence is presented. I still have yet to see how it would be possible so many people to be involved in this, and so far the people I have discussed with have merely put off explaining this, or gave explanations such as bribery, or fear of death. But they have not yet made any valid arguments as to how this would be at all likely.

That is indeed what i've often said. The argument seems to be that only a few demolition experts would need to be in on it; but surely, supposing that the towers were demolished also presupposes that the planes must also have been part of the conspiracy, unless it was all an enormous coincidence and charges were planted when they heard about a hijacking plot being planned, and got them ready to set them off just at the right time? Surely, otherwise, if we're bringing the planes in as part of the plot, that means that many, many more people would have to have been in on it; staff at the airports, ATC, NORAD, pilots, those who arranged the fake planes (depending on what one's particular theory might be). All of whom were either suppressed once they'd done the job, or have never been prompted by their conscience to come forward since?

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I take what hazzard has to say very seriously, and I'm glad that finally someone came out to show everyone how ridiculous the conspiracy claims actually are. In fact, my greatest reason for not believing the conspiracy theories is the fact that so many people would have to be quieted, or have to agree with the motive in the first place. It would be sociologically impossible for the conspiracy claims to be true. However, most theorists do not take into account this fact, and as I have noticed:

some take immediate offense when counter-evidence is presented. I still have yet to see how it would be possible so many people to be involved in this, and so far the people I have discussed with have merely put off explaining this, or gave explanations such as bribery, or fear of death. But they have not yet made any valid arguments as to how this would be at all likely.

I take hazzard seriously as well; for good reason:

He is seriously adept, logical, suffers no illusions, and speaks from a platform of common sense.

So, it seems, do you Doc...Your post here describes the very heart of the implausibility of these supposedly massive conspiracies...one that's seems to esacape "believers" time and time again.

It isn't possible for so many to be involved...

However, it is...in a strange way, rather fun to watch the unqualified, CT mind argue with a qualified engineer about matters they have no real knowledge about (which is what we are observing in this thread...)!

;)

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Lets take a look at what the 911 conspiracy believers, the "inside job" loonies, are asking us to believe....

All the people who would have to be involved in order to pull this massive conspiracy off.

-The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did. Yet all of them and the people below are helping him cover up the largest mass murder in US history...

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of them. Many of these men and women come from the military yet we are to believe they are so afraid they rather die in the governments next mass murder than come out and expose this.

-The courts for imposing a gag rule

-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. Motive? None...

-The NYC port Authority who lost personnel. Motive?

-All the people in the pentagon who have not called for an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Why? again, no answer...

-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money... [note: Whenever killing someone, pay off the relative. They wont say anything.]

-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like like the BBC and Al Jeezera. Why? No answer here either...

-The photographers from around the world who took pictures of the towers which clearly show bowing of the perimeter columns. These photos support the NIST hypothesis that the sagging trusses lead to the collapse. Some photos also show the core intact shortly after collapse which also not only support the NIST hypothesis but discredits the "Controlled demolition" account.

-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites are also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history.

-PBS Nova since they created a documentary explaining in detail how and why the buildings fell. None of it said bomb.

-Everyone in the NIST who covers up the largest mass murder in US history. This independent org doesn't have a moral person in hundreds of employees because not one has come out exposing this so called "Conspiracy". In fact the hundreds of scientist who signed onto the report are willing to not only lie for Bush but cover up the largest mass murder in American history. Some suggest only a hand full can do the job but that's simply impossible. The team in charge of the computer modeling has to be in sync with the team in structural engineers and so on. There are hundreds involved in this investigation and every team has to work other teams using the same evidence and specifications.

-NY Governor Pataki because he sold steel to from the WTC for the construction of the USS New York. If the argument is the government sold the steel in order to cover up the crime then Pataki is one of the criminals.

-The NY city scrap yards because they also sold steel to china before all of it was tested. Bush would have needed to call them up and tell them to sell it before they could have investigated every beam. A task which would have taken years and years not to mention millions more. Ironically the republican Mayor Bloomberg could not be involved since he asked the scrap yards not to sell the steel on behalf of the fire fighters.

-EVERY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down and could not have fallen due to fire. If laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right? Even the ones in other countries. Why? The answer they give is the engineers don't know about Jones work. So in all this time no one has e-mailed Jones's work to any structural engineer?

-The liberals who don't believe the towers were brought down. They're helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why" No clue...

-The CIA

-The FBI

-FEMA

-The American Society of Civil Engineers who have produced peer reviewed papers showing how what Conspiracy Theorist say is impossible is possible.

-NORAD

-The FAA who saw planes which conspiracy theorist never existed.

-The Silverstein Group who they say got together with Bush to blow up the building for insurance money.

-Silverstein's Insurance Company who didn't question the collapse and paid out over 2 billion to Silverstein. Why? Conspiracy Theorist say the insurance company just wants to pass on the bill to the public but they already fought Silverstein in a number of law suits concerning the amount.

-American Airlines (Pentagon)

-United Airlines (Pentagon)

-Logan, Newark and Dulles Airport for losing the planes

-Scientists and engineers who developed the remote control plane technology

-Installers of the remote control devices in the planes (Pentagon)

-Remote controllers of the planes (Pentagon)

-Scientists and engineers who developed the new demolition technology and carried out practical tests and computer models to make sure it would work.

-Installers of the demolitions devices in the three buildings

-People who worked at the company(s) the installers used as cover

-Airphone etc employees who said they got calls from passengers (Pentagon)

-Faux friends and relatives of the faux passengers or just the faux relatives who claim to have been called by their loved ones or just the psyops who fooled relatives into thinking they really were their loved ones. (Pentagon)

-People who detonated the buildings"

-anyone who thinks the conspiracy is a diversion to take liberal activist focus off of real crimes.

Even conspiracies with a few people are doomed, Look at Enron and Watergate. The more people you involved the more likely the conspiracy will fall apart. The amount of people needed for this conspiracy could fill one of the towers. It's absurd to think this many people could keep a mass murder for Bush secret for this long.

Controlled demolition!!!!!??

No planes?!

Perhaps someone should tell that to Stanley Praimnath who was on the 81st floor of WTC 2.

"What I see is a big plane coming towards me. This plane is coming, eye level towards me. Eye contact. I'm seeing a big gray plane, with a red stripe.

The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway. "

Sorry but I'll listen to the people that were there and actually saw the events occuring with their own eyes over someone who's entire claim is "Everyone else is lying to you." If a plane didn't hit the Pentagon explain how the wreakage got there, this was not a small amount either, it was quite a pile and included passanger luggage as well as pieces of fuselage, seats, glass from windows, the data flight recorders for Flight 77 and engine parts. How come all the passangers and the crew's remains (except for one small girl) were recovered from the Pentagon, or are you going to claim all the rescue services were in on it too?

How many people do you claim are in on this? Let's see so far as I can tell, all the survivors, all of those in Manhatten who saw the planes that morning. All of those in Washington DC that saw them. The check in staff at Logon and Boston who saw and identified the Hijackers (including one girl who commited suicide because of what she considered her part in not stopping them.) Every firefighter, ambulance worker and police officer who attended the three scene, including those that were killed. Every Structural Engineer, half the CT crowd, nearly everyone on boards that actually know what they are talking about.

So what's that? At least a hundred thousand people? (probably more.) How exactly do you shut up that many people? You can't pay them all $10 million, that'd be $10 Trillion. The US GDP is only $11 Trillion. So how do you keep them from spilling the beans? How do you stop them taking the money and spilling the beans? By threatening to kill them? If so, what's to stop the same killers coming after you?

Even the conspiracy lovers would have to think -anyone who believes this needs to seek the nearest mental health professional.

Conspiracists in general, and 9/11 conspiracists in particular, will not criticize any claim, no matter how blatantly at odds with reality or with the the other conspiracy stories, as long as it "supports" the overall existence of the conspiracy.

This is because they are interested in lashing out at the perceived power structure, not in discovering any kind of objective truth.

God help anyone ignorant enough to buy into this crap.

Finally, someone with some sense.

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Lets take a look at what the 911 conspiracy believers, the "inside job" loonies, are asking us to believe....

All the people who would have to be involved in order to pull this massive conspiracy off.

-The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did. Yet all of them and the people below are helping him cover up the largest mass murder in US history...

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of them. Many of these men and women come from the military yet we are to believe they are so afraid they rather die in the governments next mass murder than come out and expose this.

-The courts for imposing a gag rule

-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. Motive? None...

-The NYC port Authority who lost personnel. Motive?

-All the people in the pentagon who have not called for an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Why? again, no answer...

-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money... [note: Whenever killing someone, pay off the relative. They wont say anything.]

-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like like the BBC and Al Jeezera. Why? No answer here either...

-The photographers from around the world who took pictures of the towers which clearly show bowing of the perimeter columns. These photos support the NIST hypothesis that the sagging trusses lead to the collapse. Some photos also show the core intact shortly after collapse which also not only support the NIST hypothesis but discredits the "Controlled demolition" account.

-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites are also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history.

-PBS Nova since they created a documentary explaining in detail how and why the buildings fell. None of it said bomb.

-Everyone in the NIST who covers up the largest mass murder in US history. This independent org doesn't have a moral person in hundreds of employees because not one has come out exposing this so called "Conspiracy". In fact the hundreds of scientist who signed onto the report are willing to not only lie for Bush but cover up the largest mass murder in American history. Some suggest only a hand full can do the job but that's simply impossible. The team in charge of the computer modeling has to be in sync with the team in structural engineers and so on. There are hundreds involved in this investigation and every team has to work other teams using the same evidence and specifications.

-NY Governor Pataki because he sold steel to from the WTC for the construction of the USS New York. If the argument is the government sold the steel in order to cover up the crime then Pataki is one of the criminals.

-The NY city scrap yards because they also sold steel to china before all of it was tested. Bush would have needed to call them up and tell them to sell it before they could have investigated every beam. A task which would have taken years and years not to mention millions more. Ironically the republican Mayor Bloomberg could not be involved since he asked the scrap yards not to sell the steel on behalf of the fire fighters.

-EVERY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down and could not have fallen due to fire. If laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right? Even the ones in other countries. Why? The answer they give is the engineers don't know about Jones work. So in all this time no one has e-mailed Jones's work to any structural engineer?

-The liberals who don't believe the towers were brought down. They're helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why" No clue...

-The CIA

-The FBI

-FEMA

-The American Society of Civil Engineers who have produced peer reviewed papers showing how what Conspiracy Theorist say is impossible is possible.

-NORAD

-The FAA who saw planes which conspiracy theorist never existed.

-The Silverstein Group who they say got together with Bush to blow up the building for insurance money.

-Silverstein's Insurance Company who didn't question the collapse and paid out over 2 billion to Silverstein. Why? Conspiracy Theorist say the insurance company just wants to pass on the bill to the public but they already fought Silverstein in a number of law suits concerning the amount.

-American Airlines (Pentagon)

-United Airlines (Pentagon)

-Logan, Newark and Dulles Airport for losing the planes

-Scientists and engineers who developed the remote control plane technology

-Installers of the remote control devices in the planes (Pentagon)

-Remote controllers of the planes (Pentagon)

-Scientists and engineers who developed the new demolition technology and carried out practical tests and computer models to make sure it would work.

-Installers of the demolitions devices in the three buildings

-People who worked at the company(s) the installers used as cover

-Airphone etc employees who said they got calls from passengers (Pentagon)

-Faux friends and relatives of the faux passengers or just the faux relatives who claim to have been called by their loved ones or just the psyops who fooled relatives into thinking they really were their loved ones. (Pentagon)

-People who detonated the buildings"

-anyone who thinks the conspiracy is a diversion to take liberal activist focus off of real crimes.

Even conspiracies with a few people are doomed, Look at Enron and Watergate. The more people you involved the more likely the conspiracy will fall apart. The amount of people needed for this conspiracy could fill one of the towers. It's absurd to think this many people could keep a mass murder for Bush secret for this long.

Controlled demolition!!!!!??

No planes?!

Perhaps someone should tell that to Stanley Praimnath who was on the 81st floor of WTC 2.

"What I see is a big plane coming towards me. This plane is coming, eye level towards me. Eye contact. I'm seeing a big gray plane, with a red stripe.

The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway. "

Sorry but I'll listen to the people that were there and actually saw the events occuring with their own eyes over someone who's entire claim is "Everyone else is lying to you." If a plane didn't hit the Pentagon explain how the wreakage got there, this was not a small amount either, it was quite a pile and included passanger luggage as well as pieces of fuselage, seats, glass from windows, the data flight recorders for Flight 77 and engine parts. How come all the passangers and the crew's remains (except for one small girl) were recovered from the Pentagon, or are you going to claim all the rescue services were in on it too?

How many people do you claim are in on this? Let's see so far as I can tell, all the survivors, all of those in Manhatten who saw the planes that morning. All of those in Washington DC that saw them. The check in staff at Logon and Boston who saw and identified the Hijackers (including one girl who commited suicide because of what she considered her part in not stopping them.) Every firefighter, ambulance worker and police officer who attended the three scene, including those that were killed. Every Structural Engineer, half the CT crowd, nearly everyone on boards that actually know what they are talking about.

So what's that? At least a hundred thousand people? (probably more.) How exactly do you shut up that many people? You can't pay them all $10 million, that'd be $10 Trillion. The US GDP is only $11 Trillion. So how do you keep them from spilling the beans? How do you stop them taking the money and spilling the beans? By threatening to kill them? If so, what's to stop the same killers coming after you?

Even the conspiracy lovers would have to think -anyone who believes this needs to seek the nearest mental health professional.

Conspiracists in general, and 9/11 conspiracists in particular, will not criticize any claim, no matter how blatantly at odds with reality or with the the other conspiracy stories, as long as it "supports" the overall existence of the conspiracy.

This is because they are interested in lashing out at the perceived power structure, not in discovering any kind of objective truth.

God help anyone ignorant enough to buy into this crap.

That's what I was going to type but you got there first.....dang. But seriously, you'd have to be dumber than a bucket of frogs to believe that everybody involved & complicit in the death (murder) of 3000 of their own citizens would keep quiet about it. Not one idiot (& lets face it there are plenty of them out there) going to the press to spill the beans.

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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All the people who would have to be involved in order to pull this massive conspiracy off.

-The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did. Yet all of them and the people below are helping him cover up the largest mass murder in US history...

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of them. Many of these men and women come from the military yet we are to believe they are so afraid they rather die in the governments next mass murder than come out and expose this.

Only select individuals in the Bush Administration would need to be ‘in the know’. There is a good chance Bush himself had nothing to do with planning or implementation of the operation other than to be told “we are going to provide you with a pretext to act upon”, though I will highlight Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and any other PNAC members as main players.

The FDNY were not a part of the operation and neither was there any need for them to be. There are many firefighter statements exposing the operation, including mention of the relatively small isolated fires in WTC2 and explosions prior to collapse on multiple floors.

-The courts for imposing a gag rule

-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. Motive? None...

-The NYC port Authority who lost personnel. Motive?

Again, ‘the courts’ is far too expansive a description – try ‘a few influential individuals within the FBI’ to bring about gag orders on the grounds of ‘national security’ instead.

There was absolutely no need for the NYPD, as with the FDNY, to be involved in the operation. Indeed the NYPD did a good job in detaining the Israeli agents reported for celebrating the WTC attacks but then handed the suspects over to the FBI (remember those few influential individuals above).

Why would the Port Authority have anything to do with the operation? They are one of the worst hit areas, having to subsidise through liberty bonds rebuilding work that Silverstein should by rights be paying for, ie $475million in the case of WTC7 alone.

-All the people in the pentagon who have not called for an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Why? again, no answer...

Though it would hardly need a truck to bring in the minimal recognisable debris found at the Pentagon site, I am inclined to believe an aircraft did impact the Pentagon so no employees of the building would be required to cover-up.

-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money... [note: Whenever killing someone, pay off the relative. They wont say anything.]

-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like like the BBC and Al Jeezera. Why? No answer here either...

-The photographers from around the world who took pictures of the towers which clearly show bowing of the perimeter columns. These photos support the NIST hypothesis that the sagging trusses lead to the collapse. Some photos also show the core intact shortly after collapse which also not only support the NIST hypothesis but discredits the "Controlled demolition" account.

This is getting more ridiculous as it goes on. Are you aware that without pressure from the victims’ families there would likely never have even been a 9/11 Commission formed at all. Bill Doyle, board member of the Coalition of 9/11 Families has stated his belief that the U.S. government was complicit in the attacks, and estimates this conclusion is shared by half of the families he represents.

Although Al Jazeera, European and even the US media have followed up on the conspiracy to some extent, the mainstream news is a political tool, owned by a limited number of individuals. An example of this is Rupert Murdoch who controls 175(!) newspapers plus TV news channels in each of the US, UK and also Asia. And do you think it is a coincidence that every one of those 175 newspapers editorialises in favour of the Iraq war?

I have yet to see pictures that ‘clearly’ show bowing of the perimeters to the naked eye (you have to trust NIST’s calculations to what degree it exists) and in any case this can be explained through a controlled demolition scenario. There are no photos that show the core columns intact after collapse either – the ‘spire’ seen in some photos is the external corner column of the Tower. So… no photographers were in on the operation.

-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites are also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history.

-PBS Nova since they created a documentary explaining in detail how and why the buildings fell. None of it said bomb.

-Everyone in the NIST who covers up the largest mass murder in US history. This independent org doesn't have a moral person in hundreds of employees because not one has come out exposing this so called "Conspiracy". In fact the hundreds of scientist who signed onto the report are willing to not only lie for Bush but cover up the largest mass murder in American history. Some suggest only a hand full can do the job but that's simply impossible. The team in charge of the computer modeling has to be in sync with the team in structural engineers and so on. There are hundreds involved in this investigation and every team has to work other teams using the same evidence and specifications.

See comments above for the political motivations of the mainstream media - Popular Mechanics is owned by Hearst, another large media corporation with interests in 128 newspapers, nearly 200 magazines and 28 television stations which reach a combined 18% of all US viewers. This is not good for freedom of reporting. Also I should just add that Popular Mechanics ‘debunking’ is an attack on false arguments or ‘strawmen’ in any case.

The Nova documentary at the time supported a version of the ‘pancake’ collapse theory that has long since been debunked first by ‘conspiracists’ and eventually by NIST’s official investigation itself. Yes, the Nova scientists got the collapse process completely wrong but that does not mean they are in on the operation.

NIST were tasked with determining why and how the WTC Towers collapsed after the initial airliner impacts – despite having no physical evidence in support of their conclusion, exaggerating damage levels and halting their study at the point of collapse initiation, it could be said they supplied figures to loosely meet the said objective. Therefore, ‘everyone’ in NIST did not need to be involved in a cover-up; only individuals at the top level to set and guide the preconceived conclusion.

-NY Governor Pataki because he sold steel to from the WTC for the construction of the USS New York. If the argument is the government sold the steel in order to cover up the crime then Pataki is one of the criminals.

-The NY city scrap yards because they also sold steel to china before all of it was tested. Bush would have needed to call them up and tell them to sell it before they could have investigated every beam. A task which would have taken years and years not to mention millions more. Ironically the republican Mayor Bloomberg could not be involved since he asked the scrap yards not to sell the steel on behalf of the fire fighters.

Sure, whoever ordered evidence from the crime scene to be destroyed was either in on the operation or influenced by an individual who was. Major Giuliani seemed to be co-ordinating much in the aftermath of the attacks and had a command bunker in WTC7 where many people believe the operation was planned, also giving motivation for that building’s destruction.

The clean-up crews and scrap yards were just doing their job – they were not in on the operation.

-EVERY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down and could not have fallen due to fire. If laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?

Wrong. There are in fact more independent construction professionals who have spoken out against the ‘official’ story than are in favour of it. Having papers containing controversial conclusions, eg “you are being lied to”, peer reviewed for professional journal publication is unrealistic in the current political climate and comes back to issues such as government grants and the mainstream media corporations talked about above.

-The CIA

-The FBI

-FEMA

Not ‘the CIA’ as a whole but individuals of branches within the CIA that infiltrated Al Qaeda and are reported to have met with Osama Bin Laden shortly before 9/11, certainly seem to have been involved in the operation. Let’s not forget that Al Qaeda was in part an invention of the CIA in the first place.

Again, ‘elements of the FBI’ including those who lived with two of the hijackers and allowed the detained Israeli agents’ releases after 9/11 would have been involved.

See comments for NIST above - FEMA, being a government agency, gave the findings expected of them to meet the preconceived conclusion set out with only the very top levels perhaps requiring knowledge of the operation. Incidentally, head of the agency on 9/11 was Joe Allbaugh who helped manage Bush’s election campaign.

-The American Society of Civil Engineers who have produced peer reviewed papers showing how what Conspiracy Theorist say is impossible is possible.

See previous comments on NIST, FEMA and mainstream journals.

-NORAD

-The FAA who saw planes which conspiracy theorist never existed.

NORAD were not involved in the operation though it may have been necessary to compromise their ability, allowing the airliners to reach their targets. Individuals in a position to do this include Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz – all PNAC members.

Everybody (well 99.9%) agrees that the FAA were tracking aircraft on 9/11. Whether these were the airliners we are told is a matter of debate though either way the FAA were not required to be involved in the operation.

-The Silverstein Group who they say got together with Bush to blow up the building for insurance money.

-Silverstein's Insurance Company who didn't question the collapse and paid out over 2 billion to Silverstein. Why? Conspiracy Theorist say the insurance company just wants to pass on the bill to the public but they already fought Silverstein in a number of law suits concerning the amount.

For sure, I think every ‘conspiracist’ has Larry Silverstein on their list.

After a dispute with the insurance companies where Silverstein attempted to claim double what he was due, he received $4.65billion which to date has not been reinvested in the WTC site. The insurance companies were not involved in the operation and would not contest the payout altogether as this would not only involve proving 9/11 was an inside job but that Silverstein had prior knowledge.

-American Airlines (Pentagon)

-United Airlines (Pentagon)

-Logan, Newark and Dulles Airport for losing the planes

The airports and airlines themselves were not required to be involved in the operation though the same company that ran elements of security at the WTC also did so for Dulles International Airport and United Airlines. Former board member of this security agency: Marvin Bush.

-Scientists and engineers who developed the remote control plane technology

-Installers of the remote control devices in the planes (Pentagon)

-Remote controllers of the planes (Pentagon)

-Scientists and engineers who developed the new demolition technology and carried out practical tests and computer models to make sure it would work.

-Installers of the demolitions devices in the three buildings

-People who detonated the buildings"

-People who worked at the company(s) the installers used as cover

Remotely controlled Boeing technology was developed by NASA in 1984. They were not a part of the 9/11 operation.

Yes, obviously individuals would need to be involved in acquiring and controlling the airliners – Israeli intelligence, perhaps in conjunction with US agencies, could be utilised here and why not? They have everything to gain and nothing to lose through 9/11.

See above regarding Israeli operatives, five of whom, as already mentioned, were detained in New York on 9/11 for celebrating the WTC attacks.

Yes, the head of Urban Moving Systems that the above Israelis were using as cover, fled back to Israeli shortly after 9/11 despite being wanted for questioning by the FBI. Any genuine staff who worked for the company were not required for the operation.

-Airphone etc employees who said they got calls from passengers (Pentagon)

-Faux friends and relatives of the faux passengers or just the faux relatives who claim to have been called by their loved ones or just the psyops who fooled relatives into thinking they really were their loved ones. (Pentagon)

-anyone who thinks the conspiracy is a diversion to take liberal activist focus off of real crimes.

-The liberals who don't believe the towers were brought down. They're helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why" No clue...

Anyone receiving phone calls were not in on the operation. The PSYOPS agents possibly involved may again have been part of Israeli intelligence.

What are you talking about? No ‘liberal activists’ were used in the operation. :hmm:

Just because an individual cannot see through the false flag operation that was 9/11 does not mean they are involved.

So what's that? At least a hundred thousand people? (probably more.) How exactly do you shut up that many people? You can't pay them all $10 million, that'd be $10 Trillion. The US GDP is only $11 Trillion. So how do you keep them from spilling the beans? How do you stop them taking the money and spilling the beans? By threatening to kill them? If so, what's to stop the same killers coming after you?

A hundred thousand??? Well actually, we probably have it down to a few dozen individuals who are a part of or affiliated with the current US Administration and then a number of additional intelligence operatives, most of whom may be from a foreign agency or agencies.

How many people were involved in the Gleiwitz incident, unconfirmed for over 6 years, which Hitler used to launch WW2?

How many people were involved in Operation Gladio, unrevealed for over 40 years, consisting of clandestine stay-behind armies created by the CIA/NATO following WW2 and attributed with carrying out terrorist attacks in member states for political gain?

How many people were involved in Air America, an American airline covertly owned and operated by the CIA for over 25 years?

Operation Ajax? The Reichstag Fire? The Mukden Incident? In the planning and implementation, how many? According to you lot the numbers involved means that none of this ever happened… but it did. ;)

Edited by Q24
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So. What your saying is G.W. Bush and his group or merry morons were smart enough to plan and carry off the attack? Hold on let me get my tin foil hat. (puts on hat) Nope. I still don't see it. The man isn't smart enough to be President.

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So. What your saying is G.W. Bush and his group or merry morons were smart enough to plan and carry off the attack? Hold on let me get my tin foil hat. (puts on hat) Nope. I still don't see it. The man isn't smart enough to be President.

So what you are saying is that perhaps after Bush's band of merry morons decided that a “new Pearl Harbor” type event was needed, they just got incredibly lucky… [Q borrows Plainbob's tinfoil hat]… Nope. I still don't see it.

In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

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Cracks me up at the number of people willing to admit George Bush is too dumb to be President, yet still defend everything.

If he's too dumb to be President, doesn't it make you wonder how and why he got nominated to become President in the first place?

It's pretty scary to think such a fool was surrounded by people that felt him worthy of running to begin with. Even scarier when you realize he won.....TWICE!

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Cracks me up at the number of people willing to admit George Bush is too dumb to be President, yet still defend everything.

If he's too dumb to be President, doesn't it make you wonder how and why he got nominated to become President in the first place?

It's pretty scary to think such a fool was surrounded by people that felt him worthy of running to begin with. Even scarier when you realize he won.....TWICE!

I'm not defending anything. Bush got the job cause daddy and his brither stole the election for him. What i find scary is that people want to blame the goverment for a attck they didn't even see comeing. What i find even scarier is there are people that underestimate a group of people that warp and twist the word of thier god. I love The Art of War. It's like a bible to me. And one of the main rules is to never underestimate your enemy. And to say that these people are not smart enough to plan and pull off this attack is a joke.

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Yes, obviously individuals would need to be involved in acquiring and controlling the airliners – Israeli intelligence, perhaps in conjunction with US agencies, could be utilised here and why not? They have everything to gain and nothing to lose through 9/11.

See above regarding Israeli operatives, five of whom, as already mentioned, were detained in New York on 9/11 for celebrating the WTC attacks.

Yes, the head of Urban Moving Systems that the above Israelis were using as cover, fled back to Israeli shortly after 9/11 despite being wanted for questioning by the FBI. Any genuine staff who worked for the company were not required for the operation.

B U N K !

You don't know the truth or ICE disposition of those cases. Stop being so deliberatley misleading.

Why don't you find ONE defended legal thesis on this conspiracy of 9-11. Just one.

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I'm not defending anything. Bush got the job cause daddy and his brither stole the election for him. What i find scary is that people want to blame the goverment for a attck they didn't even see comeing. What i find even scarier is there are people that underestimate a group of people that warp and twist the word of thier god. I love The Art of War. It's like a bible to me. And one of the main rules is to never underestimate your enemy. And to say that these people are not smart enough to plan and pull off this attack is a joke.

So you believe Bush Sr. and Jeb Bush stole the election for Bush Jr, yet you go around talking about tinfoil hats? Them stealing the election for him would be a conspiracy in itself. Don't you see how messed up that is to begin with?

Now, if they stole the election for him, what do you think the reason was for? Ya think maybe they had an agenda? Ya think maybe Bush Jr. planned all along to invade Iraq before 9/11 ever happened? Do you think just maybe 9/11 was ALLLOWED to occur because Bush Jr. and his clan of merry morons knew it would help them in gaining the support of Americans at the outset of this war which somehow became focused on Iraq and ousting Saddam Hussein instead of being focused on getting Osama Bin Laden?

You say the government didn't see the attack coming when nothing could be further from the truth. They want you to think they had no idea something like that could occur. The truth is there was plenty of information available to them that something like this was being planned.

Not only did they know terrorists planned on hijacking the planes, but they also knew they planned on targeting the WTC with those hijacked planes, along with other targets. They purposely chose to be naive about what was going on and allowed the disaster to occur.

Edited by Left Field
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So you believe Bush Sr. and Jeb Bush stole the election for Bush Jr, yet you go around talking about tinfoil hats? Them stealing the election for him would be a conspiracy in itself. Don't you see how messed up that is to begin with?

Now, if they stole the election for him, what do you think the reason was for? Ya think maybe they had an agenda? Ya think maybe Bush Jr. planned all along to invade Iraq before 9/11 ever happened? Do you think just maybe 9/11 was ALLLOWED to occur because Bush Jr. and his clan of merry morons knew it would help them in gaining the support of Americans at the outset of this war which somehow became focused on Iraq and ousting Saddam Hussein instead of being focused on getting Osama Bin Laden?

You say the government didn't see the attack coming when nothing could be further from the truth. They want you to think they had no idea something like that could occur. The truth is there was plenty of information available to them that something like this was being planned.

Not only did they know terrorists planned on hijacking the planes, but they also knew they planned on targeting the WTC with those hijacked planes, along with other targets. They purposely chose to be naive about what was going on and allowed the disaster to occur.

Man. It must be nice in your world. And yes i talk about tin foil hats, I sure your not only a customer but the president. What i find fuuny is that you people would plan the Us goverment for a attck by a group of middle eastern nut jobs. And no I don't think it was ALLOWED. No goverment would allow the deaths of a couple thousand people. And for you to sit there and say the stuff you do is a insult to the people that died on 9/11. Bush is a moron and a perfect example of whats wrong with the US electorial system. Ya need to check that tin foil hat for rips. Maybe your tin foil wallpaper isn't working well enough for you. Get some help man seriously. You people are to strange for me on this thread.

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Man. It must be nice in your world. And yes i talk about tin foil hats, I sure your not only a customer but the president. What i find fuuny is that you people would plan the Us goverment for a attck by a group of middle eastern nut jobs. And no I don't think it was ALLOWED. No goverment would allow the deaths of a couple thousand people. And for you to sit there and say the stuff you do is a insult to the people that died on 9/11. Bush is a moron and a perfect example of whats wrong with the US electorial system. Ya need to check that tin foil hat for rips. Maybe your tin foil wallpaper isn't working well enough for you. Get some help man seriously. You people are to strange for me on this thread.

I live in the same world you live in and to be honest, I'd rather not believe the government does, and has done certain things to hurt their own people and cover up their own criminal activities, but the fact is they have and still do. You are naive if you think otherwise.

You made the claim that the election was rigged, yet you want to then laugh at others for their thoughts. Don't you realize how f'cked up it is to say to yourself, "Meh, the election for who became President of the United States was rigged, but it's no big deal". Gee, what else are you willing to look past?

You probably honestly believe the government had no clue terrorists were planning on hijacking planes and flying them into buildings too, don't ya?

If you don't think governments have allowed for the deaths of their own people, then you are sadly mistaken. It happens. It's been done. History has shown and taught us this.

And lastly, please don't tell me how my thoughts on what went down on 9/11 is disrespectful to those that died. That's such a load of B.S.

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Only select individuals in the Bush Administration would need to be ‘in the know’. There is a good chance Bush himself had nothing to do with planning or implementation of the operation other than to be told “we are going to provide you with a pretext to act upon”, though I will highlight Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and any other PNAC members as main players.

Well, that was as predictable an answer as I could've envisioned.

Only select individuals in the administration would need to be in the know. God...

And the President himself wouldn't know?!

I can just see the conversation.

The Vice President, and the Secretary of Defense are sitting in the Oval Office, and they say,

"Mr President, we're gonna give you a pretext to attack Hussein. We'll work something out."

And the President says, "Oh, well geez, that'd be great. Cool!"

End of conversation.

Then, after the attacks of September 11, the President calls the Vice President from Air Force One and says, "Dang Dick, that was a hell of a great deal. That'll do it...now we git to go in there and nail that sucker! Thanks!"

Or perhaps he never realized that THAT was the pretext, and he never actually asked about it???

Maybe he still doesn't know to this day that treason was committed by his staff, and that he's complicit in the most heinous crime committed against Americans by association????

:wacko:

Christ.

Cabinet level officials tell the President of the United States that they're going to create a pretext for war with Hussein, and the President doesn't say,

"Pretext?! Pretext??? What is it, and before you tell me, how quickly can you clear out your desks and go find another job?"

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If turbs is talking about linear shaped charges or similar which can be
, then they could easily be concealed beneath the fireproofing. The thermite charges would need to be larger units though. Anyhow, selective placement, whatever the charge type, is sufficient for concealment of the controlled demolition providing that WTC security and/or maintenance was overviewed by the ‘correct’ people.

We've got the evidence of the eyewitness Bartmer that there were no explosive sounds immediately before WTC7 collapsed, so how could there have been any high explosive charges, linear, shaped, or otherwise?

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It makes me laugh how you ‘act dumb’ when it suits. You know very well that in a controlled demolition the charges may be placed throughout the building, including at high levels to break up the structure and basement levels to destroy the supports. I am asking how a charge at the roof level could pass through up to 47 levels to damage the setup possibly at ground or basement level. Yes I really do know (not think) that demolition charges go off at high levels prior to the main supports being cut low down – as can be witnessed in many conventional controlled demolitions.

Who's acting dumb? The important point is the delay of several seconds between high-up charges and low ones. Show me a single CD with this feature.

Of course… but what level and area of contribution is key. As for instance in movies where hundreds of crew are involved, the make-up artists and soundtrack composers are listed in the credits, obviously without ever getting close to having a say in the plot – they are just there to make someone else’s fiction look and sound good. ;)

Don't try to tell me how an engineering team works, I am an engineer. If you get your name on a report, you made a technical contribution, and most engineers take an interest in the final product, not just their own part.

That apart, you do not bring in high-level people from academia or outside institutions to make the tea.

The order of events is irrelevant – we don’t know if NIST really created their extreme case in the inception stage or added it afterwards. If NIST had originally ran only with the expected case and found it did not initiate collapse they would soon have increased the damage parameters until it did. Likewise, even if the severe case as we know it did not initiate collapse I have absolutely no doubt they would have cranked up the damage levels another few notches to give the desired result… and some would still be championing how the “best fit was intermediate to the plausible variations”.

If they had done it that way, they wouldn't have run the case with the less severe conditions.

As in the other thread, let’s not miss the point here that NIST’s severe case exceeded the damage to the Towers that is observable in video evidence, ie the only damage case that NIST proved to initiate collapse was undeniably an exaggeration of reality.

If any of our readers are sufficiently interested to read the long thread, they will find that I gave a detailed technical explanation of why NIST didn't need to run an intermediate case, centering on the fact that the the extra damage above the baseline case needed to initiate the collapse was the same extra damage needed for the simulation to match the observed bowing of the walls. As the bowing was observed, the damage must have been enough to initiate the collapse.

Ah, Gilsanz again. Not only has he released his own ‘paper’ that happens to be so vague and inconclusive it would be laughable if held up as evidence for the ‘official’ story, but he was also a member of FEMA’s original investigation team and is listed as one of NIST’s ‘contributors’ – he gets about a bit then and is hardly the most unbiased of sources.

So any structural engineer that actually studies the collapses is automatically to be distrusted? Who would you trust then?

Edited by flyingswan
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The FDNY were not a part of the operation and neither was there any need for them to be. There are many firefighter statements exposing the operation, including mention of the relatively small isolated fires in WTC2 and explosions prior to collapse on multiple floors.

On the other thread, you accused members of the FDNY of being CIA agents there to help the conspiracy.

NIST were tasked with determining why and how the WTC Towers collapsed after the initial airliner impacts – despite having no physical evidence in support of their conclusion, exaggerating damage levels and halting their study at the point of collapse initiation, it could be said they supplied figures to loosely meet the said objective. Therefore, ‘everyone’ in NIST did not need to be involved in a cover-up; only individuals at the top level to set and guide the preconceived conclusion.

See the above post.

Wrong. There are in fact more independent construction professionals who have spoken out against the ‘official’ story than are in favour of it. Having papers containing controversial conclusions, eg “you are being lied to”, peer reviewed for professional journal publication is unrealistic in the current political climate and comes back to issues such as government grants and the mainstream media corporations talked about above.

You've yet to establish this. I see very few structural engineers on your list, and no evidence that the members of the list are checked to see if they have the qualifications they claim.

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On the other thread, you accused members of the FDNY of being CIA agents there to help the conspiracy.

Yes, though I do not define ‘the FDNY’ as perhaps a couple of individual infiltrators assigned to WTC7.

You've yet to establish this. I see very few structural engineers on your list, and no evidence that the members of the list are checked to see if they have the qualifications they claim.

Then provide your list of independent construction professionals who support the official fairytale and prove me wrong. No? I didn’t think so.

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