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To those who believe the 911 official story


Zaus

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Zaus, I believe in this aswell. I have heard a lot about this topic about how the twin towers went down.

I know that that was all the governments little plan and for some support, people who never even met each other, overheard a government offical say, "It's time, take them down," then there they went down perfect enough not to destroy to much.

Adding more info to my point of view...

Also, if I am correct, the empire state building was once attacked this same way. Why would that building still stand, and the WTC fall?

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Morpheus actually means sleep. If you're going to use a phrase from a film to back up your idiotic ideas you could at least get the reference right.

As for this whole almost offensive 9/11 crap:

WHICH IS THE MOST LIKELY:

1. That terrorists hijaked two planes and flew them into a building

2. That a government wuold wilfully kill 3000 of its own citizens simply to declare war on a country who provides it with less that 1% of its oil.

I know which is more likely.

Stupid discussion.

Bang!

Once again, emma cuts to the chase in her impeccable fashion.

Yep...stupid discussion.

Kudos, darlin'!

:tu:

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As I said in my first post, I could go on and show how stupid almost every claim made in the thread so far is, but what would be the point - people who believe this lunacy in the first place could probably never be convinced, no matter how much evidence they see to the contrary, but what the heck, since you quoted me, I'll answer.

Have you ever seen physical objects defy the laws of physics? no.

Non-Physical objects however, are not as inclined to look real. There is a mass of evidence supporting this theory, and if it is true that this was the Elite's celebration of complete brainwashing of the people of america, then it makes perfect sense...

Actually, yes. Recently a tornado struck a town in either Kansas or Kentucky, I don't remember which since tornado's struck both states that night. In the debris over 100 yards from where the house once stood, rescue workers found what they first thought was a doll. Turned out to be a living baby with hardly a scratch on it. Also, I worked in demolitions for a while while in the Army. It's amazing what strange things can defy the laws of physics in an explosion.

You are the crazed insane lunatic who cannot see for himself what has flashed before his eyes. The only reason you even believe airplanes hit the towers is because you watched it on TV.

You watched it, you were shown impossible things, non-existent things, "evidence" was fabricated, just as even the video's were fabricated. Do you even remember the two towers LIVE shots?

Bad CGI animation and Bad Inconsistent CGI planes. Some black, some WHITE, some other off color, every video's coloration is r******ed. These are paid professional CAMERA MEN they really should know how to white balance.

Yes, I watched it, but no, I wasn't shown impossible and non-existent things. First of all, they would have needed to hire someone much better than David Copperfield to fool all of the people who saw the planes crash into the buildings live.

As far as the bad camera work, you need to use a little bit of common sense here. I in no way claim to be a professional, but I do make a little money on the side doing some amatuer photography, mostly of kids at sporting events. No cameraman, amatuer or professional, was there that day to take pictures of a plane crashing into a building. They were there taking shots of a building burning that had already been hit. While doing that, they happened to catch the second plane hitting the other tower. In other words, they were focused on a basically still, long distance shot. If they had been planning on taking shots with the intense movement and crashing of another plane, the camera settings would need to be much different for the best shot. THIS WAS NOT THE EXPECTATION!

Also, the shots showing pixellation and other bad camera effects around the plane are all enlargements, to get a better view of the plane. This will always cause quality problems. In fact, if the images were clearer, I'd be more apt to believe they were fake.

3000 people see a bomb go off, and no plane. atleast 1 billion people are fooled into thinking it was planes... Which do you REALLY think the truth is? Keep in mind the "vaporized" plane in shanksville. The evidence against one hijacker was ON THE STREET AFTER THE EXPLOSION... and the hijacker WAS ALIVE... HE WAS ALIVE... HE DIDN'T DO ISHT. Keep also in mind the obvious disinfo tactic from the beginning, the "military plane" with no windows Then keep in mind you are expected to believe on top of all of this, with vast amounts of missing evidence, that 3 steel buildings(they are made with airplane collision in mind, and can probably take 3-4 impacts) that burned for 4 hours each begin an "initiation of collapse" followed by "global collapse".

Wow, that number gets bigger almost every time I see it. Amazing that 3000 people, almost as many who died, in a rush to get out of a flaming building, would have actually seen a bomb large enough to bring down the building, and not be killed by it. OK, I jest. I'm sure you meant to say these people heard something that sounded like a bomb, rather than actually seeing it. As I said before, I was in the military a few years back. When scared and in danger, even well trained people can hear things that sound like things that aren't there. Have you ever seen a fire on any scale? Things tend to pop, even if it is just trash burning in a barrel. On the scale of the fire in those buildings, many things could have easily sounded like bombs. Imaginations would have been running wild with the people trying to get out. Even people who weren't in there were worrying about bombs everywhere from the Statue of Liberty, to the Sears Tower in Chicago, to the Golden Gate Bridge.

The bit about the hijacker still being alive isn't even still brought up by most skeptics, for reasons shown exhaustively earlier in the thread. Even if what you claimed was true, that would mean they only had one name wrong. That would mean they had 18 out of 19 correct, which would actually be a pretty good success rate for normal government intelligence.

As far as the buildings being made with airplane collision in mind, they didn't have in mind large passenger planes fully loaded with fuel being aimed at the buildings on purpose, not to mention that the designs couldn't have been tested for this extreme of a situation.

WHAT ARE YOU BASING YOUR BELIEFS OFF OF?!?!?!

Simple logic and reason, not fear and paranoia. I haven't yet read the related threads, but people who believe this strike me as the kind of individuals that don't believe we landed on the moon, don't believe holecost ever happpened, and might even be members of the Flat Earth Society. I would thing it was funny, except for the fact that it belittles the lives of the thousands of innocent people who died on that horrible day.

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Sorry, ran out of time to post and hit the wrong button.

Edited by Wamboid
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the whole 911 thing was either directly carried out by the US government or they had prior knowledge and simply did nothing (the only 2 ways it went down)

also the entire official story is a lie and most people don't wanna swallow that no matter how much proof there is out there, every one is brainwashed by the corporate media (keep buying the products and the lies, stay enslaved)

911 allowed the War to happen and to continue as well as perpetuating racism and fear, further more I can't help but see the direct parallels between Hitler's rise to power and war and Mr BUsh Jrs (Hitler was not elected but eventually took power, Bush lost the election in florida and still became Pres-- the Nazis had the Richstage fire and the US had 911 both were self inflicted and they were both quick to follow up with the finger pointing-- Hitler repealed Habeas Corpus and BUsh brought in the Patriot Act among other things taking away rights from the American people supposedly to protect them---- also if you look into secret societies you will see that the Skull and Bones society that the Bush family and others are involved in share many of the same ideals, traditions and symbols as the Nazis)

(sorry if this is incoherent, I am currently at work)

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the whole 911 thing was either directly carried out by the US government or they had prior knowledge and simply did nothing (the only 2 ways it went down)

There is no doubt they had prior knowledge.

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The Patriot Act is ridiculous. It was brought about as a way of preventing another 9/11 - which is a joke in the first place because they already had plenty of information about what was coming in the form of a terrorist attack that occurred on 9/11 without the need of a Patriot Act.

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Morpheus actually means sleep. If you're going to use a phrase from a film to back up your idiotic ideas you could at least get the reference right.

It has even more references than that cmon now.

As for this whole almost offensive 9/11 crap:

WHICH IS THE MOST LIKELY:

1. That terrorists hijaked two planes and flew them into a building

2. That a government wuold wilfully kill 3000 of its own citizens simply to declare war on a country who provides it with less that 1% of its oil.

I know which is more likely.

Stupid discussion.

1 How could you believe that a plane that took down the WTC towers could suddenly unveil 2 unscathed passports as "proof"?[/url]

Do you buy EVERYTHING they want you to swallow??!?

2

There was a piece i saw on the history channel a while back that i cant find online. It was about the veterans protesting in DC after the vietnam war. After several days with thousands of protesters veteran and civilian alike, they decided to get them out by starting a riot and killing hundreds of people.

DC is not a part of the USA, it is a country unto itself, and acts out of the bounds of the constitution and civilian rights. BTW Governments have been killing and enslaving their people for thousands of years...

Not to mention we put hussien in power as a dictator, and took him out as an "act of freedom". BS...

They did have flight training, they went to flight schools. Their membership and hours are all logged at those flight schools

Right....

Or so you have been told...

Bang!

Once again, emma cuts to the chase in her impeccable fashion.

Yep...stupid discussion.

Kudos, darlin'!

And the sheep follow the lead...

And then... the holy warrior of "reason" and "logic" rears his head...

As I said in my first post, I could go on and show how stupid almost every claim made in the thread so far is, but what would be the point - people who believe this lunacy in the first place could probably never be convinced, no matter how much evidence they see to the contrary, but what the heck, since you quoted me, I'll answer.

uh-huh...

Actually, yes. Recently a tornado struck a town in either Kansas or Kentucky, I don't remember which since tornado's struck both states that night. In the debris over 100 yards from where the house once stood, rescue workers found what they first thought was a doll. Turned out to be a living baby with hardly a scratch on it. Also, I worked in demolitions for a while while in the Army. It's amazing what strange things can defy the laws of physics in an explosion.

Ok? What??

Yes, I watched it, but no, I wasn't shown impossible and non-existent things. First of all, they would have needed to hire someone much better than David Copperfield to fool all of the people who saw the planes crash into the buildings live.

pre-recorded crappy video's are not hard... and post recorded video's are not hard either. Ya'know whats hard? NEWTON. According to newtons third law...

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.

action = heavy plane moving at 400+ MPH

reaction = assertion of 500,000 tons, or, 1 million pounds, this value does not include the concrete weight or the floor's etc, this is strictly the HIGH GRADE steel MESH supposed plane cut like a hot knife through butter.

Planes CRASH AGAINST THINGS. This was not A GLASS BUILDING.

As far as the bad camera work, you need to use a little bit of common sense here. I in no way claim to be a professional, but I do make a little money on the side doing some amatuer photography, mostly of kids at sporting events. No cameraman, amatuer or professional, was there that day to take pictures of a plane crashing into a building. They were there taking shots of a building burning that had already been hit. While doing that, they happened to catch the second plane hitting the other tower. In other words, they were focused on a basically still, long distance shot. If they had been planning on taking shots with the intense movement and crashing of another plane, the camera settings would need to be much different for the best shot. THIS WAS NOT THE EXPECTATION!

Also, the shots showing pixellation and other bad camera effects around the plane are all enlargements, to get a better view of the plane. This will always cause quality problems. In fact, if the images were clearer, I'd be more apt to believe they were fake.

Really, then why arent you in arms about the pentagon video's? they didnt release them for like 4 months, and there ARE camera's at the pentagon... they havent EVER been released.

Wow, that number gets bigger almost every time I see it. Amazing that 3000 people, almost as many who died, in a rush to get out of a flaming building, would have actually seen a bomb large enough to bring down the building, and not be killed by it. OK, I jest. I'm sure you meant to say these people heard something that sounded like a bomb, rather than actually seeing it. As I said before, I was in the military a few years back. When scared and in danger, even well trained people can hear things that sound like things that aren't there. Have you ever seen a fire on any scale? Things tend to pop, even if it is just trash burning in a barrel. On the scale of the fire in those buildings, many things could have easily sounded like bombs. Imaginations would have been running wild with the people trying to get out. Even people who weren't in there were worrying about bombs everywhere from the Statue of Liberty, to the Sears Tower in Chicago, to the Golden Gate Bridge.

The Naive...

The bit about the hijacker still being alive isn't even still brought up by most skeptics, for reasons shown exhaustively earlier in the thread. Even if what you claimed was true, that would mean they only had one name wrong. That would mean they had 18 out of 19 correct, which would actually be a pretty good success rate for normal government intelligence.

ROFL, i gave a link did i not?

But even though the passport and the ID card had a snow ball's chance in hell of surviving the WTC and Pentagon meltdown, ABC News and the Associated Press quickly jumped on the story, with accounts running on September 12 and 16 of 2001, telling America essentially the passport discovery was proof positive Osama bin Laden's gang outfoxed the mighty U.S. military.

In fact, whether the FBI/CIA actually planted the evidence never has been thoroughly questioned or investigated by the state sponsored press, perpetuating even further the incredible lies surfacing about the credulity of the official 9/11 story.

Besides the passport, numerous other accounts of suspicious evidence have conveniently surfaced linking the alleged hijackers to 9/11, including two of Mohamed Atta's bags also found right after 9/11.

Not only did authorities find the bags but they conveniently contained a handheld electronic flight computer, a simulator procedures manual for Boeing 757 and 767 aircraft, two videotapes relating to "air tours" of the Boeing 757 and 747 aircraft, a slide-rule flight calculator, a copy of the Koran, Atta's passport, his will, his international driver's license, a religious cassette tape, airline uniforms, a letter of recommendation, "education related documentation" and a note to other hijackers on how to mentally prepare for the hijacking.

As far as the buildings being made with airplane collision in mind, they didn't have in mind large passenger planes fully loaded with fuel being aimed at the buildings on purpose, not to mention that the designs couldn't have been tested for this extreme of a situation.

They were expected to take on several 707's, the largest planes at the time, 757 67 77 w/e are not really that much larger.

Simple logic and reason, not fear and paranoia. I haven't yet read the related threads, but people who believe this strike me as the kind of individuals that don't believe we landed on the moon, don't believe holecost ever happpened, and might even be members of the Flat Earth Society. I would thing it was funny, except for the fact that it belittles the lives of the thousands of innocent people who died on that horrible day.

if i am afraid, it is because you are still stuck in a place where you will serve our dark overlords unknowingly and willfully as if it was "truth" and "reason" that you are standing up for...

Along with everyone else fooled time and time again by the mainstream media and associating government conspiracy as "poppycock".

At this rate we will argue about 911 until fema is busting through our doors to drag us away to concentration camps and underground bases.

"forgive them lord, for they know not what they do"

BTW KJV 1611, written by a mason.

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Zaus, you are SO out to lunch that you make Turbonium look sane and rational... :rolleyes:

Cz

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People question whether a government would allow something disastrous to happen as if it hasn't taken place before. I guess we've already forgotten about the likes of Hitler and Hussein, among many others.

Not to mention the mind control experiments done unknowingly on their own civilians.

Had the Holocaust not taken place, I would have thought that impossible as well, but it still happened did it not?

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The article by Gravy is crap? The you will have no problem showing where is is wrong... Right?

There are so many problems, that it would require an entirely separate thread to go over them all. But here are a few examples...

Under the heading "Part 1: A Summary of William Rodriguez's Statements and Claims", two "claims" made by Rodriguez...

"I’m the last survivor pulled from the rubble." "I saved hundreds of people."

Below these linked quotes, Roberts says.."These claims are false. Rodriguez's story is dramatic enough and needs no embellishment.

The reader is encouraged to click on the links "for much more information". So what do we find?

"last survivor pulled from the rubble"

Roberts concedes that Rodriguez "was likely the last person to leave the north tower before it collapsed. He was pulled from the rubble approximately two hours later." But Roberts then notes that someone else "was pulled from the rubble more than a day after Rodriguez escaped", and so he calls Rodriguez' statement "false" and an "embellishment".

Roberts is purely trying to nitpick - Rodriguez was the last person out of the tower, and one of the last people pulled out of the rubble. What Roberts doesn't realize is that if Rodriguez wanted to "embellish" his heroics, then he would only have "boasted" about being the last one out of the building!

Saved hundreds of lives

Roberts cites two comments from Rodriguez's website...

“On 9/11, Rodriguez single-handedly rescued fifteen (15) persons from the WTC, and as Rodriguez was the only person at the site with the master key to the North Tower stairwells, he bravely led firefighters up the stairwell, unlocking doors as they ascended, thereby aiding in the successful evacuation of unknown hundreds of those who survived.”

"The last man out of the North Tower who in the North Tower saved hundreds of lives, but the 9/11 Commission and the Major Media hid his revealing testimony from YOU, the American people!"

Roberts then says...

"While his actions on 9/11 are deserving of all praise, I am not aware of William Rodriguez single-handedly rescuing anyone, much less hundreds of people. Again, Rodriguez’s story needs no embellishment. He helped the badly-burned Felipe David to an ambulance. While doing so, the 14 people who were with him in the basement office also fled to safety through the loading dock area to Vesey Street. It is unlikely that they would have remained in the basement for an hour and forty minutes until the building collapsed. Rodriguez and a co-worker rescued two men from an elevator that was stuck between the B-2 and B-3 levels. On his way up the stairs he found a woman on the 33rd floor who didn’t know what to do and sent her down the stairwell with the evacuees (Rodriguez says that she was killed by falling debris outside). Based on his stories, that’s perhaps the closest example of him single-handedly saving someone that I can think of."

What nonsense...

"I am not aware of William Rodriguez single-handedly rescuing anyone" - Apparently, Roberts would like us to believe that helping someone half-burned to death out of the building and to an ambulance isn't "single-handedly rescuing anyone"!!

"much less hundreds of people" - This comment is pure crap! Rodriguez never claimed to have "single-handedly" rescued "hundreds of people", but Roberts is implying that he did. Smear tactic.

Varying claims of lives saved

Shocking! Roberts cites various articles which differ in numbers, as if Rodriguez is personally responsible for this.

What Roberts doesn't mention is that the different numbers were written by the authors of the articles!

This is just scratching the surface of all the crap written by Roberts in his article.

Edited by turbonium
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Yes, hilarious, but that's the sort of thing that would be happening with your scenario, unless they replaced the entire maintenance staff with conspirators in one go.

That's one way to do it, but it's hardly the only way. They could simply re-assign them to other duties, and/or only let them go into areas which aren't sensitive, to potentially compromise the operation.

I did. You appear to believe that CD experts would be all over a CD site without recognising it for what it was. More hilarity.

Just like they watched WTC 7 collapse without recognizing it for what it was?

That's beyond hilarious. It's prepostorous.

The debris was NOT being inspected at Ground Zero. Period. Even if the "CD experts" onsite - who were actually the clean-up crews - had spotted clues of a CD (such as residue) - they weren't setting any steel aside for inspection, regardless of condition. They would have also recognized any fire-damaged steel, but they didn't set any of that aside, either. Or mention that they "recognized" any such steel in the debris.

Link? On second thoughts, don't bother. The last thing I need is more of your warped view of how the world works. Page after page of the Apollo dust argument was bad enough.

If you truly want a warped view, then Roberts' article is right up your alley.

Is that a no?

AFAIK, it's the only source for the complete info. A paper should be coming out soon.

Now it's up to you to look at the video.

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What did I say in my previous post? Oh yeah "Anyone from the official story standpoint could spend a lot of time and effort analysing the graphs, present their finding to you just for you to then say 'Nah, my explaination is better'." Admittedly it's not like I spent a lot of time and effort, but that's pretty much why.

I didn’t say, “Nah, my explanation is better”, I gave reason as to why I find the seismic readings to be better explained by specific events than by chance – it’s called ‘debating’. As interesting as different viewpoints are, I do not accept them without grounds.

If your flat point coincides with the end of the top of the building collapsing and the start of the main collapse then why would there have to be a number of flat points, why would the flat point have to be random coincidence? The top of the building collapses and produces a rumble, the main building is overcome by the weight of the top, starts to stress and collapses. The flat point represents interference between two actions - the rumble of the top of the building and the rumble of the start of the rest of the building collapse - which explains why it appears on both graphs. I'm not saying this intepretation is correct, but it is an interpretation that's just as right/wrong/provable/unprovable as yours.

Now, I know you don’t like me doing this ‘debating’ thing but I must point out a large problem with the above. In the ‘natural’ progressive collapse that the official story would have us believe, it is the full weight of the upper block that crushes the lower structure. It does not make sense that the lower structure starts to collapse only after the upper block has fallen through its own height, and indeed in video evidence you will see this is not what happened.

You're looking at the graphs, finding certain peaks where you can make up a story to fit your CD view and waving away other parts.

I did not decide, “Right ok, we have a controlled demolition here so I must find seismic readings I can interpret as that” and proceed to find any spike/peak I could, “Aha, explosives!”

I found a distinct increase in activity during the collapses following a distinct point of reduced activity shown in the seismograph that coincides with events in video evidence. I asked the question, “Why do the seismic readings show this?” I did not expect it to, but it does happen that the data fits with my controlled demolition process but not a progressive collapse.

A fine display of arrogance and ego there.

With respect, I see a graph showing seismic activity over the duration of the collapses and regard it as a scientific record; important evidence… you see “wobbly lines”.

The NTSB has released flight paths for each of the flights. Although all the information is not given, we could basically interpret that evidence to indicate times at a given location, angles of turns and average speed travelled between points. I can imagine you would look on aghast as I am not a trained air traffic controller.

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What don't you understand about "reading more into the graph than is actually there"? You cannot pick out individual swings and link them to specific events. All you can do is take the amplitude averaged over several swings.

This is what I do not understand about your assertion: -

  • You said, “Your lines seem reasonable”, therefore accepting that specific moments in collapse, marked by specific changes in seismic data, can be picked out in the seismograph.
  • The collapse initiations, indicated by increased activity, can be seen in the data.
  • The fall of the upper blocks, indicated by a continuation of activity levels, can be seen in the data.
  • The calm points coincide where the upper blocks have fallen through their height in the data.
  • The remaining duration of the collapses, indicated by increased activity, can be seen in the data.
  • The first lighter debris impacting the ground, indicated by disturbance (or not so clean lines), can be seen in the data.
  • The main debris field impacting the ground, indicated by greater activity, can be seen in the data.
These are definitive characteristics of the building collapse that coincide with definitive readings on the seismograph. A seismometer records seismic activity at a given point in time; it does not randomly generate a reading.

If none of the above is the case, which is what you seem to be inferring, I would be absolutely amazed at the sheer low probability of the seismic readings randomly occurring at the points they do – not for just one Tower; but for two.

Your question: What don’t you understand about “the readings all coincide with specific visible features of the building collapses”?

This means that all you can get out of the graph is a gradual build-up as the building collapses, then a big increase as pieces hit the ground.

Interesting you should say that, as in a ‘natural’ collapse that is exactly what I would expect to see – a gradual increase in activity of progressively shorter cycles as the momentum of collapse builds, followed by the debris impacts.

What we actually have for each Tower, is continuous activity as the upper block falls, a calm point which specifically coincides with the end of that fall, followed by a step change of increased activity. In fact, the end of the WTC1 collapse coincides with activity reduced back to levels of the upper block fall. This reduced activity is not visible in the seismic data for the WTC2 collapse as debris reaches the ground sooner.

Have you actually looked in detail at the seismic data, comparing it to video evidence?

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CD is the only possibility really, the buildings fell at freefall speed (pancake theory is bull) also the buildings were only on "fire" for like an hour, not that the fires were raging after the jet fuel was burned off they were just smoking pretty much

2 planes disappear without a trace of rubble or passengers or luggage, plus that one plane at the pentagon must have lost its wings before it hit cause the hole that was left was pretty damn small (no room for the turbines which should have blow right through even harder than the fuselage)

building 7 is rarely discussed and the owner Larry silverstein admitted that WTC7 was a controlled demolition (bombs must have already been in the building, cause they didn't have time to set up the CD)

also Silverstein made a buttload of money from insurance as he just opened a new contract (90 years or something) and the greedy F'er even tried to claim the collapses as 2 separate acts of terrorism

furthermore you have to wonder why the debris was cleaned up right away, this is illegal I mean If you really believe the buildings were so weak that they could simply collapse so easily then don't you think they should have investigated why and how this happened in order to avoid it in the future

people have trouble beleiving that their Govenment could do this to their own people but look into Opertation North Woods

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Now, I know you don’t like me doing this ‘debating’ thing but I must point out a large problem with the above. In the ‘natural’ progressive collapse that the official story would have us believe, it is the full weight of the upper block that crushes the lower structure. It does not make sense that the lower structure starts to collapse only after the upper block has fallen through its own height, and indeed in video evidence you will see this is not what happened.

I didn't say the lower structure starts to collapse only after the upper block has fallen through its own height, I said it was interference between the two happening. No one know the exact details of what was happening - your own timings are based on YouTube videos where you really can't see very much at all, so are approximate. The points you've marked out on the graph are your own guess work and you can fit them where you want to best suit your theory (like the way one of your start points is marked right at the start of the range of 'natural' peaks, the other is marked at a flat point half a second of so before the 'natural' peaks). Add in a bit of flex and you can have the top of the building collapse halfway though it's length and the rest of the building starts to collapse (small effect at first, not really interfering with the top of building peaks, then collapsing fully, causing 1-2 seconds of inteference you think are a flat point).

Of course, given neither of us know what a seismogram of a natural building collapse or a building collapsing with the help of explosives looks like, both of us could be completely wrong and a third, or fourth, or fifth interpretation could be correct...

With respect, I see a graph showing seismic activity over the duration of the collapses and regard it as a scientific record; important evidence… you see “wobbly lines”.

What - that's your reason for your superiority? The fact I used the phrase 'wobbly lines'? You, me and everyone else reading this thread knows exactly what the graph is and what it represents. If you're seriously trying to say you believed otherwise that's more a comment about you than me. I said at the time "...you're perfectly capable of reading into those wobbly lines whatever you want to, but ultimately it means no more than any other person with no training or expertise saying that that's exactly what they would expect the building collapse to look like without CD." Now, you can be indignant as you want but that doesn't change that being correct. You think the graph is proof of explosives, I think the graph neither proves nor disproves explosives. Much as you deem yourself superior and believe your own interpretation more, both our interpretations have equal value.

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Zaus, you are SO out to lunch that you make Turbonium look sane and rational... :rolleyes:

That probably summed up my sentiments better than I can write, but what the heck, I’ll respond again.

uh-huh...

Glad to see you at least agree with me that no matter how much evidence you see to the contrary, you will never be convinced that you are wrong. I’m at least open-minded about the possibility of some kind of government cover-up, but the claims in this thread about the planes crashing into the towers being fake and it not even being possible for the terrorists to take over the planes goes way too deep into the world of paranoid delusion.

pre-recorded crappy video's are not hard... and post recorded video's are not hard either. Ya'know whats hard? NEWTON. According to newtons third law...

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.

action = heavy plane moving at 400+ MPH

reaction = assertion of 500,000 tons, or, 1 million pounds, this value does not include the concrete weight or the floor's etc, this is strictly the HIGH GRADE steel MESH supposed plane cut like a hot knife through butter.

Planes CRASH AGAINST THINGS. This was not A GLASS BUILDING.

Yes, video’s are easy to fake, but you know what’s even easier? Watching live footage and listening to the people who were eye witnesses to the planes crashing. Also, Newton’s third law isn’t hard to understand either. That was a nice little physics lesson you gave. Maybe it would help if you went back and read it very slowly right now. Since it is in your own words, maybe you will understand it. After that, go back and watch the footage again. The law that you described so eloquently was followed precisely:

Action = heavy plane moving at 400+MPH crashes into building

Reaction = big, strong, well designed building absorbs much of the collision, and much debris/smoke/etc. comes flying out the opposite side of the building, along with starting a huge fire inside the building fed by jet fuel.

Notice, that reaction didn’t include any “HIGH GRADE steel MESH supposed plane cut like a hot knife through butter,” otherwise the law would have been broken when the building didn’t come tumbling down immediately. The resulting explosion and fire actually starts another action/reaction pair.

Action = fire described above burns for hours

Reaction = Integrity of high grade steel girded building deteriorates to the point of collapse.

Actually, several more action/reaction pairs occurred as each floor collapsed onto the next, as the video clearly shows. So, thanks for the physics lesson, just be a bit more careful about applying it correctly to any given situation.

Really, then why arent you in arms about the pentagon video's? they didnt release them for like 4 months, and there ARE camera's at the pentagon... they havent EVER been released.

I’m not at all upset about not seeing any pentagon videos. I was up in arms over the live video coming live from the front in both Gulf Wars. No need for our enemies to pursue any normal military intelligence channels when all you have to do is turn on CNN. Any film the pentagon has would have been gained from cameras meant for security, whether for actual pentagon physical security or trained on suspected counter-intelligence locations. Either way, showing that footage could result in result in revealing part of the security measures at one of the most important buildings in the country in terms of national security. That would be almost as stupid as the theories in this thread.

ROFL, i gave a link did i not?

Concerning terrorists still being alive, yes you did. As I said, that was thoroughly covered earlier, but I’ll rehash it since you insist. The link you provided was to a BBC article that came out within days of the attack, when only names had been released without photos. A link which also linked its sources was provided to you showing how foolish that was (remember laughing at the Jim Brown analogy). One of those sources was even the BBC, stating that the article it printed earlier was wrong.

But even though the passport and the ID card had a snow ball's chance in hell of surviving the WTC and Pentagon meltdown, ABC News and the Associated Press quickly jumped on the story, with accounts running on September 12 and 16 of 2001, telling America essentially the passport discovery was proof positive Osama bin Laden's gang outfoxed the mighty U.S. military.

A snowballs chance in hell, just like the baby in the story I told that you didn’t seem to understand.

In fact, whether the FBI/CIA actually planted the evidence never has been thoroughly questioned or investigated by the state sponsored press, perpetuating even further the incredible lies surfacing about the credulity of the official 9/11 story.

Get real, a state sponsored press would have been squashed flat long ago for all the times they have made fun of and questioned our current president.

Besides the passport, numerous other accounts of suspicious evidence have conveniently surfaced linking the alleged hijackers to 9/11, including two of Mohamed Atta's bags also found right after 9/11.

Not only did authorities find the bags but they conveniently contained a handheld electronic flight computer, a simulator procedures manual for Boeing 757 and 767 aircraft, two videotapes relating to "air tours" of the Boeing 757 and 747 aircraft, a slide-rule flight calculator, a copy of the Koran, Atta's passport, his will, his international driver's license, a religious cassette tape, airline uniforms, a letter of recommendation, "education related documentation" and a note to other hijackers on how to mentally prepare for the hijacking.

I’m confused, exactly what would you expect them to find, special Playboy magazines with pictures of 72 naked virgins?

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Zaus, you are SO out to lunch that you make Turbonium look sane and rational... :rolleyes:

Unlike Czero, who makes Charles Manson look sane and rational..linked-image

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The Egyptian Lightbulb, infact it was massive, and had NO WIRES...

There is only one way i know of that can do this, but then again the pyramids of giza were giant calendars, clocks, pinpoints the sun, moon, and itself on the surface,

And, they are also perfectly aligned to the equator.

... Uh huh... This has what to do with 9/11?

Now do you understand why you know nothing? Because until you understand that(as every great thinking man has always said) the more you know, the more things you can be sure you have no clue about.

I have an MFA, a condo with a golf course for a back yard, 3 cats, 2 motorcycles, and a fiancee who has an MFA also, that says I know something. Then again this has noting to do with 9/11 either. What's your point?

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... Uh huh... This has what to do with 9/11?

Well, not that it matters, but my point is that ancient cultures were far in advance of our own, and were capable of travel beyond the physical, and through the physical.

There are REAL CARVINGS, in REAL TEMPLE'S, showing everything from lightbulb(with no wires)'s, to helicopters, to spaceships, and more. Im sure i dont have to link this, because you can google "egyptian lightbulb" and find out all about it, in fact i believe it was a national geographic article i read about this the first time.

That having been said, it should be fairly obvious that along the way this knowledge was "lost", but it never was. It was simply kept away from the mass populace, and with the advent of television, hollywood, the music industry, and finally mass media the brainwashing became so effective that on 911(a day that screams "help!" and within even the way it is written you can see the 2 towers...) the project had reached completion and the elite knew it would be simple as pie to direct the people's attention to any adversary of their choosing, which happens to be Afghanistan(opium), Iraq(oil), and Iran(oil).

I have an MFA, a condo with a golf course for a back yard, 3 cats, 2 motorcycles, and a fiancee who has an MFA also, that says I know something. Then again this has noting to do with 9/11 either. What's your point?

My lord, living the "american dream" eh? Tell me, will any of that help you live longer? Does it make you "feel" important? Does it mean that you know everything there is to know? Does it mean that you know more than I do?

Does all this property and money make you smarter or "set you free"?

No, it does not, because enlightenment only comes from one place, and that is the self. Not the day-to-day psychologically molded conciousness that speaks to you(that would be the ego, and the super-ego), but your entire body itself.

A perfect example: Any physical or emotional trauma you experience becomes a part of you whether you like it or not. If you cut your hand, or get beat up, or burned, etc, your body will react completely separately from your consciousness and heal the wound. You didn't tell you body to do it, and in all reality almost noone even realizes how amazing this is, trillions of biological organisms keeping themselves on task FOR YOU.

The processes are all controlled by your brain, but your ego is completely unaware, because the ego is only a small surface fraction of the true self beneath.

Here about 1/3 down the page you will see the freudian/jungian description of consciousness. You will see the ego, super-ego, and persona(or personal mask) on the outside, and the self smack dab in the center.

What does this mean and how does it connect to 911?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!?

You, are the component on which our government can get away with anything. If you will not have an open mind what do you think will happen? You will live in your closed mind for the rest of your life, and then, if you have children you will raise them to live the same, and in the end nothing will result other than the proliferation of the same system that got us into this mess...

Things have gotten so bad that the government is now fronted by a r******ed (and I use that word in a technical sense) clown, who everyone treats as if he were a real President (the worst lie to yourself is when you have to pretend that the obvious idiot who leads you is entitled to do so). The lies are so deeply ingrained into American thought that the vast majority of the population apparently is incapable of seeing that there is anything wrong, meaning that there is no possibility of change."

And i think ill end it with some system of a down lyrics our illuminati overlords are constantly taunting us with as "alternative rock" yay!

The song: Violent Pornography

Everybody, everybody, everybody livin' now.

Everybody, everybody, everybody (FBOMB)

Everybody, everybody, everybody livin' now.

Everybody, everybody, everybody sucks.

Everybody, everybody, everybody livin' now.

Everybody, everybody, everybody cries

Everybody, everybody, everybody livin' now.

Everybody, everybody, everybody dies.

It's a non-stop disco

Bet you it's Nabisco,

Bet you didn't know.

It's a violent pornography

Choking chicks and sodomy

The kinda ISHT you get on your TV

It's on the TV.

It's on your TV.

Turn off your TV.

Can you say brainwashing?

It's a non-stop disco.

It means that the media mainly only uses "Violence" and "Sex" to appeal to people. Which is how they came up with the metaphor that TV is just simply "Violent Pornography".

and i havent even touched on the subliminal messages.

Question: Is it any wonder "sublime" is essentially the working mans anthem?

ignorance = bliss.

Action = heavy plane moving at 400+MPH crashes into building

Reaction = big, strong, well designed building absorbs much of the collision, and much debris/smoke/etc. comes flying out the opposite side of the building, along with starting a huge fire inside the building fed by jet fuel.

... ... ... ...

Action: heavy plane at 400+ crashes THROUGH 6 FLOORS OF REINFORCED STEEL AND CONCRETE LIKE A HOT KNIFE THROUGH BUTTER.

Reaction: ... ... ... NONE.

seriously... im talking about the moment of impact SPECIFICALLY, and i cannot believe you are trying to use the argument that the "opposite" side of the building is the opposing force that SHOULD have been there. This just goes to show how degraded education is today... i guess you have to do that in order for it to work eh?

Action = fire described above burns for hours

Reaction = Integrity of high grade steel girded building deteriorates to the point of collapse.

maybe in your twisted world... but truth doesn't play favorites.

A snowballs chance in hell, just like the baby in the story I told that you didn’t seem to understand.

Fire... Explosion... PAPER.

I’m confused, exactly what would you expect them to find, special Playboy magazines with pictures of 72 naked virgins?

There are no stupid questions here, only stupid... answers.

Being thereby decreed, that way too much evidence was found in a trashcan in a hotel...

Edited by Zaus
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Don't bother with these people, they're much happier believing a few primitive **** ****** muslims armed with sticks with no flight training magically stole a couple of planes and flew them off course without USA fighter intervention. Then of course the CIA magically produces the identity of these hijackers out of the evaporated ashes of their remains. Then of course we have to retaliate by attacking a country that had nothing to do with it, with all those nasty invisible WMD's, and conveniently with all that delicious rich oil. Makes sense.

And there you have it in essence. Some people just can't accept that. quote '**** ****** muslims' could outwit the U.S of A security establishment....get used to it.

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I didn't say the lower structure starts to collapse only after the upper block has fallen through its own height, I said it was interference between the two happening.

The 'two' being the falling of the upper block and crushing of the lower block? Then why oh why, with the upper block crushing the lower block throughout the collapse, would the calm point occur specifically in only the moment the upper block has fallen through its own height? I don't buy this whole two events cancelling each other out in a building collapse in any case. As an analogy, it's like drawing a line in pencil and tracing over it in permenant marker - the greater impression will show up on the paper. At the point the seismograph is saying there is reduced activity I think it is sensible to accept exactly that - reduced activity - rather than making up a theory just to fit with and excuse the official story.

No one know the exact details of what was happening - your own timings are based on YouTube videos where you really can't see very much at all, so are approximate. The points you've marked out on the graph are your own guess work and you can fit them where you want to best suit your theory (like the way one of your start points is marked right at the start of the range of 'natural' peaks, the other is marked at a flat point half a second of so before the 'natural' peaks).

The videos are not at all ideal but I believe my timings are correct certainly to within +/- 1 second. The reason the line for WTC2 was marked half a second before the ‘natural’ peaks is because with the tilting movement it seems to take longer to begin moving downward than the upper block in WTC1. If we did move that line half a second forward in the seismograph it barely makes any difference to anything.

Of course, given neither of us know what a seismogram of a natural building collapse or a building collapsing with the help of explosives looks like, both of us could be completely wrong and a third, or fourth, or fifth interpretation could be correct...

Actually, if you read my last post to flyingswan, it appears we both know what a ‘natural’ progressive collapse should look like.

You think the graph is proof of explosives, I think the graph neither proves nor disproves explosives. Much as you deem yourself superior and believe your own interpretation more, both our interpretations have equal value.

I don’t say the seismic data proves explosives, though it is supportive; corresponding perfectly with my controlled demolition theory and being very difficult to explain in relation to the official story.

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And there you have it in essence. Some people just can't accept that. quote '**** ****** muslims' could outwit the U.S of A security establishment....get used to it.

Well, that's the thing - they didn't outwit the US government. The government knew such an attack was being planned and didn't act. 9/11 happens and whattdya know - George Bush spins it into reason to attack Iraq while Osama Bin Laden can't possibly be found. :rolleyes:

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This is what I do not understand about your assertion: -

  • You said, “Your lines seem reasonable”, therefore accepting that specific moments in collapse, marked by specific changes in seismic data, can be picked out in the seismograph.
  • The collapse initiations, indicated by increased activity, can be seen in the data.
  • The fall of the upper blocks, indicated by a continuation of activity levels, can be seen in the data.
  • The calm points coincide where the upper blocks have fallen through their height in the data.
  • The remaining duration of the collapses, indicated by increased activity, can be seen in the data.
  • The first lighter debris impacting the ground, indicated by disturbance (or not so clean lines), can be seen in the data.
  • The main debris field impacting the ground, indicated by greater activity, can be seen in the data.
These are definitive characteristics of the building collapse that coincide with definitive readings on the seismograph. A seismometer records seismic activity at a given point in time; it does not randomly generate a reading.

I think your lines are in the right place because they mark where activity starts, and this is something you can see in the graphs. However, the fine detail you are trying to use to fit the rest of your theory, "calm points", etc, is not what you think it is for the reasons I have given. The data you are trying to extract from the graphs is just not there to be extracted.

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